Axiem's Battle Blog - 4 Mini + Youtube Battle Reports

[wamphyri101]

Chumphammer are bar Nick

I'll be down, with ogres again lol

Scenarios too tasty for the ogres

About to start work on the elves again for bringing back to the field next year plus USA masters

[Axiem]

Chumphammer are bar Nick
I'll be down, with ogres again lol
Scenarios too tasty for the ogres

Just found out I won't be able to make it - in the process of a move, so that has to take priority unfortunately. I'll wish you luck now! Knock 'em dead!

Hi there Axiem, I really liked that YouTube batrep you've posted vs. the new Dwarfs and I also like the way you approach competitive WHFB gaming. Any chance of seeing more YT batreps like that? It's really hard to find batreps from competitive players speaking with a fine voice & accent playing with your favorite army (spoilers: it's High Elves)!

Glad you enjoyed, and yes! I started doing the Youtube reports at a really busy time so that kind of crimped the progress. Additionally, I got some very useful feedback regarding them; especially that people wanted to see completely painted armies, so I've been holding off since then, frantically re-painting my army after stripping it. I'm in the process of a move as well, which has only complicated things however, I'm going to be in a more active gaming area following it, so more to come in the future!

Here's what I would take instead of the list you've posted though:

Archmage, Level 4, Lore of Shadow, Book of Hoeth
Noble, BSB, Barded Elven Steed, Dawnstone, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield
Handmaiden of the Everqueen, Reaver Bow, Potion of Strength
Mage, Level 1, High Magic, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Trinket (MR1)
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap)
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows (swap)
7 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician, Standard Bearer
26 Spearmen, FC, Banner of Eternal Flame
23 Phoenix Guard, FC, Razor Standard
20 White Lions of Chrace, FC, Banner of the World Dragon
3 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
14 Sisters of Avelorn

I like it - and I may end up using it instead of the one I listed. I'm not a big fan of Shadow, which is why I held off from it originally, but it is very likely to be the best lore for this list, given the Spearmen and Phoenix Guard especially. Will give it some thought for sure.

Good luck and please post those batreps with the Anointed on Flamespyre soon!

I'll try to have them up by Monday-Tuesday time, so keep an eye out!

Axiem

[Axiem]

Warning: Wall of Text Incoming

Alright, this is to be a long one, so I’ll break it down bit by bit. First, I want to address my current thought on list-building, then move onto how some of the builds in the ETC altered this, and finally close with some of the lists I’m planning to play in the future. I’m also going to specifically be focusing on the Anointed on Flamespyre/Frostheart Phoenix setup and talk about what I feel can be done to increase it’s competitiveness in both comped and uncombed environments, as I feel this was the most interesting innovation to come from the 2014 ETC Lists.

a. List Building (Prior to ETC 2014 Lists)

Basically, my thoughts on this matter are divided into three categories. They are as follows: Core setups, Character setups, and Element setups. The first two categories should be fairly self-explanatory but the final description bares some explaining. When I’m referring to Elements, I’m really talking about two things: Combat Elements and Support Elements.

Of these, the first is referring to non-Core options which I consider combat-worthy in the current global-meta (so I wouldn’t be putting units of MSU Dragon Princes or the like in here - a setup like that would generally fly in the face of the meta) while the second refers to both the shooting and fighting elements that help support the Combat Elements above.

i. Core setups

Prior to reading through the ETC lists, I considered the following to be the “strongest” setup for core for a 2500 point game (without going over in core majorly):

18 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command, 444
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bow Swap, Champion, 95
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Champion, 90

If I had the extra points, I would also generally swap the spears for bows in the second unit of Reavers.

The reasoning behind considering this setup the strongest, basically boils down to a single fact: that of all the Core setups (that don’t overspend the min 625 by much) this is the one that gives the strongest combat single Core unit and it’s paired with support units that directly contribute to this element achieving it’s goals. It’s a nice little package that is completely self-sustaining and regardless of what else is in the list (within reason), it manages to function quite well on it’s own.

This kinda of setup, like all Core setups, does inherently make certain other elements in the army more and less viable. A Cavalry character setup for instance, becomes the natural result of taking so many mounted models in Core and meshes very well to cover potential threats to the Helm Bus. By necessity then, such a setup downplays other choices which don’t directly help fill any holes the Helms might have and do better when they have more specialized character setups, usually magic-heavy.

I also have historically shied away from taking all Helms in Core (particularly 15-5-5) specifically because I’ve found misdirectors such an important part of all-comers play, especially when trying to tackle such list as double-Steam-Tank-Empire lists.

There is also a final point to bring up here, which is that of all our supporting elements, our Core are perhaps our weakest options (hence why it’s often referred to as a “tax” for High Elves). When it comes to shooting, Bolt Throwers, Sisters, and even Shadow Warriors perform better (for the points) than Archers in nearly all circumstances. If Core wasn’t a required element, I wouldn’t ever take Archers in any list, particularly because the aforementioned don't detract from other elements while Archers do (mainly, the Helm Bus, our only real Core Combat Element). Similarly, when it comes to combat-support, it’s basically down to Spears and Helms and, in both cases, I would rather have Elites, Characters, or Phoenixes filling these roles instead, if I was able.

This kind of thinking leads to a few very specific, yet very natural setups. They look something like this:

Core: Fill with Helm Bus, Reavers. Rare: Bolt Throwers, Phoenix. Special: Elites
Core: Fill with MSU Helms, Reavers. Rare Bolt Throwers, Phoenix. Special: Elites

As opposed to:

Core: Fill with Archers, Reavers. Rare: Bolt Throwers, 2 Phoenix
Core: Fill with Archers, Reavers. Rare: Few Bolt Throwers, Phoenix. Special: Elites
Core: Fill with Archers, Reavers/Helms. Rare: Bolt Throwers. Special: Elites

The difference here is that by filling Core with Helms and Reavers, you’re not forced to choose between Phoenix and Bolt Throwers if you also want Elites. This tends to encourage an army that is both incredibly versatile and effective, because the choices which have been selected are the best in their relative classes (or the combined selections are better than the combined alternatives).

Here’s another way of looking at it.

ii. Element Setups

In terms of ranged support, here’s a breakdown of what I consider to be the best (in an all-comers environment, playing a “standard” list):

First 2 Bolt Throwers > 10-15 Sisters = Remaining 2 Bolt Throwers > 10-15 Sisters (remaining; out of ~25 total) > Archers > Shadow Warriors = Lothern Skycutters

The reasoning here is that Core shooting is much worse than the shooting that I would take in Rare anyway, for the points and the only reason Archers are higher than Shadow Warriors/Skycutters here is that Archers fill Core.

In terms of combat support, here’s a breakdown of what I consider to be the best:

First Frostheart Phoenix > 2 units of 5-7 Helms = Second Frostheart Phoenix >> 5-7 Dragon princes > 2-3 Reavers w/ Spears > next 2 units of 5-7 Helms > Chariots > next 2+ units of Reavers w/ Spears

The reasoning here is that Core combat-support (Helms) is generally much worse than taking Frostheart Phoenixes, but allows for extra points in Rare to include up to 4 Bolt Throwers (and potentially Sisters as well), which prevents the list from being overly deprived in shooting. In either case, both setups allow for full saturation in Special, without compromising (as Dragon Princes and Chariots would) which allows for additional combat units to be purchased in reasonable numbers.

There’s also a necessary note here that this is comparing combat-strengths: Reavers obviously fill a different role, which is why they are so far down on the list in terms of combat-support (their main goal usually isn’t to charge things, and if they do, it’s usually a secondary objective).

All that being said, and even though I consider other setups equally competitive, or perhaps more, depending on the environment, a Cavalry-heavy Core seems to enable the most-optimized setups in the rest of the list in an all-comers environment, given the current meta.

iii. Character-Setups

I’ll be talking about this more later (see the bit on Spanish ETC list below), and this is the part of the meta I feel is the least defined at the moment. As such, my comments will be less tangible in this section.

With character setups, besides the obvious inclusion of Cavalry Lords/Heroes, there seems to really only be one-other blatantly obvious choice that supports a Cavalry-heavy Core, that being Monsters. The Star Dragon has long been a strong, and popular, option when playing High Elves, both historically and in this edition, but has been hit hard by the rise of Cannon-armies and magic. This makes it, while a strong option, an unreliable one as statistical averages cannot protect the character nor the mount from multiple cannon shots or threatening spells. This of course gives some merit to the Anointed, with option of Flamespyre and Frostheart Phoenix, and I’ll be talking about those setups in a later section.

Notably however, there is one character setup that doesn’t particularly pair well with Core-heavy Cavalry: that being magic-heavy setups like double Level Fours, Loremaster-Light Covens, and other similar setups. Generally speaking, in such lists the Core is generally a delaying element, which isn’t looking to kill (as many) things so much as it is looking to buy time for the heavy magic to take its toll or remove the field of misdirectors, a stand-offish strategy that a Knight-bus doesn’t exactly encourage. In such setups, Archers and Reavers become more important because they are cheap, disposable, and numerous. They aren’t, however, as effective Combat/Shooting support Elements in their own right, which is to say there are better selections, for the points, if you were looking to fill those roles elsewhere or in other combinations.

Let me close this section by saying there are many assumptions in here, some obvious, others not, and a few of which, I am not wholly convinced by. This blog acts both as a place to share information and a sounding board for my own ideas, so don’t take any of the above as too hard-fast to be infallible. If you have any questions about such assumptions, please don’t hesitate to post them, and I’ll do my best to expand and explain them.

——

That’s my current train of thought just generally on the state of High Elves, the meta, and setups prior to taking the deep dive on the 2014 ETC lists.

I suppose before I go further I should also make note of why I consider the ETC such a good resource for analysis. The answer is simple: the competitive nature of the ETC, the wide array of participants, and the calibre of it’s players represents perhaps the best culmination of Warhammer thought and potential analysis available. That by no means makes their findings definitive, but it does prove an interesting petri-dish to examine.

b. ETC Lists

i. Interesting Lists

First, I’m going to pick out some of the lists that were interesting and innovative to me. They are as follows:

Team Australia (Light Coven):

Loremaster Of Hoeth: General, Lvl 2, Heavy Armour, Great Weapon, Warrior Bane, Shield of the Merwyrm, Earthing Rod, 275
Archmage: Lvl 4 light, Power stone, 240
Lothern Sea Helm: BSB, Light armour, Shield, Hand Weapon, Spear, Bow, Talisman of preservation, 170
Mage: Lvl 1 light, Dispell Scroll, 110

17 Archers: Musician, 180
16 Archers: Musician, 170
2x 5 Silver Helms: Musician, Shields, 2x 125

27 White Lions of Chrace: FCG, Banner of the World Dragon, 431

4x 1 Repeat Bolt Thrower: 4x 70
1 Great Eagle: 50
1 Frostheart Phoenix: 240

Total: 2400

ETC Light Coven, invented by the Swedes last year, with some minor changes. The inclusion of the Talisman of Preservation (instead of Standard of Discipline) on the Sea Helm makes sense given the Wood Elf snipers. A Coven is of my one of favorite lists to play, both in ETC and uncomped environments, but there isn’t anything here that’s particularly ground-breaking versus last year, which was already analyzed a fair bit.


Team Austria. Team Poland (Anointed on Phoenix):

Anointed of Asuryan on Frostheart Phoenix: General, Giant Blade, The other Trickster's Shard, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Enchanted Shield 540
Noble: BSB, The Reaver Bow, Shield of the Merwyrm, 135
Mage: Lvl 2, High Magic, Dispel Scroll, 145
Mage: Lvl 2, High Magic, Sceptre of Stability, 135

3x 5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bows, 85
3x 5 Silver Helms: Shields, 115

24 White Lions of Chrace: FCG, Banner of the World Dragon, 392

3x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower: 70
Frostheart Phoenix: 240

Total: 2397

Anointed of Asuryan on Flamespyre Phoenix: General, Heavy Armour, Halberd, Enchanted Shield, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, 530 
Noble on Elven Steed: BSB, Ithilmar Barding, Heavy Armour, Shield, Spear, Banner of the World Dragon, 168 
Noble on Elven Steed: Ithilmar Barding, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Ogre Blade, 141 
Mage on Elven Steed: Lvl 2, High Magic, Dispel Scroll, Ironcourse Icon, 160 
Mage on Elven Steed: Lvl 2, High Magic, 130 

16 Silver Helms: FCG, Shields, 398 
2x 6 Silver Helms: Champion, Shields, 2x 148 

1 Frostheart Phoenix, 240 
1 Great Eagle: Shredding Talons, 55 
4x 1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower: 4x 70 

Total: 2398

The major differences here being Helm Bus versus Lion Horde and whether or not the Heroes are mounted. The Polish list also follows the very same formula as a Star Dragon list (it’s very much a swap for Anointed and use points for 4th Bolt Thrower) while the Austrian list has quite a different feel. I’ll touch on the Frostheart vs. Flamespyre later, but for now lets assume that each choice is equal, or nearly equal, based on play style and accompanying list differences.

Both these lists stand out because of their obvious inclusion of a mounted Anointed, a choice that has largely been overlooked in tournament play. Beyond that, the only other really striking difference is the Core. Where Poland went used it’s core to fill a combat role, Austria has elected to use it in a much more supporting manner. The differences here are worth noting, and I’ll discuss them more later.


Team Spain (Foot Prince + Knight Bus)

Prince: General, Shield of the Merwyrm, Giant Blade, OTS, 230
Archmage: Lv4, High, Talisman of Preservation, DispelScroll, Khaine's Ring of Fury, 315
Noble on Barded Steed: BSB, Dragon Armour, Lance, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Potion of Strenght, 176
Noble on Barded Steed: Heavy Armour, GW, Star Lance, Dragonhelm, Potion of Foolhardiness, Luckstone, 143

13 Silver Helms: FCM, Shield, 329
5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bow Swap, 85
2x 5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bow, 95

27 White Lions of Crace: FCM, Banner of the World Dragon, 431

3x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower: 70
Frostheart Phoenix: 240
Great Eagle: 50

2399

This was, IMO, the most interesting list of the bunch, even over the Anointed lists. I find it very interesting that Spain was able to include a reasonable Knight Bus, a White Lion Horde, and a fully-fleshed Rare selection to support it, and squeeze a Foot Prince into the mix as well. The combination of elements in this list means there really isn’t a soft point for the enemy to exploit, and provides a nice combination of speed and sustainability.



If I didn’t pick out a list as being innovative, it generally fell into one of three categories: Cav Bus (either Helm or Dragon Prince), All-Comers Elites with Magic Support (4+4, 4+2, 4+Loremaster), or Star Dragon. While there are slight, and interesting, discrepancies between the lists, all three of these forms are generally well understood and, as I pointed out on the ETC thread, wouldn’t be out of place in any tournament in the UK/US. I don’t feel the above four however follow that rule.

I also picked out some minor points, which I’ll touch on briefly.

> Sceptre of Stability made an appearance in quite a few lists. Since noting this, I’ve been running with it in nearly all my lists and am actually quite fond of it, based on my spell selection. With Lores where I don’t need Book of Hoeth, I now feel comfortable taking the Sceptre instead and using those points elsewhere.
> High Magic was an incredibly well-represented Lore across all the lists. I’ve never felt that it took advantage of Book of Hoeth nearly enough and so usually took BRB Lores, but with my inclusion of Sceptre of Stability above, I feel more comfortable running it. Also notable, there was zero Shadow Magic being used, even with combat-Elite armies, which speaks to a shift in the Meta (as well as comp, perhaps indirectly).
> Nearly all the lists reinforce my statement above that Bolt Throwers make the best support shooting, with every list including them, often instead of Archers at all. The vast majority of lists also included Helms + Reavers, although not all of them took Helm-Busses, especially those which were magic-heavy or Elite heavy.


ii. Idea Integration & Flamespyre versus Frostheart

I’m going to ignore the Coven list for the time being, specifically because I spent quite a while dissecting the Swedish list last year, and feel it’s also the easiest of the four to understand. That leaves the Foot Prince list and the two Anointed lists.

1. Spain

Starting with the Spanish list, I want to direct the conversation towards Characters specifically. The Core setup is fairly conventional, taking Helms and Reavers, and the Special and Rare choices certainly aren’t any more outlandish. The real magic here is taking place in Heroes and Lords.

Even last year, the foot Prince was being tossed around in testing however he didn’t make an appearance in any of the final ETC lists. Prior to the US Master, I wasn’t aware of anyone making such a character work in a competitive field (winning any large tournament with such a character). It seems something has changed in this regards to at least make the foot Prince a contender.

In my last few battle reports, you can see my attempts at making both a Foot Prince and Foot Anointed work in wake of Justin’s success at the Masters (albeit, in a very different way), particularly in foot-heavy Elite lists, where I feel they help to directly counter threats which otherwise threaten or tarpit our Elites. In the case of both character setups, I spent a lot of points invested in Core to support them, but in neither case was I able to supplement my foot elements with a Helm Bus, let alone accompanying characters. Because of this, I felt I wasn’t spending points well (in Archers instead of Bolt Throwers; Spearmen instead of Elites) and that I was fighting uphill battles.

The inclusion of a Helm Bus as Spain’s list shows, allows for a well-saturated Rare, complete with Phoenix, 3 Bolt Throwers, and an Eagle: enough to certainly compliment the existing Reavers in Core. Similarly, it doesn’t feel strapped for points, except perhaps in taking a second Mage to support (missing in this list) which could be added at the cost of a Bolt Thrower + Eagle or the Frosty (saving points for elsewhere) or simply included in 2500 point variants..

One last point to touch on before moving to the Anointed lists is that the Spanish list could easily be readjusted to fill with Phoenix Guard in Special, instead of Lions. Based on meta-concerns, small adjustments could be made, like moving Banner of the World Dragon onto the BSB and the Lions becoming Phoenix Guard, creating a very potent point-denial list that can grind quite well and either push up, or play passively. I’m very curious to play more with this list, and will post thoughts following this writeup (sometime in the future!).

2. Austria and Poland

Let me start by saying, I feel that both the Anointed Lists could potentially have been stronger, at least in my opinion, and I like each for different reasons. Primarily, the Polish list appeals to me because it looks very similar to a Star Dragon list and thus should play similarly without too much difficulty. However, I much prefer Austria’s inclusion of the White Lions when considering an all-comers environment. Not only does such an inclusion make the list feel more stable and well rounded, but it would allow for greater tactical diversity (as opposed to “push up”) and would help proportionally more in non-ETC tournament play. That being said, I dislike the Core selection of the Austrian player.

Generally, in an ETC environment, where player match ups can be determined before hand and point denial is more important, I would rate the Polish list as being better, while in an all-comers environment, I would rate the Austrian list as being stronger. I do however feel there is a middle ground here.

Part of this middle ground has to do with the choice of Anointed mounts, Flamespyre versus Frostheart Phoenix. First, lets talk about them differences generally: the Flamespyre is more of a flexible, point-conserving mount, which has the possibility for additional tactical uses while the Frostheart is much more “point-and-click,” closer resembling Star Dragon play styles. However, in both cases, neither is equal in hitting power to a Star Dragon, which means you won’t be taking them into fully ranked units of Elites, Character Busses, or other scary Monster-Characters alone or unsupported. They are, in both cases, Combat Support Elements that can take on lighter elements alone (such as units of Monstrous Cav, Chariots, etc.) provided they are equipped accordingly. Moreover, a S7 Anointed will often be contributing most of the damage, simply due to how much armor is present in the global-meta, making the differences between mounts less of an issue, although not enough to downplay the Frostheart’s undeniable advantage in combat..

The final point here to touch on is survivability, a key aspect of playing any Monster-Character. In the case of the Star Dragon, while it may hit quite hard, it has a very high likelihood of dying, especially in Cannon-heavy or magic-heavy environments. The Frostheart is a step down from that damage potential but, with a 5+ Ward Save (potentially 4+), and Magic Resistance 2, is generally well protected from spells and is likely to shrug of some shooting without complaint (the Aura here is only a slight contribution to his survival rates, as he’s still most likely to be taken out at ranged. It does, however, allow him to support other Combat Elements better).

A Flamespyre is yet another step removed from a Star Dragon, and now more closely resembles the damage of a Gryphon, but is another step up in survivability. With a 2+ Ward versus Flaming, the Phoenix is now much less threatened by cannons (half of them are Flaming). However, the Rise from the Ashes rule is the real apex of the Phoenix’s power, allowing for additional damage to whatever unit killed the Phoenix (because he’s now only likely to die in combat) and the ability to come back to life. Percentage wise, it’s 84% of “not dying” (either kindling, or reviving), 33% chance of coming back to life, and a 16% chance of the model actually being removed. Seeing as how the controlling player also gets to roll at the end of each turn, there is the potential for a lot of damage to be dealt, as well as a fairly high likelihood of returning the Phoenix to life over the course of the game. This also means, you have a 530ish point model that is incredibly hard to kill: arguably, one of the hardest model in Warhammer to claim points from. Coming back to life on an opponent’s turn is also incredibly powerful and allows for decisive charges into softer back-lines or unprotected flanks.

In comparison of the other special rules, and taking the above into account, I consider them mostly to be equal. The ability to Blizzard Aura a key unit is great, but considering a solo Frostheart will be included in either list, it’s much less important. Similarly, the Wake of Fire rule doesn’t overcome the inherent combat-deficiencies of the Flamespyre, but does add for additional flexibility, especially in clearing chaff and light units.

This is where the real player-preference is going to come into affect. If you’ve planned a list that is very hard-hitting, one-speed: “go,” then you’re much more likely to favor a Frostheart to fulfill the Star-Dragon role. If however, you’re looking for a slower, more measured game with greater tactical diversity, the Flamespyre is likely to appeal. In both cases though, I will note that Rare in particular should include a Frostheart, because if you’re using the Anointed on Frostheart to directly support your other elements via Blizzard Aura, he cannot fulfill the Star-Dragon role that you’re selecting him for.

Anecdotally, after having played a few weeks worth of games (some reports to follow this writeup), I can comfortably say that I haven’t felt at a combat disadvantage playing with the Flamespyre versus the Frostheart, mostly due to the fact that the Anointed has done most of the damage in nearly all cases. Certainly, the mounts play very differently, but I personally enjoy the flexibility and the tactical advantage of the Flamespyre. That being said, I don’t consider the Frostheart in any way a less-competitive choice: in fact, I consider the delta between the two mounts to be very, very small.

Let me finish this section by saying the difference in Anointed equipment is also incredibly important. When playing the Star-Dragon style of the Frostheart, you’ll certainly want to hit as hard as possible and won’t be looking for long, drawn-out combats. The inclusion of the Other Trickster’s Shard then makes a lot more sense here and not on the Flamespyre-Anointed, where you’re trying to survive as long as possible, and make take longer, grinding combats against weaker foes, making Dawnstone more appropriate for him.


c. List Extensions and Ideas

Now that I’ve had a bit of time to digest the ETC lists, I wanted to start to look at what kinds of ideas I could include (or use as completely new foundations) for lists I’d play regularly. This is where all the analysis coalesces and I’m left with something that I’ll be able to use not just under ETC play, tournament play, or casual play but all three: this is the “so-what” of the last 4,000 words.

i. Poland and Austria

Right, back to that middle ground I mentioned. As I pointed out earlier, I prefer the Polish Core and the Austrian Lion inclusion, and personally feel that in an all-comers environment (both tournament and casual: ETC and not) there’s an in-between that includes both. A list that I could see myself playing (taking elements from both) might look something like this:

Anointed of Asuryan on Flamespyre Phoenix, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, 530 

Noble, BSB, on Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armor, Ogreblade, Charmed Shield, Luckstone 164

Mage, on Elven Steed, Level Two, Lore of High Magic, Talisman of Preservation, 175

Mage,  on Elven Steed, Level Two, Lore of High Magic, Dispel Scroll, 155 

18 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command, 444 

2x 5 Ellyrian Reavers, 160

24 White Lions of Chrace, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, 392 

Frostheart Phoenix, 240 

2x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 140



Total: 2400

The BSB’s kit needs some more work (perhaps Star Lance + Dragon Armor here, but unsure. Testing needed), and I would like to get the Obsidian Trinket somewhere in the Knight Bus, but I think a setup like that could do quite well in a normal 2400-tournament environment. Similarly, the Flamespyre can be adjusted to a Frostheart for only 10 points more, which can easily be juggled out of characters (Talisman of Endurance instead of Preservation for instance), or by dropping the Musician from the White Lions. Given my earlier minor point about Sceptre of Stability, I’ll also likely end up giving it a go.

When looking to add on to 2500 points, the easy additions would be a Third Bolt Thrower, a second Noble, or more Lions, all of which there is room for. At this point level, I might be more swayed by the argument of a Frostheart-Anointed if a tournament downplayed objective grabbing, favoring simply points-destroyed. The obvious synergies of pairing the Helm Bus and one Phoenix with the Lions and the other become more apparent at this level as well, with more threatening combos on the table. Could look something like this:

Anointed of Asuryan on Frostheart Phoenix, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster’s Shard, 540 

Noble, BSB, on Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armor, Ogreblade, Charmed Shield, Luckstone 164

Mage, on Elven Steed, Level Two, Lore of High Magic, Talisman of Preservation, 175

Mage, on Elven Steed, Level Two, Lore of High Magic, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon, 160 

18 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command, 444 

2x 5 Ellyrian Reavers, 1 Bow Swap, 2 Champions, 185

24 White Lions of Chrace, Champion, Standard, Banner of the World Dragon, 382 

Frostheart Phoenix, 240 

3x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 210



TOTAL: 2500

Adjustments to Core might also be made at this level, including small units of Helms, instead of Reavers, and adding a Great Eagle(s) in Rare, instead of the 3rd Bolt Thrower. Testing needed of course.

ii. Spain

I haven’t forgotten Spain’s contribution either. Here’s my current 2500 list based off of that list, with the specific (and above noted) adjustment of including a supporting Level One Mage:

Prince, General, Giant Blade, Shield of the Merwyrm, Golden Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster’s Shard, 240
Archmage, Level Four, Lore of High Magic, Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll, 290
Noble, BSB, on Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armor, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone, Potion of Strength, 170
Noble, on Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armor, Ogre Blade, Charmed Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, 139
Mage, Level One, Lore of Heavens, 85

15 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command, 375
2x 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bow Swap, 170
5 Ellyrian Reavers, 80

27 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, 431

4x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 280
Frostheart Phoenix, 240

TOTAL: 2500

…or with the Phoenix Guard adjustment, also mentioned above:

Prince, General, Heavy Armor, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Endurance, 241
Archmage, Level Four, Lore of High Magic, Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll, 290
Noble, BSB, on Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armor, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon, 178
Noble, on Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armor, Shield, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, 141
Mage, Level One, Lore of Heavens, 85

15 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command, 375
2x 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bow Swap, 170
5 Ellyrian Reavers, 80

23 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Razor Standard, 420

4x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 280
Frostheart Phoenix, 240

TOTAL: 2500

d. Improving on Anointed Lists

I also did some thinking about how, if possible, I could make this kind of list any more challenging to deal with. The one thing I kept coming back to was the old Star Dragon + S7 Light Council of last edition’s book. Seeing as how I enjoy playing a Coven quite a lot, I decided to give that a try. I present the Phoenix Coven:

Anointed of Asuryan on Flamespyre Phoenix, General, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, 530
Noble, BSB, Reaver Bow, 120
Mage, Level Two, Lore of Light, Sceptre of Stability, 135
Mage, Level Two, Lore of Light, Dispel Scroll, 145
Mage, Level One, Lore of Light, 85
Mage, Level One, Lore of Light, 85

3x 5 Silver Helms, Shields, 345
2x 5 Ellyrian Reavers, 160
10 Archers, Champion, Musician, 120

25 White Lions, Champion, Standard, Banner of the World Dragon, 395

2x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 140
Frostheart Phoenix, 240

TOTAL: 2500

After testing this (and winning: battle report to follow, likely YouTube form, Lecai, time permitting), I found some major holes in the list. I adjusted it, mounting all of the characters instead, and consolidating the Helms together, back into a bus. I’ll talk more about the reason why in the report. The result is the following:

Anointed of Asuryan on Flamespyre Phoenix, General, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, 530
Noble, BSB, on Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armor, Shield, Lance, Golden Crown of Atrazar, 137
Mage, on Elven Steed, Level Two, Lore of Light, Ironcurse Icon, 135
Mage, on Elven Steed, Level One, Lore of Light, Dispel Scroll, 120
Mage, on Elven Steed, Level One, Lore of Light, 95
Mage, on Elven Steed, Level One, Lore of Light, 95

15 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command, 375
2x 5 Silver Helms, Shields, Champion, 250

24 White Lions, Champion, Standard, Banner of the World Dragon, 382

Frostheart Phoenix, 240
2x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 140

TOTAL: 2500

Still not sold on the BSB, who currently just wants to remain out of combat along with the Coven, so I may end up dropping a Lion or two and buying his kit back. I’m also notably missing Sceptre of Stability, which is something I’d like to include, so I’ll likely end up freeing some points up elsewhere, so it doesn’t feel like I’m strapped. Finally, there’s also the option of dropping one unit of Helms for a medium unit of Reavers (7-8) to act as the character bunker, but of course, testing is needed. Swapping for a Frostheart Mount as well, that would look like this:

Anointed of Asuryan on Frostheart Phoenix, General, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, The Other Trickster’s Shard, 540
Noble, BSB, on Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armor, Star Lance, Charmed Shield, Luckstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, 159
Mage, on Elven Steed, Level Two, Lore of Light, 130
Mage, on Elven Steed, Level One, Lore of Light, Dispel Scroll, 120
Mage, on Elven Steed, Level One, Lore of Light, 95
Mage, on Elven Steed, Level One, Lore of Light, 95

14 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command, 352
5 Silver Helms, Shields, Champion, 125
8 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Champion, 148

22 White Lions, Champion, Standard, Banner of the World Dragon, 356

Frostheart Phoenix, 240
2x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 140

TOTAL: 2500

BSB’s kit might also get adjusted to Sword of Might, Charmed Shield, Luckstone, & Potion of Strength or something similar. Frostheart can go back to a Flamespyre which will allow for Sceptre of Stability if I trim 5 points elsewhere.


e. Closing

Likely 5,600 words is a bit too long, but I hope it was enjoyable and gave people something to think about, as well and sharing my list-analysis process. As always, if you have any questions or comments, please leave them below and I’ll do my best to answer them.

Thanks for reading!


Axiem

[SpellArcher]

Very interesting Axiem, thank you.

I'm still not keen to play the current book but from a theory angle it was intriguing!

[Giladis]

Damn you Axiem I have just spent an hour reading this instead of finishing the pairings for my team


A very good read.

[Cold Phoenix]

A very nice analysis . I don't have the time to write a response to the whole thing, so I'll just talk about the bits which jumped out at me.

Core:

I agree with most of the things you've said here. My only quibble is that there were times in the last couple of local tournaments when I was playing Greenskin Warmachine spam (double Doom Divers) or Brets with 2 Trebs when I'd have been happy to have had 3+ units of Reavers, so that I could handle normal redirection and get at the warmachines.

Mounted Anointeds:

I'll be interested to see how these go, but I'm not quite convinced that they're better than a Cav Prince + Lv4. While they are harder to cannon off, both Phoenixes are also more vulnerable to poisened shooting then a Star Dragon, with worse saves and fewer wounds and the lack of stubborn and the sheer damage output of a Star Dragon means that they'll need support to handle anything resembling a Deathstar. If a Mounted Anointed charges a Block with decent combat res on his own, he has a good chance of being challanged, barely killing the champion and ending up with 1-2 points of active combat res + charge against banner, ranks and (possibly) BSB, which could be a LD6-8 break test. I also would hate giving up the wonderful magic defence of Lv4 with Book and Scroll.

Other ETC Lists:

I suspect that much of the reason that High is turning up more is the resurgence of the Elves. It's much easier to Soul Quench Waywatchers and Warlock instead of chasing them down. The fact that High Magic also provides solutions to 3+ Ward Characters and steadfast Infantry Blocks can only make it more attractive.

As for Spain's list, I'm very interested in it. I often feel that our Elites lack just that little bit extra which could take them from good to great and sticking a Foot Prince in a Block of White Lions or Phoenix Guard might be just the thing to help with that. I've got an experimental list based on similar concepts that I hope to take to a local 2000 point Tournament.

Lastly, are you looking to fill in for Seradain ? Your “Wall of Text” feels just like the sort of well written, incisive writing which makes me return to his blog even though he’s been absent for a while.

[SpellArcher]

I feel a double mage defence with Scroll plus Sceptre or Scroll of Shielding is enough. Book/Scroll with the +4 is superb but is it necessary? If not, maybe the points can go elsewhere. Hagbane for example is only slightly better against Phoenixes. The main thing is the 7 wounds, the saves not so much. But any ridden monster is obviously better off than an unridden here. I believe what the GW infantry lack are re-rolls! Seredain has wandered off to have a crack at the tournament circuit

[Cold Phoenix]

I feel a double mage defence with Scroll plus Sceptre or Scroll of Shielding is enough. Book/Scroll with the +4 is superb but is it necessary? If not, maybe the points can go elsewhere. Hagbane for example is only slightly better against Phoenixes. The main thing is the 7 wounds, the saves not so much. But any ridden monster is obviously better off than an unridden here. I believe what the GW infantry lack are re-rolls! Seredain has wandered off to have a crack at the tournament circuit

Perhaps it's a legacy of learning to play WHFB against the DE 7th ed book, but I'm always happy to increase my magic defence. Until the 8th ed DE book came out, Lv4 with book and a scroll caddy were often the only things which stood between victory and defeat by a Sacrificial Dagger assisted Shadow Magic or Dark Magic phase.

As for Hagbane, ignoring normal unsaved wounds (because you don't know what the penalties to hit will be), it takes 67.5 shots (all 6s to hit wound, 1/3 hits go to the rider, 5++ ward, 5 wounds) to kill a Flamespyre, 81 shots (all 6s to hit wound, 1/3 hits go to the rider, 6+ armour, 5++ ward, 5 wounds) to kill a Frostheart, 126 shots (all 6s to hit wound, 1/3 hits go to the rider, 4+ armour, 7 wounds) to kill a Star Dragon. Of course, this doesn't factor in having a Flamespyre Reborn or the chances of getting a 4+ ward from attuned to magic, but it still indicates that a Star Dragon is significantly harder to shoot off the table.

I hope Seredain will come back at some point, but I don't expect him to return today or tomorrow. Perhaps if he's too busy to post in his blog, you'd be happy to occasionally tell us how he's doing?

[SpellArcher]

Hmm, my old book High Magic phase never had that much trouble against the 7th DE Shadow phase and that was against good players too. Maybe it depended on the list. I guess it also depends what you're looking to achieve offensively. But those double Mage phases should definitely be able to get by if played properly.

Yeah, the SD is decent against Hagbane. But it wouldn't terrify me if I was running a mounted Anointed. The Phoenix-spam list is the only one to give my Wood Elves real trouble so far.

Seredain went 3/2 at Bristol in March, 50th/200 (Furion was 53rd) at SCGT, 15th/100 at MKGT and 31st/90 at Midlands (very strong field, he played Johannes Mohr and Dan Heelan 1st and 2nd games). I just think it's a slight shame that even he is running a similar army to everyone else now. Maybe that's what it takes to win with High Elves these days.

Incidentally, he is running a small unit of Flaming DP's. Why do you consider these a bad choice Axiem?

[teep]

Hey Axiem, thanks for your efforts, great read ! What are your thoughts on applying your
findings on smaller sized lists, like at 2k points? I've only had a couple of 1k5 battles, for the
most part we keep it at 2k5, so I'm at a big loss on what to bring at 2000 points and mad grateful
for any input that I can get.
EDIT: ah, and I'm facing the Dark Elves next

Thanks in advance,
teep

[Axiem]

Glad everyone's enjoying!

I'm still not keen to play the current book but from a theory angle it was intriguing!

Not enjoying the book? Care to elaborate, I'd be interested to know why?

While they are harder to cannon off, both Phoenixes are also more vulnerable to poisened shooting then a Star Dragon, with worse saves and fewer wounds and the lack of stubborn and the sheer damage output of a Star Dragon means that they'll need support to handle anything resembling a Deathstar.

The key point here being that, even if you're taking a Star Dragon, he shouldn't be charging (most: proper is another way of putting it) Deathstars on his own which means he still has to combo-charge. If you're taking a Phoenix Anointed (either Frostheart or Flamespyre), you're still going to follow this guideline but you a) save points to be used elsewhere and b) gain flexibility and survivability that the Star Dagon doesn't allow.

I'll be interested to see how these go, but I'm not quite convinced that they're better than a Cav Prince + Lv4

This I think is the heart of the issue: is Cav Prince + Level 4 the best setup High Elves can build with the current book? Speaking generally, I would say no, at least not definitively. That's not to say I think Anointed builds are the solution: I haven't tested enough to have an opinion regarding it's strength relative to other, popular builds, again at least not definitively (generally, I feel it's stronger than double-Elite blocks, on par with Cav-armies, slightly better than Coven, but this is just gut feeling at this point).

I also would hate giving up the wonderful magic defence of Lv4 with Book and Scroll.

I feel a double mage defence with Scroll plus Sceptre or Scroll of Shielding is enough. Book/Scroll with the +4 is superb but is it necessary?

Another really interesting point, and part of what I'm working through now. Really, how much Magic is 'enough' and what is 'too much?' One of the problems with Cav Prince + Level Four, for instance, is that often you're left wanting at least an addition Level 1/2 Scroll caddy because a) you need the Book to really ensure the Cav Prince is effective b) Spell selection c) magic defense. However, if you start filling in all these holes with Magic points, you're not really saving many points over taking a Monster-Lord, which is markedly more effective than the Cav Prince.

Lore selection plays a big role here too, and really, offensively, there are only a few lores that perfectly take advantage of the Book's added casting value. If you're not playing one of those lores, I feel these are wasted points and if you're running a magic phase well, you won't need the bonus to cast. When it comes to dispelling, I'm also not keen on spending 80 points in Arcane + Banner of the World Dragon + (potentially) MR on the Knight Bus. Dialing in how much protecting is optimal however is, as I said, still something I'm working on.

The short answer, is I'm closer in mindset to SpellArcher's point of view: that Scroll + Sceptre/Shielding is enough.

Lastly, are you looking to fill in for Seradain ? Your “Wall of Text” feels just like the sort of well written, incisive writing which makes me return to his blog even though he’s been absent for a while.

I'd like to think I'm not 'filling' in for anyone! If you look in the Army List section, you'll find many of my responses were quite...substantial. Now that I'm condensing my thoughts into a single place however, it might seem quiet lengthy at times! I know some players, like myself, enjoy reading longer, more in-depth articles; since I've consumed many of them, I thought to add myself to the group that produces them!

As for Hagbane, ignoring normal unsaved wounds (because you don't know what the penalties to hit will be), it takes 67.5 shots (all 6s to hit wound, 1/3 hits go to the rider, 5++ ward, 5 wounds) to kill a Flamespyre, 81 shots (all 6s to hit wound, 1/3 hits go to the rider, 6+ armour, 5++ ward, 5 wounds) to kill a Frostheart, 126 shots (all 6s to hit wound, 1/3 hits go to the rider, 4+ armour, 7 wounds) to kill a Star Dragon. Of course, this doesn't factor in having a Flamespyre Reborn or the chances of getting a 4+ ward from attuned to magic, but it still indicates that a Star Dragon is significantly harder to shoot off the table.

Even 67.5 (assuming math is correct) shots is more than any Monster should be taking. It really comes down to Cannon shots and other Warmachines along with Magic (especially Death, Shadows, Metal) that will end up claiming our Lords, where the Anointed and Phoenix are really is more useful than Prince and Dragon.

Incidentally, he is running a small unit of Flaming DP's. Why do you consider these a bad choice Axiem?

For two reasons. First, the 200-odd points that have to be spent on them take away from more effective choices, namely Bolt Throwers, Phoenixes, and White Lions/Phoenix Guard will each perform better than the Princes. I like them plenty fine in larger numbers as a bus, but they are too expensive and too fragile at 5-7 to warrant inclusion over the alternatives.

Secondly, the number of match ups they are good in is small compared to the number of match ups where they aren't. The only time's I've found them quite good is against WoC, a matchup where HE don't need the help. Also, with the prevalence of 2+W v. Flaming, there are only a few circumstances where they won't get tied up, effectively wasting their points. Combine that with the availability of War Machines (many of which clear Princes easily) and Monstrous Cav (small units perform similar roles more effectively and for less points), you're left with a unit that has a lot of downsides, comparatively, and few upsides.

Hey Axiem, thanks for your efforts, great read ! What are your thoughts on applying your
findings on smaller sized lists, like at 2k points? I've only had a couple of 1k5 battles, for the
most part we keep it at 2k5, so I'm at a big loss on what to bring at 2000 points and mad grateful
for any input that I can get.
EDIT: ah, and I'm facing the Dark Elves next

Glad you enjoyed!

Let me start by saying 2k is as different from 2.5k as it is from 3k, and there are a lot of things that only work at the higher, or lower, point levels that don't work in the middle (and vice versa).

That being said, a lot of what I wrote is general enough to apply at any level, particularly the part about Core and Elements. When playing at smaller games, you need to think very carefully about Elements you want to bring, and what role they will play: Offensive, Combat Support, Ranged Support, etc. Core in particular defines how you'll be planning the rest of the list and I still feel that the Helm Bus is likely the best points you're going to spend here, since it leaves so many points to support elsewhere. This will usually leave you with 1-2 units that can effectively take on combat-threats of your opponent however, which means you need to be careful picking your fights and use your Supporting Elements well. Alternatively, you can fill your Core with, IMO, less optimal choices, but then take 2-3 units that can fight in combat, giving you more versatility but making you more vulnerable to lists that are very focused in nature.

If you were looking to play a Cav-style army, consider something like this:

Prince, General, on Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armor, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, 282
Noble, BSB, on Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armor, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon, 178
Mage, on Elven Steed, Level Two, Lore of High Magic, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon, 160
Mage, on Elven Steed, Level Two, Lore of High Magic, Sceptre of Stability, Dragonbane Gem, 150

16 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command, 398
2x 5 Silver Helms, Shields, 230
6 Ellyrian Reavers, Bow Swap, 102

3x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 210
Frostheart Phoenix, 240
Great Eagle, 50

TOTAL: 2000

If you were looking to play an Anointed list, consider something like this:

Anointed, General, on Frostheart Phoenix, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness, 500 (or Flamespyre, with Golden Crown / The Other Trickster's Shard)
Noble, BSB, on Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armor, Shield, Spear, Banner of the World Dragon, 168
Mage, on Elven Steed, Level Two, Lore of High Magic, Dispel Scroll, 155
Mage, on Elven Steed, Level Two, Lore of High Magic, Talisman of Preservation, 175

17 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command, 421
5 Ellyrian Reavers, 80

3x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 210
Frostheart Phoenix, 240
Great Eagle, 50

TOTAL: 1999

If you were looking to play all-comers, I'd consider either a Coven, or Helms + Lions/Phoenix Guard (in both cases, Lions aren't brilliant against DE if you're list-tailoring), like one of these two:

Archmage, Level Four, Lore of Light, Dispel Scroll, 245
Loremaster of Hoeth, General, Level Two, Signature Spells, Gem of Sunfire, 250
Noble, BSB, on Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armor, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, 170
Mage, Level One, Lore of Light, 85

5 Silver Helms, Shields, Champion, 125
20 Archers, Musician, Champion, 220
2x Ellyrian Reavers, Bow Swap, 170

25 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, 405

4x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 280
Great Eagle, 50

TOTAL: 2000


Archmage, General, on Elven Steed, Level Four, Lore of High Magic, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Trinket, Ironcurse Icon, 295
Noble, BSB, on Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armor, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone, Potion of Strength, 170
Noble, on Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armor, Shield, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, 141

17 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command, 421
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bow Swap, 80

24 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon, 392

3x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 210
Frostheart Phoenix, 240
Great Eagle, 50

TOTAL: 1999


In each of these lists, you can see the same logic driving the choices. The result is a strong Core that gives way to a very potent Rare, which is able to more than adequately support the key elements in each list. Also note, the Coven's Core is markedly different, because it follows a completely different ideology. There's plenty to play around with still, like swapping the Level Four for a Loremaster w/ Book of Hoeth which will allow you to add your own flavor of play to the lists (the last in particular can be taken multiple ways).

Hope that helps! More to come soon!™

Axiem

[SpellArcher]

I feel Simple Line of Sight is significant for the viability of Monster Lords. However, outside of that the 7 wounds of the Star Dragon is obviously significant vs cannon. It's just a little random for my taste, the SD can do well but if a cannon player rolls well it's difficult. Then you have the magic issue. My Amber Spear is a threat to a Star Dragon but a Phoenix Rider just laughs at it. Overall I suspect the Flamespyre has enough going for him defensively (Fireborn, 2/3 ++ vs magic, rebirth) to have a decent shot against most lists out there.

Interestingly, the threat of heavy magic has pushed a guy like Seredain to drop Book of Hoeth for Shielding Scroll. So much arcane venom was being aimed at his bus that he felt extra protection was essential and he built in a High Mage rather than simply bulking out the bus. He feels this gives more overall utility. My experience is that you can get away with a lvl 3 with dispel scroll but magic defence is the best part of my game and it's tight even then. World Dragon can be huge but if your main block is PG and you have MR and/or Shield of Saphery and/or Shielding Scroll for the bus, it might not be necessary.

The reason I don't play High Elves anymore is that they seem to reward maxing stuff out to me and I prefer a more mixed approach. So there's the tendency towards 4 RBT, the bigger bus, multiple monsters, World Dragon Lion Horde, multiple characters etc.. As for DP's, they have certain advantages over Wild Riders (which are well regarded) for example but I guess the killing power just isn't as awesome. Not playing them it is hard to comment much.

[Mufasa]

Hey Axiem! Very interesting stuff to read!

I have a question regarding the Aussie ETC list. Do you think that the Light Coven can work without the Book of Hoeth? I want to test the Coven but I found myself struggling with the list build. Investing so many points in magic and not taking the Book feels stupid. But taking it basically means dropping the Frosty which I'm not comfortable with.

[Axiem]

Hey Axiem! Very interesting stuff to read!

I have a question regarding the Aussie ETC list. Do you think that the Light Coven can work without the Book of Hoeth? I want to test the Coven but I found myself struggling with the list build. Investing so many points in magic and not taking the Book feels stupid. But taking it basically means dropping the Frosty which I'm not comfortable with.

It can work either way, and honestly the lack of Book isn't too big of a deal and just means the Loremaster takes over more of the casting early. If you're wanting to drop the Frosty, you're pretty well required to take a larger unit of Helms in Core (7+) and a 1+ re-rolling Noble to prevent getting pushed up on too quickly. This means you're losing the versatility of the Seahelm, and are at risk of losing your BSB in a fair number of match ups, especially against armies like OnG.

With the points saved from the Frosty however, you can add in Sisters and/or a second Great Eagle, meaning the army has a lot more ranged versatility, and that Core can be readjusted. I don't consider this as strong as the Frosty variant, particularly because it's even more defensive (something the Coven already struggles from) but the difference isn't that large, and it's certainly playable.

In non-ETC, the Book is obviously an auto-include.

Axiem

[teep]

Hey Axiem,
I can’t thank you enough for your fast and elaborte reply, really kool of you to take the time! In the end, I opted for
a combined arms feat. Helms type of approach and really enjoyed the high mobility and flexibility in tandem with a
respectable infantry block – just the right tool box to try and catch them runaway dark elves without having to tailor.

This is what I brought :

Archmage Lvl4 High (Soul, Hand, Unforging, Fiery),Steed – Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Loadstone 290
BSB, Barded Steed, Dragon Armor, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone, Potion of Strength 170
Noble, Barded Steed, Heavy Armor, Shield, Lion Cloak, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm 145

13 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command 329
5 Reavers w Spears 80
5 Reavers w Spears & Bows 95

23 Phoenix Guard, FC w Razor 420

3x Bolt Thrower 210
Frostheart Phoenix 240

1999 pts


I don’t wanna spam, plus I might make a batrep out of this encounter, so just some random impressions :

- I see know why that bigger Helm unit is very much needed in this violent world of ours
- not taking the Ironcurse Icon is both a deep error and easy to fix – what’s not to like!
- the Lion Cloak didn’t make much sense in the first place, but a Longbow for one of these fine noblemen, now that would be sumptn…
- it was nice to play book and banner-less but with a frostie for a change
- I really enjoyed the "single-out and kill"-potential of this list, and the well, elvish feel that it has because of that

On the weekend, I’ll either face Empire or Vampires in a 2k5 battle and I can’t wait to try out my version of the Flamin’ Anointed McGee list. As much as I like it, I’m a bit anxious considering the banishment attention the bus without banner might be getting.
As per usual, it’s all in the hips and I gotta come up with some sexy stuff in the movement phase…

Thanks again,
teep

[Axiem]

Been a busy couple weeks, so here are a couple quick updates.

I've had several battles, with several different types of lists and I'll do a quick rundown of my thoughts, as they've evolved as a result.

Game 1: 2999 v. Empire (Tournament with Storm of Magic Scroll of Binding Allowed, Practice)

I took a Helm Bus, 2 High Mages, Noble BSB, Flamespyre Anointed, Frostheart, 2 Storm of Magic Dragons, 3 Bolt Throwers, Chaff. Played against Knight Bus with Karl Franz, Halberdier Horde with BSB, Warrior Priest, Level 4 Life, Archers, 2x 4 Demigryphs, 2x Steamtank, Magma Dragon.

Basically, this game showcased how good the Knightbus + Double Phoenix setup is. We played a modified Dawn Attack where most of my stuff showed up in the left hand corner, across most of his stuff, although his Dragon ended up on the right hand side and the Halberdiers were deployed centrally. My Knight bus failed a charge against his Knight Bus, although my Frostheart went in on his own. After holding (and taking no wounds) for two rounds of combat, my Knight Bus and Anointed came crashing in and smashed the unit to bits. Anointed slew Karl Franz single-handedly, and Helms cleaned up the Knights.

My chaff got into his back lines, after misdirecting his steam tanks (all game), and chased his Wizard and Archers off the board. One Dragon died to Demigryphs but the other combined with the Phoenixes charged the Halberdiers turn 4 and between them they ground down, winning combat and killing all the characters in the front rank, earning me a lot of extra points. I ignored the Magma Dragon, instead shooting the Demi's and missed killing one unit by 2 wounds, while the other fled off the board from the Monsters. Long story short, Dragons did nothing, Phoenixes and Knight Bus did everything.

16-4 Win with the scale modified for 3k.

Game 2: 2500 Flamespyre Anointed v. Wood Elves (YouTube Battle Report)

Played against a Wood Elf player running an all-comers based on several, combined ideas present in ETC lists. I made a YouTube battle report of this game, which you can find here. http://youtu.be/R1aSq3b7Ibc Hope you enjoy, and you'll have to watch to see the result!

Game 3: 2500 Foot Prince & High Magic + Noble Bus v. Foot Dark Elves

I took a foot Prince, Archmage with High Magic, 2x Nobles (one BSB) + Heavens Mage in Helms, 23 Phoenix Guard, 4x Eagle Claw, Frostheart. Played against a Darkelf list that ran 3x Peg Heroes, Corsair Block, Executioner Block, Crossbow + Darkriders, 2x 5 Warlocks, mounted BSB + Level 4 Life. Game went pretty standard, with him killing more of my chaff than I did of his, but I still managed to get into an okay situation when I found a bit of impassible terrain to put on the flank of my Phoenix Guard. I managed to get Fiery Convocation once on his Executioners and shutdown most of his magic before combat was drawn and my Bolt Throwers killed two of his war machines first turn, giving me a strong edge.

Highlight of this game was the Phoenix Guard and characters being charged by Executioners and Cloak-Peg-Hero in the front, Corsairs in the side, and 2nd Peg in the rear and, over three rounds of combat, lost only the Champion, took a wound off the Prince, and the Archmage died (rolled three 2s, or otherwise would have survived). In return, I obliterated the Executioners (even with Life magic regrowing / toughening), killed one Peg hero, and wore the Corsairs down. Thusly tied up in combat, the Noble-Helm bus smashed in and cleaned up the rest.

Win.

Game 4: 2500 Loremaster + Cav Prince v. 2nd Wood Elf Player

I was running Prince Cav Bus + Loremaster + High Mage in Phoenix Guard, 4x Bolt Throwers, and 15 Sisters against a different Wood Elf player running a much more mobile list. He had roughly roughly 3x 7 Wild Riders, Waywatchers, Treeman, 2x Waystalkers, Eagles, Glade Guard. Game went well with the Phoenix Guard pushing up, controlling board space, and otherwise preventing movement while the Knights pushed up a flank to deny any Wild-Rider shenanigans. The Sisters were awesome here who, along with the Bolt Throwers, cleared out 2/3 Wild Riders before turn 4 after I moved backwards in turn 2/3 to buy myself more time. In the later turns, my Phoenix Guard got charged by his Treeman and remaining Wild Riders, but stuck around, losing the Mage and a few guard, but holding long enough for the Cav Bus to make it in and clean up.

20-0

Game 5: Flamespyre Anointed + Coven v. Warlock Star DE

I was running a Flamespyre + S7 Coven against the same opponent as in game 3, but with a completely different list. My list was 4x Mage (two 2s, two 1s), 24 Archers, 2x Helms, 5 Reavers, 20 Swordmasters BOTWD, Frostheart, 2x Bolt Thrower and was up against Dark Rider + Witchelf Core, Executioners, 4x Bolt Thrower, 1 Peg Hero, Dreadlord, BSB, Level 4 in 10 Warlocks. The first few turns didn't go very well for me, as the Coven only managed to killed 3 Warlocks with Banishment and were only able to keep up Pha's every-other turn.

I started taking wounds on the Flamespyre Phoenix and by turn 3 he was in his egg. However, end of that same turn, I rolled a 5+, he popped back up 6" away, facing the Warlock Star, and declared a charge against them on my turn. Not able to flee without risking going off the board (he would have needed to roll very low to stay) my opponent had no choice but to stay. Anointed got into a challenge with the Dreadlord, did two wounds and took nothing in return, won combat by 3, they broke and I ran them down.

20-0.

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Thoughts and analysis time.

Ok, so let me start by reiterated that the lists above are about 2 weeks old and that some of my thoughts regarding them have evolved since then. That being said, here are a few bullet points of what I've learned:

> S7 Coven isn't needed if I'm also taking the Phoenixes. There's enough damage / buffs to be had with three mages, a fourth only detracts from the rest of the list.
> I'll miss channeling on 4 dice each turn, but it's not worth the investment of the fourth mage.
> Foot Prince is playable likely only with High Magic support and Phoenix Guard; I can't see White Lions performing the same role.
> Foot Prince + Noble Bus is as strong, if not stronger, than Cav Prince + WL. I am a fan.
> Flamespyre is really good against Elves mainly because of Rise from the Ashes and because of Wake of Fire. 4+W and 2+ Rerollable Armor saves, and MR 2 isn't bad either.
> When taking a Flamespyre Anointed, High Magic is arguably better than Light because it saves more points. However I feel it will make some match ups more difficult than others, thereby making Light the better option under certain circumstances (environments) but High better in an all-comers.
> Another example of Swordmasters not keeping up with Phoenix Guard, even in terms of damage over the long run.
> None of the lists I played were properly optimized, and there is still a ways to go before they get there.

New lists to come shortly!

The reason I don't play High Elves anymore is that they seem to reward maxing stuff out to me and I prefer a more mixed approach. So there's the tendency towards 4 RBT, the bigger bus, multiple monsters, World Dragon Lion Horde, multiple characters etc..

Sorry I missed this last time! Do you see yourself / do you enjoy playing Swedish then? It's starting to become...I won't say popular, but at least present in our environment now because people feel the same as you.

Hey Axiem,
I can’t thank you enough for your fast and elaborte reply, really kool of you to take the time! In the end, I opted for
a combined arms feat. Helms type of approach and really enjoyed the high mobility and flexibility in tandem with a
respectable infantry block – just the right tool box to try and catch them runaway dark elves without having to tailor.

Happy to help! Glad you had success and, more importantly, fun! The list looks good for 2k; I would be happy enough to play that exact list in any all-comers environment.

On the weekend, I’ll either face Empire or Vampires in a 2k5 battle and I can’t wait to try out my version of the Flamin’ Anointed McGee list. As much as I like it, I’m a bit anxious considering the banishment attention the bus without banner might be getting.
As per usual, it’s all in the hips and I gotta come up with some sexy stuff in the movement phase…

How did you get on? I'm quite curious to know, especially if you're playing a variation on the Flamespyre Anointed.

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Don't forget to take a look at the battle report, link once again http://youtu.be/R1aSq3b7Ibc !

Axiem

[SpellArcher]

Funnily enough Axiem, I am low-comp at heart. I can see the advantages of Swedish or ETC for example but personally, I like the differences in the armies as they stand. I loved the old HE book because you could play reasonably competitive lists without min-maxing, in contrast I believe to the current book. Archer/fast cav avoidance is generally regarded as the only competitive way to play the new WE book. My experience (and that of others running mixed builds) thus far is that this is not the case. Problem solved.

[Curu Olannon]

@SA - the new HE book is still not fully explored I believe. I`ve heard some very interesting ideas lately in the wake of some curveballs that you might find interesting. We`ll see if anything surfaces in the coming months. My point however is that the WE book is still very fresh. I believe it could go many ways. Bear in mind that they are the only faction in Warhammer at the moment with innately stubborn core choices. I don`t think you can dismiss this fact when you have access to all 8 lores. Freeing up the need for CoC with so many magical permutations is insane. Furthermore, without the need for a character providing CoC, a lot more formations are viable than what you generally see (as stubborn-character bunker units wanting to act as roadblocks are typically very deep and with a small frontage to protect said character). Also, Wild Riders have damage output through the roof and against many lists, maxing shooting is overkill. I`m not saying it`s likely that we`ll see Treemen all over the place soon, but I think the book could still land in a decent place with regards to your preferred playstyle.

Speaking of which, I find it odd that you don`t play Dark Elves or Daemons. They are currently the ones where you can bring the most variety and still have a strong list. Dark Elves for example can take some Dark Riders, some Witchelves, some RBTs, some Harpies, some Warlocks, some Shades, some combat flyers: basically a little bit of everything, and still have a very strong list. Same for Daemons, just bring some horrors, plaguebearers, hounds, flies, beasts: the book is so strong you could possibly make any unit work. Min-maxing with these books just don`t seem to be a necessity.

[Malossar]

Could we get a full list for the foot prince?

[SpellArcher]

Fair play Curu, perhaps I'm being too categorical about the HE book. I'll be interested to see these new trends you feel are coming. In the short term it would be good to thrash out the Archers/DP's issue when Seredain returns!

WE's just feel like a playground right now. I take a very suspect list to a tournament and still place mid-table, that's very promising. My opinions so far are predictable. Treekin are awful, Dryads dodgy. Hagbane & Wild Riders awesome. But I think you don't necessarily make the best list by simply spamming the power choices, the decent stuff like Treemen and EG can let these work even better sometimes.

Daemons and Dark Elves? Like a mini-version of 7th edition isn't it? Take what you like and do well!

[Curu Olannon]

I can certainly feel your frustration with regards to High Elves: Remember how I recently wrote an entire analysis which basically says "group your characters together!" which goes against all you are looking for in a list. I`m not saying anything new will necessarily pay off, but I see people opening their eyes to untraditional ideas. It was only days ago that a clubmate (in my opinion the best player in Norway) suggested triple flamespyre. While still min-maxing in concept, it is radically different and plays radically different to everything else we have in our book.

As for WE, I think they will rise to a pretty powerful position once their meta sort of settles, but they will be extremely hard to play as their army is, by nature, extremely little forgiving: far worse than even High Elves which I feel are already less forgiving than the vast majority of other factions.

Daemons and Dark Elves - depends on your comp I suppose but I have yet to see a comp system within which they don`t perform well, so I suppose you could say that I suppose I should note that I hardly played 7th at all (had a long break), my experience with Warhammer is mainly 6th and 8th, with some 5th and just a few games 7th. I do believe I`m closing in on 200 games in 8th, which is more than I have in the other 3 combined so the previous rulesets/metas are slowly but surely forgotten ^^ Take what you like and do well sounds like a good deal though, wouldn`t you agree?

[Axiem]

Hi Guys!

I’ve been playing around with some various army ideas, both coming out of the ETC and in preparation for the new Nagath-campaign that is coming out shortly. A couple ideas are driving my considered changes.

> Light is likely (obviously) going to be very good with the reintroduction of so much undead running around.
> Lore choices. I’m still not sold on any one combination, which to me means I still need to iterate!
> Phoenix Coven doesn’t have enough points to also get Lions. Does work with Skycutters, but makes match ups less reliable across all the armies.
> I’m favoring Light, Heavens, High at the moment, given the meta and what choices are popular, and likely to be in the coming months.
> Matchups that were highlighted as being the most difficult for HE in ETC were Dark Elves and Daemons. The first I don’t have much of a problem against, the second can be difficult to claim points from when marshaled by a good general.

Here are a couple of lists I’m considering now, with those ideas in mind.

Mage-Coven Bus

Archmage, General, on Elven Steed, Level Four, Lore of Heavens, Book of Hoeth, Dragonbane Gem, 305
Archmage, on Elven Steed, Level Four, Lore of Light, Dispel Scroll, 270
Noble, BSB, on Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armor, Shield, Spear, Banner of the World Dragon, 168
Noble, on Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armor, Shield, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, 141
Mage, on Elven Steed, Level One, Lore of Light, 95

15 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command, 375
2x 5 Silver Helms, Shields, Champion, 250

27 White Lions, Champion, Standard, Gleaming Pennant, 376

4x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 280
Frostheart Phoenix, 240

TOTAL: 2500

Takes the same concepts that are applied by Empire versus Daemons to a higher level. In uncomped, Book + Banner makes the casting a lot more deadly (than Empire) and the rest of the list, while playing different from its Empire counterpart, functions very similar to a normal HE list. Adjusting for ETC play, Book would be dropped for Powerstone + Crown of Command.

I’ve only had a single game with this list, against Dark Elves, and I can already say it feels like a strong contender against them. The spell selection might seem a bit, excessive but having 3-4 very good offensive and 4-5 very good defensive spells between the mages is really powerful, and ensures that whatever spell I get off has a large impact. Against the Dark Elves for instance, my opponent was having to dodge Banishment, Net, Chain Lightning and defensive buffs in the early game, none of which he wanted to get off. When combat was drawn, I had Pha’s Protection, Speed of Light, Light of Battle (which was a mistake, as I had the option to swap this for Timewarp, and didn’t for whatever reason), along with Iceshard, Harmonic, and Curse. This gave me very strong magic phases, which let me clear Peg Heroes and Chaff very easily, before engaging combats quite favorably. It also meant I survived the shooting relatively enact.

I only have two reservations about the list: I couldn’t find enough points to get to S6 Banishment (I’m not convinced of dropping the 4th Bolt Thrower to make room for this) and the lack of ways to reliably deal with Armor. From a magic standpoint, the list plays similarly to a Loremaster + Level 4 Coven without the versatility against Metal and Monsters (except Undead/Deamon ones) but is better against lone Heroes, lots of Chaff, and WoC. It also is a lot more risky when playing against Dweller lists.

I like it though, and I’ll likely to test more with it in the future. I have some other, more drastic ideas, that I’ll post once I’ve thought through them a bit more. Keep an eye out.

Questions and Comments:

Funnily enough Axiem, I am low-comp at heart. I can see the advantages of Swedish or ETC for example but personally, I like the differences in the armies as they stand. I loved the old HE book because you could play reasonably competitive lists without min-maxing, in contrast I believe to the current book. Archer/fast cav avoidance is generally regarded as the only competitive way to play the new WE book. My experience (and that of others running mixed builds) thus far is that this is not the case. Problem solved.

I understand. Glad that you’re at least finding WE enjoyable instead! Much better than playing Dark Elves or Daemons!

Could we get a full list for the foot prince?

Yes, of course! Sorry for the delay. It is as follows:

Prince, General, Heavy Armor, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Endurance, 241
Archmage, Level Four, Lore of High Magic, Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll, 280
Noble, BSB, on Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armor, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon, 178
Noble, on Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armor, Shield, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, 141
Mage, on Elven Steed, Level 1, Lore of Heavens, 95

15 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command, 375
2x 5 Silver Helms, Shields, Champion, 250

23 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Razor Standard, 420

Frostheart Phoenix, 240
4x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 280

TOTAL: 2500

I was really happy with this list’s performance. The only changes I might make are to Core, specifically dropping the extra units of Helms to make way for more Reavers. Not better precisely, just different. It does help to have additional misdirectors however considering my Prince and his block are relatively slow compared to the rest of the army.


Axiem

[pk-ng]

Prince, General, Heavy Armor, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Endurance, 241
Archmage, Level Four, Lore of High Magic, Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll, 280
Noble, BSB, on Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armor, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon, 178
Noble, on Barded Elven Steed, Heavy Armor, Shield, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, 141
Mage, on Elven Steed, Level 1, Lore of Heavens, 95

15 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command, 375
2x 5 Silver Helms, Shields, Champion, 250

23 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Razor Standard, 420

Frostheart Phoenix, 240
4x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 280

TOTAL: 2500

I was really happy with this list’s performance. The only changes I might make are to Core, specifically dropping the extra units of Helms to make way for more Reavers. Not better precisely, just different. It does help to have additional misdirectors however considering my Prince and his block are relatively slow compared to the rest of the army.

Axiem

Very interesting list! Definitely something to look into...like it alot

[wamphyri101]

Congrats!

Due to a drop out there's a spot for you in NW region US Masters team

You need to contact Aiden asap when you get this