HE MSU at ANUWTF - Summary

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Game 4 - updated 28.05

#61 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

My apologies for the delay. Here is the report from the last game of the local tournament:

Game 5 - Charles - Warriors of Chaos - Battle for the Pass

In my last game I played against Charles who is a veteran of Warhammer. He used to win tournaments a decade ago and he wrote this excellent article everybody should read:

http://www.irresistibleforce.com.au/Dow ... Issue4.pdf

we were about to play modified Battle for the Pass scenario where there were three counters on the battle field. If your unit ended the game on it you got the objective and 200VP bonus points for each.

Charles had a very intriguing army, both in terms of composition and visual effects. It was modelled with the use of Easterlings miniatures from Lord of the Rings series but the characters were special too.

Easterlings of Chaos – Army List

Scylla Anfinngrim (Shelob) – General
Sorcerer Lord of Tzeentch (Sauron), level 4, Disk, Sword of Might, Earthing Rod, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation, The Third Eye of Tzeentch, Flaming BreathLore of Tzeentch
Sorcerer (Ringwraith), level 2, Chaos Steed, Charmed Shield, Dispel Scroll Lore of Metal
BSB, Exalted Hero of Tzeentch, Daemonic Mount, Armour of Destiny, Scaly Skin

14 Marauder Horsemen, Mark of Slaanesh, Flails, FC
5 Marauder Horsemen, Mark of Slaanesh, Flails, Standard
5 Marauder Horsemen, Mark of Slaanesh, Flails, Standard
5 Marauder Horsemen, Mark of Slaanesh, Flails
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds

Gorebeast Chariot, Mark of Slaanesh
Gorebeast Chariot, Mark of Slaanesh
6 Chaos Trolls
5 Chaos Knights, Mark of Slaanesh, Gleaming Pennant


Very interesting army list and you could bet it was not a coincidence that it was shaped like that. Let’s have a look at the details:

Scyla – I have never faced that special character before. As a general he gives nice Ld10 inspiring presence. Very good for trolls! He is relatively tough with T5 and scaly skin 5+ gives him a little protection. He also has 6+ save that combines nicely with MR(3). He is unbreakable which can be used as an asset. He has random attacks and only WS4 but with hatred it can still count. Star Lance noble could potentially get him on the charge with the Potion of Foolhardiness. Other high S attacks eventually would get him too although I'd better do it quick as he might get quite a few attacks back.

Sorcerer Lord – now we have a typical tooled up Tzeentch disk surfer but as he is not general he can be used more freely. Sure, 400+ is not cheap but at least there is no bonus for the general in this case. Extremely tough to kill due to 1+ armour and 3++ ward with re-rolls of 1’s. Unlike combat Tzeentch Lord, however, he is the most dangerous when he casts his spells and Tzeentch Lore can be really dangerous. Swordm of Might and Flaming Breath added to his arsenal even further. Would be great to catch him so that at least he would have been grounded. Otherwise, he will be major trouble.

Sorcerer – He definitely helps against high armoured foes as Tzeentch Lord might not get the Gateway but even if he does, he can add to the must-dispel spells for the enemy. Metal Lore has some useful spells anyway so that there is also a nice choice. Dispel Scroll is always handy. Not to mention obvious advantage of having 2 dice to channel rather than 1.

BSB – Another hard to kill hero, which is very important in the case of a BSB. But he can also be very good at combat as all chaos champions. Other than that good, old BSB is always handy to have around, be it as an independent character or in the unit. I guess breaking him in combat would be the best option due to his 1+/3++.

Marauder Horsemen – I have never seen so many fast cavalry units in a single army (maybe DE are close to it these days or new WE) and I was impressed. They were all armed with flails so that could be potentially dangerous. Big unit as an interesting option. Mounted sorcerer had plenty of regiments to hide. Mark of Slaanesh is very good choice on them as they will never panic and can always be used as redirectors. Very useful and very cheap too. Can do some damage but even if they don’t they are not expensive to be worried about.

Hounds – poor hounds are perfect throw away unit. They are very useful though and add to the number of regiments that can keep the enemy away from joining the fight or slow them down. Typical diverter role. The problem is they need to be eliminated too as otherwise even a single dog can be very annoying.

Chariots – now tougher guys for a change. Not fast but with good charge range and very, very tough. Perfect support unit as they need to touch the enemy to deliver the maximum number of attacks. Their impact hits are the most dangerous though. If charged or counter charged they are still a trouble but if hit in the flank the beast cannot attack and that means they are more vulnerable. Dragon Princes, in particular with characters, have a good chance to destroying them though. Quite good target for searing doom too.

Trolls – the “deathstar” of the army if accompanied by Scyla and BSB. Scyla provides some protection against spells so that they are not naked. Flaming attacks needed greatly here. Wider frontage means they can be easier diverted. Normally one unit of 6 trolls is manageable (but not easy to defeat) but with characters it can be a real problem.

Knights – another hitty unit in the army. Not many warriors in there! 5 knights is a problem on its own as I have experienced many times. However, they are perfect target for searing doom, and I have enough high S attacks in the army to try and tackle them too.

The main challenge, however, was that it was Battle for the Pass scenario so I could not use spread formation to try and engage the enemy in one-on-one combats where my units are better. Apart from trolls and knights of course. But winning the war of support units is priority in MSU vs MSU fights.

Deployment

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MSU armies in the Battle for the Pass - and you still have rivers!

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Deployment of the armies after vanguard moves

I hoped to use defensive position with my shooters behind the river and added Lions for protection while other units would hopefully be able to attack the flank of the incoming enemy. At the same time I had to pay attention to the objectives and looked like there is a chance they can be contested if taking them is impossible.

Shooters behind the river and sisters in the building gave me hope to either thin down the trolls or shoot at light cavalry.

Surprisingly I won first turn and I had to come up with the plan as what to do when the enemy is not yet approaching my lines!

Oh, the enemy wizards had the following spells:

Sorcerer Lord: Pink Fire of Tzeentch, Bolt of Change, Glean Magic, Infernal Gateway
Level 2: Searing Doom, Enchanted Blades

Outcasts - Turn 1

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Elves move cautiously

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Keeping defensive positions

Elves didn't move fast forward as the passage through was blocked by the units of Chaos. The gaps had to be made with shooting and magic. Due to intervening terrain or units being out of range, the shooting was less than impressive. Only some hounds and a some horsemen fell and that didn't impress neither of sides.

Easterlings of Chaos – Turn 1

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Close up on the centre and left flank

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Close up on right flank

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And the bigger picture

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Chaos troops do not run towards enemy lines, just send their Sorcerer Lord

Surprisingly (or not!) the light armoured horsemen of Chaos were not eager to move towards the Elves and some units even withdrew. The survivors of the shooting went hiding behind other troops. Only the Sorcerer Lord moved towards the enemy. His attempt to cast a bolt of change at the dragon princes was dispelled but that opened the defences and he could cast Gateway without any resistance. Dragon Princes died anyway and only the noble remained.

Outcasts - Turn 2

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Reavers sneak in

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Stand off on the right flank

Units on the right flank didn't move forward but that didn't allow them to shoot at preferred target anyway so the shooting was wasted on tough and well armoured foes. Even fire ball did nothing to trolls since the Khorne protection was strong. Only reavers managed to sneak in between enemy units and shot down two more marauder horsemen.

Easterlings of Chaos – Turn 2

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Sorcerer Lord strikes again!

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Another gateway!

The units on the left flank withdrew. No need to fight Swordmasters anyway. On the right flank the regiments shifted their positions but in general they didn't move forward much either. Trolls were in the safe distance from the shooters and Sisters in particular. Marauders were too far for the archers to pick them up. Only chariots were moved a little forward since their toughness and armour were protection enough.

Sorcerer Lord landed behind the elven lines despite nearby White Lions. He used them as a next target and destroyed them utterly with his spells (Edit: I thought it was Gateway again but it may have been Pink Fire as well, in any case, all died)

Outcasts - Turn 3

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Elves move a little forward

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Loremaster tried to snipe the Sorcerer Lord

Elves didn't move forward much, only sea guard attempted to change position. Reavers had to withdraw to more defensive position. (Edit: I failed my march test and could not use the speed to hunt down the marauders.)

Larry the Loremaster risked all in a single searing doom spell but only 1 wound was inflicted upon the Sorcerer Lord. Two Chaos Knights fell to the ground too.

Easterlings of Chaos – Turn 3

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Charles after killing 4 reavers with a searing doom. 5 hits, 4 wound on 5+, that's how you roll it! :)

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Time for blurry pictures :oops:

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Gorebeast chariot scatters elven infantry

Sorcerer Lord hid behind the building while nearby chariot attempted to catch elven infantry but both units withdrew in time. Warhounds tried to bait some elven knights while big units of marauders blocked the passaged through the river.

Then sorcerer, seeing how efficient his master was, cast a spell on reavers. No less than 4 elves died due to deadly searing doom but the only survivor didn't panic. He had to withdraw though.

Gorebeast chariot moved to threaten Swordmasters flank who seemed to overexpose themselves. But other than that army of Chaos occupied its defensive position.

Outcasts - Turn 4

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Loremaster jumps to the house for a better view

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but still cannot hunt down the notorious Sorcerer Lord

Elves don't take the bait and shoot the warhounds instead. Magic is still uneventful and Elves don't feel confident enough to advance more aggressively. Even Swordmasters back up from the chariot (Edit: one of the situations where I wish I had a musician)

Easterlings of Chaos – Turn 4

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Some more units shifting

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Warhounds chase Swordmasters away!

Gorebeast chariot charges Swordmasters who made a little rush decision and tried to withdraw in good order. However, nearby war hounds chased them too and warriors of Hoeth had no choice but to retreat to the nearby rocks. They escaped but would have been to late to re-join the battle!

Sorcerer Lord again flew around and behind elven lines but his bolt of change was stopped by the dragon armour this time.

Outcasts - Turn 5

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An attempt to shoot some enemies

Elves were running out of time and tried to get a few enemies. But shooting and magic were again quite disappointing. Even combat didn't go well as chariot fled and the noble could not catch it while lone reaver attacking from the rear could not break the hounds (Edit: or catch them, can't remember which one)!

Easterlings of Chaos – Turn 5

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Securing the objectives

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Stalemate until the very end

Chaos troops moved in to secure the objectives and controlled two out of three. Sorcerer Lord tried to cast some magic but surprisingly even to him the winds of magic dissipated before he cast a spell.

With that both armies withdrew, none could have gained enough advantage to break through but it was clear the forces of destruction controlled bigger part of the pass now.

After-battle thoughts

Unfortunately, due to lack of time we could not even finish the magic phase and I am sure some more casualties would have been suffered by my army with the Lord ready to cast more gateways or bolts. In any case, Charles outplayed me and won 12-8 and that secured him first place at the tournament! Well done, Charles! =D>

I played against a very cunning opponent and made some mistakes, so no wonder I lost.

First of all, I deployed assuming the enemy will come to me. I should not have. And that helped Charles to play to his strengths. Basically, he kept fragile units away and I wasted resources on hunting down unkillable lord.

Second, as I have mentioned, I should have tried to get some points elsewhere. The Lord can kill a unit per turn but I should have done so too. For example, instead of targeting him with searing doom I should have done so with Knights. They are the perfect target. Or even chariots. I wasted fire ball on trolls where middle one could have wiped out some marauders. It would have had additional benefit in the form of preventing them from contesting the objective.

I also misread the rules and assumed that staying in 3" from the objective can contest it. Hence I didn't move dragon princes in the middle. I gave away 200VP for free.

From the hindsight I should have stayed with Swordmasters and take the charge but I suffered from yet another tunnel vision and made the very same mistake as with Loremaster in game 3. :oops: #-o There was a chance I would have held (maybe on steadfast if lucky) but that also would have make it easier for the noble to catch the chariot.

The last two mistakes were the difference between loss and a draw.

I should have deployed differently, however and be a little more aggressive. I think I need more units on the right flank, also mixed and not shooters only. Then apply shooting and magic to hurt fragile units rather than waste the potential on tough targets. And maybe force some exchanges too.

From the perspective of a player it was a very challenging game and despite not many combats it was the fight were we both tried to get into better position but not gaining enough of advantage decided not to push it too much.

That concludes the last report of the tournament and I will follow with some summary, hopefully soon!

Thanks for reading!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Game 5 - deployment

#62 Post by Ferny »

There are elements here I would love to take on with MSU and other elements which are a Pain in the Arse.

Generally I'd fancy your chances against any of the light cav and dogs (even the big unit of marauders) - whether shooting or combat. It's interesting that he has so much chaff but quite limited actual hitty units (which therefore minimises the effectiveness of chaff, as it's fine to throw it away, but only to gain something) - I think your list has a better balance.

Trolls I think are a threat if you can't thin them down a bit first if for whatever reason flaming DP are not available for that combat (ideally in flank to minimise vomit) - that I think presents your biggest prioritisation challenge.

Chaos knights I think you can take. Stubborn lion blocks make good holders and if you can get a flank on them then perfect.

Gorebeast chariots are a nightmare for non-cannon armies. They're armoured, T and W enough to make a mockery of shooting. At least they're not Nurgle though...I've found that if you get the chance rear/flank charges work well, and I think searing doom or spirit leach would be good options too - possibly high priority casts for Larry, especially with so much chaff likely to block flank access.

What I think might be difficult is the surfer - he can go wherever he wants (subject to you shutting down landing spots with threat zones) and is pretty tough even if you do land near him. But unchallenged his magic will be a nightmare! The Ringraith is less trouble I think because with metal he might matter less? But he's still a begger to kill. Scylla might be easy points in combat? BSB...yeah, if you can pop it I think that's the way to do it. I think it's a bit tricky with MSU because you lack static res (I never achieved it), but I'm sure it can be done. I always find the DP/BSB difficult in WoC match ups - here the equivalents are the SocLord and BSB. Looking forward to the match.

Good luck!
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Game 5 - deployment

#63 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Ferny!

Thanks for your comments. Obviously, I cannot address them yet and I hope that despite time constraints I will be able to finish this report soon. However:
Ferny wrote:It's interesting that he has so much chaff but quite limited actual hitty units (which therefore minimises the effectiveness of chaff, as it's fine to throw it away, but only to gain something) - I think your list has a better balance.
I think you are heavily underestimate support units in general, in this army in particular and trust me, that player knows very well what he is doing :)
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Game 5 - deployment

#64 Post by Ferny »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I think you are heavily underestimate support units in general, in this army in particular and trust me, that player knows very well what he is doing :)
Intriguing - interest duly piqued :).
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Game 5 - deployment

#65 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I have found out that fast cavalry is often considered only as a sacrificial lamb. While in the case of many units it may be true or at least it may be their primary role it is not always the case. Even here, while cheap and obviously expendable, they can add to some combat too. The fact they are more numerous can be an asset in itself.

I highly recommend this topic by Charles if you want to learn more about his approach to army list building in general and this list in particular.

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.p ... pic=168340

Interestingly, he took a modified army to most recent tournament in Melbourne where he also employed 3 units of foot marauders. It was due to special rule for the tournament, where you could get extra points if a unit with a rank could occupy table quarters for extra victory points.

To intrigue you even more I can tell you that we were the only players at this stage who hasn't lost a game :)
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Game 5 - deployment

#66 Post by Ferny »

I'm clearly not seeing the full potential of his list. I've fought plenty of WoC and I *hate hate hate* Tzeench characters. I think the lord is gonna be a pain in the ass and the BSB won't be loads better, but he's grounded so that makes him controllable. Marauders I kinda get but not really. There must be either synergy or simply hidden power I'm not seeing...also sounds like a very good general, which always helps win games :lol: . I'm gonna have to see this army play - can't wait :).

Despite the billing I still have faith you can win this one :).
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Game 5 - deployment

#67 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Ferny,

Unfortunately, I lost the last game. Combination of cunning player and mistakes on my part cost me and no wonder I lost. But I hope the report is still interesting to read.

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Game 5 - updated 7.06.2014

#68 Post by Ferny »

An excellent story - very much enjoyed seeing the units dance around.

Thoughts...

...unkillable flying lords are really tricky. I wonder whether you made a mistake by allowing him a landing zone behind your lines? Difficult to avoid, I know. Also, I guess you had it covered by your lions, but they were wiped out by magic. In principle I think we need to tie them down in combat. That's easier said than done, but MSU potentially has the tools to do that by controlling landing zones (unless he wipes you out, as per here). Not really advice as such - I struggle a lot with these dudes. Incidentally - in the game I played the other night I unforged an unkillable BSB's 4++ and then 4xRBT single shotted him to death in T1 (and even managed to last turn RBT the DP). Not an option with your list, but it's nice to know that there are hard counters out there at least.

I think you're right in your analysis that the right flank had no pushers. It would have been difficult though because of the chariot's threat arc. I guess maybe lions for stubborn or hope for something on steadfast and then aim for the flank charge? Of course, he would react so it's easy to say and difficult to execute.

I still kinda think the chariots should have been your number one priority. They're tough to shoot (short of magic or possibly single bolt, though multi-shot vs fast cav might be better) and tricky in combat, but their threat projection is huge. If you could force the issue with an eagle or hold from a charge and counter-charge then you'd have been able to advance with much more confidence. Or even targetting them with magic (searing doom, spirit leach).

Anyway, good game - excellent read. Before I forget too, some great photos - I was hoping there'd be more so I could see the easterlings force in more detail after the deployment shots :).
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Game 5 - updated 7.06.2014

#69 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Ferny,

Thanks a lot for your comments!

Sorcerer Lord on a Disc is obviously a very dangerous opponent all by himself. I think he is more dangerous than a fighting flying character, such as dragon lord or blood thirster, simply because he can pick the units from afar and no amount of positioning can prevent that. I can limit his options but I need to assume he will be able to take one unit per turn.

My mistake was to focus on him too much and that led to other mistakes as well. I should have listened to myself as I wrote about it before :) You don't ignore the danger, try to limit the possibilities for the opponent but I started to react to his moves and that is never a good thing. As I have mentioned, going for other targets would have been way better. I had the tools to get the knights, the chariots, the marauders. I just didn't use them well.

Different, more mixed deployment would have helped greatly because I could create double line formation, with front line units advancing and putting pressure on the enemy while second line regiments would have guarded the landing zones. As I have mentioned before I assumed Charles would advance with his army but he didn't. I have the tools to be ready for that situation but due to poor deployment I limited myself.

Add to that some more mistakes and I lost a game which could have been closer to a draw if not a draw anyway. But I like to think I have learned a few things from that game so I will hopefully be more prepared next time. And the good thing is that I don't have to change the army list to do so!

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Game 5 - updated 7.06.2014

#70 Post by Ferny »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Add to that some more mistakes and I lost a game which could have been closer to a draw if not a draw anyway. But I like to think I have learned a few things from that game so I will hopefully be more prepared next time. And the good thing is that I don't have to change the army list to do so!
It sounds like the perfect learning game. I love list tweaking (it's one of the joys of the game for me) but equally who doesn't replay battles in their heads afterwards, going over the what ifs and should haves.

So far I've only had a couple of games where at the time I felt I had no options. One was vs a scream list before I understood the VC book...still a nasty list, but there are counters. The other was the dragon list with my MSU which we've chatted about already, and again, while I still feel that's about as hard as it gets, I can see now better approaches given my list. All in all, I still feel that so long as a list is put together with a general plan of how it should work then, with plusses and minusses, it should be able to do something against most other lists.
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Game 5 - updated 7.06.2014

#71 Post by Jimmy »

Hey SM

The final battle really intrigues me for a number of reasons, firstly it’s almost an MSU tailored force to tackle your own so on paper a hard match up and of course a very well proven general you’re facing. The models look very interesting as well.

Turn 1 – Ouch on losing the Dragon Princes. That’s a shame that asset really was dropped so quickly!

Turn 2 – A great opening spotted that the Reavers snuck through! Another unit lost! Ouch. Nasty magic.

Turn 3 – Wow, even nastier magic. :( Very interesting to see Chaos play the defensive game (and so well!).

Turn 4 – Every turn so far Charles has removed/dealt with a unit. Each blow being felt by your MSU forces, normally it’s you who is deleting a unit per turn.

Turn 5 – End game being the rush for objectives.

A very interesting game of chess as it’s best. Magic seemed to have certainly been lacking for you in this game, was this because of the opposing +4 to dispel or low magic wind rolls or both?

Shame about the loss but part of the undoing was not heeding your own advice. In the pre-game you stated what would be good targets for searing doom however don’t use it at all? It’s very easy to get the mosquito reaction (I stole that from you by the way! :-p) as you did with the Sorcerer Lord however it’s warranted I believe as he was on a single model warpath.

Either way, great read and you’ve walked away learning more about your army and the game in general. Well done.
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Game 5 - updated 7.06.2014

#72 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys,

Thanks a lot for comments! 8)

@ Ferny

I know it works different for different people but I have found out I learn more and can be a better player if I stick to the army list and try to see what could been done better. My understanding is that if I start changing the list I simply change the initial conditions too much and then I am in a new position so I cannot use the lessons I have just learned. It is simplified of course but that is the general idea.

If I look at the games I played, talk with other players about other options, then I can be better prepared next time. In fact, many times during writing the report I spotted opportunities by simply creating a diagram.

Having said that I know the list has to evolve. You need to adapt. New armies appear, you may play in different environments etc. But again, I have found out small changes work better for me so that I can accommodate them better and can see better what impact on the army they have. I also want to play a few games with particular set up to have see how it works in different conditions when different enemies are there to defeat or different scenarios affect the plan.

@ Jimmy

Thanks! I am glad you enjoyed the report!

We both have tools to take on each other so it was great to see Charles playing to his strengths while I could not bring mine to the equation. There was a lot of careful movement around that showed that neither of us wanted to over commit as that may have led to fatal consequences.

As I have mentioned, I made a mistake with the objectives as I thought 3" away counts for contesting at least. :oops: #-o

Tzeentch magic can be powerful and this game winds of magic favoured Charles as he usually had enough dice to cast 2 spells with handful of dice too. That put me under pressure as I had to dispel one (without guarantee I can do it when he 6-diced gateway for example) and having another dangerous spell to let go. For example, bolt of change is horrible for me when cast by flying character as it is very hard to avoid these flank shots on my cavalry.

On the other hand my own magic phases didn't get more than 7 dice. I got fireball through, I think spirit leach was allowed as well as ward saves were there to use and searing doom managed to sneak in but again, ward saves helped and I got a single wound on him only. I also managed to roll double 1's on first spell (2 dice) one magic phase and re-roll didn't help here at all so another magic phase when nothing happened while I had some dice to cast.

I have found out that if the winds of magic are 7+ for me I can usually sneak a spell or two through, even against level 4. But I need power dice to apply that pressure and choose the spells/targets well so that the opponent has difficult decision to make as all of them are dangerous one way or another.

yes, I need to be more disciplined and heed my own advice! :) I guess it does make a difference when you look at the game while in the heat of battle and when you do the same after the emotions are off. Well, have to keep practising and try to play more games so even in the situations like that good habits hit in first!

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Game 5 - updated 7.06.2014

#73 Post by Iluvatar »

Hi Swordmaster!
Again, thanks for those reports. They're always a pleasure to read!
The WoC list is quite refreshing to see - very different from what you usually see. And your opponent definitely played an excellent game! I'd be very curious to see how he plays other matchups - is he often so defensive and evasive?
Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Game 5 - updated 7.06.2014

#74 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Iluvatar!

Thanks a lot! I am glad the reports are entertaining!

I am sure Charles plays aggressively if that is needed or gives him better options for collecting points. You can have a look at this report from his recent tournament written by his opponent where they played on the top table turn 5 of the event:

http://jerkhammer.blogspot.com.au/2014/ ... lo_10.html

After all he needs these points from somewhere in order to win big and place well!
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Game 5 - updated 7.06.2014

#75 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Tournament Summary

I was very happy with the games I had this tournament. It would have not been possible if not for great organisation and fantastic opponents! So my big Thank You! to TO's for taking time for preparation and all the players for creating nice atmosphere. People were great and did their best to have competitive games and be fantastic sports!

It was a small tournament but was run smoothly and the terrain quality is great. The only thing that may be improved is the tables. They are big and stable but they only have clothes instead of mats and that sometimes creates little bumps. It also makes it possible to move it a little by accident. But it is a minor thing and I have already suggested they may try and purchase the mats Ptolemy advertised as an alternative.

The terrain was very good and added to the tactical options for the games. Although the last one with two rivers in the pass was tough :) I like the scenarios as they seem to add greatly to the games. You need to pay attention to the objectives and as you could have seen sometimes I was close to get more points if I tried harder to accomplish these tasks. It does affect the way the armies are built and in fact, creates more variety.

I am glad I managed to get good victories with the same army (more or less) I had at CanCon as it shows that it has the tools but simply needs to be used more aggressively. Sometimes (mainly two last games) I should have pushed harder though. I will try to write a more detailed post about the army performance in the army list section. I will try to play with it again as I do need musicians I left behind and will try to find new balance again. I like the addition of mounted nobles but may try to play with the equipment. Basically, the usual challenge is to fit all you want in the single army :)

I was very happy to find out my results were good enough to secure 2nd overall placing, just behind Charles! It seems that we were fighting for the top position on table 1!

It was a great tournament and I hope you enjoyed the reports!

Once again, thanks for reading and comments!

Cheers! :D
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Summary

#76 Post by Glonojad »

I am sorry, as I once again am resurrecting an older battle... this time Battle 2 ;) I am writing as I am reading, this way I might get some surprises ;)

T0: I like the idea to deploy conservatively. Not only does it allow You time to react, it also is more time for shooting and spellcasting sice beasts have little shooting and not that dangerous magic (at least from a ranged perspective).

T1: As expected, beasts ran forward and Elves regroupped, nog being happy with the deployment. Nice to see some focused shooting sice there was no real chaff targets in range; I wondef however what was it that got the ungor on the south-west of thd table.

T2: A noble and necesarry sacrifice. Maybe it was Adam's mistake to put that BSB in the front? Still I guess I'd think him safe there too.... I don't see what happened to shooting though. Also nof having a champion helped - Drakelord by himsekf might not be abld to kill the bearer bg himself.

T3: So the battle could not be delayed any longer. These hordes are so clumsy it is no wonder Gors got stuck and gave You the possibility for a two flank charge... if only You caught them fleeing :p. I see another, this time female, sacrifice is brewing... oh, and was it impossible to get ER2 not with their side to the chariot?

T4: doombull charge must've been a shock with all the Elves dead... what is his I? Would spearelves or Phoenix Guard fare better? Nice move with the hero charging out of DP, I keep forgetting I can reform after the hero charged out. A pity LSG didn' make it, but I don't see a place for them in combst anyway. ;)

T5: By this time it ws obvious Swordmaster is going to win, even though the large Minotaur unit remained unchallenged. I wonder if if maybe was a bit too expensive - so many points tied in a single place and, unlike thd Gor jnit with BSB and Gt Shaman - lacking appeal to be charged while not fast enough not to bd outmaneouvered.

Anyway, another nice game with another crucial "pincer" - and I think fun too!
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Summary

#77 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Glonojad,

Thanks for comments!

T1: I had to use eagle claw bolt thrower to get rid of the ungors and was lucky to panic them.

T2: As soon as I got rid of some of the minotaurs we had to allocate hits between heroes and they are way tougher to wound as well as having more armor too!

Champions are actually safe to decline the challenge and keep fighting so no danger here.

T3: I placed ER with flank exposed so that the overrun/pursuit would not reach noble so that he could counter charge.

T4: Doombull had always strike first sword and high enough initiative to get re-rolls. spears would have died all the same but if in greater number they might have retained steadfast. I missed champion here. PG have a chance to save some wounds and would not allow re-rolls so yes, they should have been better in this situation.

T5: Minobus is quite fast. With more traditional armies, with fewer models it is not that easy to avoid. But a unit with doombull alone is quite tough anyway. Maybe there were too many points in it. I would have tried to move them alone too.

Thanks for comments once more!
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Summary

#78 Post by Jimmy »

Well done on your 2nd placing mate, even if it was with your non competitive and underpowered MSU crap that clearly won't work against seasoned opponents. :lol:

=D>

Great job.
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Summary

#79 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks Jimmy,

For me these victories are as hard won as at any other big tournament :) And people tend to be both competitive and great sports too! No dodgy moves, bending rules or anything that might have spoiled the fun of warhammer!

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Summary

#80 Post by de kaasboer »

Thanks for all the great reports SM! i always read them with great joy if i have some spare time :D

i think the last game shows you can never just " assume" your opponent is going to come towards you just because you have some shooting and he doesn't. i know it always threw people off on tournaments back in 7th when i still played chaos and did NOT march forward at full speed in, the first turn(s). just the psychological impact of not doing what one expects can be a great boost to your chances of winning :)

i love your list and the way you play it but i do think the last game highlights how 1 or 2 more ECBT could be of great use to forcing opponents to engage you. not that your list doesn't work atm as is shown by your continuous good results, but it does give you a bit more flexibility in switching gears between defensive and offensive play if the situation so requires.

anyway, congratz on your placing and the good time you had at the tournament (just as important!) and thanks again for the great reports :D

cheers,

J
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Summary

#81 Post by de kaasboer »

double post :roll:
Last edited by de kaasboer on Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Summary

#82 Post by de kaasboer »

tripplle possst :oops:
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Summary

#83 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi de kaasboer,

Thank you for your kind words! It is great to know my reports are entertaining! :)

I keep thinking about that game and it simply shows to me that I need to be more flexible. In many aspects. For example, I really need to develop that flexible deployment that allows to switch between defense and offense. In the same game too! It was my first but important mistake that game as it affected my deployment and when I noticed my opponent plays defensively I was not in position to take the fight to him in a comfortable way despite the fact I had the tools to do so.

I will not deny that Eagle Claws are very useful and that they can force the enemy to do something. Charles told me after the game that these war machines are very powerful against his army. And they obviously have uses against other forces too. However, as always I need to find points for them (even 70 points for one may be difficult to find) and what is more, I don't think it is the only way.

I promise to discuss the army list in the respective topic at some stage but I think this tournament showed (also in comparison to CanCon) that change of mentality is enough to make the same list more aggressive. And by doing so it will also provide the options to get the enemies who are reluctant to fight. Hopefully, despite a lot of work in real life, I will also find some time to address some ideas I am contemplating recently and who knows, I might even get a chance to play a game or two to test it out!

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Summary

#84 Post by Glonojad »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: T2: (...)

Champions are actually safe to decline the challenge and keep fighting so no danger here.
Oops. My bad. Gotta sign up for a "warhammer for dummies" course or something...

T3: I placed ER with flank exposed so that the overrun/pursuit would not reach noble so that he could counter charge.


Isn't that a matter of an angle of the unit, rather than with which side?
Thanks for comments once more!
No, thank You for the reports... and answers!
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Summary

#85 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Glonojad,

Nah, don't worry. There are so many rules one can forget some once in a while. I remember the one about the champions simply because it was discussed some time ago why it is worthy including them in the units, if you can afford them of course.

I have had a look at the map and I tried to trace back what was my plan about the reavers. It is possible that I also wanted to take pot shots at the harpies. Killing 1 meant panic check and without bsb or general nearby they are quite cowardly. But I am not sure at the moment.

It is indeed correct that it is the angle that is the most important in diverting the enemies.

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Summary

#86 Post by Glonojad »

Well, the batrep maps are of course a report, not a direct battlefield copy.

Still I've got to return to actual playing.
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Summary

#87 Post by Ferny »

Jimmy wrote:Well done on your 2nd placing mate
Yes - well done! I have a habit across all threads of enjoying the discussion and ignoring the results, but well done and thanks again for all the batreps :).
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Re: HE MSU at ANUWTF - Summary

#88 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks Ferny! :)
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