Gandalf_82's Battle Log

This forum is for the posting of reports of your famous victories and crushing defeats. It is for both single battle reports and for ongoing army diaries/blogs.

Moderators: The Heralds, The Loremasters

Message
Author
Gandalf_82
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 4:20 pm

Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#1 Post by Gandalf_82 »

Ok, so I thought I’d have my first stab at a battle report. Figured it would be good to get some feedback on just how bad I am tactically and how weak my lists are! :D

I have a regular opponent who plays Dwarves, this is only our second game since the new book was out and the first one was carnage with not a lot left on the board at the end of the game! Call it a bloody draw! I took a lot more of a pasting in combat than I anticipated so I decided to try a different approach for this one and not be so aggressive. First time I’ve ever fielded 4 RBT’s in a game at the expense of another infantry block (Probably would have gone with PG).
I also felt that with their boost in combat abilities and survivability that I needed a bit more punch to my main WL unit, especially against his lord on standard bearers to help me win combat so I opted to field a prince on foot.

My full list (2.4k):
Prince (General)
Sword of Anti-Heroes
Cloak of Beards
Dragonhelm
Talisman of Preservation
Heavy Armour and Shield

Archmage (Shadow)
Lvl 4. BoH and Crown of Atrazar

Mage (High)
Lvl 2. Channelling Staff, Ironcurse Icon

Noble BSB
Shield of Myrwyrm, Sword of Might
Dragon Armour

Core
Archers * 15
Reavers – 2 units of 5 with bows and spears
Spearmen – 30 with full CG

Special
White Lions * 27 with full CG and BotWD

Rare
4* RBT’s
Frostheart Phoenix

My general plan before seeing his army was to deal with any Gyrocopters he brings (anticipating a couple) with either the Reavers or the RBT’s early doors. See if I can get at his war machines with either the Frosty or the Reavers and only commit to combat when I feel the odds are sufficiently in my favour. Hopefully rolling Mindrazor for when the spearmen hit combat and Pit of Shades to soften his main block(s) up.

His list surprised me a bit in that he didn’t have any canons:

Lord on Shield bearers tooled up for combat
Thane BSB
Runesmith
37 Longbeards
20 Hammerers
20 Rangers
1 Gyrocopter
1 Grudge Thrower
2 Organ Guns (one with no runes so non magical)

The first game we played turned out to be a really boring affair. His lack of a canon meant I was happy to sit at the back and take out his warmachines before advancing as he had nothing that could hurt me. However despite getting withering off a couple of times 4 RBT’s shooting for 3 turns achieved exactly 1 wound on a grudge thrower. Epic dice. So that game ended with 2000 pts of Dwarves and 2300 of Elves still on the table.
So we played again, he swapped an Organ Gun for a cannon and I stuck to the same list. I cant imagine that would make for much of a report :wink:

2nd time around for spells I got Withering, Pendulum, Miasma and Enfeebling Foe on the Arch and Walk between Worlds and Fiery Conv on the lvl 2.

Deployment he seemed to really mess up which set the tone for the game. (The beers had been flowing a while by this point!)
He put his hammerers too far out on his right early in deployment and left his Organ Gun and Grudge Thrower exposed. I loved the bravery of deploying the scouts out front but sacrificial lambs sprang to mind!

Deployment

Image

My plan was simple, roll up his right flank and then push into his centre with the WL’s whilst the Spearmen, Frosty and Reavers on the left dealt with the Gyrocopter and the Rangers.
Bear with the pics, my first attempt at Battle Chronicler so still learning! I completely forgot my characters until it was too late (much effort!) to correct. My lvl 2 was deployed in the Archers and the BSB, Prince and Archmage in the WL’s.

Turn 1

Image

I won turn one, pushed the White Lions and Reavers forward on my right. Got Withering off on the rangers and despite being in hard cover my archers and RBT’s whittled down 8 of them. I also managed to cast WBW on the Lions to really get them close to his warmachines.

Image

In response he pushed his Longbeards and Hammerers forward. Flew over the spearmen with the Gyro to drop his bombs on them, however that only succeeded in killing 2. Things picked up for him then though. His GT aimed for my high mage but missed, the shot scattering onto my spearmen, killing enough to force a panic test which they promptly failed! His 12 rangers then produced some inspired marksmanship, shooting 7 of my archers who also failed their panic test and fled straight off the board! Good work lads.

Turn 2

Image

My WL’s charged the organ gun and the reavers the grudge thrower. Both were swiftly dispatched and they reformed to face the centre. The reavers on the left marched to threaten the now exposed canon but staying just outside of grapeshot range. The spearmen rallied. The first RBT shot dealt with the Gyrocopter and the other 3 put a few wounds on the longbeards.

Image

In response the Hammerers pushed towards the spearmen. The longbeards reformed and moved to face the WLs and the rangers foolishly left their cover to advance on the exposes RBT’s. The canon putting a few wounds on the spearmen the only Elves to fall that turn.

Turn 3

Image

The reavers on the left charged the canon, dealing one wound. The rest of my units repositioning. The spearmen to deal with the rangers and the frosty and WL’s the Longbeards.
The RBT’s dealt another 5 wounds on the rangers to leave them severely depleated.

Image

The Dwarves in response failed with a charge from the Hammerers on the spearmen so just nudged forward. The remaining rangers then reformed to threaten the flank of the WL’s. Combat between the canon and reaver was continuing with neither side able to deal any wounds.

Turn 4

Image

The spearmen moved towards the rangers, just wanting to avoid a pasting at the hands of the Hammerers. The WL’s held thinking I had time to soften up the Longbeards for a turn before charging them. The RBT’s finished off the rangers and put a few more wounds on the LB’s. The Reavers on the left finally finished off the canon.

Image

The Longbeards, caught between a rock and a hard place pushed forward (I failed to show this on the pic) whilst the Hammerers found a turn of speed Usain himself would be proud of, successfully charging the spreamen with a roll of 11. In the ensuing combat they made very short work of the spearmen and again, not shown properly in the pic but they were able to overrun straight into the first on my RBTs.

Turn 5

Image

My WLs and Frosty both charged the LB’s whilst the three remaining RBT’s, having no other targets fled as best they could from the hammerers.
In combat the Prince alone (with plus two attacks and strength from Sword of Anti Heroes) killed 4. The BSB chipped in with a couple more and after the WL’s and Frosty had got their attacks off, 18 dwarves lay slain. They only managed to kill 5 WL’s in return and having been soundly beaten in combat, fled from the WLs. However some epic rolling for pursue meant they managed to outrun even the Frosty!
The RBT was quickly turned into kindling and the Hammerers overran into the next RBT.

By this point it was all over really though, the longbeards rallied but the frosty finished them off in turn 6 and the hammerers polished off 2 more RBT’s. At the end of the game a comfortably Elven victory.

Image

Image

I think my mate was really influenced by our first game with the new book. His Longbeards slaughtered half my army, so he’s tried a more combat oriented approach again here but not given enough thought to his deployment and the fact its easy for an Elven army to outmanoeuvre them. I don’t anticipate such an easy game next time!

Anyway, that took a while to write (Especially learning BC!). I’d best get on and actually do something with my Saturday :D I do have a couple of rules questions on the game but I’ll post them later. Hope its not too bad a battle report :)
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#2 Post by Ferny »

Nice report. Another case of new dwarves not leaving enough of a war-machine guard and getting kicked for their trouble!

I think we might see a settling in period against (not so good?) dwarf players as they play with their new toys and try to settle on lists and tactics which allow them to press forward with good war machine support without leaving the machines unsupported themselves. Once they figure out how to mutually support their forward and rearguard units I think we'll be facing some tough, tough games (copters really scare me!).
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
Gandalf_82
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#3 Post by Gandalf_82 »

Cheers! :)

I would say neither of us are particularly good players and still learning but he clearly schoolboyed there and got punished for it. I think you're right though, I definitely think if/when a Dwarf player gets his tactics right they are going to be a hard opponent with their new rules. I think they are well suited against low toughness elite armies like us. Very capable of softening us up before combat and those Gyros will prove to be a real pain, especially when taken in numbers.
solith
Posts: 737
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:59 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#4 Post by solith »

Good report! I was a bit surprised your opponent let his Hammerers and Longbeards get separated by so much distance, but you were able to exploit that really well. :D

What I've found helps me with the whole forgetting to add things to the picture thing is to write the report while I make the pictures. i.e. I'll start the picture for turn 1, then I'll write up turn 1, then I'll go back and finish the picture for turn 1 - adding all the things I missed the first time. Then I do the same for turn 2 etc.

Do you know what the match-up for your next report will be?
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=44644]My painting log[/url]
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=51340]My battle reports[/url]
Gandalf_82
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#5 Post by Gandalf_82 »

Cheers buddy, sounds like a good method of doing it, think i'll try that next time. As you guessed, I made the pics in BC and then wrote the report up afterwards!

I'm actually in a campaign of Mighty Empires at my local wargames club so its a bit of a lottery what my next battle will be! Only just started though so i'm not even sure what forces are near me. Although I may well get a rematch in against the Dwarves before I have a battle for that.

Either way it isnt likely to be for at least a week, birthday this weekend so busy celebrating (drinking!) :wink:
Jimmy
Centurion
Posts: 3307
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:55 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#6 Post by Jimmy »

Gandalf thanks for the battle report, I just want to say it’s great to see more people getting in and having a go with Battle Chronicler and producing some great reading material. Well done.

The opening turn for the Dwarfs certainly caused some mayhem!

I’ve got to ask in Turn 4, why didn’t you flee with the Spearmen? They weren’t really going to do much in the remaining turns anyway and would have allowed another pasting of Hammerers? Warmachines don’t flee either FYI.

Great envelope techniques there with your army, casting WBW was fantastic on the White Lions in the opening frame, really meant they could threaten from Turn 3 onwards.

Well done, great read.
Nec Sorte Nec Fato - Neither By Chance Nor Fate

X-wing Blog
Gandalf_82
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#7 Post by Gandalf_82 »

Jimmy wrote:Gandalf thanks for the battle report, I just want to say it’s great to see more people getting in and having a go with Battle Chronicler and producing some great reading material. Well done.

The opening turn for the Dwarfs certainly caused some mayhem!

I’ve got to ask in Turn 4, why didn’t you flee with the Spearmen? They weren’t really going to do much in the remaining turns anyway and would have allowed another pasting of Hammerers? Warmachines don’t flee either FYI.

Great envelope techniques there with your army, casting WBW was fantastic on the White Lions in the opening frame, really meant they could threaten from Turn 3 onwards.

Well done, great read.
Cheers, appreciate the positive feedback! I actually really enjoyed writing it up and it definitely made me think more about the battle itself. (Even though it was a relatively simple win). I'll definitely write up more in future. (Starting with a game I have planned for next Wed) :-)

Turn 4, I didnt think he would roll high enough to get in and at that point I was thinking I might have needed the spearmen to help against the LB's in a later turn but in hindsight I was overly worried and fleeing would have been a much better call!
Gandalf_82
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#8 Post by Gandalf_82 »

This week I managed another game down at my local club...

High Elves vs Dark Elves 2400 Points

Having never played our evil kin before and only having skim read the new book once for 15 minutes the week before, I basically wasn’t sure what to expect at all.
With the hatred against our entire book and rerolling 1s to wound vs an elite T3 army I was definitely worried about getting into combat too early.
So I settled on a defensive plan, sitting at the back hoping to using magic and shooting to weaken them before engaging in combat. I did consider a second block of archers over the spearmen but my spearmen are painted so they got the nod! Likewise I went with Swordmasters over PG for the same reason.
I was surprised my opponent didn’t bring his Cauldron of Blood I must admit.

The forces:

High Elves

Archmage lvl 4 on Life with BoH and Crown of Atrazar (and Khaines Ring which I completely forgot about for the whole game!)
Mage lvl 2 on Fire with Dispel Scroll
Noble BSB with Shield of Myrwyrm and Sword of Might

Core
Archers * 21
Reavers *5 with Bows and Spears
Spearmen * 30 with FC

Special
Sword Masters * 18 with FC and Banner of Eternal Flame
White Lions * 30 with FC and BotWD

Rare
Frostheart Phoenix
Repeater Bolt Thrower * 3

Dark Elves

Dreadlord on Cold One with autowound sword (Chillblade or something?)
Sorceress lvl 2 on Dark Magic with Dispel Scroll

Core
Darkspears * 40
Darkshards * 30
Corairs * 10

Special/Rare
Kharibdyss
Hydra
Executioners * 20
Cold One Knights * 10
Medussa

For spells he had a couple of magic missiles, Doombolt and something else.

I rolled Flame Cage and took the fireball sig spell as well on my level 2 and got Throne of Vines, Earth blood, Stoneskin and Dwellers on the Archmage. The way the dice went I was weighing up whether to take Stoneskin or Regrowth as my only real choice, glad I opted for stoneskin in hindsight.

Deployment

Image

I deployed as per my plan towards the back. Having lost deployment I was forced to go first. I didn’t realise only the Hydra had regeneration and not the Kharibdyss otherwise I think I’d have swapped the WL’s for the SM’s. (He left his cold ones until last so at that point I didn’t know they were going on his right flank. I thought he’d put them in the centre to be fair.)

The Reavers vanguarded forward to act as redirectors with his only shooting miles away on my right.

HE Turn 1

Image

I actually lost the roll for turn 1 but inexplicably my opponent let me go first. Clearly he wasn’t expecting me to sit at the back and pick him off.
Nothing moved and an 11 v 6 magic phase resulted in me casting Throne of Vines and drawing out his dispel scroll to dispel flame cage on the darkshards (they were out of range after all so he decided he had to move them).

The archers were out of range. The RBT’s between them killed 5 Darkshards and put a wound on the Medussa.

DE Turn 1

Image

The Medussa failed a charge on the reavers. Everything else pushed forward on mass. An 11 v 5 magic phase took down 8 spearmen and Doombolt put 3 wounds on the Frostheart! Ouch!

HE Turn 2

Image

My plan which had been to charge the Frostheart into his Darkspears to basically hold him up no end was now in tatters with just 2 wounds left. So the Phoenix retreated to within 12 inches of my Archmage (I am playing the Lore of Life attribute correctly aren’t I? It says successful spells restore 1 wound to a model within 12”? So that’s viable to heal a Phoenix back up?)

The WL’s moved forwards as it looked like all of the action would be in the centre and on my left.

An 8 v 6 Magic Phase saw a fireball kill 1 darkshard and a dispelled Dwellers on the Darkspears. (I was rolling 6 dice hoping for the IF but no joy).
Shooting was more successful, the RBT’s killed 8 more Darkshards who were now in range, the archers finished off the Medussa (Should I have been worried about that? No idea what it does?) and the reavers killed 1 darkspear.

DE Turn 2

Image

Eager to get into combat the darkspears charged the reavers who fled from combat. I was lucky here as I’d moved my Swordmasters the previous turn slightly and they were now outside of my generals influence! Luckily they held though, lesson learned hopefully!

The cold ones failed a charge on the SM’s.

A 5 v 6 magic phase (double channel!) achieved nothing. The Darkshards only managed to kill 2 WL’s with shooting.

HE Turn 3

Image

The Reavers weren’t feeling it today and decided to head back to camp!

The Frostheart Phoenix failed a charge on the Darkspears needing just 5 I think it was off 3 dice! The WL’s pushed further towards the action.

Magic saw me get Stoneskin off on the Phoenix and a Dwellers off on the Darkspears, bringing the Frosty back up to 4 wounds and + T4! The Dwellers didn’t fail to disappoint as 19 darkspears were pulled to their doom! Their nerve held though and they didnt flee.

An RBT killed 3 more darkspears to further weaken them ahead of the coming combat and the other two killed 6 Darkshards. They promptly turned tail and fled the torrent of bolts coming their way!

DE Turn 3

Image

Things were definitely about to get messy. The Darkspears charged the Frosty.

The Kharibdyss and the Cold Ones charged the Swordmasters. The Hydra charged the White Lions and the executioners, wary of the Frosty nearby stood their ground. (Mistake?)

The Corsairs declined the opportunity of a flank charge on the WL’s to push forward a bit. The Darkshards rallied.

This time I was nice to my opponent and pointed out he should dispel Throne of Vines in his turn! Other than that his only mage was in combat from this point so he had no spells to cast.

The Frosty killed 2 Darkspears, suffering no wounds in return and having lost combat held.

The Swordmasters were annihilated. However with neither of us really knowing this particular rule properly, my opponent elected to pursue them off the board. Not knowing they wouldn’t then be able to charge next turn when they re-entered as reinforcements’. The Swordmasters probably would have fled off the board anyway and were on snake eyes to rally even If they did just stay on the board, he definitely should have restrained and reformed there.

The Kharibdyss failed to overrun into the first RBT rolling snake eyes :D

The WL’s put 3 wounds on the Hydra and won combat thanks to rank bonus, losing several in return. The Hydra held.

HE Turn 4

Image

The spearmen didn’t hesitate to join the fight with their evil counterparts. Another strong magic phase (11 v 6) saw me cast thrones again followed by stoneskin on the spearmen.

Panicked by their impending doom the first bolt thrower failed to hit the Kharibdyss. The other two RBT’s and the archers turned their attention to the corsairs, killing 5 of them.

The WL’s finished off the Hydra and reformed still facing the executioners.

The spearmen and Frosty made short work of the Darkspears, with the spearmen overrunning towards the executioners.

DE Turn 4

Image

The cold ones rejoin the party but cannot do anything else this turn, blocked by the Kharibdyss which charged my RBT.

The executioners charged the spearmen and the corsairs charged the WL’s in the rear. The Darkshards moved back into range.

My noble killed 3 of the 4 corsairs, with his champion killing 2 WL’s in return. We got the rules wrong here (You don’t get disrupted and lose steadfast unless it’s a rear or flank charge by a unit with 2 full ranks right?) So we counted the WL as disrupted and I only actually won combat by having a musician. Luckily the remaining corsair failed his breaktest and fled anyway.

The executioners only succeeded in killing 5 (toughness 7!) spearmen for the loss of 4 of their own. The spearmen lost combat but held.

The Kharibdyss made short work of my RBT and overran into the second one.

HE Turn 5

Image

The archers marched forward to get out of the overrun of the Kyaribdyss. Had I thought about it properly here I wouldn’t have wheeled, I’d have just marched straight ahead to put as much distance between us as I could. I completely didn’t think about the fact that when he destroyed my 2nd RBT he would be able to reform. I was just thinking he’d be overrunning straight towards the 3rd RBT.

The WL’s and the phoenix both charged the executioners.

Magic saw me cast thrones and stoneskin on the spearmen again.

Combat was a one sided affair and the last few executioners were run down by the Phoenix. The spearmen reformed to face the Cold Ones. The WL’s reformed to face the Kharibdyss which had wiped out the second RBT and reformed to face my archers who were perilously close!

DE Turn 5

Image

The cold ones charged my spearmen who bravely (foolishly!) elected to hold. However they lost combat comfortably, failed their leadership test even with steadfast and were quickly run down. The picture is a little off here, there was never the chance of an overrun onto my WL's, he missed them to the left and didnt get far enough to catch the Phoenix

The Kharibdyss flank charged the archers who choose to flee. Luckily just managing to avoid being caught! The remaining darkspears then succeeded in only shooting 1 fleeing archer.


HE Turn 6

Image

The WL’s charged and made short work of the Kharibdyss which had been a real thorn in my side!

The archers rallied and another Dwellers succeeds in killing 4 more Darkshards but despite that and the remaining RBT killing 3 more they held their nerve and refused to flee again.

DE Turn 6 there was basically nothing for him to attack!

Result – Victory for the Asur!


That was an interesting game and thoroughly enjoyable. I think we both made plenty of mistakes and got the rules wrong at times which could have changed the outcome a little. But that’s part and parcel of learning the game after all! I feel like I’m getting there with the rules at least. I think that’s around my 15th/20th game since my return to the hobby and 8th Ed and like to think I’m improving slowly!

Again I have a couple of rules queries so I will head over to the rules forum at some point with those.

I’d be intrigued to hear what people think of my list and tactics in general. My opponent had a bit of a grumble about me being so negative sitting at the back (which I found very amusing) but is there much else we can do against them now if you plan an army knowing you are facing Dark Elves? Surely trying to go toe to toe with them in combat is asking for trouble?

Next time I face him I think I’d definitely swap the Sword Masters for a unit of Phoenix Guard. The SM's were slaughtered before they really had a chance to fight back!
Jimmy
Centurion
Posts: 3307
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:55 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#9 Post by Jimmy »

Well it appears I’m lucky to have a battle report to read up on first thing on Monday morning! :)

Yes you’re right about the Lore Attribute healing Frosty up, well played. :)

I can’t help but feel that perhaps in your Turn 3 the Swordmasters should have attempted to charge something. It’s range wasn’t too bad and with the Frosty in tow it would have been an easier combat.

On that combat however with Hatred they don’t have to overrun like frenzy so a simple test to reform/restrain what have you depending on the outcome.

Bit of an amateur mistake I’m seeing is lining up your ‘gun line’ (that is RBTs x 2 + Archers) in a single line begging for the enemy units to hit one and overrun into the next pepper potting them into the next combat. Stagger them! ;)

Turn 4 – good charges however I feel here you should have held with the spearelves rather than chase after the Dreadspears, hopefully they get in the way and prevent the executioners from charging and if not at least the range is increased. Had they failed then it allows the Frosty and Spears another dual charge/opportunity for you to magic them.

Turn 5 did you flank shot the Cold Ones with the remaining RBT?

I think that’s a bit sour on your opponents behalf, you had a tactic and simply stuck to it and was rewarded with a victory. Yes I think it’s a mistake with your build to run head long at him, lucky he didn’t take any warlocks, they’re a nightmare to deal with I find. I wouldn’t necessarily be so quick to change out the Swordmasters, rather use them better. ;)

Well done, lots to learn however you’ve produced another quality battle report to read and very entertaining. My thanks.
Nec Sorte Nec Fato - Neither By Chance Nor Fate

X-wing Blog
gaz
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:03 am

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#10 Post by gaz »

Thanks for the rep!
'twas a good read.

Seems to me like your list might be a little light on chaff (which you could use buy some more time for your repeaters and dwellers to do work and give you more choice regarding what fights what in close combat).

I'd trade a few spearmen/archers for an extra unit of reavers I think.
If you just went for very basic spear reavers, you would only have to lose a few spearmen to get an extra unit.

Assuming you don't want to drop the spearmen totally, I'd go for something like (for core):

20 archers + mus
(free reform and gives you a unit for the watchtower)

5 reavers w/ spears
5 reavers w/ spears

24 spears w/ mus + champ (for challenging)
(the banner isn't that important to me as you mostly want these guys for steadfast, not combat res)

This all comes to 606 (one point more than you were spending on core before) but you could get it down to 602 by dropping a spearman and taking bows on one unit of reavers (if you don't have the extra point to spare).

I'd personally try and get in a third unit of chaff but that would necessitate a more significant change to the roster.
jsg2295
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:41 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#11 Post by jsg2295 »

I don't know if it was done...but you do get to reroll failed break and panic tests when playing dark elves. It's our "great" racial attribute against our evil cousins who get that sissy hatred thing.
gaz
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:03 am

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#12 Post by gaz »

*Panic, fear and terror rerolls yes, break rerolls nope (without BSB, obviously).
Nicene
Posts: 1018
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:11 pm
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#13 Post by Nicene »

Can't say i sympathize with your opponent about your passive tactics. Your list displays a respectable balance of ranged and close-combat threats. If he fields a pure combat list, he needs to expect opponents to sit back and shoot at him =]

Oh, and life magic + frost phoenix = awesome
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=61399]my MSU army list/battle reports[/url]

[quote="Nyeave"]Omg it's a parrot chariot - a parriot... :D[/quote]
Gandalf_82
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#14 Post by Gandalf_82 »

Cheers for the feedback guys :-)

@Jimmy - Turn 3 with the Swordmasters I totally agree. At the time I was weighing up whether to charge or not. I went overly cautious here and got duly punished. They definitely werent used well by me there.

Stagger the gunline - good tip. Clearly I didn't give that any thought when deploying.

Turn 4 - again good point. I didn't even consider holding and the fact they might then get in the way!

Turn 5 - Yeah I tried, unfortunately the shot missed :-(

@ Gaz - More chaff would definitely have been useful. I've just ebay'd a second unit of reavers so I will get them into my next battle. Do you think maybe drop the spearmen altogether for some silver helms then? Is that what'd you take for a 3rd unit of chaff?

@ jsg2295 - Didn't remember that rule at all, doh! Cheers for pointing it out.

@ Nicene - Yeah I'm glad I am playing it right, its awesome! I just wish I'd painted my Phoenix as a Frosty instead of a Flamespyre! Best get around to making up the second one I guess! hehe
gaz
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:03 am

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#15 Post by gaz »

Gandalf_82 wrote: @ Gaz - More chaff would definitely have been useful. I've just ebay'd a second unit of reavers so I will get them into my next battle. Do you think maybe drop the spearmen altogether for some silver helms then? Is that what'd you take for a 3rd unit of chaff?
It really comes down to your preference regarding whether or not to keep the spearmen. A high elf player won the US masters with a block of spearmen in his army so it's not like spearmen are terrible. My point was that you really need some more chaff and a slight restructuring of your core seemed the easiest way to get it. If you want a third unit of reavers, that probably would mean dropping the spearmen as they can't really get any smaller and still be effective.

Regarding swapping spear men for silver helms, I think the best way to think about this is to decide what roles you need fulfilled and then to look at what units can fulfill those roles. For me, I get my heavy hitting combat and shooting units from special/rare and then ask myself what my list is lacking that I can get from core. Top priorities are usually a few units of chaff and a bunker for my characters. Reavers are the obvious choice for chaff (cheap and fast) and archers make a good bunker because they can do something while sitting in the backline.

I generally structure my core by first inserting 3 units of reavers and then fitting in what i can with the rest of the core points (usually archers, maybe a few silver helms).

I'm not saying the above core is the correct composition, just that I'm picking the units to fill specific roles and you should probably look at what roles you want your core to accomplish and whether or not the units are right for those roles.

I think what would be best for you however, would be to make a couple of small changes to the list and then to see how it plays. That's the best way to learn.

Try going for just one extra unit of reavers and see how useful you find it and whether or not you feel you are still lacking for redirectors. If you keep most of the rest of the army the same, it will be easier to work out the effect of an individual alteration. You may find that you like the extra reaver unit but now your unit of only ~24 spearmen is too small to tarpit anything. You then can decide to go back to a larger unit of spearmen or perhaps get rid of them altogether. The point is it will be a more informed decision.

Hope this wall of text has at least some helpful ideas and keep in mind that I am not an expert (just somebody who spends way too much time thinking about warhammer) so take all of this with a grain of salt.
Gandalf_82
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#16 Post by Gandalf_82 »

Its always good to hear other peoples opinions and how they go about structuring their lists so definitely useful cheers. I had seen that the US masters was won with an interesting list that included spearmen. At the moment whilst I have so little painted I'll probably persevere with the spearmen just because they are painted and it always looks that bit better on the table. I'm not overly competitive, I just enjoy playing the game but obviously it is that much more fun to play in close games and pick up some wins.

I've got a game tomorrow and not sure what list I will be facing, so I'm going to just tweak the list slightly to fit in the second unit of reavers at the expense of a few spearmen and a tweak or two. I think chaff and the effective use of them is one of the weakest aspects of my play so the more practice I get with them the better.
Jimmy
Centurion
Posts: 3307
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:55 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#17 Post by Jimmy »

Good luck with tomorrows game! :)
Nec Sorte Nec Fato - Neither By Chance Nor Fate

X-wing Blog
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#18 Post by Ferny »

+1 on gaz's approach - it all comes down to what roles you need filling.

Spears certainly aren't terrible, but I think they often lose out when comparing what roles they offer to other units. In the US Masters he had a very specific role in mind for them and it worked solidly for him (although I admit I haven't quite wrapped my head around his list).
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
Gandalf_82
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#19 Post by Gandalf_82 »

Ferny wrote:+1 on gaz's approach - it all comes down to what roles you need filling.
That requires some tactical nous to know that! ;-)

But I definitely see the argument and agree with it. I'm torn between fielding units that are painted vs fielding a more competitive list. Certainly in my last few battles including last night the spearmen have done very little. Really what I need to do is paint a lot quicker! (and learn how to use them properly / settle on my role for them)

I'm working towards going to my first event at some point in the not too distant future (Realistically I expect next year), just something like a Throne of Skulls at GW to get me started. (Open to suggestions). So I think I'll need to persevere with them on that basis. All I've got painted in core is 12 archers (Badly!) and 31 spearmen, my first 5 reavers are probably next on the table. Then I'll paint up some more archers. I'm keen to get to an event that's for sure, just the army that's holding me back!

In special i'm slowly getting there with a unit of ~ 25 White Lions (Nearly 15 done), I've got 6 Dragon Princes painted and I've also got 15 Sword Masters but they were eBayed so I'm loathe to use them. They would do though and they fit my colour scheme.

In rare i've got 2 RBT's and a Flamespyre Phoenix painted.

In terms of options for what to paint to add to it - you name it, i've got it... I think the only thing I don't have are white lion chariots and i've only got one eagle. But i've got a dragon, 2 more RBT's, shadow warriors, Phoenix Guard, sisters, sword masters, silver helms (maybe 20 odd!) 2 chariots, 2 skycutters, a frosty in the box, mounted and unmounted characters etc! I think the other thing I could do with is about 6 months off work! ;-)
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#20 Post by Ferny »

Personally I don't think you can go wrong with reavers and helms in core, and for my money, if you're not running a bus, then more or less minimum 5-6 man squads for each. Then, depending on your build, you might want some archers too. Sea guard work fine but as they're more points expensive and have shorter range tend to be skipped for archers. Spears are cheap, armoured (lightly) and can have a banner...but don't fulfil a shooting role, and while they'll tear through scum troops they're vulnerable to everything else in a way which our elites are not so much. For me they struggle to find a role (especially with archers fighting in 3 ranks), but I recognise that in some builds they have one. So yeah - next up I'd paint some cav - which is also pleasingly quick compared to massed infantry units!

For quick points on table you might also want to paint up more RBT which fit with most list types. After that I guess it's really down to taste/speed/painting enjoyment :)
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
Gandalf_82
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#21 Post by Gandalf_82 »

Ferny wrote:Personally I don't think you can go wrong with reavers and helms in core, and for my money, if you're not running a bus, then more or less minimum 5-6 man squads for each. Then, depending on your build, you might want some archers too. Sea guard work fine but as they're more points expensive and have shorter range tend to be skipped for archers. Spears are cheap, armoured (lightly) and can have a banner...but don't fulfil a shooting role, and while they'll tear through scum troops they're vulnerable to everything else in a way which our elites are not so much. For me they struggle to find a role (especially with archers fighting in 3 ranks), but I recognise that in some builds they have one. So yeah - next up I'd paint some cav - which is also pleasingly quick compared to massed infantry units!

For quick points on table you might also want to paint up more RBT which fit with most list types. After that I guess it's really down to taste/speed/painting enjoyment :)

I think thats the way I'll go. I've definitely got plans to add a 3rd RBT sooner rather than later. I am going to have to get some helms on the to list though thats for sure!
Gandalf_82
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#22 Post by Gandalf_82 »

Last week I played a game against someone at my local club, not knowing what army I would be facing.

I tweaked my list from the previous week a little to fit in a unit of PG and a 2nd unit of Reavers. I decided to stick with Lore of Life on my Archmage after its success vs the Dark elves the week before.

High Elves 2.4K

Archmage Lvl 4 - Lore of Life
Book of Hoeth, Golden Crown of Atrazar

Mage Lvl 2 - Lore of High Magic
Dispel Scroll

Noble BSB
Shield of the Mrywyrm, Sword of Might


Core

16 Archers

5 Reavers with S&B

5 Reavers with S&B

25 Spearmen, Full Command


Special

10 Phoenix Guard - Champion and Standard Bearer

14 Sword Masters of Hoeth - Full Command

26 White Lions of Chrace - Full Command and Banner of the World Dragon

Rare

3 Eagle Claw Bolt Throwers

Frostheart Phoenix



Dwarves 2.4k

Runesmith - Rune of Stone, Rune of Spellbreaking, Fiery Ring of Thori

Thane BSB - Master Rune of Grungi, Master Rune of Spellbreaking, 2H Axe

Master Engineer - 2H weapon and Rune of Stome


Core

30 Warriors - 2h weapons, Musician and Standard

30 Warriors - 2h weapons

Special

27 Hammerers - Full Command

18 Irondrakes - Full Command, Trollhammer, 2* Rune of Slowness

Rare

Cannon - Rune of Forging

Grudge Thrower - Rune of Accuracy/Penetrating/Burning

Organ Gun

2 * Gyrocopters


Deployment

Image

I really didn't have a clue how to play this one. I've only played against the new Dwarves army book once and I didn't feel this was a good match up at all for my army. Spells were disastrous. I didn't roll a double so had regrowth, flesh to stone, dwellers and earthblood. No Throne of Vines! Which blew my plan of putting my Archmage in with the archers or PG out of the water (I felt I needed the BotWD ward to protect vs miscasts so I could 6 dice Dwellers). On my level 2 I got arcane unforging and soul quench.

I basically deployed with no great master plan in mind. My Phoenix was on the left behind the building as that was the only safe spot out of LoS of the cannon. I put a unit of reavers on the right to guard against the gyrocopter out there and other than that just tried to give my RBT's decent fields of fire and my combat units deployed centrally. The Sword Masters at the rear as I felt they were the most vulnerable to the Organ Gun. The archers I deployed out of range of the organ gun as well.

My opponent went for a usual Dwarven castle. War machines on the hill and everything defending it.


HE Turn 1

Image


I won the roll for turn 1. I think that was my last decent roll of the day!! I didnt have any tactics in mind more sophisticated than "Charge and hope for the best"

Everything pushed forward. The reavers reformed to be able to charge the organ gun in turn 2. The other reavers reformed to avoid a cannon ball down the flank wiping them all out.

Magic was 8 v 6. I cast flesh to stone on the reavers (In hindsight on the WL's would have been better perhaps).

I successfully cast Dwellers on the unit of 30 warriors without a miscast, so my opponent promplty destroyed the spell for the rest of the game with his spell breaking rune. Doh!


Dwarves Turn 1

Image


The Gyrocopter on my right shifted a bit further along behind the woods. The one on my left moved forward behind the building. Everything else shifted forward a little to stay in support of each other whilst blocking off the charge route for my reavers on the organ gun.

His cannon took out one of my bolt throwers. His grudge thrower very nearly took out another but succeeding in rolling a 1 to wound after a direct hit! Then the Organ gun unleashed an impressive 18 shots on my White Lions, killing 5.


HE2

Image

Knowing the warmachines were just going to continue to pummel my forces unless I did something about it I took a gamble here. Sending the reavers around the back (out of forward arc of the warriors just) and gambling with the Frostheart Phoenix.

Everything else shuffled to give me a chance of charges next turn but hopefully far enough out to avoid any dwarven charges in their turn 2.

Magic was an 11 v 6 winds. (Good for the Phoenix’s ward!). He dispelled regrowth on the WL’s. I cast flesh to stone on them though ready for another round of Organ gun fire. I then failed to cast arcane unforging on his thane BSB on 4 dice.

Shooting was disappointing. Only killing 1 warrior and 1 irondrake.

Dwarf 2

Image

Both Gyrocopters break cover as expected. Naively I’ve allowed the one on the right to just get out of the reavers forward arc so I cannot charge him next turn.

The Irondrakes combat reform to face the Frosty. Everything else shuffles back a little in true Dwarven defensive fashion.

The irondrakes make short work of the Frosty. The Trollhammer alone doing 3 wounds. Epic dice rolling for the ward saves there. (Missed all 4+ ward saves bar maybe 1!!)

His cannon kills my second bolt thrower on the hill which proves enough for my archers, who can clearly see this is not going to be our day and run for the hills.

The grudge thrower makes short work of 7 spearmen and the organ gun sees off 2 of the sword masters.


HE3

Image

The White Lions make an inspired charge on the hammerers (the picture is a little off, they needed and rolled 10” to get in). The PG and spearmen fail their charges. The reavers on the right pull back to protect the last bolt thrower. The other reavers get in behind his line.

Magic just when it was needed is a 5 v 4. He uses his dispel rune to dispel earthblood and his dice, flesh to stone.

The reavers manage to wound the Gyrocopter on the right. The Bolt Thrower misses when aiming at the other one.

Combat is nothing short of a disaster. The White Lions roll 3 fours to hit from 13 dice!! My opponent on the other hand manages 16 out of 20… I lost something like 10-12 white lions and my mage, if not more for the loss of just 4 hammerers. The WL’s held due to stubborn but enough was enough.

At this point it was all over so I conceded.

That’s about as big a beating as I’ve been on the end of. I don’t really see how I could have played it massively differently to alter the outcome. Suggestions welcome. I was right to risk moving the frosty on turn 2? Losing Dwellers like I did was a real blow but really I needed a more offensive lore for that game. I had nothing to really get at his war machines. (He entrenched the OG btw which is why I chose to shoot at the GT in turn one)

One quick question, rune of forging, my opponent can re-roll a misfire on either the first dice or the bounce? That’s just so annoying. Bolt Throwers stand no chance!! :(
gaz
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:03 am

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#23 Post by gaz »

Hmm, tough game (I agree that this is a hard matchup for your army).

I think you might have been better off charging the WL into one of the warriors units instead of the hammerers (hammerers are nasty).
Seems like there would have been a decent chance of you breaking a warriors unit in a couple of rounds of cc and opening up that castle.
You would have had to be concerned about counter charges (from the hammerers in particular) and that is where the reavers come in. (I think it is a bit of a waste trying to use them to protect your bolt throwers).

It seemed a bit like you were trying to go for all his stuff at once and I think you'd probably have been better off focusing on breaking one part of the castle to start off with.

That said I am (thankfully) inexperienced against the dwarf castle so I'm not sure.

Thanks for the report and I hope you have better luck next time.
Gandalf_82
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#24 Post by Gandalf_82 »

Yeah I think by the time of that last charge I was resigned to defeat anyway, so I was thinking I'll try and go out with a bang. I do think tactically I'd have been better off charging the warriors. I was just thinking if I am going to manage to break the hammerers in this game it needed to be that turn before I lost too many more WL's.
It seemed a bit like you were trying to go for all his stuff at once and I think you'd probably have been better off focusing on breaking one part of the castle to start off with.
Fair point. Especially when you consider they only have a 3" move / 6" march so are pretty slow to react. I'll keep that and your point regarding the Reavers in mind when we have a rematch in the next few weeks.

Next up for me next week is a game against the tomb kings. Never played them before and apparently my opponent usually takes a couple of Sphinx's.

Any basic pointers appreciated!

P.S Cheers for moving me to army blogs whoever did that! Happy with that. I think i'll add a bit of a painting log too at some point in here.
User avatar
Curu Olannon
Vindicated Strategist
Posts: 4929
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#25 Post by Curu Olannon »

Gandalf_82 wrote: P.S Cheers for moving me to army blogs whoever did that! Happy with that. I think i'll add a bit of a painting log too at some point in here.

That would be me ;) thanks for an interesting report vs Dwarfs! Detailed review and feedback will come tomorrow :)
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#26 Post by Ferny »

Definitely a tough match up. I think to a certain extent tactics vs dwarf castles are: march up and hope to weather the storm!

You did well to mostly contain the gyrocopters/your opponent didn't manage to capitalise on them. You also did well keeping your light cav alive so long!

I agree that hammerers are a poor match up for lions and warriors would have been better...and if you take a flank charge from hammerers next turn, just suck it up. You're stubborn and at least it'd block LoS from the cannon (albeit not too many good cannon targets by that point).

I think your pheonix gamble was sensible given the circumstances, though I wonder whether you could have placed it in such a location where a cannon shot would be impossible (risk of hitting own troops) and BS shooting would suffer hard cover, leaving only the grudge thrower to have to save (and even then, it distracts this most deadly of war machines from your oncoming infantry)? Possibly such a sweet spot doesn't exist within 20" range, it's hard to tell at a distance.

I wonder whether you could have used PG to shield remaining infantry, even if only from organ gun?

Which war machines were runed? Your BOTWD unit would be fairly safe from them.

An alternative approach (possibly depending on range of grudgethrower is to counter-castle and sit out the game for 6 turns. If your opponent complains of a boring game blame them for a boring list!

I'm afraid that's all I can offer - tough list at the best of times!
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
User avatar
Curu Olannon
Vindicated Strategist
Posts: 4929
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#27 Post by Curu Olannon »

Okidokey time for analysis. First of all, I want to start with the army list. In general, I think Life is a bad idea. It is hugely spell selection dependent for one. You can see a long discussion about this in my former blog (link in signature) where I played an L4 Archmage for some time as I was learning 8th and re-learning Warhammer. It pretty much boils down to you wanting 4 spells: Throne, Flesh, Regrowth, Dwellers. If you miss one of these you lack flexibility. If you miss two you`re practically down to one important spell per phase to stop for your opponent. Furthermore, Life is very hit-or-miss: against some armies Dwellers is fantastic, against others it`s almost useless. So basically you`re set up for a game where magic can outright win, or do nothing. Huge variance, hence my dislike for Life. Do note that there are some noteworthy exceptions, Furion`s using it to great effect with his cavbus for example. In this case, it has to do with the signature spell being very useful and Lifebloom being a key element to the list. For your army, this is not the case: all units are infantry based and single-wounds (apart from Frosty) and the only big unit sports the BOTWD.

Secondly, High Magic on your support mage. While I can see the appeal of Soul Quench being defaultable and +3 being nice, I feel it is too situational to warrant an L2 taking it. The rest of the lore is also quite hit-or-miss, unfortunately. Apotheosis is very situational, tempest is useless and Arcane requires a lot of dice. I`d much rather have a backup lore with a devastating signature (Heavens, Shadow, Metal, depending on your preference) and take the Ring of Fury for Soul Quench.

Lastly on the topic of characters I think the BSB loadout is a waste. Regardless of how you kit him out, he is squishy on foot. Thus, I believe he should either be mounted to be combat-oriented, or played with a magic banner/Reaver Bow + PoS on foot. An exception here is the PG deathstar of course, but even that is a risky play in a lot of situations.

Judging from your list, I`d say L4 Shadow or Heavens is a good choice here, with backup from preferably Heavens (double Iceshard is fantastic) or Shadow (miasma is great in all stages of the game).

Core: I don`t really see the point in Spears any longer, unless they are sporting a magic banner and have a specific role to fulfil. You can basically just take Archers and just use them as Spears if necessary, see RE. Lee`s recent report against Dwarfs for example. Also, Reavers tend to die so equipping them with both bow and spear is giving away free points: do you really feel it is necessary to have both? In my experience the spears are almost always useless.

Special & rare: The infantry configuration is peculiar. It`s a mix between MMU and MSU which I believe is odd. Our infantry needs a goal to work together effectively. In MSU, the idea is to swarm the enemy. You do not currently have enough units to do so, nor are PG especially well suited for this role. In MMU (think 20-ish big), the goal is to get 2 units in together, preferably in your own turn so that magic can assist them. The way it is now, I`m guessing you frequently find PG underperforming, Swordmasters mediocre at best and Lions hit-or-miss. This is natural, because PG are too small to be effective, SM are too easy to neutralize and Lions are left without the necessary support, in some cases winning because the unit is simply inherently strong, in others failing because you`re asking too much of them.

I like the rare setup very much, you have board control and a unit which can combine very well with your infantry.

Ok, so that was quite a bit of theory first. I think it`s important to clarify this as I will try and connect my report feedback to what I`ve written above.

Deployment
I`m counting a lot more drops on your side than his. This ensures that you can get the important stuff where you need it, but unfortunately I think you (partially) failed to do so. The most important thing against a gunline is to minimize the distance you have to cross to get at it. Your Spearmen and Swordmasters have terrible positions and even the Lions aren`t directly across from him. The Lions should`ve been in front of the Archers with the Swordmasters on their flank (single-file) with PG (single-file) in front to provide hard cover. Spears should be roughly where Lions were. Vanguarding the Reavers in my opinion was highly unnecessary: these will be crucial later on (as you have no Eagles) and a good player should target them instantly with his Organ Gun.

Early game
You were lucky to grab first turn and went full speed ahead. Note how useless your magic is here: as soon as Dwellers is stopped there is nothing you can do. Adding insult to injury, the spell is lost. Also note that Dwellers here actually isn`t a fantastic spell. Well it`s kind of good against war machines as it instantly kills them, but it`s hugely expensive and risky. My proposed lores would let you pummel him with Withering, Pit, Miasma or Comet, Iceshard, Chain Lightning - a much more versatile selection which poses a greater threat to his list than Life ever could (and you`ll find if you analyze all matchups that this is typically true). Also note that a backup mage with Shadow/Heavens would have a great signature here: Iceshard halves the damage output of a non-BS war machine whereas miasma is truly devastating against Irondrakes and the Organ Gun.

Note that after T1, your units are in a very awkward spot to do anything useful: this is all because of the skewed deployment. If you had been directly across him, you could`ve marched up T2 and blocked Warriors out with Reavers, focus-targeting the Hammerers. Ouch!

T2 - The Phoenix Gambit. Given the position I elaborated on above, this risk is huge, and unnecessary. If you could have marched another 10" directly towards his Hammerers (and thus been at a 4" distance with your WL), we could have discussed this, however it currently represents no hard decisions on your opponent`s part. He simply has to target it with whatever it takes as there are no other imminent threats. Irondrakes hurt a LOT as you found out, so if you want to make a move like this at least ensure the Phoenix gets some cover, is at long range or out of their range/LoS. Again note how useless Life is here, there is nothing you can do to help your bird save for Flesh to Stone: in most phases an opponent can dispel one spell of their choice. Also, the range is an issue. With Shadow on the other hand he faces a dilemma: Withering on Hammerers + Pit on a war machine + miasma on Irondrakes. Now what does he do? Assuming Heavens on the backup mage we suddenly have Iceshard on the Irondrakes as well. Do you see my point here?

Midgame

You make a big gamble with the T3 charges but lose. Again, you`re asking too much from your Lions. Your spears are no-where near meaningful combat (which simply doesn`t exist for them against Dwarfs to be honest) and the other elites aren`t capable of helping you out. Magic: the lack of threats earlier sees a scroll still intact, which disables the crucial phase. Even with Earthblood you would`ve lost big. Perhaps you could have broken him with Flesh to Stone.

Lions vs Hammerers is very even. As long as there are enough Lions and the amount of models per rank is the same, you trade equally many attacks, all hitting on 4s and killing on 2s. As the numbers whittle down the Dwarfs get an advantage from 2A being better than martial prowess, but then again we strike at I5 while they are ASL. My point is that this is hard matchup without support. When you get Lions without supporting units or magic into Hammerers, you`re usually in trouble.

Evaluation

Poor magic matchup and deployment were, in my opinion, the key elements for your loss here. With a direct deploy across from his Hammerers and a stronger lore, I think this is a matchup you should usually expect to win. I`m assuming that you want your Lions to stay in the list and keep the overall feel, so let`s take a look at a sample list development:

Archmage L4 Shadow Book of Hoeth
Mage L2 Heavens Scroll
BSB Reaver Bow / Potion of Strength

Core:
15 Archers, muso
2x5 Reavers, bows
20 Archers, muso

Special:
26 WL, FC, BOTWD
22 PG, FC, Razor Standard

Rare:
3 RBT
Frostheart Phoenix

Ok so this is interesting: your main caster will always get 2 useful spells (assuming you want miasma, withering, pit it`s practically impossible not to) while your backup mage always gets Iceshard (fantastic, especially against Dwarfs) and has a 44% chance of getting Comet (one of the best spells in the game - if not THE best - against gunlines). If he doesn`t, the lore is packed with strong options. Your core can actually put some pressure on his war machines now: 40 Archers at long range = 20 hits, which averages over 3 wounds (!). This is before considering the BSB. The beauty of this is that with withering, his infantry suddenly fears your shooting: even a normal hail of arrows can be disastrous for his combat strength.

Your PG + SM have been melted to a single unit here, which can better assist the Lions and benefit from combat buffs/hexes. They have a relatively small footprint but hurt a lot against just about any infantry unit in the game (the PG don`t like Witchelves though ^^). This allows tighter deployment and tandem-work throughout the game.

Overall I hope I`ve given you some food for thought here, both with the list discussions and the BR feedback ;)
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::
Gandalf_82
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#28 Post by Gandalf_82 »

Curu Olannon wrote: Overall I hope I`ve given you some food for thought here, both with the list discussions and the BR feedback ;)
That's fantastic feedback thanks Curu. I really appreciate you taking the time to reply in such depth! :D

I'll be giving the guy a rematch at some point within the next few weeks and I'll take the list you've suggested. I like your arguments behind the lores to take on my mages (I've enjoyed and had success using shadow in the past the couple of times i've tried it I must admit) and definitely agree with having one bigger unit of PG rather than a smaller unit and the SM's. I can see how that list has so much more going for it than the one I took for that game.

I can't argue with your views on the mistakes I made both in deployment and during the game either. I'll keep that in mind for the next game.

The spearmen are going to have to be dropped. I've just got to bite the bullet, accept that and get painting some more archers and reavers! I am still very much at the stage of trying things out to settle on a list I am happy with. I played a game this week where I dropped the spearmen, archmage and PG and took a 4th bolt thrower, a Loremaster and one bigger unit of SM's so I'll write that up at some point soon.
Gandalf_82
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#29 Post by Gandalf_82 »

Ferny wrote:Definitely a tough match up. I think to a certain extent tactics vs dwarf castles are: march up and hope to weather the storm!

You did well to mostly contain the gyrocopters/your opponent didn't manage to capitalise on them. You also did well keeping your light cav alive so long!

I agree that hammerers are a poor match up for lions and warriors would have been better...and if you take a flank charge from hammerers next turn, just suck it up. You're stubborn and at least it'd block LoS from the cannon (albeit not too many good cannon targets by that point).

I think your pheonix gamble was sensible given the circumstances, though I wonder whether you could have placed it in such a location where a cannon shot would be impossible (risk of hitting own troops) and BS shooting would suffer hard cover, leaving only the grudge thrower to have to save (and even then, it distracts this most deadly of war machines from your oncoming infantry)? Possibly such a sweet spot doesn't exist within 20" range, it's hard to tell at a distance.

I wonder whether you could have used PG to shield remaining infantry, even if only from organ gun?

Which war machines were runed? Your BOTWD unit would be fairly safe from them.

An alternative approach (possibly depending on range of grudgethrower is to counter-castle and sit out the game for 6 turns. If your opponent complains of a boring game blame them for a boring list!

I'm afraid that's all I can offer - tough list at the best of times!
The Organ gun wasn't runed, the other two were.

There wasn't much else I could do with the Phoenix to improve the odds of him staying alive without keeping him in cover. If I played it again I think i'd have tried to get him into a combat with the WL's rather than gamble in such a way. At the least that would've drawn fire from the war machines to help get more of my troop into combat. It wouldn't have been too hard to keep to the right out of range of those iron drakes. Still, all part of the learning curve! :-)
Gandalf_82
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Gandalf_82's Battle Log

#30 Post by Gandalf_82 »

I've played quite a few games lately but not really had the spare time to write them up. Have preferred to pick up the paint brush instead but I will try and get back into it at some point.

In the main I've been doing quite well, in my last 2 games I've smashed 2 different orc lists. I wondered what people thought of this list for 2.5k? For 2.4k I think i'd probably trim a couple of archers, maybe the razor standard or a few WL's and PG.

I tend to play quite defensively, trying to use magic and shooting to weaken my opponent up before committing to combats. I've had a fair bit of success using the reavers as diversions/distractions generally causing a nuisance and more than justifying their points. So thats to the numerous people who've put pointers up on these boards on how to get the best from them! :D

I've got the SH's in as a bit of a rapid relief force. I try and deploy them so they have the flexibility to help plug any weak points in my line rather than use them aggressively.

Lords (285pts)

Archmage (285pts)
Level 4 Wizard (35pts), Lore of Shadow
Magic Items (65pts)
(AB) Book of Hoeth (55pts), (AB) Golden Crown of Atrazar (10pts)
Heroes (285pts)

Mage (145pts)
High Magic, Level 2 Wizard (35pts)
Magic Items (25pts)
(BRB) Dispel Scroll (25pts)
Noble (140pts)
Battle Standard (25pts), Dragon Armor (10pts)
Magic Items (35pts)
(AB) Shield of the Myrwyrm (15pts), (BRB) Sword of Might (20pts)
Core (630pts)

Archers (180pts)
18x Archer (180pts), Longbow
Ellyrian Reavers (95pts)
Elven Steed, Light Armor
5x Ellyrian Reaver (95pts)
5x Spears and Bows (15pts)
Ellyrian Reavers (95pts)
Elven Steed, Light Armor
5x Ellyrian Reaver (95pts)
5x Spears and Bows (15pts)
Silver Helms (260pts)
Elven Steed, Heavy Armor, High Helm (10pts), Ithilmar Barding, Lance, Musician (10pts), Standard Bearer (10pts)
10x Silver Helm (230pts)
10x Shield (20pts)
Special (780pts)

Phoenix Guard (375pts)
Halberd, Heavy Armor, Keeper of the Flame (10pts), Musician (10pts), 20x Phoenix Guard (300pts)
Standard Bearer (55pts)
(BRB) Razor Standard (45pts)
White Lions of Chrace (405pts)
Great Weapon, Guardian (10pts), Heavy Armor, Lion Cloak, Musician (10pts), 25x White Lion (325pts)
Standard Bearer (60pts)
(AB) Banner of the World Dragon (50pts)
Rare (520pts)

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (70pts)
Light Armor
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (70pts)
Light Armor
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (70pts)
Light Armor
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (70pts)
Light Armor
Frostheart Phoenix (240pts)
Post Reply