Ferny's WL:PG blocks - no book, no frosty, and MSU SMs!

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Browncastle
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Re: 2,400 Infantry List - dropping frostie for 3xRBT+sisters

#31 Post by Browncastle »

Hey Im writing a similar list at the moment so I might as well post it here, rather than start a New topic.Well,, after trying out Phoenix guard in 2 games now, I feel they bring some much needed staying Power.

No lord! Im playing in a tounament soon With some rather Wild Magic restictions, most of the stuff from etc, 3 - 2 - 1, LoS, Army spes, PD dp cap, max 12 etc..
But then Your Magic Level doesnt add to the casting value, but detracts the casting cost instead. Dispeling goes old School though, +1 lvl 1/2 and +2 3/4. Well nuff said 2 lvl 2s will do . I due have to confess im mostly playing skaven and Beast so I might be a little tooled towards them:/

Mage
ring of fury, scroll of shielding

Mage
ring of ruin, dispel scroll

Eagle noble
eagle, lion cloak, BSB, golden Crown, enchanted Shield, reaver bow

6 Silver helms
SM, shields

6 Silver helms
SM, shields

5 Reavers
spear and bow

10 Archers

10 Archers

23 Phoenix guard
razorstandard FC

20 Whitelions
BofWD, FC

5 shadow Warriors

5 Shadow Warriors

Eagleclaw

Eagle claw

5 sisters

Frost Phoenix

2400 on point

Im not to worried about not having a lord, but I debating giving Phoenix guard standard of disiplin. against beast and skaven its no problem as there seldom is more than 5+ saves around, but allround razor standard is probly the better Choice!? I dont know so roast.
[url]http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=41281[/url]
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Re: 2,400 Infantry List - dropping frostie for 3xRBT+sisters

#32 Post by Ferny »

Hi Browncastle,

I'd say your list is pretty different - sure, its built around the two elite infantry blocks and cav support, but after that the extras vary quite a bit :). Your magic restrictions sound interesting - and the plus side of them is that if you can get away with a couple of Lv2's then you save a lot of points (possibly for RBTs, possibly to bulk up your elites?). Alternatively, this might be the perfect setting for the Loremaster?

For your BSB, as he's eagle mounted he's a real target, so I'd consider giving him charmed rather than enchanted shield - he'd only be 3+AS but he'd get 2 wards vs cannons.

I'd still go razor on PG - it just makes them a lot more versetile. Discipline, swiftness, gleaming or flaming are all cheap, good options, but don't offer as much IMO.
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Re: 2,400 Infantry List - ditching RBT, Lore Selection for AM

#33 Post by Ferny »

OK, I'm going to call it a day on RBTs for the moment. I like frosties and they work. I like my infantry and they work. I like my hero level characters and they work. Will there be match ups where I'd like more shooting? Definitely...but I'll just have to deal with it, probably through redirectors and magic. Would I include 2+ if I played 2,500 rather than 2,400...maybe. But sadly I don't so for now they're out. I'm sure other players can get them to work but they don't seem to work well for me and I don't play enough games to be bothered to try to work out how to make them work for me.

So I'm reverting back to basically my original list at the top of the thread.

My big decision now is lore choices for my two mages. Following Tethlis' lead I've been experimenting with Heavens for my Lv2 and I'm finding that works much better than beasts. Wyssans is great but can't be reliably cast on two dice whereas iceshard can, and as has been noted elsewhere, it is very functional in any phase in any part of the game. I'd almost always select this spell, and the remainder offer a nice extra angle if I'm not maxing the BoH useage on my AM. In theory I'd consider metal for Searing Doom, but tbh I think my list should do well enough against high armour opponents. It can certainly deal with WoC armour...but I've never faced a WallOfMetal Empire army which I've seen posted online so maybe that would be more challenging for this list? Still, between stubborn S6 lions to grind it out and AP PG I think in principle the list should be OK so long as I actually play well (watch me eat my words when I face it). In theory I'd also consider High for the MM, but I've got the ring and this forces you to decide between having a useful mage or a unit in combat so I prefer Heavens.

The big choice is for the AM. I've tried out a few options (and have read a lot of comments online too). I tried and liked the LM but missed the Lv4 casting (even with the book). I tried Life and I think it works but it doesn't offer much threat in and of itself (it's a great support lore and it makes the lions especially more deadly with T5, possible Regen 5++ and regrowth) but other than Dwellers it is weak in offense...as you'd expect from the lore. It doesn't help reduce big units, or small dangerous units - all it really does (Dwellers aside, as you might not roll it and can only cast it with lots of dice) is make the army better at what it already does. I tried High Everqueen to maximise the ward save but I really missed the book.

I experimented briefly with Shadow but I actually found it underwhelming. -D3 T is fantastic if you can press the advantage, but my list contains relatively little shooting (small sisters unit, few archers, reaver BSB). Yes this spell will help even this meagre shooting, but I don't take advantage of it as much as other lists (e.g. ones with more RBTs, and even bows on reavers). Also, if the opponent doesn't have an obvious target for Pit then this is the spell to stop early-mid game before combat hits. Once we're into combat there's more redundancy but until then I think it's not too hard for the opponent to prioritize dispels. I loved it in 7th and I think you could build lists around it very effectively in 8th (and it's a good lore anyway - its not like this list wouldn't benefit from it), but I'm kinda hoping for a more active lore.

So what's left? Fire is too ranged (and uniform threat range). I'm not a fan of Light on elves (although many are) because I feel it boosts what we already have. Beasts can be good but this isn't a character heavy list, and again, I'm largely happy with how units perform and I'm looking for a magic phase which will do some lifting by itself. I suspect Heavens might work wll. Death I've never tried but might complement the list well. I've never been completely sold on Metal because I've felt it's too focussed against armour (what would it do vs elves or O&G?), but actually, once you get passed searing doom, enchanted blades, scaly skin, 5+ unit killer etc are all pretty decent against anyone.

So I might give Death Metal or Heavens a try. But immediate I'm gonna revert to High and trial it with a regular AM+BoH rather than the everqueen. It will be cheaper and more likely to trickle but loses the unit-wide 5++ starting point. I'm gonna go with Seradain's build and invest in 5++ and 6++ vs warmachines to really capitalise on the lore attribute (lose the crown at this point to recoup some points) and pay for this by killing off some (justified on the basis that if/when the mage is in their unit he will protect them). Dispel might well be a priority over MM on the basis that I need an easy to cast spell for boosting the ward save when in combat, even though it's only situationally useful (I used to think it was ace but I've been on the wrong side of situation too much now). Apotheosis falls into a similar camp and might help with keeping frostie and/or characters alive too. Hand of Glory is gonna be a top priority spell if I roll doubles for the same reason, but it's actually universally useful. There is no time I can't boost my archers/sisters/BSB BS usefully, and in combat it can help lions especially vs high I or WS opponents. Walk is great in some match ups (dwarves, here's looking at you). And I don't think there's an army out there (except possibly MSU) which doesn't hate Flames. So hopefully I'll get the defensive buffs of Life while keeping access to a good Big 6 Kill Spell but will also have more varied kill-boosts.

I'm also thinking a bit about why I wanted RBTs in the first place - to deal with other elves, skink spam and to plink big 'ard units down a bit before combat. I think High fills this role pretty well so I'm gonna see how it does before experimenting with a switch. As I've said before/elsewhere, I don't think Lore choice is *too* critical with this list because it stands well enough by itself without magical boosts, so to a certain extent I just need the dispel potential...but given that I do invest in magical defence, I want the offence to be fun/interesting too.
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Re: 2,400 Infantry List - ditching RBT, Lore Selection for AM

#34 Post by Ferny »

New build designed around getting the handmaiden in!

Lords: 320
High Archmage: BoH, Obsidian Lodestone (320)

Heroes: 469
Handmaiden: Reaver Bow, Potion of Strength, Ironcurse Icon (145)
Noble BSB: Dragon Armour, Shield of Merwyrm, Obsidian Amulet, Warrior Bane: 155
Lv2 (High?) Mage: Scroll, Ring of Fury (170)

Core 600:
5xreavers (spears), mus: 90
5xreavers (spears), mus: 90
5xreavers (spears), mus: 90
5xreavers (spears), mus: 90
21 archers (FC): 240

Special: 799
23xWhite Lions+FC+BotWD (312+80=379)
23xPhoenix Guard+FC+Razor (360+75=420)

Rare: 210
14 Sisters (210)

Total: 2,398

This list was inspired by a few threads and discussions on here:
Handmaiden:
1) The US Masters showed that it is possible to use the handmaiden in a competitive list - indeed, she's pretty good really (much better than the Reaver/PoS BSB), she just probably isn't an 'efficient' use of points: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62213

2) The handmaiden really *needs* the reaver bow/PoS combination. Other options are possible, but they seem vastly sub-par - and if you're making the (already dubious) investment of a handmaiden you really ought to max her out: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=64234

Sisters:
3) She also really only earns her keep if she has a large unit of sisters to make QtF. While it's debatable whether this alone makes her worth nearly 100 pts, her reliability with the machine gun adds to this utility, and QtF ensures a S&S reaction while also giving them effectively extra range and mitigating their lack of musician, so she isn't bad with a big unit...although note that she does need to fire at the same target...

Wardmage for Sisters
4) In my (limited) experience the large block of sisters which the handmaiden demands are vulnerable to war machines, magic, mundane shooting...just about everything. Especially given that between white lions and phoenix guard they're very much the softest target: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=61486 ...to my mind, this rings true even for the US Masters list - kill the sisters easily and suddenly the list doesn't look half as bad. This is where the High Archmage with MR 3 and the Ironcurse Icon on the Handmaiden come in. I need a general and magic anyway, a Lv4 (5 with blessing) with Book isn't a bad option at all, and high is a decent lore and should be OK with this list (which I've found to work quite well independent of lore choice): http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=52057 . Range might be a bit of an issue, but with the mobility of QtF this is minimised. So the unit now has 4++ vs magic and 6++ vs war machines and 0++ vs everything, all boostable with trickle BoH high magic. Sadly no 6++ vs breath weapons or chariot/monster cannons, but it's something. I'm not clear on whether the High lore attribute will allow MR ward save to get beyond 3++ to 2++?, but even 3++ is pretty good. Of course, the unit is vulnerable to miscasts (MR is no BotWD), but this is trickle high BoH we're talking, so fingers crossed (besides, every other damn army has to deal with them - we can get too comfortable you know :wink: )...

Combat/Utility BSB
5) If the handmaiden gets the PoS and reaver bow then this option isn't available for an infantry BSB. I've also found that having a ranged BSB creates conflict between getting a good shot and staying in BSB range, so I've been looking for alternative builds. He could go mounted, but can no longer take the enchanted shield, dawnstone, lance, PoS build which I've recently read about and started using with good effect. Replacing PoS with sword of might is available but packs less punch and IMO doesn't give enough as a lone cav character. But given our access to a cheap pseudo-ward via Shield of Myrwyrm we can still use him as a (risky) frontline character with access to utility items - in this case MR2 and a magic weapon. This brings the PG magical protection up to 2++, on a par with the BotWD on the lions, but still keeps their banner slot free for the necessary razor banner. This now means that all three major units are shielded from magic and are quite solid against shooting too. The other options I was considering were shield/crown of command for stubborn PG (but no MR2) or armour of caledor + halberd and chuck him in the WL with BotWD protection vs magical characters. http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 48&start=0

Lv 2
6) Scroll caddy is a must given that I'm not immune to WMD Big 6 spells, or for that matter hex/augments. Ring also gives PG (assuming he goes there) 3++ vs shooting (and combat for one turn if successful) and boosts his/BSBs deathward to 4++ as a bonus. It's tempting to go high to ensure 'the right' spells for the AM and to maximise on the unit and BSBs pure ward saves, but another lore might be more synergistic with the list?

Should be a decent points denial list with good combat options too...
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Re: Magic, cannon, shooting proof, hardhitting w/handmaiden!2400

#35 Post by Ferny »

I've just come back from my first ever 2-day tournament, where I played MSU. I found finishing games near impossible, which also meant big wins were impossible (or indeed, anything better than a draw!). I'm glad I took MSU because it was something different, and having fought 2 dark elves and 3 high elves (out of 6 games) I'm glad they weren't really mirror matches in any meaningful sense. But now with the new woodies out and it being 6 months since I last used my tried and tested WL:PG list I'm going to come back to it for a little while and see if I've improved my skill in using by playing a different style. I also want to experiment with the build a little, especially in light of the shifting meta. I think once I'm happy with this list again I'll try out some sort of flying circus experiment as I did with my MSU ventures (which are far from dead, but I think I'm a bit MSUed out for the moment) - probably starting with a star dragon :mrgreen: .

Here's my new list:

Lords: 280, cheap-solo caster
Shadow ArchMage Lv4: Scroll, Golden Crown, Ring of Fury, (280)
Heroes: 147, tanky BSB
Noble BSB: Armour of Caledor, Halberd (147)
Characters Total: 427

Double Shadow Archer Double Reaver core:
18 Archers (FC): 210
18 Archers (FC): 210
5xreavers (spears), mus: 90
5xreavers (spears), mus: 90

Special: 1023
23xWhite Lions+FC+BotWD (299+80=379)
24xPhoenix Guard+FC+Razor (360+75=435)
7xSword Masters, banner, banner of discipline (91+25=116)
6xSword Masters, banner, flame banner (91+20=93)

Rare: 350
3xRBT (210)
5xSisters (70)
5xSisters (70)


So, what changes have I planned?

MSU Utility Swordmasters:
After experimenting with a full MSU list I found I really enjoyed these little guys. There's been a lot of discussion as to how viable they are - well - I think they might work as a support element for this list. Support is any of Lv2/DPs/RBTs/Handmaiden etc.

I'll explain later what I'm ditching for them but here's the build I'm planning and what's so cool about it:
7xSword Masters, banner, banner of discipline (91+25=116)
6xSword Masters, banner, flame banner (91+20=93)

1. Flank attacks
It was really good fun setting these up with my MSU list and I want to see whether I can manage this with my main list.

2. Drops
Does what it says on the tin.

3. Flaming Attacks
Always useful to have in combat as well as out.
Question: If I have SM and WL in combat with an enemy, both my units hit at the same initiative step - can the WL benefit from the flaming? Obviously this doesn't help the PG as they go first.

4. Ld10 option
I don't have to put my general in the Discipline unit, but it's an option. This avoids putting what I'm coming to consider as my precious core into spears. I also get a good bodyguard unit against opportunistic assassins.

5. Speedbumps with teeth
So these are a little expensive to be throwaway units, but actually, they're not too bad. Reavers cost me 90pts and lots of folsk pay more than that for theirs with bows. I've seen people sacrifice wizards for speedbumps before. Well, these speedbumps can hit back with some serious damage.

That strikes me as a lot of utility from 200pts. But obviously their big weakness is shooting...but I figure against shooty armies, with my 2 big blocks of infantry I can hide behind them until I pop out mid-game to flank charge, and against non shooty armies I've got more freedom of movement. No champs and no musicians because I need to keep them relatively cheap and their role isn't to absorb flying characters etc. Obviously there's a case for both, but points!


BSB Build:
I've been toying with the idea of losing the Reaver/PoS BSB. I keep forgetting to take the PoS at the right time in the turn sequence, but more critically I find I'm being torn between having him in position to shoot and for BSB re-rolls. Also, if and when something does sneak into my backline he's not got an awful lot of protection. He's a great build but I'm using him wrong.

That got me thinking about other utility options in the context of WL:PG blocks. Given that WL already have stubborn and MR5, I'd be looking to boost the PG, and courtesy of the world's cheapest 4++ pseudo-ward save with the Mywrym shield, either of these are possible:

Build 1: 2++ PG and WL!
Dragon Armour, Myrwyrm Shield, Obsidian Amulet, 5pt magic sword (vs ethereal)

Build 2: Stubborn PG and WL
Dragon Armour, Myrwyrm Shield, crown of command

It's even possible to (kinda) combine the two if you take Build 2 and give the Lv1/2 Scroll+MR1. He's gonna die in combat, but if he's blown the scroll and saved them from MM or whatever then he's largely done his job.

However, I've never really had any problems with PG and until I find otherwise, I think they're actually pretty solid, and maybe I'm being greedy trying to cram them with goodies. So then I turned to:

Build #3: for maximum survivability
Armour of Caledor, Halberd

This has a small bonus of boosting his S to 5 and being a little cheaper. Here he's pretty survivable against RnF, has a fireward and a bonus 6++, and in the BotWD unit is protected from Death and magic weapons and daemon (princes), leaving him only really vulnerable to great weapons. With this build I can keep his flag where I need it. It also has some nice synergy with my new Archmage and Mage set-up.


Magic Set-Up:
I've been toying with some dark elf lists which operate with only a Lv4 scroll caddy and warlocks for support...well, this is strong, but the Lv4 doesn't have the book and does just fine. I've also been playing MSU with a loremaster (with book - essential item for him IMO) and I really missed the scroll caddy on a few occasions. So I'm planning to take the radical step of ditching the book in order to take the scroll on the AM and ditch the caddy. How can I justify that? For a low-casting value lore I can't - the book and trickle are too good. But I'm finally going to try Shadow magic with this list. Tethlis has been using it since the get go and I used it back in 7th. I've put it off, but it just makes sense.

No support caster means an obligatory ring of fury for some back-up casting potential IMO. There's still slots available for 4++, but I'm going to go for the golden crown, save some points and play sneaky (there's already 2++ vs death, so if I can avoid combat I'm sorted).

Here's where it gets sneaky. You can smoke and mirrors before or after the miscast result is rolled (I believe). This means, vs a non-death opponent, I can run him in the Pheonix Guard. If he gets the ring cast he gives them a 3++ ward. If he miscasts at all he can smoke and mirrors to the WL with the BotWD, shifting the BSB across to the PG. Equally if the mage gets into combat he can smoke and mirrors out as I've built the BSB to tank.

Alternatively, vs a non-death opponent, I could sit the BSB in the small Ld boosting swordmaster unit, then, as battle is joined, I smoke and mirrors the general away from combat into the Ld10 bubble unit and put the combat BSB (still in bubble) in to tank in his place. Of course, so long as I'm, not charging, I could simply walk out and do this without smoke and mirrors - that's just an extra escape route.

AM build: Cheap Solo Caster
Shadow ArchMage Lv4: Scroll, Golden Crown, Ring of Fury, (280)


Core:
I'm becoming more and more impressed with core archers, so I'm going to experiment with ditching the helms for a second sizeable block. I did think about all archer core, but decided it was probably over-kill/not enough kill depending on match up, and reavers would be better in slowing and controlling the advance.

Also synergises perfectly with shadow.

Rare with no frosty means I have room for 3xRBTs and 2x5 sisters, which combined 36 archers ought to be enough ranged threat to force them to come to me if I want to stick...
Last edited by Ferny on Thu May 29, 2014 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ferny's WL:PG blocks - no book, no frosty, and MSU SMs!

#36 Post by Curu Olannon »

First of all, interesting list! I think leaving the Frostie at home is the right call with this setup. In my opinion and experience, you can have 2 out of the 4 following: Frostheart, PG, WL, Cavbus. Anything more and I fear you`ll be lacking flexibility: squeezing a frostheart in here would force you to ditch shooting and elites, at which point you have a list with elements that are just marginally too weak to do what they`re supposed to do.

Secondly, I think the lack of versatility in the list is its biggest weakness. If your RBTs are compromised, you are forced to push and your magic is not well suited for applying pressure at a distance. A classic example here is Empire with a cannon or two and a steam tank backed up with light magic, it is not unlikely that this list can neutralize your rbt T1-T2 and rushing into Demis and stank is not something I`d think you want to do. If I remember correctly this is something John Rainbow encountered as well. The question is, what measures can you take?

Of course there`s the obvious answer of ditching the Swordmasters. The question thus becomes if they`re vital to the way you play? Perhaps you can make them work, I`ll be very interested to see some games with this setup as it`s not something I`ve seen before. On one side, I think you`ll find that they are wonderful when you force an opponent`s hand, on another side I think you`ll find them to be dead weight in a matchup where you are the one who`s forced. If SM and WL are in combat and strike at I5 (both of them), WL don`t benefit from flaming. I think this is why some lists find Spears with Flaming to be worth taking, since their ASF applies before I5 elites.

BSB on-foot build is pretty much impossible. Even a 2+ will be laughed at by serious combat units. Perhaps a Spear bunker is what you`re looking for really, to occupy your characters and bring the LD10 as well? It doesn`t have to be big, but it does force you to lose a few Archers. I`d say 15 with FC and +1LD banner is the minimum. From here, your Noble can shoot and have fun with Reaver/PoS. Also, remember that with Shadow you can abuse Smoke and Mirrors to set it up for him: have the AM with the WL for BOTWD and then, with the final spell (or second last, if he saves DD), use the attribute to swap the BSB from the Spears into the WL where he can shoot. Next turn, use your first spell to swap again (you can choose yourself what happens first: lore attribute or miscast effect. Thus, with this approach, you can always use BOTWD to contain the miscast). This should keep both general LD/BSB bubble flexible. Just remember that the Spears are a bunker whose only purpose is to keep the characters alive and the BSB shooting.

Bearing these things in mind, I would propose the following:
AM L4 Scroll, Crown, Ring = 280
BSB Reaver/PoS, Heavy, Halberd = 146
Characters = 426

14 Archers, musician = 150
10 Archers, musician = 110
5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers = 80
15 Spears, FC, +1LD banner = 180
Core = 600

24 WL, FC, BOTWD = 392
25 PG, FC, Razor = 450
7 SM, muso = 101
7 SM, muso = 101
Special = 1044

3 RBT = 210
10 Sisters = 140
Rare = 350

Army total = 2420 (so you need to drop a thing or two, but nothing major).
Thoughts? ;)
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Ferny
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Re: Ferny's WL:PG blocks - no book, no frosty, and MSU SMs!

#37 Post by Ferny »

Curu Olannon wrote:First of all, interesting list! I think leaving the Frostie at home is the right call with this setup. In my opinion and experience, you can have 2 out of the 4 following: Frostheart, PG, WL, Cavbus. Anything more and I fear you`ll be lacking flexibility: squeezing a frostheart in here would force you to ditch shooting and elites, at which point you have a list with elements that are just marginally too weak to do what they`re supposed to do.
I liked frosty but I'm not wedded to him. I still reckon he has a role but I'm going to try something different to what I had before - it's just happy chance that this (might be) stronger.
Secondly, I think the lack of versatility in the list is its biggest weakness. If your RBTs are compromised, you are forced to push and your magic is not well suited for applying pressure at a distance. A classic example here is Empire with a cannon or two and a steam tank backed up with light magic, it is not unlikely that this list can neutralize your rbt T1-T2 and rushing into Demis and stank is not something I`d think you want to do. If I remember correctly this is something John Rainbow encountered as well. The question is, what measures can you take?
I've never been averse to pushing with WL and PG, and with shadow they're both even stronger. It becomes much harder for the opponent to prioritize dispels if these guys are threatening combat as well as having shooting coming in. Pit is presumably good vs those models, and mindrazor or withering would both help. RE: RBTs being shot up - I guess they could be partially protected via deployment, but until I find out otherwise, I'm going to view them as contributing to pinging wounds off nasties and providing a threat range while they're alive, but not core to how I'd get the points off this match-up. I'm not sure what I'm missing here, but games will no doubt tell!
Of course there`s the obvious answer of ditching the Swordmasters. The question thus becomes if they`re vital to the way you play? Perhaps you can make them work, I`ll be very interested to see some games with this setup as it`s not something I`ve seen before. On one side, I think you`ll find that they are wonderful when you force an opponent`s hand, on another side I think you`ll find them to be dead weight in a matchup where you are the one who`s forced.
They're not essential by any stretch. I think this list is very flexible. At the top you said you can have 2 of cavbus, frosty, PG and/or WL. I think they joy of the WL/PG blocks is their flexibility. You have decent robustness on both, decent attacks vs T and armour, reasonable attacks vs volume, stubborn, banner benefits...there's a lot going on there. They need some magical support, but I think there's lots of flexibility for what. Loremaster gives variety, shadow gives offensive and some defensive, heavens is really nice - even high could work nicely I think. So long as there is some magic support I think these two blocks are so strong that it's relatively unimportant which.

Same goes for support elements. Flaming DPs, handmaiden with PoS/Reaver, Lv2 Heavens Caddy - I've tried these so far. Any of them have their place - it's just such a strong core to build around. In this case I've gone for swordmasters to give them a whirl - I think they fill a similar niche to dragon princes, but with significantly less mobility but more hitting power, in addition to the benefits listed in the OP.

I'm not sure how they'll face to be honest, but I'm looking forward to getting some games in with them.
If SM and WL are in combat and strike at I5 (both of them), WL don`t benefit from flaming. I think this is why some lists find Spears with Flaming to be worth taking, since their ASF applies before I5 elites.
Damn. OK, well out with the flaming banner then. One of the things I was chuffed about was that with extra specials it meant I had available banner caddies without having to use core spears. I'll have a little re-think...
BSB on-foot build is pretty much impossible. Even a 2+ will be laughed at by serious combat units.
I don't think it's that bad - which match ups do you see it being laughed at by? Bear in mind there's also a 2++ vs magic weapons. This means he's pretty safe against deamon princes and greater daemons (including their thunderstomps), standard issue blender lords, dreadlords and high elf cav princes. 2+ gives him a solid save against RnF and is better than 4++ until S6 where it's equal and then gets worse at S7 - what out there is hitting at S7 which isn't magical? Given the BotWD I think the improved protection against lesser combat units helps him more than the 4++ constant. I know our tanks of old are dead but I think this is pretty decent...obviously still only T3 2W so we'll see, but short of avoiding combat or mounting him it's the best we can do. Also, he's got a big ol' bodyguard with him, so I'm as unscared for him as I can be given the options we have...
Perhaps a Spear bunker is what you`re looking for really, to occupy your characters and bring the LD10 as well? It doesn`t have to be big, but it does force you to lose a few Archers. I`d say 15 with FC and +1LD banner is the minimum. From here, your Noble can shoot and have fun with Reaver/PoS. Also, remember that with Shadow you can abuse Smoke and Mirrors to set it up for him: have the AM with the WL for BOTWD and then, with the final spell (or second last, if he saves DD), use the attribute to swap the BSB from the Spears into the WL where he can shoot. Next turn, use your first spell to swap again (you can choose yourself what happens first: lore attribute or miscast effect. Thus, with this approach, you can always use BOTWD to contain the miscast). This should keep both general LD/BSB bubble flexible. Just remember that the Spears are a bunker whose only purpose is to keep the characters alive and the BSB shooting.

Bearing these things in mind, I would propose the following:
AM L4 Scroll, Crown, Ring = 280
BSB Reaver/PoS, Heavy, Halberd = 146
Characters = 426

14 Archers, musician = 150
10 Archers, musician = 110
5 Reavers = 80
5 Reavers = 80
15 Spears, FC, +1LD banner = 180
Core = 600

24 WL, FC, BOTWD = 392
25 PG, FC, Razor = 450
7 SM, muso = 101
7 SM, muso = 101
Special = 1044

3 RBT = 210
10 Sisters = 140
Rare = 350

Army total = 2420 (so you need to drop a thing or two, but nothing major).
Thoughts? ;)
I'm not keen to lose the archers for spears, especially as I have magic banner slots available on the swordmasters - that's one of the attractions of them. I think 24 vs 36 archers will make quite a big difference (especially given shadow). That said, if I were super keen to include flaming combat I could keep your spear block and switch the banners...I'm not sure I'm that keen though, and I don't know that a block that small would last long, although it probably doesn't have to to have served its purpose...but it comes back to core - I actually think core points are quite precious to us now, and while obviously I don't want to go over min-core, I think swordmasters can do the spearman job better (assuming the job isn't a deep block of steadfast breakers, which I don't think this list needs).
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