The Defense [ETC]

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vespacian1
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#31 Post by vespacian1 »

Hey Furion, interesting list.
Do you not miss the frosties?
Furion
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#32 Post by Furion »

Played 4 games so far. In this list they are not really needed.
Malhandir's Feed wrote:Second, I really can't see why you wouldn't want eagles. They really help with getting your combats in the right places and at the wrong time.
If they were free, I would take them ;) in roster building it is always a trade of points from one aspect of the game to another. It is vital to maintain point ratio of support units to damage dealers. With my roster I've decided that 4 RBT's and some part of Teclis will do the support part. With slow units (infantry) who don't want to nor have the option to be in "important spot" fast, this amount of points invested may be enough.

And finally, if you insist on me putting an eagle there - what would you drop out from the list?
Third, Articuno is far too good with the blocks of combat troops not to include it. The lack of lore of Life doesn't help, but hey, that cannon isn't targeting Teclis if its targeting the Frostie!
That's a very costy shield for 240 pts ;) vs cannons I preffer to hide him from cannon's line of sight. On most if not all ETC maps it is possible to do that.

Thank you very much for all your comments, cheers
Furion
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#33 Post by Furion »

New upgrade: I need a dragon armour on noble to get his ward save 3+ vs spells. He is picked too often by snipes!
Teclis, High Loremaster, 450
General; Magic Level 5
#Moon Staff of Lileath [0.0] (Ignore miscast OR add 1 PD to each spell. One Use Only)
#Sword of Teclis [0.0] (1A, Wounds on 2+, no AS)
#Scroll of Hoeth [0.0] (Dispell Scroll; we both roll a d6, if I roll more the spell is destroyed. One Use Only)
#War Crown of Saphery [0.0] (Magic Level 5)

Noble BSB, 159
Great Weapon; Dragon Armour; Battle Standard
Obsidian Lodestone [45.0]
Charmed Shield [5.0]

29 Archers: FCG, 320
5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bow (swap), 85
5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bow (swap), 85
5 Silver Helms: Shields, Musician, 125
4 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 4x70
28 White Lions: FCG, Banner of World Drag, 444
25 Phoenix Guard: FCG, Razor Standard, 450

Models in Army: 105
Total Army Cost: 2399.0
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Furion
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#34 Post by Furion »

With special characters hovering over ETC, I'll revive my list once more:

A few extra notes:

- Getting Death Snipes on Teclis, even with 4+ ward, is not an option. In not-so-rare case that he dies, it's game over. It's not like I have a 1++ prince to continue fighting.
- With this roster design, I think it is possible to keep Teclis in 2nd row of units, outside Death range. However doing so would require rendering a unit of archers useless, and thats pretty bummer
- I feel like the BSB could do more. Sure, he is giving MR and providing rerolls. He is ultra fragile and can't fight.

This sums up to changes:
Limit Archer Size -> Teclis in them, position more defensively -> no need to MR3 -> MR3 less efficient, since less models, so no big deal -> Make BSB 1++ on horsie! -> go with 7 Silver Helms for LoS! for BSB

End Result:
Teclis, High Loremaster, 450
General; Magic Level 5
#Moon Staff of Lileath [0.0] (Ignore miscast OR add 1 PD to each spell. One Use Only)
#Sword of Teclis [0.0] (1A, Wounds on 2+, no AS)
#Scroll of Hoeth [0.0] (Dispell Scroll; we both roll a d6, if I roll more the spell is destroyed. One Use Only)
#War Crown of Saphery [0.0] (Magic Level 5)

Noble on Barded Steed, 175
Longbow; Dragon Armour; Battle Standard;
Sword of Might [20.0]
Enchanted Shield [5.0]
Dawnstone [25.0]

23 Archers: FCG, 260
5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bows (swap), 85
5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bows (swap), 85
7 Silver Helms: Shields, Musician, 171
4 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 4x70
28 White Lions: FCG, Banner of World Drag, 444
25 Phoenix Guard: FCG, Razor Standrard, 450

Models in Army: 102
Total Army Cost: 2400.0
C&C warmly welcomed!

cheers
Furion
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#35 Post by Ferny »

I wonder whether you might find your BSB a bit vulnerable/Silver Helms role a bit compromised when you play this?

I see the temptation to have a mounted BSB in an essentially infantry army (1+ FTW), but assuming he will default sit with the SH rather than reavers, what would be his and their roles? Usually small units of SH are good for protecting flanks, harassing chaff/skirmishers etc, backline hunting if you can get round there, and some targetted flank CR boosts via S5 charge and 2+AS.

A (relatively) not-fighty BSB (in part because he's just a noble and not supporting a prince) adds relatively little to these roles. By contrast he wants to be fairly central (not flanks or chasing chaff), and potentially actually protected from combat. Also, SH can be, to a certain extent, throw away units...but they become much less so with the BSB in tow. I think mounted BSB works well in a cav bus and probably even works if supporting a noble rather than prince but compromises both SH and BSB roles in an infantry army.

On the vulnerability front - it wouldn't take many cannon shots to deplete the unit size down to the point that even small arms fire and MM are being randomised onto the BSB. Sure, 1+ should save him, but with only 2W and not necessarily being within 12" of Teclis for a Lifebloom it seems a little risky.

Out of curiosity - reaver bow/pot of strength seems to be a fairly standard foot build for infantry armies - is there a reason you haven't gone for this?
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#36 Post by Elindar »

I'm with Ferny on this one, synergy between this BSB build and rest of the roster does not sound optimal. He looks like an easy target for death snipes.

I've been wondering if this kind of roster could be effective without Teclis (in a no SC environment). Do you think a version with a loremaster and a lvl4 could do same job?

Something like that:
Archmage lvl4, Earthing Rod, Obsidian Lodestone, Shadows @290
Loremaster, Scroll, Armor of Caledor, Ironcurse icon @310
BSB Reaver Bow, Potion of Strengh, Charmed Shield, Dragon Armour, Great Weapon @159

28 archers full command @310
2*5 Reavers Bows @2*85
5 Silver Helms Shield and Musician @125

23 PG full Command Razor @420
25 Lions full Command BoWD @405

3 Rbts @ 3*70

Total 2399
1 less RBT and smaller elites, but 2 units may have a 2++ vs magic, and BSB bow can act as the 4th RBT.
Shadows to help shooting and play with smoke and mirrors with the 3 characters for good positioning.
Heavens might be helpful too.
Would love having Standard of Discipline somewhere, but shooty BSB seems mandatory with only 3RBTS.
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Chracian
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#37 Post by Chracian »

I've used a bsb on a horse in a loremaster/infantry list but found that the bsb unit (9 silver helms, no prince) just can't do enough; also it's quite easy to have the bsb out of range of the main units and not actually provide the benefits he should. With a frosty they can grind away at units, but it's not optimal.

It's a nice idea (who doesn't want re-rollable 1+ AS?) but I've not managed to get it to work properly, largely due to the points ferny mentioned. Mind you, you're a better player than me, if you can make it work I'd be delighted!
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#38 Post by Lord Anathir »

bsb can always join the BOTWD unit vs a death magic army? There can't be many races with both death magic and cannons/stone throwers.
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#39 Post by Furion »

Elindar wrote:I'm with Ferny on this one, synergy between this BSB build and rest of the roster does not sound optimal. He looks like an easy target for death snipes.

I've been wondering if this kind of roster could be effective without Teclis (in a no SC environment). Do you think a version with a loremaster and a lvl4 could do same job?

Something like that:
Archmage lvl4, Earthing Rod, Obsidian Lodestone, Shadows @290
Loremaster, Scroll, Armor of Caledor, Ironcurse icon @310
BSB Reaver Bow, Potion of Strengh, Charmed Shield, Dragon Armour, Great Weapon @159

28 archers full command @310
2*5 Reavers Bows @2*85
5 Silver Helms Shield and Musician @125

23 PG full Command Razor @420
25 Lions full Command BoWD @405

3 Rbts @ 3*70

Total 2399
1 less RBT and smaller elites, but 2 units may have a 2++ vs magic, and BSB bow can act as the 4th RBT.
Shadows to help shooting and play with smoke and mirrors with the 3 characters for good positioning.
Heavens might be helpful too.
Would love having Standard of Discipline somewhere, but shooty BSB seems mandatory with only 3RBTS.
Loremaster is an overinvestment. You can't make it work with so few dice. In a non-SC enviroment I exchange Teclis for L4 Shadow, BoH, Ring of Fury and L1 Beasts, Scroll, Ruby Ring. They cost roughly the same.
Ferny wrote:I wonder whether you might find your BSB a bit vulnerable/Silver Helms role a bit compromised when you play this?

I see the temptation to have a mounted BSB in an essentially infantry army (1+ FTW), but assuming he will default sit with the SH rather than reavers, what would be his and their roles? Usually small units of SH are good for protecting flanks, harassing chaff/skirmishers etc, backline hunting if you can get round there, and some targetted flank CR boosts via S5 charge and 2+AS.

A (relatively) not-fighty BSB (in part because he's just a noble and not supporting a prince) adds relatively little to these roles. By contrast he wants to be fairly central (not flanks or chasing chaff), and potentially actually protected from combat. Also, SH can be, to a certain extent, throw away units...but they become much less so with the BSB in tow. I think mounted BSB works well in a cav bus and probably even works if supporting a noble rather than prince but compromises both SH and BSB roles in an infantry army.

On the vulnerability front - it wouldn't take many cannon shots to deplete the unit size down to the point that even small arms fire and MM are being randomised onto the BSB. Sure, 1+ should save him, but with only 2W and not necessarily being within 12" of Teclis for a Lifebloom it seems a little risky.
I just use him totally differently. I don't bind him to a unit of SH - I do that only when there are cannons. Otherwise he works independently, same as a unit of Silver Helms. His role is not to fight and win fights, but to constrict enemy's movement.
Out of curiosity - reaver bow/pot of strength seems to be a fairly standard foot build for infantry armies - is there a reason you haven't gone for this?
I've ended up moving my characters way to often, hence Reaver Bow didn't cut it. Effectively getting 4s5 hits per battle is not worth it in comparison to MR3 / 1++ horse.
Chracian wrote:I've used a bsb on a horse in a loremaster/infantry list but found that the bsb unit (9 silver helms, no prince) just can't do enough; also it's quite easy to have the bsb out of range of the main units and not actually provide the benefits he should. With a frosty they can grind away at units, but it's not optimal.

It's a nice idea (who doesn't want re-rollable 1+ AS?) but I've not managed to get it to work properly, largely due to the points ferny mentioned. Mind you, you're a better player than me, if you can make it work I'd be delighted!
As above. I just assigned different goals to this 1++ char. I don't bind him with unit of SH, I don't expect him to win any fight. He is just to slow enemy advance down.

cheers
Furion
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#40 Post by Furion »

Sadly, ETC community decided to ban Special Characters for forseeable future. Still, I've decided to toy around with idea of list presented above but without SC. Here's what I've come up with:
Archmage, 310
General; Magic Level 4; Lore of Heaven
Book of Hoeth [55.0]
Golden Crown of Atrazar [10.0]
Khaine's Ring of Fury [25.0]

Mage, 110
Magic Level 1; Lore of Beasts
Dispel Scroll [25.0]

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, 170
Dragon Armour;
Enchanted Shield [5.0]
Sword of Might [20.0]
Dawnstone [25.0]

5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bow (swap), 85
5 Ellyrian Reavers: Bow (swap), 85
7 Silver Helms: Shields, Musician, 171
4 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 70
23 Archers: FCG, 260
28 White Lions: FCG, Banner of World Drag, 444
24 Phoenix Guard: FCG, Razor Standard, 435
1 Great Eagle, 50

Models in Army: 102
Total Army Cost: 2400
Should still have punch + enough combat boosts to be fighty. I've opted for L1 Beasts mage for signature spell, in order to not be forced to swap additional damage dealing spell for combat boost.

2+ ward save vs cannon allows for some safe plays. The rest is pretty much the same.

The only real question is whether shadow is better than heaven on BoH archmage. I'm just afraid that with shadow some armies will be able to outmaneuver or outshoot me. With Heavens I have a reply for corner armies.

As to some minor details regarding ETC restrictions, this roster is anticipating the new draft for HE, when an extra eagle and BoH and BotWD in a no-forsite army is possible.

Eagerly awaiting your responses.

Cheers
Furion
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#41 Post by Arhain »

Out of curiosity when you do bind the BSB to the Sh, do you run them 4x2?

Solid list overall, fairly standard setup, but it's the lore choices that really set it apart. Heavens is a bit overlooked, and with the loss of rerolls on our great weapons, heavens now synergizes a lot with the elites, and works great with the RBTs (not sure if youve experienced the reroll 1s to hit and to wound on some bolt throwers yet).
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#42 Post by Baleanoon »

When are you choosing spells? I was under the impression if you could choose spells it had to be done at the army list stage.
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#43 Post by Furion »

Baleanoon wrote:When are you choosing spells? I was under the impression if you could choose spells it had to be done at the army list stage.
Usually yes - but thats not the case with Teclis. His rules specificaly state, that you don't do that. He generates spells as every other wizard - that is when you deploy him on the table.
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#44 Post by Baleanoon »

Furion wrote:
Baleanoon wrote:When are you choosing spells? I was under the impression if you could choose spells it had to be done at the army list stage.
Usually yes - but thats not the case with Teclis. His rules specificaly state, that you don't do that. He generates spells as every other wizard - that is when you deploy him on the table.
Very interesting. I'll have to give him a more through trail now that I'm back to the Asur.
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#45 Post by Elindar »

Is level1 beasts that helpful? I guess he defaults to Wyssan almost every game, but casting this spell early game is often irrelevant, and his high casting value means you need at least 3 dices to cast it with a level1. Using archmage to cast iceshard and harmonic uses same number of dices, also gives really good results and have a higher prob of been casted thanks to the book. Lvl2 upgrade sounds attractive on him.
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#46 Post by arighi »

Furion wrote:
Baleanoon wrote:When are you choosing spells? I was under the impression if you could choose spells it had to be done at the army list stage.
Usually yes - but thats not the case with Teclis. His rules specificaly state, that you don't do that. He generates spells as every other wizard - that is when you deploy him on the table.
Sorry for resuming this old thread. I'm also planning to bring Teclis to a local tournament, the possibility to choose different spells at each match looks awesome. However, BRB p. 134, under "Wizards and spell lores" says:

"If you have a Wizard that is allowed to choose specific spells, you must select which spells they are at the time you pick your army."

So, I guess I have to write the spells in my army list... or am I missing something? Thanks!
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#47 Post by Furion »

What you quote here are the normal rules for spell selection. Teclis however has its own wording for selecting spells, which starts with "he doesnt generate spells using the normal rules" hence he does what his description says, in the spell generation phase, and that takes place before deployment.

Cheers
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Re: Teclis List [ETC]

#48 Post by arighi »

Thanks, Furion. Makes sense. About the tournament, I guess I'll write the spells in my army list anyway and will ask the tournament orgnizers. But I'll try to convince them quoting your statement. :)
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#49 Post by Malossar »

Hey Furion do you find yourself missing a frost phoenix or is it just to make yourself cannon proof?
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#50 Post by Furion »

Malossar Dragonborne wrote:Hey Furion do you find yourself missing a frost phoenix or is it just to make yourself cannon proof?
Hey. Its not like the frostie is free. I look at it as an exchange, not lack of smth.

In this regard the answer is no, i dont need it. I compensare his tanky role with 1++ bsb, and when it comes to killing things, then PG have a better damage output. In a list designed on survivability and defending, I can live without a frostie :)

Cheers
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#51 Post by Malossar »

Hey Furion!

I'm taking your list (adopted to 2500) to league night tonight. I'll let you know how it goes. In my normal super fast aggressive lists I take lots of reavers, so I thought it'd be a nice change to try running without them!


Archmage, 310
General; Magic Level 4; Lore of Heaven
Book of Hoeth [55.0]
Golden Crown of Atrazar [10.0]
Khaine's Ring of Fury [25.0]

Mage, 110
Magic Level 1; Lore of Beasts
Dispel Scroll [25.0]

Noble, Battle Standard 155
Dragon Armor [10.0]
Enchanted Shield [5.0]
Reaver Bow [25.0]
Potion of Strength [20.0]

9x Silver Helms w. Full Command, Shields [237.0]
23x Archers w. Full Command [260.0]
12x Archers w. Musician – [130.0]

28x White Lions w. Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon – [444.0]
21x Phoenix Guard w. Full Command, Razor Standard – [390.0]

Great Eagle
Great Eagle
6x Sisters of Avelorn - 84
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower x4 - 280

Let me know what you think and I'll post a BR later.
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#52 Post by Furion »

Finally! As predicted, my "The Defense" list is legal under ETC comp :D

Just won a 24 man tournament with it. Battle Report can be found here (click!)

cheers
Furion
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#53 Post by Furion »

Made a filler to my Phoenix Guard unit. Check it out here (click!)

Also, that is the roster that I'll probably bring to SCGT 2014 in April. Will take Teclis instead of Archmage and Mage. Apart from that, it's all the same :)

Also-also, a question to English / GB players: is L4 Lore of Life in meta in your area? I'd appreciate if you could care to post for an answer, that would help me greatly in tailoring the roster.

cheers
Furion
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#54 Post by Marinero »

Hey Furion,

Firstly, I want to say that I fondly follow your post and reports - I like your style ;)

On the post:
1. Re: Teclis list - I was hoping that SC would be allowed, but ETC Hammer have their ego threatened (must change and interfere ;) ). However, I feel that in the case of a Teclis list, only a BSB should be taken, as Mr. T is sufficient as a magical phase and one needs troops.

2. Re: standard list - a question - how are you dealing with regenerating enemy troops? Have you found them to be a problem?

Thanks.
M
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#55 Post by Furion »

Yeah, they are a problem. However they are dealt with in different ways.

1. Trolls (OnG)
I try to counter them with spell selection. Obligatory Iceshard Blizzard (-1 to hit), Curse of Midnight (reroll 6) and Harmonic Convergence (reroll 1) and also Wind Blast. Wind blast is actually pretty essential here. Reform one of your units into column, put archmage there, cast big version of Wind Blast, push trolls outside LD / BSB bubble. It is not that hard to execute, and if you manage to do that, then it's pretty much GG.

2. Trolls (WoCh)
Here I take a different approach. Shoot down Daemon Prince and delay trolls until then. You can't really windblast them out of the game. The reason for that is that WoCh is very much more mobile than OnG (Chariots, Chimeras, Juggs) and a crafty reform to push them out is pretty much not possible with getting your archmage / unit killed.

3. Crypt Horrors
Those are an easy one, because there are 2 ways of dealing with them efficiently. First, you have your reroll 1's, +1S / +1T White Lions / PG. Also, reroll 6's. On the top of that, 1++ BSB is destined to hold them forever. If enemy has banshees, I often put him in a column of 5 Ellyrian Reavers / SH. If you engage your enemy on turn 4 or so, then it is pretty certain that you'll make it till the end of the game.

4. Beasts of Nurgle
BSB solo + WL BotWD.

cheers
Furion
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#56 Post by Marinero »

Thanks, some good points and ideas that you are giving me...
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#57 Post by Galdor »

Hi Furion,

I like your list and this is an interesting thread. I was wondering why you usually prefer taking Teclis over Lvl 4 Archmage with Book of Hoeth and Lvl 1? Is it the ability to pick spells? (sorry if you've replied to this before!). Also when using Teclis, with who do you usually deploy him - the Archers? or White Lions to make use of the Botwd?

I'm considering trying out Teclis against a Vampire Counts opponent whom I haven't beaten yet. He usually has a Black Knight deathstar containing a blender lord and 2 other Vampires - very nasty!

Thanks!
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Re: The Defense [ETC]

#58 Post by demoneclipse »

Galdor wrote:Hi Furion,

I like your list and this is an interesting thread. I was wondering why you usually prefer taking Teclis over Lvl 4 Archmage with Book of Hoeth and Lvl 1? Is it the ability to pick spells? (sorry if you've replied to this before!). Also when using Teclis, with who do you usually deploy him - the Archers? or White Lions to make use of the Botwd?

I'm considering trying out Teclis against a Vampire Counts opponent whom I haven't beaten yet. He usually has a Black Knight deathstar containing a blender lord and 2 other Vampires - very nasty!

Thanks!
Having an Archmage and a Mage uses almost the same amount of points than Teclis. With current power dice generation you will use all your dice with a single caster, letting the mage to be just a scroll carrier. Teclis already have a scroll, that is even better than the simple one. Teclis can also choose his spells and cast with a higher value. BoH is better than the +1 to cast from Teclis, but isn't worth all the other benefits Teclis offer.

If you want to beat a death star you can try to pull this out with Teclis:

- Use chaff to position the death star into your advantage.
- Soulblight (2 or 3 dice)
- Dwellers Bellow (6 dice hopping for IF)
- Hit it with Phoenix Guard and flank with White Lions or just have a large horde of White Lions to smash it. A noble with Sword of Anti-Heroes or Caradryan can help if there are many characters in the DS.
- Profit

ps.: sorry to intrude your conversation
Nagashias
Posts: 209
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:13 pm

Re: The Defense [ETC]

#59 Post by Nagashias »

How do you deal with etheral units?
demoneclipse
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 6:34 pm

Re: The Defense [ETC]

#60 Post by demoneclipse »

Nagashias wrote:How do you deal with etheral units?
You can use sisters, missile spells or a good Champion with magic weapon, where Caradryan is always a good option. If you are specially worried about those I would recommend swapping Teclis for Alarielle as she gives magical attacks to the unit.
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