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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:40 pm 
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Green Istari

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Personally I prefer to write for 2400. I find it easier to add 100pts of stuff than take it away! How did the Star Lance guy go last weekend dude? I completely agree on the musician. Lost a round of shooting on a 12-strong unit with longbows recently because they didn't have one. Never again! Lecai was having some joy with something like this:

Archmage, lvl4, Shadow, Book, G/Crown
Dawnstone BSB
Handmaiden, Reaver, PoS (General?)

Archers
7 Helms
3 x Reavers

27 Lions, World Dragon
24 PG, Razor

20 Sisters
3 RBT

The point about WE's was more that my collection lets me field pretty much anything in the book. I just don't have the HE figs to get optimal set-ups. In general I consider HE's a slightly stronger book with fewer bad match-ups.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:50 pm 
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hey seradain,

have you played many games against other elves with your current list?

is the bus able to survive the shooting at its current size?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:13 pm 
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Sparky,

Played against a fair few elf lists, yes. The UK meta seems to be full of them - dark elves in particular, but high elves quite a lot (less so when special characters aren't allowed), and wood elves feature enough that you need to worry about them because waywatchers suck HARD.

Ostensibly 12 helms full command is vulnerable to shooting-heavy elf lists - as SA mentioned above, a 2+ save fails enough against armour piercing attacks that you can't rest on your laurels. However, the rest of this list is packed with anti-elf goodness in the form of archers, repeaters and (always vs elves) 3 soul quenches plus Hand of Glory. Waywatchers, archers, reapers, dark riders and warlocks don't like these things, and all such tools take the pressure off the knights very nicely. I've played wood elves only 4 times now, but each opponent has looked a long way away from taking the bus off. Throw in 3++ phoenix guard and the other High spells to taste (not least throwing the bus around with WBW, sniping DE cowboys with unforging or burning Level 4 crossbow/archer bunkers with convocation), and the list has very many tools for killing elves. High elves are different, but phoenix guard eat the great weapon elites, and most HE players I've met don't spam high magic, so I usually end up throwing more missiles than them and can snipe out/rush their repeater bolt throwers to dominate the shooting war - always the key against elves (the other big thing is thht you'll always want to unforge some silly-good HE item). I quite like all these lists as a matchup.

I have yet to face one of those HE monster-mash lists. I'll report back when I do.... a mate of mine was recently fielding a three-frost phoenix list so I might try and draw him away from his recent foray into 40K...


SA,

I'm loving the new noble. I was most worried about what uses I'd find for him against shooting-spam lists like lizardmen, but these lists also tend to feature cowboys and he's excellent at killing these. Best thing about him is the flexible movement - he's whereever you want him whenever you want him there. Then he hits like a freight train. And he takes cannon balls to the face but just keeps on trucking. And, if you're playing ogres and feeling filthy, you can put him in the helm bus and use him to eat gutstars. So far (5 games) he's killed:

2 units of skink skirmishers
2 Scar veterans
6 dwarf rangers
1 gyrocopter
1 dwarf cannon
1 thane
10 handgunners
5 deadhounds
1 mortis engine

Against wood elves I had him giving Ld 9 to archers and preventing troublesome combat units from running at them for an easy kill. Many more games to play (most of these were 2.4 so he didn't have the potion of foolhardiness), but so far very promising. Against ogres is where he really stands to shine - he can hunt ironblasters and pin mournfang, but he fluffed and died against 2 mournfang in one round of combat so.... yeah he needs more practice there, obviously.

Tomorrow: MK reports games 4 and 5... Monsters of Chaos and Kairos+Epidemus Daemons.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:05 am 
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first turn is critical against wood elves I have found, I would have 2 regular wood elf opponents who wouldn't leave home without 16 or 20 waywatchers, that means 5 dead knights at least if you don't get first turn.
therefore I find myself deploying quite compact and defensively to try and apply cover modifiers. and then a big push.
unless you can nail their characters it is hard to get more than a small win, any small unit will be wiped of the board.

soul quench spam is just ace, it really puts the pain on any T3 unit. never leave home without 3 attempts if possible!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:34 pm 
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Oh I'm always feeling filthy!

:)

High Magic was ever epic vs elves. Especially now with Shield and whatnot. The multi-Phoenix lists can be brutal, the movement is hard to cope with.

When's the next tournament then MrS? I see London's Calling is still taking players...

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:26 pm 
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Will reply in full tonight boys but, for now, it only beholdens me to say HOLY SHIITE look what happened to our lords allowance.

First stop is a double cavprince build, of course. Looking to buff up the Star Lance noble and use him as a fellow to Seredain or a monster assassin (reckon we'll see a few more of these now...).

Current thinking: Star Lance, Armour of Destiny, Potion of Strength, Shield, Halberd.

Finally I suspect this means mining out the eagles, taking the archers down to 15 with Muso and swapping in another 5 vanilla reavers.

I don't think I like what just happened, but I guess we all have to deal with change at some point...

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:02 pm 
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Won't Seredain get jealous?

:)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:16 pm 
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If nothing else I'd like to yet again take this opportunity to argue for the fact that your Archers need to disappear. With more people loading up on wms to counter characters and your bus now sporting 2 Princes, an Archmage and a BSB, I think it's time to get that Banner in alongside a proper bus ;) I think I`d do the second Prince like this:
Ogre Blade + Talisman of Preservation + TOTS => With High Magic this is pretty insane. You could arguably look towards getting that 1+ armour save, but it would mean having to lose one of the 3 above which I'm reluctant to do.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:44 pm 
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SA,

If it means Seredain isn't constantly getting snapped apart by monster characters, definitely not!

I haven't put enough thought into the future to think in detail about what armies we're likely to face. Ostensibly, you have to assume we'll see more characters on monsters, and more cannons. But plenty of armies can go another way than the star dragon route. You're just as likely to see massed cheap characters either running solo or in a single unit - gutstars filled with characters - or at a lesser level a slaughtermaster and tyrant in the one block before you get to the bruiser BSB and butcher/firebelly extras.

In short, at either extreme I foresee either a monster-rider + level 4-based setup, or level 4, + hero spam-based builds (warriors, lizards, ogres, dark elves). So for a cavalry unit like mine, we're either looking at hitting units with lots of characters, or we're looking at running into monster lords, with magic support, who individually will nail our characters in challenges (I am hoping, with this latest development, that GW get rid of (or modify) challenges so that two mounted characters can tackle a massive dragonlord without him having anywhere to hide).

Perhaps the quickest change we'll see is a bunch of people freaking out and taking monster and, contrarily, cannon heavy armies. People with an eye on the filthy combos will be taking double level 4 - perhaps Life and Death, or Shadow and Death (everyone loves death - now they can take it without worrying about losing army synergies).

So I'm thinking about fielding an army which, to some extent, accounts for these kind of shizstorms.

1) Magic. All of these new character-heavy armies will still only have 2d6 power dice, and maybe only +1 arcane item choices, with which to bludgeon their opponents to death. The same applies to us. For now, I don't foresee that I won't spend my 2d6 dice on the spells I already have available - 6 assorted high magic spells plus the ring of fury. Opponents' magic defence may get better, but the likelihood is more that their offense will improve. This puts us in a quandary. Use our new character allowances to punish players' slightly-adapted defence, or compensate for our enemies' increase in power by boosting our own defence. To my mind, high magic offers us a middle way: increase our ability to cast more high spells, and we simultaneously improve our defence through shield of Saphery. I think this looks to be my strategy. 6 levels of high magic will suffice if my character builds can take advantage of the buff.

2) Combat. In the most likely bad-case scenarios, we're either looking at massed heroes, double the number of traditional combat lords, or a much higher instance of monster-lord. Now, since I'm looking to keep my magic phase more or less the way it is (it's about the synergies, not about the 6-dicing one spell), I'll look to counter these with my choice of combat characters.

The first change looks to be the new lord. I'll try a prince as follows:

Prince - Star Lance, Armour of Destiny, Potion of Strength, Halberd, Shield, Barded Elven Steed.

Normally I'd want to put Potion of Foolhardiness on this character, but if I'm more likely to be facing T7/T6 monsters, I'll be more worried about rubber-lancing with the lance alone. Potion of Strength would make this lord wound a star dragon on a 2+ on the charge. Alternatively, it buys me two rounds of strength against other kinds of unit. Good flexibility. Armour of Destiny, meanwhile, gives me easy access to a character with a 3++.

So to the BSB. I'm not too sure about this. Instantly, I want to switch the ogre blade to the sword of anti-heroes. I'm tempted to accuse myself of hysteria for thinking of it, but the likelihood of facing character buses is surely increased by these latest changes, and this sword is perhaps too tempting as a result. Since it's 10 points cheaper than the ogre blade, I can also squeeze the golden crown in there to protect against:

3) More cannons. More solo characters will encourage more cannons. Seredain himself is just as vulnerable as ever, after Look Out Sir )albeit I should be able to spam more high spells to buff his ward), but at least a 2++ on the BSB will protect another character against single shots (along with the 3++ on the star lance prince). I'm quite keen on bringing in Book of Hoeth on the archmage and switching the ring of fury onto the bus's level 2 mage - a chunkier cast of a critical spell from the archmage is likely to draw another dispel dice, giving the mage another spell is just another chance to buff the helms' ward save when they're out of combat, and gives me more freedom to choose two combat-friendly spells in the first place, safe in the knowledge that I have the ring's missile in my back pocket. So, for now (without much in the way of reflection), I'm looking at a list as follows:


Seredain - Prince - Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Steed - 285
Lecalion - High Archmage - Talisman of Preservation, Book of Hoeth - 320
Galahad - Prince - Star Lance, Armour of Destiny, Potion of Strength, Halberd, Shield, Barded Steed - 276

Caradath - BSB - Sword of Anti-heroes, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown, Dragon Armour, Barded Steed - 165
Thalias - High Mage - Dispel Scroll, Ring of Khaine's Fury, Elven Steed - 180

12 Silver Helms - Full Command, Shields - 306
15 Archers - Musician - 160
5 Reavers - 80
5 Reavers - 80

20 Phoenix Guard - Keeper, Standard, Razor Standard - 365

4 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 280

2497 points.

Now, I'm tempted to restore the Scroll of Shielding onto the archmage, switch Ironcurse Icon onto the BSB, Potion of Foolhardiness on to Seredain, the musician back onto the phoenix guard (its absence is controversial), and having 23 points to spend on something else. For now, having the Book feels like a good way to stretch the most out of my magic phase and therefore give me the best chance of giving the level 2 space to stack up ward saves on the helm bus.

Playtesting should commence in a week or two.

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Last edited by Seredain on Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:57 am, edited 8 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:07 am 
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Curu,

Just noticed your post. The ogre blade is a good all-purpose weapon, but it's not a combat character-killer. Well, it is eventually, but 1+ characters can hold up against Str 6 pretty well, and T7 monsters won't care too much. I think the Star Lance + Potion has better utility for monster/character assassination. If I kept the ogre blade, I feel the BSB would still be its natural place for killing softer (non-lord) targets or the weaker heroes.

The Other Trickster's Shard is ostensibly a no-brainer item against a character-heavy meta, but in a unit toting high magic ward saves (like the helms or phoenix guard), it doesn't make enough sense.

Now, Banner of the World Dragon. My opinion on this hasn't changed much. Let's forget comp for the moment (though you can be pretty sure that the Banner will be hit hard at plenty of tournaments): the Banner will continue to do nothing against great weapon lords, mundane-weapon spam-heroes, most war machines, combat buses (core knight buses, gutsars, monstrous cavalry, big 'uns). I'd be spending 176-ish points on a character who couldn't fight. It seems to me that the sword of anti-heroes has potentially much more game-changing ability than this banner where, as in the case of my army, I'll be picking up ward saves from Shield of Saphery, including an easy 3++ on the Star Lance lord.

Archers. If we're looking at a cannon-heavy meta, then 30" shots with a buffing ability from Hand of Glory become more important. Short of attacking war machines directly or getting within 18" for soul quench, long range shots remain our best weapon against them. Dropping archers from 23 to 15 strikes me as an unfortunate necessity to include the extra lord character, not as something to be welcomed. Of course, a unit of 15 will always serve in the anti-chaff war - of more imprortance during those instances where my two princes are running in the same unit.

It's early days (the earliest), but for now I don't think I'm missing the Banner or feeling that archers are pointless. Time will tell I guess!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:13 am 
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mount the lvl4 mage instead of the lvl 2 perhaps?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:39 am 
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Perhaps, but the fundamental role of the archmage hasn't changed. He's there to cast the spells you want him to cast - and as such he remains your quarterback character, in range of the right targets (friend and foe) first and foremost. For all you want to be spamming those extra ward saves on the bus, you'll want first to be casting your spells on the right units (in particular unforging and convocation, but also soul quench and the body of utility spells). An archmage in a knight bus is great, but he's always going to be split between buffing saves on the combat block and keeping targets in line of sight for direct damage spells - two contradictory behaviours. A level 2 with the ring - 3 spells - strikes me as a decent compromise and allows me to throw 5-6 dice at an important spell with the archmage without risking the miscast that makes the Banner an important choice.

The short point is that, for me, the cavalry archmage is about as useful/problematic as he ever was. I'm not sure the new army structure changes this unless, of course, I wanted to go double level 4.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:00 am 
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true, I guess you don't want an all eggs in one basket approach too.

now that you have loaded another 276 points into your bus, what happens when you face dwellers/final trans etc?

you don't have another heavy cav unit to put one prince into or have you found the number 6 spells to be a problem?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:09 am 
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Number 6 spells are always a problem for a bus list. If your prince and BSB go down, you're going to struggle - that's just an unfortunate truth, albeit separating your general from your archmage is much less risky.

Normally, I don't intend to run the new prince in the bus, though. The good thing about cavalry characters is that you always have the option but, mostly, I'll look to field this guy solo or else to sit in an infantry unit and strike out solo against armoured troops, monsters or single characters. Even in a cannon-heavy meta, a model like this can sit in the phoenix guard and keep a 3++ up the whole time. That's a risk, but it's quite likely to stop players from rolling cannonballs down my 5 ranks of helm-lance (3x5) while stopping the ball at the same time. Keep one of your reaver units close (wise if you're playing defensively and saving them as a chaff unit), and this character will still get a 4+ LOS save whilst benefiting from the archmage's high magic.

Of course, dual-princes + BSB + high magic all together in a bus will be gnarly as hell in combat, especially against other buses thanks to the BSB's new sword. The problem there will be spending the whole game stuck infront of chaff units - here the missile spam of high magic, and the archers + bolt throwers, will remain important support for the cavalry. That's one of the reasons I'm looking at Book of Hoeth instead of the Scroll of Shielding, and putting the Ring on the level 2 - casting more high spells, and ensuring the bus always gets a missile, are going to be even more important where you're attempting to gain board control for a more powerful bus.

Also Book of Hoeth helps force through arcane unforging. That spell almost certainly got a lot more important!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:46 am 
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I was wondering if you might go back to the Book Seredain. Scroll of Shielding is helpful but the Book should give you an edge against most phases out there. Being a traditionalist, I've had to choose between Life and Beasts until now but I think I'm getting in Lord-level casters of both now, which really broadens the threat-range of the spells.

I was wondering about the Archers. Part of their use was as a stop-gap Steadfast block as I understand it? Which is obviously much harder with your new list. I think you have to be a lone character to benefit from the 4+ LoS but with the 4+ Ward that would be enough.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:38 pm 
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Ok, I'll bite:

Quote:
Just noticed your post. The ogre blade is a good all-purpose weapon, but it's not a combat character-killer. Well, it is eventually, but 1+ characters can hold up against Str 6 pretty well, and T7 monsters won't care too much. I think the Star Lance + Potion has better utility for monster/character assassination. If I kept the ogre blade, I feel the BSB would still be its natural place for killing softer (non-lord) targets or the weaker heroes.


Correct. Do you need another combat killer though? In my opinion, your main weakness is grinding, not combat power. Besides, Star Lance BSB allows the Ogre Blade wielder to sport significantly better defensive equipment without sacrificing much in terms of combat power. If anything, this build with Star Lance on the BSB sacrifices very little character killing power while increasing grinding power a lot.

Quote:
The Other Trickster's Shard is ostensibly a no-brainer item against a character-heavy meta, but in a unit toting high magic ward saves (like the helms or phoenix guard), it doesn't make enough sense.


While I see your point, I believe that you will struggle too much without it. You can always make way to where you're needed.

Quote:
the Banner will continue to do nothing against great weapon lords, mundane-weapon spam-heroes, most war machines, combat buses (core knight buses, gutsars, monstrous cavalry, big 'uns). I'd be spending 176-ish points on a character who couldn't fight. It seems to me that the sword of anti-heroes has potentially much more game-changing ability than this banner where, as in the case of my army, I'll be picking up ward saves from Shield of Saphery, including an easy 3++ on the Star Lance lord.


Great Weapon Lords? In my experience, this is almost exclusively fielded by WoC, with the odd Orc Warboss / VC Lord of course. Mundane-weapon spam-heroes is pretty much solely DE, WMs are largely magical (Dwarfs, DoC, TK, WoC, CD) and you get the added bonus against shooting that is magical, any spell and, most importantly, basically every super-tooled fighting lord in the game. The BSB comes down to 172 with the Lance, 178 with Dragon Armour, and he can most certainly fight, depending on your target. As I have run this build extensively I know its limitations. The question is what you perceive your marginally better protected BSB to be able to fight that this one cannot. SoAH is situational, at best, as the only real busses you'll encounter are HE and DE I believe. The former will downright murder you since you don't have the banner and he will, the latter can engage at will or simply spread out instead. With fastcav, DE hold the mobility advantage.

Quote:
Archers. If we're looking at a cannon-heavy meta, then 30" shots with a buffing ability from Hand of Glory become more important. Short of attacking war machines directly or getting within 18" for soul quench, long range shots remain our best weapon against them. Dropping archers from 23 to 15 strikes me as an unfortunate necessity to include the extra lord character, not as something to be welcomed. Of course, a unit of 15 will always serve in the anti-chaff war - of more imprortance during those instances where my two princes are running in the same unit.


Cannons are deployed at the far end of the table, usually in cover. Your Archers have to move into a very dangerous spot to be able to threaten them. It's very marginal, not to mention how much smaller Helms will hurt you given your ~1000 point character investment bunkered inside. Incidentally, these need more bodies the most against cannon armies, doubly so if the BOTWD is not present as suddenly banishment (empire), organ guns (dwarfs), lore of nurgle and tzeentch (doc, woc) followed by artillery will quickly see you without LoS.

To conclude then, I would like to propose a few lists I perceive as typical meta-dominant at the moment:
- Dark Elves with Dual Dreadlord (one with cloak on peg, one with S7 TOTS on horse), L4 Life, multiple Pegmasters, warlocks, darkriders and max reapers. He can literally move wherever he wants except for your bus' threat arc and Life means your Life is super difficult. If you rush him, he swarms around you and kills everything apart from your bus.
- Warriors with Dual-DP, Stubborn 3++, Third Eye Lord, Chariots, Chimera. Same as above
- Warriors with Double-DP: Tzeentch + Slaanesh, double Hellcannon.
- Dwarfs. Double cannons, double organs, multiple copters, dual blocks. How do you get points here?
- High Elves with Star Dragon + Lifetrain + Frostheart. Runs straight at your bus.
- Empire with 3 cannons, 2 stanks, light council + L4 Life.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:28 am 
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SA, Curu,

I wrote a text wall so I'm going to resort to good old subtitles.

Re-opening the Book

As I mentioned I've umm'd and aaah'd over it a bit but, since high magic offers you the benefits of better defence as well as offence in one single spell, the Book makes good sense. I also can see individual spells - unforging in particular - being of enormous important in a meta which will surely encourage multiple character lists, or else massive lords with ward saves and/or serious magic weapons. In the round, my one level 4 archmage and level 2 mage may soon look like something of a budget phase in this new game, but 7 spells rolling with +5 and +3 to cast, a scroll and a free re-roll is very impressive for the points spent.

Banner of the World Dragon – Yay or Nay?

Now for the point we always come back to when we discuss cavalry units. The Banner of the World Dragon would really sort out my defence and better-than replace the scroll of shielding, but for me it has three problems:

First: the BSB has a lance and 2+ save. He's neither well protected nor very hitty in multiple rounds and, as such, is not much use against non-magical units. The first problem can at least be solved by putting the archmage in the bus with Book of Hoeth, but this is too static a build for my tastes in an all-comers environment (see below), or where I want to allow the archmage to concentrate more on being able to choose targets for his spells (much easier in infantry). In any case, Str4 attacks aren't going to bring any value the turn after a charge. This build would work better with a beasts Level 4 in the army. I'm not taking one of those, so it isn't for me.

So now onto the second problem with the Banner: it too is situational. I need to worry about magic weapons, damage spells and miscasts. Against everything else it does nothing. In this sense it's no difference from the sword of anti-heroes (albeit the latter allows a better defensive build on the BSB against non-magical attacks). So I make a calculation, based upon my other choices. My magic lore makes a difference to this calculation, because I can load ward saves onto my characters, heal them and drain power dice from my opponent (or make up for my own dispel dice being stretched with convocation, drain magic and dispel re-rolls from the Book). Most critically, I have unforging with, again, re-rolls from the Book. My magic set-up and item choices therefore pick up some of the defensive slack without provoking the wrath of comp systems which, in the UK, regularly penalize players who take the Book, Scroll and Banner simultaneously.

Third. I am confused, Curu, as to whether or not you think taking a large cavalry bus is a viable choice or not in an all-comers environment. You suggest that such a unit will never see serious action against a dark elf shooty-avoidance list, yet I think you're also suggesting making the unit larger (at the expense of the archers), and putting BotWD on the BSB (which would fix him permanently to the bus). There seems to be a contradiction of logic here.

As it happens I am not a fan of placing all my characters in the same unit against all lists and, since the new characters cap arrived, I have put my mind to thinking of all the weaknesses in my list which I might use my new characters to solve. Inevitably, I conclude that it is not always best to put them all in the one silver helms unit, so I choose their items accordingly. This is where the Banner really shows its limitations, from my point of view: it doesn't have a role to play in any unit other than the silver helms, so this is where my BSB must deploy if he is to bring value. Since I've taken 7/8 levels of high magic, I can afford to try and extract more utility from this expensive character and, therefore, a wider variety of deployments depending on the opposition.

There's one more consideration for me. Every opponent I play (apart from my regulars) looks at the silver helms and, if the BSB is deployed within, assumes I have the Banner on him. I therefore usually get a turn or two before they twig and, therefore, I accrue some of the flag's benefits anyway.


The new meta – problems and solutions

None of this is to say that I don't value the BSB as a unit I can use to hard-counter enemy units with which my list has problems - in particular those problems which are likely to get starker if enemy armies utilize their increased character allowance.

It's too early for me to tell where the meta is going, but I think it's fair to say that mundane-weapon characters will inevitably be a part of it, since they are right now and are surely likely to be more so now that people can spend more points on them. Chaos characters wield great weapons and unkillable builds. Lizardman scar-veterans wield great weapons and spam 1+ saves, and ward saves. Massed dark elf fastcav/peg heroes (in my experience) wield lances (and sometimes repeater handbows), not magic weapons. Orc characters take defensive items and great weapons. Ogre characters often do the same.

In the round, I suspect we'll see a mixture of solo cowboy characters (as people play now), multi-character units (same), and one or two more of the most powerful combat lords in many other armies. Against MSU heroes, I can spread my own characters out (as I always do against shooty elves), and prevent them from swarming weak points in my army whilst chaffing up an inflated cavalry bus. The new star lance prince is an excellent antidote to these sorts of units.

Then there are the big multi-character units I'm most worried about grinding against. Chiefly I mean gutstars, but I also regularly see lizardman cold one buses (though these guys often go cowboy too), and/or temple-guard bunkers loaded with horrid combat filth. These have always been able to deliver a solid face-beat to my bus in a head-on fight. And now these units can have an extra lord in them. On top of these I've obviously seen a bunch of other buses: high elf, dark elf, empire. Against these, the sword of anti-heroes is a cheap hard counter. I've seen it used before, and expect to see more of it now. Added to our ASF it can be a very potent weapon indeed against the toughest units, for few points (of course, grinding against these sorts of units is also something the new prince can help with).

Then we have the character-on-character combats and, here, I need to worry about the lords that can kill my prince(s) in a challenge, before starting to chew into the bus or my other units. So I was chatting to my mate Dom today about this and we started talking about flying units. He played a game against three daemon princes. Three! These would, I think, be a problem for my current list. Swap one out for the unkillable disc lord and it's maybe worse. Dark elf peg characters are also an excellent choice and likely to become more popular. Curu you mentioned double dreadlords – these are going to be a real pain since I'll never catch them with a swollen cavalry unit. I can't chaff them up, so I'll have to shoot and magic them, but these resources will also be engaged winning the shooting war (obviously killing archers won't get the dreadlolords enough points, so they may need to come after the bus anyway). Big ridden monsters can now be taken alongside level 4s, so players have more incentives to take them. I expect to see dragons. I've even seen a few carpet-riding oldbloods running around before the latest changes. These sorts of units, in addition to the usual suspects (chimeras, phoenixes etc), are something that my shooting and magic can work against, but they can also be the sort of lords (especially if other flying units are supporting them), that can overwhelm my cavalry characters in challenges or else gang up on the bus and squash it over time.

So I don't know where the meta is going, but I figure that, if I see multiple flying lords and monsters, I might have problems (at least I can dance around ground-based death stars). Experience has taught me that trying to pin down massed flying monsters with my ground-based units - without exposing the helm bus to overwhelming combo-charges - is a tricky thing (see my next batrep); and it's likely to get trickier. I think I might need to look for a hard counter to these more than I need a hard counter to magical damage (4 bolt throwers can be stretched, and arcane unforging is one spell vs the shield-spam spells which are... all of them). With some magical assistance, the princes can beat enemy lords in combat, or grind units out in the silver helms, or deploy separately and use their armour penetration to kill monstrous cavalry. Without some added protection, however, monster-lords could be a different story.

So, for now, let's waste no more time arguing about the sword of anti-heroes, and start arguing about the featherfoe torc, boom!


Fear of Flying – 2500 point High Elves

Seredain - Prince - Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Steed - 285
Lecalion - High Archmage - Talisman of Preservation, Book of Hoeth - 320
Galahad - Prince - Star Lance, Armour of Destiny, Dragonbane Gem, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Shield, Barded Steed - 266

Caradath - BSB – Featherfoe Torc, Charmed Shield, Golden Crown, Great Weapon, Dragon Armour, Barded Steed - 174
Thalias - High Mage - Dispel Scroll, Ring of Khaine's Fury, Elven Steed - 180

12 Silver Helms - Full Command, Shields - 306
21 Archers – Full Command - 240
5 Reavers - 80

20 Phoenix Guard - Keeper, Standard, Razor Standard - 365

4 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 280

2496 points.

Army Formation

As discussed, there's nothing about these cavalry characters that requires them all to go in the one unit all the time. Ordinarily, I'd be happy for the BSB to deploy in the phoenix guard – there he can easily keep the leadership bubble over the whole army and benefit from the archmage's Book of Hoeth to buff his defence. The two princes will lead the silver helms against enemy buses.

Secondly, if there are more than one nasty flying lords about, or if there's one flying lord and a couple of chimeras, the BSB goes in the silver helms so my prince(s) can handle the pain. Depending on the opposition I can go full bus or deploy the BSB and general together in the helms, while the star lance prince runs solo or hangs back in the phoenix guard or archers to leap out against anything trying to reach my archmage or war machines.

Thirdly, against MSU characters or shooty avoidance lists, my princes go in separate units and the BSB sits with the phoenix guard, draws on the ward save and parks himself next to the archmage to deter (or kill) character assassins. With a great weapon, Book of Hoeth ward buff and charmed shield/golden crown double, he's a pretty solid combat character.

The torc is definitely a situational item but, since I'm fielding a relatively shooty list restricted to ground movement, doing something about flyer-heavy lists strikes me as filling a capability gap which End Times lists may be able to exploit.


Archers

In recent pages, we've covered the archers plenty of times already in great detail, so I'll merely (re)summarize my opinion of them. They slay elves and lightly-armoured units of all stripes, they snipe cannons and they kill chaff. They are a stubborn block that cannot be gobbled by solo flyers in merely a round of combat. They can occupy buildings and then perform all of the above with better-than-usual line of sight. Having opponents smart enough to deploy cannons in hard cover (but not organ guns, or hellblasters, or tall stone throwers, or bolt throwers, or any other clutch of war machines in a list with many of them and therefore a shortfall in hiding places), makes no difference to this calculation. You might similarly say that good players will always deploy their war machines behind their lines in such a way that reavers could never reach them (indeed, this is one big reason I like eagles).

Regardless, hand of glory makes archers a very good unit. On average, it's +2 to hit every turn. Cannons don't have armour and are very vulnerable to being swamped by these hits, even if the cover issue means you're hitting 4s instead of 2s (of course you could roll +3 for Hand). Needless to say, waywatchers, dark riders and warlocks don't like the archers either.

Since my first ET draft, above, I've mourned the loss of this unit to the smaller unit which, albeit it has utility, is off less influence. So, I think I'm going to live with just the one unit of reavers for now, and continue to enjoy the benefits of massed missiles. I'll need to husband the reavers carefully and, in effect, choose one role for them in each game.

My first game, next week, is against wood elves. I'll report back.

Cheers,

S

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Last edited by Seredain on Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:41 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:53 am 
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interesting post.
I guess the proof will be in the playing!
have you any tournys lined up before xmass?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:43 am 
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Thanks Sparky. I think I'm on the reserve list for the next Cardiff 2.5 tourney, but I need to go on the paid reserve. Best get that sorted!

I'm not actually sure it'll use this latest change, however. I'll rely on my clubmates to come up with filth and then see how I go against it until the tournament scene adapts.

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A couple of tweaks to the list before my first game, even. Swapping the old dragon helm for the enchanted shield on Seredain was a no-brainer. Now, I have enough points for the ironcurse icon, which is huge.

Then, having 4 points left to spend was annoying me, so I swapped the BSB's great weapon for a halberd (ASF is good on WS6, but also in the phoenix guard he'll get access to the AP banner, so his general performance in that unit is rather good). 6 points left, so I put a lion cloak on the star lance prince - now he's got a 1+ armour save against shooting when he runs solo.

Seredain - Prince - Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon, Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Steed - 285
Caradath - Prince - Star Lance, Armour of Destiny, Dragonbane Gem, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Lion Cloak, Shield, Barded Steed - 272
Lecalion - Archmage - Level 4, High Magic, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation - 320

Galahad - BSB – Featherfoe Torc, Charmed Shield, Golden Crown, Halberd, Dragon Armour, Barded Steed - 172
Thalias - Mage - Level 2, High Magic, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Khaine's Fury, Elven Steed - 180

12 Silver Helms - Full Command, Shields - 306
21 Archers – Full Command - 240
5 Reavers - 80

20 Phoenix Guard - Keeper, Standard, Razor Standard - 365

4 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 280

2500 points

And now, before I get sucked into the End Times warp, I have two more battle reports to post. First off, fittingly, a monster-mash chaos list...

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Game 4 - Warriors of Chaos

This list was, even more so than the last chaos army, a litany of monstrous death. It had:

Galrauch
BSB – Daemonic Mount, Great Weapon, Unkillable build
Level 2 Disc Sorcerer (Tzeentch)

Slaanesh Chariot
Slaanesh Chariot
Slaanesh Chariot
5 Hounds
5 Hounds
5 Marauder Horse

Chimera – Flaming Breath, Regeneration
Chimera – Flaming Breath, Regeneration

Shaggoth
Shaggoth

Five thunderstomps, four breath weapons and three sets of impact hits. If all this hit me at once, it’d suck. If it didn’t I reckoned I’d win.

Spells

The sorcerer rolled Treason and… something else, and I took Arcane Unforging, Walk Between Worlds, Hand of Glory & Soul Quench on Lecalion (the archmage), and Apotheosis & Soul Quench on Thalias (the bus mage). Pew pew.

The Plan

The big deal of this deployment was when I chose to place my repeaters. Out-deploying this Chaos list was impossible: partly because most of it could fly and partly because it had plenty more drops – a prominent theme of my experiences with the new book (which has showed an increasing prejudice toward large units and multiple characters to get the most from our unique abilities (fight in ranks, Shield of Saphery, high strength ASF via magic weapons). However, I could still dictate the Chaos player’s deployment, or at least influence it, by throwing my war machines down early and then daring him to respond. That response would tell me a huge amount. An army like this couldn’t feed itself to me piecemeal – it’d have to rush me with all the monsters to try and win, or chicken out entirely and play for the draw, and the placement of those monsters should reveal which my opponent might be aiming for. The psychology of the bolt throwers’ placement was even more important. I’d allowed my opponent to check their range before deploying most of his army. Why should he risk anything by placing any of his monsters in range?

So, my first few drops included the repeaters up on the hill – except for one machine which deployed on the far east side of the board to have a close-range shot on anything trying to avoid my main battery (and, in addition, give a flying monster something else to do than join a main attack on my lines).

After that I went ahead and placed my blocks around the hill, with dragon princes covering the ground below and to the west (my left) of a small building opposite me. The helms, deployed opposite the building, the archers just right and the phoenix guard just right again covering the right flank – any flyers looking to move in around the right to eat my archers or repeaters, or flank my helms, would enter the guards’ territory. For shooting purposes much of the board was nice and open. A large marsh sat in the middle of the table – precluding a deployment by the helms on my right wing – and a large wood sat near the opposite east corner.

I’d expected my opponent to go balls-to-the-wall and deploy opposite my army, behind the building as far as possible, and rush me. But he didn’t – he deployed his chariots and chaff in the centre, his sorcerer behind the building and all of his monsters, plus BSB, further east (my right) and out of range of my main battery. Since the building was small, I guess he saw no need to expose a couple of his monsters to magic and missile fire if I won the first turn. I was thrilled, however. The monsters were starting the game far away from me, making a Turn 2 monster-rush impossible. When they did come forward, then they’d be in range. All of a sudden, it felt like I had the initiative after all. The chariots, for one, were targets for my unthreatened shooting base.

The problem from my point of view was how, exactly, I was going to get a lot of points safely – if my knights and phoenix guard marched out by themselves against all those monsters, they’d lose the protection of my shooting and, obviously, would invite a united charge from 4 monsters into one unit. If I hung back, though, I might take the chaff and chariots, but I wouldn’t get as many points as I wanted.

I decided to split the difference and push for a limited offense a la the British Army’s assault during 1918’s Hundred Days: I would lay down a withering fire with my artillery against whatever was in range, take a big bite of ground in the process and hold it against the enemy’s counter-attack. Provoking that counter-attack was the trick – for that I’d have to go ahead on points in the early game. I was banking on my opponent playing to win: if I went into the lead on points, hopefully he’d have enough of an incentive to try and take the win off me. If I could draw in and then beat back that attempt, there lay the big points.


The game

The first phase of the plan worked perfectly. A hail of bolts and augmented arrows sang out of the high elf ranks and in moments removed all of the enemy chaff units: only one lone hound left alive and now yowling for escape. My blocks and dragon princes moved up into the space, creating a diagonal axis facing north east (knights left, archers, phoenix guard right). My opponent’s flyers may have been tempted to leap forward and swing along the elven backline toward my shooting base, but in the first couple of turns this didn’t seem a good idea. Firstly, I had plenty of time, since the monsters were pretty far away, to redress my line. Secondly, on my Turn 1 the east-flank bolt thrower had thudded a single bolt straight into the dragon’s chest, for 3 wounds, and my opponent was now extremely concerned to kill this machine, and ideally more, before advancing his monsters into short range. The heavily warded disc sorcerer was perfectly designed for the job, but just after he rushed out to attack from behind the NW building, his ward save was stolen by the archmage Lecalion and he was skewered by a bolt thrower. More bolts thudded into a chariot, wounding it once. Each volley that followed was unspectacular – the winds were high – but the cumulative effect of bolts, glorified arrows and magic missiles slowly told. The fading chariots inched back until finally, to save themselves from an incessant creeping barrage, they tried to charge out of trouble. The dragon princes retreated from one, so the charges were directed against the archers and silver helms, both advancing beyond the central marsh. Both assaults failed. One chariot rolled straight into the marsh and sunk like a stone. The other, already on its last wound, perished under a hail of accurate arrows.

I now had 3 chariots, 3 chaff units and a sorcerer’s worth of points, and my opponent had nothing except my eastern bolt thrower (eaten by a winged monster). He had to come in and win if he wanted to maintain his table position and, finally, it looked like he had his chance. As the archers and knights had inched forward in the centre-west, the phoenix guard had moved out a little to the east to allow Lecalion to hurl incessant bolts of unforging at Galrauch (so far, my one successful cast had failed to wound, so the dragon was still on 3). Partly I had hoped to tempt my opponent out by doing just this, but the consequences of doing so were quickly startling: Galrauch and both chimeras (acting as missile shields) plonked themselves in front of the phoenix guard for an easy charge next turn. Both shaggoths, led on by the chaos standard bearer, moved up in support as far as they could, skirting around the eastern side of the marsh and still a good distance away from the silver helms.

I was tempted to stand off for another turn and shoot, but taking a charge from so many monsters at once was a bad idea, particularly if my shooting flopped. What’s more, the phoenix guard were never going to get an opportunity like this again. Hailed by a great battle-cry from voices unknown, they charged the nearest chimera. The moment had obviously come: sparked by the enormous commotion erupting on his right flank, Seredain ordered the Caledorians to swing around from the north, quickly wheeled his silver helms and led them a hard gallop to the east. Soon even the swift steeds of the elves were hard-pushed but, predicting this, the archmage Lecalion sprung open a gateway to hidden paths and drew the knights skimming over the southern edge of the marsh. In a flash the high elf army was reunited: anything that came into the infantry’s front would be met by charging knights in the flank – so long as the elves could remain steadfast. Still working hard, the bolt throwers and archers, the latter now keeping their distance, chipped away at the nearest shaggoth and did a couple of wounds before it could commit to combat.

Lecalion led the phoenix guard (once again toting a 3++), surging against the chimera before them. They hacked 3 wounds off of it, shouldered aside its attacks magnificently and pushed it back. The beast escaped, just, but the guard still had enough momentum to barrel straight into the flank of the second chimera, only narrowly missing Galrauch himself. Any temptation to feel triumph was quickly smothered, however, by what followed. Galrauch immediately smashed down into their right flank and a shaggoth into their front. The enraged chimera bellowed and dragged all its heads, grinning, to bear on its attackers. Their gods now willing them to victory, the chaos exalted and second shaggoth charged the silver helms. The fleeing chimera rallied and, assuming a successful reform by its mate, looked set to re-join the battle next turn – bad news indeed. Combat was already desperate – the mailed heart of the elf army beset on two fronts by the vast monstrosities of Chaos. Galrauch and the chimera spewed a toxic torrent of flame over the phoenix guard. All three monsters hurled their great bodies into the fight, massive limbs swinging so hard that, surely, these frail Ulthuanites would simply shatter. And yet, somehow, the chosen of Asuryan clung on. With holy strength they swung their halberds and cut and stabbed and dragged monstrous limbs aside. The sea of writhing flames about them melted into gold-white fire that roared seamlessly around their cloaks. Many, a full rank, fell under the terrible onslaught but steadfastly they closed ranks, pushed back, fought on. Searing battle songs rose with the flames to challenge the laughter of the chaos gods. To the west, thus inspired, Seredain and Caradath rode their knights hard into the other shaggoth and cut it down. The chaos exalted slew a noble elf champion but had no time to cheer – the gods’ attention was elsewhere and he barely held his ground. Lusting for immortality he called out to the elf prince and raised his sword.

Even as Seredain rode to meet the challenge a great eagle, hitherto unseen, dived in from the north to assail the exalted. Then a great shout from the same direction hailed the dragon princes of Caledor. They thundered out of the mists, lowered lances blazing with white flame, and crashed headlong into the chimera which, even now, was raised high to smash down onto the phoenix guard. Arcing over their heads, a cloud of bolts and arrows fell into the free chimera, which groaned under their weight and collapsed, lifeless. The exhausted phoenix guard were barely aware of what was happening until the hulking monster before them burst into flame and fell screaming to the ground. Dragon knights surged through the gap and the guard, now confident of their destiny, hacked at their enormous foes with renewed vigour. The shaggoth struggled on but was wounded almost unto death (holding on a Ld roll of 3), and Galrauch fled in terror. There was no laughter in the sky now, only the roaring music of elven ancestors. Defeat was unmistakeable - the chaos exalted was overwhelmed and contemptuously slain. Chaos Turn 6, and the last shaggoth was finally brought down by the triumphant phoenix guard. Even as the beast’s breath left its body, the cacophony of holy war suddenly ceased. Galrauch skulked off in the silence, into the dark. The field belonged to the high elves. Suddenly, it was mortal voices that were raised in triumph.

Victory!

20-0


Game 5 - Kairos Daemons

A string of thumping wins saw me on Table 5 for the last game. And, surprise surprise, I was facing one of at least 2 Kairos lists in the top 10. To memory there was:

Kairos
Epidemus
Blue Scribes (?)

23(ish) Plaguebearers FC
20(ish) Plaguebearers FC
10 Horrors
10 Horrors

5 Furies
5 Furies
3 Beasts
1 Beast
1 Beast

4 Plague Drones
4 Plague Drones

Spells

Kairos took all the mega damage spells. I chose Fiery Convocation, Soul Quench, Walk Between Worlds & Hand of Glory on Lecalion, and Apotheosis & Soul Quench on Thalias.

The Plan

I’d only played Kairos once before and then I’d wasted my time greedily trying to chase him down with my bus and leaving much of the rest of my army to twist in the wind, leaderless. This time I wouldn’t make the same mistake and, happily, I had other useful targets than just Evil Big Bird. I was particularly pleased to see Epidemus. This guy is pure filth (appropriately), but his chief weakness is that he has to sit in a slow moving, expensive core infantry unit, and these were all points I could go after. Even better, they also provided me with an alpha target for Fiery Convocation – this would be absolutely massive if it meant Kairos had to throw power dice to dispel my magic rather than direct them into his own spells. My aim, therefore, was to fire bolts at Kairos whenever he was in range and, when he was not, direct all my missile fire and magic into the plaguebearers. My combat units would close in on the plaguebearers too, and force my opponent to try and stop them, hopefully surrendering me points in the process.

My deployment, in the end, was tight around a tower and hill clustered close to each other in the south-east of my deployment zone, but with just enough central deployments, including the archers and dragon princes, that my opponent committed expensive combat drops to the centre of the board (plaguebearers) and the far western flank (4 drones). In fact the weight of my push would come from the east side of the tower, and my archers quickly redeployed by swift-reforming and then magically advancing, courtesy of the archmage, to the left flank of the dragon princes, with the tower immediately to the east. The elves’ shooting and magic missiles then began lashing out at the plaguebearers (the enemy’s furies were in cover), with underwhelming-but-steady results. My magic phases began, and stayed, of lower-than average size, but this held opportunities as well as limitations. My small spells were cheap and benefited from Lileath’s blessing. Even in the smaller phases, Lecalion consistently had enough power to cast Fiery Convocation and did so with metronomic reliability. Tzeentch’s herald, in turn, consistently failed to dispel it so up went the flames, wreathing Epidemus and his body guard turn after turn, and Kairos spending turn after turn wasting his own power dissipating them, almost as if the Vortex itself were draining him of energy. As the plaguebearers slowly ground forward, my phoenix guard and silver helms were pushed toward the enemy left flank through a halo of chaff units. Furies and single beasts, poor targets for my shooting when they were held in cover, leapt out to make a nuisance of themselves and then quickly be killed. At least advancing early with my knights projected enough of a threat against the plaguebearers that I was collecting these points and, in the meantime, my magic and shooting was slowly doing its work on the blocks themselves – the easier target. Alas, progress could have been quicker if all the eagle claws had been brought to bear on the same targets, but any machine which had a realistic shot on Kairos took it – although I couldn’t wound him. With growing frustration the phoenix guard became tempted by a headlong advance towards the back-tracking unit of plague drones opposite, but restrained themselves to cover the right flank of the silver helms and keep spell-targets open for the archmage. Oh so slowly but surely the elves were pinning the daemon army back and grinding it down.

At least that was the story on the right flank. The left flank, held by the archers and dragon princes, was under threat. The unit of 3 beasts of Nurgle advanced ahead of the plaguebearers but, with that massed support so close behind, a charge against them by the dragon princes would have been suicidal. Since the Caledorians carried the flaming banner I had no better unit to fight the beasts, however, so they simply held the ground in front of the tower as the archers, fearing the steady encroachment of more plague drones from the west, beat a steady retreat to the south side. When the beasts’ charge came the dragon princes fought them to a standstill and even won combat, at first, but one by one they were pulled from their horses and consumed. With the enemy’s path finally open, the archers evacuated the ground in front of the bolt throwers and garrisoned the tower. Eventually the beasts were destroyed, but they’d done real damage. With my flank guard thus distracted, a pack of furies finally made it into my backline and started attacking my war machines. Counter-fire from my own missiles utterly failed to bring the winged daemons down in time and two machines paid the price before they were finally laid low.

Elsewhere, my opponent had finally run out of chaff daemons and the silver helms charged on into the heart of the enemy army, smashing into a full block of plaguebearers. This was not Epidemus’ unit, which was advancing in the wake of the beasts under a hail of missiles, but the other regiment, sent to save the Tallyman from the steel wall of death that now, emphatically, ran the daemons over. In two rounds of combat all the nurglites were dead – Kairos retreated to the far side of the board and the nearby plague drones abandoned their face-off with the phoenix guard to avoid the knights. Epidemus himself was more tenacious. Clearly seeing that he would shortly be surrounded, he and his shrinking bodyguard headed pell-mell for the tower. A volley of arrows met them but soon they were in and tearing archers to pieces. An astonishing number of hits and wounds saw the elven garrison’s numbers collapse, almost to breaking point. Only a handful of elves remained after two rounds of combat and into Turn 6. More volleys and magical missiles took their own toll, however, and by Turn 6 my knights were closing in. To hold them off my opponent had to discard more units – the last beast from the unit of 3, and a unit of plague drones, anticipating a slaughter of Asuryan’s chosen, looked surprised as they were hacked apart. Still the Tallyman came on: just himself, on a single wound, and two rank and file models remaining. I had a magic and shooting phase to pull them down, both soul quenches at the ready, victory in my grasp. The winds gave me a double 1. Tenaciously the archmage channelled an extra power dice, and successfully threw soul quench into Epidemus’ unit. No wounds. My remaining arrows did nothing. Again the Tallyman charged and, again, went to town on the archers. They all died.

10-10.

Debrief

So close! I was 2-4 wounds off a massive victory and had a whole shooting and magic phase to get them... no dice. If I'd known that was going to happen, I should've hopped the archers out of the building and so saved their lives. But I went for the glory kill and narrowly missed it.

Still, a satisfying game against a very nasty daemon list. By far the most influential spell of the game was fiery convocation, indeed it's a problem for me just how important is was, since it stopped Kairos from going nuts every magic phase. Had my opponent left Epidemus and his large plaguebearer units at home, I would have had no decent targets for this spell and my defence would have been tested. Still, by the end of the game I still had my two scrolls in hand so, I hope, I had plenty of slack in my defence. Next time, I think I need to trust my combat units more. With asf, magic weapons and/or decent ward saves, as well good magic missile back up, I wonder if I could have played much more aggressively with the phoenix guard and helms, rather than deploy defensively and then cagily move out. Of course, then I'd be in a position where plague drones would be moving in one two sides, with the plaguebearer blocks to the front: I haven't done dice tests on this but off the bat it wouldn't seem like a smart idea. So, in the end, I was happy to emerge from combat with Kairos daemons with a strategy that, right up until the final magic phase, looked as if it'd pay off nicely. A fun game, and a lot of lessons learned.


Thanks for reading.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:26 am 
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I think you can count yourself a little unlucky there Seredain. Kairos is usually a nightmare in the magic phase but that's a lot of points that can't fight. Compared to a Lord of Change who's like a dragon with magic items. This makes a direct approach more attractive, as you're not facing big beast blocks for example. Daemon MSU can be powerful in combat. But as you point out, Epidemius begets Plaguebearers and I'm not sure how well they mesh with that as a build.

Featherfoe Torc. Interesting. I see you're in for the team event at Firestorm Mr S.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:14 am 
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My first Kairos game was against MSU horrors and it was a real pain, so long as it got enough power dice. I'd be happy riding around killing stuff and chucking all my bolts at Kairos, but if there's decent cover on the board he's really tough to get hold of. Weathering that kind of magic for 6 turns is not fun. I've kinda had this guy in the back of my mind since I dropped the scroll of shielding (albeit the Book still feels like the right choice).

I'm really liking the possibilities with the torc. Still plenty of room to get a decent defensive build on the BSB (plus halberd/great weapon). Put him in the phoenix guard (if you want to go double prince in the bus), and he gets the benefit of the archmage's casts and the units AP flag. And against powerful flyers (which I've seen a lot of recently and now expect to see more often), he's a massive help to the prince(s) in a challenge, or in any other unit to make sure you beat things like chimeras.

Firestorm! Yeah going with the Angel boys. Less drinking this time - can't merge tactics and a whole lotta booze - but it looks really fun. I know for a fact, however, that building a 2.2K list I'm happy with is going to be a pain in the arse.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:08 am 
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I've got your lads down as dark horses for the win here Seredain. I've played Matt Hinton. He's good and the rest of you are at least as good. I can see building a 2200 list could be a pain. But pity the Warriors player facing you with 2000pts and 10% VP's. Warriors are that good, really?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:53 am 
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I agree I think warriors and dark elves got shafted a bit. Donal (Taylor) is thinking about taking them anyway though - the way he sees it, team events are as much about not losing as they are aboit winning, so he's happy to have 200 points less to give away. That's optimism for you!

Yeah Matt's good. Builds tight lists - his Kroak/skinkbomb list causes problems. Maybe less so for us: ward saves bounce the bomb and all our missiles clear the skinks - but still the main unit is almost untouchable in neutral conditions, 1v1. Taking big points of it is very tough - you have to combo it from 2 sides.

I'm playing him tomorrow actually and, as luck would have it, he's trying out a lizardman flying circus. I don't think he knows yet that I have the featherfoe torc...

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:07 pm 
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But those three armies give away an extra 10% VP's under the comp. How easy is it to keep points with Warriors? I feel Dark Elves are probably the strongest army in the game. Plus they can simply run away and shoot if they want to. So High Elves, Lizardmen, Warriors and O&G? Empire?

Ripperdactyls?

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Oooooh that's what you meant by the 10%! I'm not sure he knows that... Best email him quick.

Looks like rippers, yes. Plus a carpet oldblood, tiq taq to in a biggish unit of terradons (for ambush rock-dropping), egg of quango, skink skirmishers. Probably Tetto as well - I have literally never played a game against Hinton lizards that didn't include Tetto.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:28 pm 
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Tell Donal to get the Ogres out! (Edit: He's taking Dark Elves to London's Calling. Eurgh!) So who gets the dodgy match-ups and who gets protected to cash in on their good ones?

Six of the nine Lizardman armies at the Pillage had Tetto. He made Throgg look so 2013.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:13 pm 
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I think shooty ogres have a good chance but our one concern is not to have too many armies exposed to Death magic. If he enjoyes dark elves next weekend then it may be them, yep. We'll see. Good question on the matchups point, but too soon to tell yet as we're in the list-drafting phase. I've volunteered to take on dark elves, at least.

Looks like no Tetto in tomorrow's game after all - Hinton's practicing non-SC lists.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:17 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
Oooooh that's what you meant by the 10%! I'm not sure he knows that... Best email him quick.

Looks like rippers, yes. Plus a carpet oldblood, tiq taq to in a biggish unit of terradons (for ambush rock-dropping), egg of quango, skink skirmishers. Probably Tetto as well - I have literally never played a game against Hinton lizards that didn't include Tetto.


Did they house rule this? As is now he doesn't have a rule allowing him to join terradons.

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