Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:54 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1695 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55 ... 57  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:03 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
So, TL;DR you are moving towards less units and having them better equipped. In a nutshell, you, myself and Malossar have all evolved our lists into what ends up being PG + Bus + support, with different configurations. I don`t think this is a coincidence as I just don`t see neither SM nor WL being worth it in this style of play, which is inherently aggressive though the RBTs might suggest otherwise.

What I question - especially given your elaboration on hard tournament opponents - is the inclusion of Archers and Dragon Princes. To me it seems you`ve invested north of 400 points, nearly half of them special, into S3 troops of which a few have flaming attacks. The inherent problem with this is that whenever you run into something tough that isn`t relying on regen, you`re spending an aweful lot of points doing very little. For the same points you could have a bigger bus, 3 units of Reavers, another Noble (allowing BSB to take BOTWD), Fencer`s Blades on the AM and a few more PG. True, regen is a problem but I don`t think 200 points worth of S3 is a good counter, especially considering your entire army has ASF, meaning other units won`t benefit from the flaming effect.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:49 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12759
Location: Otherworld
Seredain, I've noticed you deploying your Helms in a single rank more than once. Has this been your standard deployment if facing war machines?

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:03 am 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Thanks for the comments guys.

SpellArcher wrote:
Seredain, I've noticed you deploying your Helms in a single rank more than once. Has this been your standard deployment if facing war machines?

SpellArcher,

This was indeed designed to stopping cannons from ripping 2 knights down instead of 1. This was a product, really, of using the smaller bodyguard unit without much in the way of shooting protection. Since switching the noble to the High mage (plus ironcurse icon), and taking a few more knights, I've gained enough protection against shooty lists that now I'm typically less concerned with reforming the bus than I am with keeping the 3 ranks and using the movement saved from the reform to push this unit over ground and into enemy units (keeping the 3 ranks pushes on steadfast but also keeps the mage safe).

Curu Olannon wrote:
So, TL;DR you are moving towards less units and having them better equipped. In a nutshell, you, myself and Malossar have all evolved our lists into what ends up being PG + Bus + support, with different configurations. I don`t think this is a coincidence as I just don`t see neither SM nor WL being worth it in this style of play, which is inherently aggressive though the RBTs might suggest otherwise.

What I question - especially given your elaboration on hard tournament opponents - is the inclusion of Archers and Dragon Princes.


Curu,

PG + Bus + support is a good way to describe this army. Where are armies differ is the method of support we've chosen, and this is probably the best explanation for the archers and dragon princes in my list. My army has the bus and the heavy infantry, but if it has a chance to win the shooting war then it goes for that. Archers are an important contribution to this effort: a block of 23 puts wounds on skinks, other elves and (importantly) cannons: board control units and long-range threats to my bus. With Hand of Glory on them (archers are the best reason for taking this spell), they become very dangerous indeed to these units. Adding them onto 4 bolt throwers and 6 levels of High magic therefore has the potential to combine into a very effective collection of long-ranged attacks (you can move the units carrying magic missiles) which can challenge or overturn the odds against shooty/harrassment armies, or grind down large units, high-toughness-low-armour units in other kinds of list. Even knights fail armour saves if you roll enough hits (and Hand of Glory on 23 shots gives you the chance to get lucky here). The effect is cumulative but impressive. Against any army the archers will always, at least, clear out chaff very effectively (including reavers), gaining free movement for my melee units or else removing serious threats (Warlocks etc). Killing enemy shooting units preserves, of course, my own chaff.

It makes sense Curu, since you seem to see your list as more inherently aggressive than I do mine, that extra reavers strike you as a good idea. But with archers + High Magic my list keeps its options open: you can shoot people up or just concentrate on winning the chaff war, even without the extra reaver units, by shooting enemy board-control units to death.

Mal & Curu,

To a certain extent the dragon princes are an important part of this too: 8-12 attacks is much better for clearing out board-control or MSU units than 3 attacks from a noble, in particular since the dragon princes can't be knocked out by a single cannonball. The truth is that a single noble in a one-bus can only rarely operate independently - mostly he's useless in the board-control war. All-comers, dragon princes work much better as anti-missile and anti-chaff hunter-killers. Together with the archers, then, dragon princes help you win the shooting war in a way that a bigger bus can't. The result is that I'm typically only forced to attack the shootiest armies, and here dragon princes can eat those cannons or charge into chaff. Against heavy full-attack armies (chariots, multi-monster Chaos), they themselves can act as another missile weapon (throw them out at chaff units, hold, then flee the counter-charge safely behind your leadership bubble), or as a direct counter to war machine hunters. Combining hitting power with complete independence from the bus is their key quality over the extra noble. At all times, meanwhile, they retain the option to swing round and join a main combat or finish off shot-up armoured units, chariots etc. Frost phoenixes can do much of this too but (ignoring the extra points), they don't give you the option to stand the unit off against cannon armies.

As you say the flaming banner is part of it too. Niether my shooting phase nor my other combat units benefit, but having access to 12 ASF flaming attacks is still always very good value against regenerating units (6 dragon princes break or kill chimeras and inflict valuable extra wounds against trolls). And, for 10 points, the unit causes (and is immune to) fear against other knights and beasts.

I guess the final point for me is that I really don't feel I need the Banner of the World Dragon in the silver helm bus. If I spend 175-190 points on a Banner BSB, I get the ward save and one attack from the second rank (a 2+ save is dangerously fragile). I suppose the BSB re-roll itself stays safer for longer, but I don't think it worth the points if I already have the Scroll of Shielding, Arcance Unforging and Shield of Saphery to help against both spells and items. Great against daemons, but against most stuff it feels like an expensive luxury. Spending the points on winning the war for board control strikes me as a more reliable investment.

Thanks,

Seredain

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:54 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Most tournaments are won somewhere around the 80bp mark. To achieve this, you need an average of 15 battle points per game, and a bit of luck (I`ve never seen a tournament winner that wasn`t lucky at some point). While RBTs most certainly help our armies, they are by themselves not nearly enough to win a ranged battle, unless the opponent is severely lacking ranged threats. Some 20-ish Archers without the Withering are not going to change that fact. The problem is that even if you win, it won`t be a 15+ victory unless your opponent pushes. Against weak players you can often force a push by intimidiation alone, but against the stronger players (typically game 4 + 5 where getting 15bp+ becomes a lot harder) this will typically not be the case: smart players will hide rather than auto-lose 12-8 or worse, it`s not uncommon for me to see Dwarfs going 10-10 against supposedly weak opponents because they deploy in the opposite corner. The way I see it your army is tailored to fight more defensively than it really is capable of: we are not Dark Elves. In tough matchups, your Archers and Dragon Princes are essentially contributing next to zero, as it`s all a lot more S3 that can`t push, can`t redirect and can`t cast magic. I appreciate the combined arms approach, but when you face the really tough lists do you really feel that the Archers and Dragon Princes are worth it? I don`t know the English meta too well, but I`d guess variants of Elves, Warriors and Ogres are common.

If you take the last 2 games in the last 2-3 tournaments, how much did the Archers and DP contribute, relative to a ~450 point investment?

As for Hand of Glory, I would think the primary target should be PG as increasing their movement gives them a lot more flexibility. I can appreciate that BS7 Archers are suddenly accomplishing a lot (essentially they are trueflight Archers at this point and we all know how deadly they are), but they still suffer from the inherent flaws of being S3, M5 no save. You mention Dark Elves as being a good opponent for your Archers. I wonder what these Dark Elf lists look like. Short of going all-out shooting with Sisters and Shadow Magic / Coven of Light, I would not be able to outshoot the Dark Elf lists I usually face. They inevitably sport more shooting than we do, at a higher quality, with double soulblight support that is just terrifying. Whether it`s a block of Darkshards, 15 Dark Riders running wild or 25 Shades killing a unit per turn, Dark Elf shooting is super dangerous to us.

BOTWD - yes 2+ on the BSB is bad, but 1+ really isn`t that much better on a 2W model with T3. There are multiple ways to mitigate this: Crown of Command with 3-wide Silver Helms, Frostheart Phoenix to reduce enemy damage, another character to put the BSB into the second rank. In return you get one of the hands down best items in the game, which doubles up as extremely good given the current meta where Death is all over the place and magic missiles chipping away at your Knights. Last tournament I had a BOTWD-bus and an MR(2) PG unit and my magic defense was so much better than I`m used to, death actually became trivial to defend against.

I guess the TL;DR version from my point of view is that you`re aiming for a 3-part approach with the infantry, cavalry and shooting. I just don`t think there are enough points to make this work against strong lists and as such, I think you need to sacrifice 1 part to boost the other two.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:14 am 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Agh! Interesting post Curu but I have to run off to a field in Oxfordshire until Sunday night. I'll reply properly then.

In the meantime, it's worth bearing in mind that this is not 400+ points that I can re-alocate in one chunk. I don't have 400 points to spend, I have separate chunks of 240 core points and 194 non-core points.

Crown of Command doesn't need a noble - that can go on the level 2 if I want it - what's on the table is whether the (1) Banner Noble or (2) Frost phoenix (less 1 eagle) is a more useful addition to my army than 6 flaming dragon princes.

23 archers vs 3 units of spear reavers is the other calculation (plus whatever points I choose to mine out of both eagles).

Back soon (with a hangover),

Seredain.

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:23 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Crown of Command doesn`t need a Noble indeed! I used to run it on my L4, which is a very good place as you don`t want him in b2b anyways, depending on your configuration of course.

I`m perfectly aware of the core being locked, but I feel 2 units of Reavers is bare minimum while the remaining can either go into bumping the bus or a third unit, as such as I see the points as effectively "free" anyways. As for the DP, you don`t have to release that much more to afford e.g. a Frostheart Phoenix (which I felt I was really lacking when playing my last tournament with a similar list), more characters, more PG... The possibilities are many and varied! Looking forward to hearing a proper reply. In particular I`m wondering how your hard tournament matches affect your point of view: I do believe that the choice of Archers/Reavers and DP/Frostheart are largely irrelevant against weaker players because the list is solid enough to smash home a big victory regardless. The question then is how best to spend the points to achieve an advantageous position against a strong player with a solid list. I know you probably don`t have the time to do proper BRs of all these games, but I assume you remember enough to give a quick rundown and therefore serve as a good basis for discussing troop choices.

Enjoy your weekend ;)

EDIT: For reference, here is my newest list development bearing last tournament`s lessons in mind -
Quote:
Prince on Barded Steed, Dawnstone, Giant Blade, Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm, Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 276
High Archmage Level 4, Fencer`s Blades, Power Stone, Talisman of Preservation = 320
Beasts Mage, Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Trinket = 125
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Banner of the World Dragon = 172
Characters = 893

18 Silver Helms, Full Command & Shields = 444
2x5 Reavers = 160
Core = 604

20 Phoenix Guard, Full Command & Razor Standard = 375
3 RBT = 210
Frostheart = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Special & rare = 875

Army Total = 2372


As you can see, we are converging (well currently I`m playing the SD, but you get my point) which I think is a natural development. I`ve justified the BOTWD-BSB in the first rank because frankly, the Silver Helms aren`t that important any longer. They deliver the Prince and preserve points. Additionally they`re really good vs GW Elves actually. The point is, if a grind is happening the Frosty is there, or the PG, or both. I`m hoping the AM is defensive enough to survive frontline duty. The Mage is there solely to provide MR. It`s a shame that the PG Champ can`t take magic armour: the spellshield would allow me to mount the mage instead, putting him in a safer spot. Taking the scroll on the L4 doesn`t leave space for both WS10 and 4++, unfortunately, otherwise the merwyrm-mr noble might`ve made a comeback ;) I just really believe the AM needs WS10 to perform this role.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:15 am 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Cheers Curu! See you Monday.

It might make sense to get the mini reports for Milton Keynes out of the way while we're having this discussion - it was 2.5K and used the new 3-rank High mage bus and extra repeater, so it makes a good additional basis for analyzing the army's support elements.

I've done the first 3 games already so we could look at those and then deal with the archers / dragon princes as part of the debrief.

I'll decide on Monday - depends on how much writing I can do when my eyes are falling out of my head.

Happy weekend people!

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:26 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12759
Location: Otherworld
At the top level, I don't feel there is much difference in strength between the players you are facing in Norway Curu and those Seredain is facing in England. For example, in his first two games at Midlands recently. But the UK scene as a whole is larger, so the 200-player SCGT would be mostly average tournament players with some very strong and some clearly weak. My last tournament was unusual in that I faced only average players. Now these guys are not fools, they know how to build lists that make sense for the meta and they rarely make big mistakes. But I get the impression that the Norwegian scene is tighter and you are facing a higher proportion of top players than we are Curu. Albeit Seredain is running into more of these than I am.

Then there is the difference in lists. Any two countries will see this but especially where comps differ and even more where LoS is given or not vs Dwellers. Other things like TLoS also matter. So the differences in lists are partly due to this difference in environment. Again, I get the impression the Norwegian players are more aware of each other's armies and playstyles. The bigger UK scene will see more players turning up with unusual lists and approaches.

So we can only build with a feeling for what is going to work vs what we come up against. As an example I had a gut feeling before my last event that I really needed a second, smaller unit of Wild Riders to deal with the hard, fast stuff I was likely to face and take some pressure off my bigger unit. I wasn't able to field this and the Treekin I took instead just didn't work. I also felt I needed Flaming shooting, couldn't fit it in and nearly got found out vs double Chimaeras in my last game.

Mal's paramaters of course, will be different again.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:41 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
The scene I play in is very tough, with most of the ETC players participating in major tournaments. Since the active player pool is relatively small as well, roughly half of the participants at an average tournament here are very skilled. At Indian Summer I had to go down to almost number 20 (out of 36!) before I saw a player I wouldn`t consider skilled. By comparison, at SM where there were a little over 100 I only met 1-2 skilled opponents (hence why I did so well despite the list I wasn`t happy with).

While average players aren`t fools, failing to understand advanced concepts is something a High Elf force is inherently good at capitalizing on. A good example here is my T5 post-combat reform with the bus in this battle which took my opponent by complete surprise and made me go from a small victory to a huge one (I was over 1000-point ahead despite losing all WLs + Loremaster T6 to an LD9 break test): viewtopic.php?f=76&t=45081&p=877700#p877700 Another example is how this VC player failed to realize the consequences of his T4 push here: viewtopic.php?f=76&t=45081&p=877621#p877621 He saved a 20-0 by blocking my bus out from his bunker late-game, otherwise it would`ve been a complete rout. This is why I would focus way more on what you can do with your list to increase your chances to get the hard points in the last games. Again, it will be easier to make a proper analysis here once Seredain`s provided some rough reports of his hard games.

As for difference in lists, indeed TLoS and comp make a difference, but at its core I think it`s largely about the same: WoC hit hard, DE and WE play avoidance-shooty well, DoC are impossible to kill etc. A lot of people from my club went to SCGT last year (with the VC player earning the nickname "Hobby Wrecker" for his Hexwraith-list) and they usually frequent the UK once or twice a year. Therefore we know the English scene rather well and, while I haven`t been there myself (was looking to go to a GT in September but the comp really threw me off) yet those who have claim that the differences really aren`t that big. With the inevitable influence of the ETC tournament on top players from all countries we gravitate towards the same concepts - even despite of comp: it`s just that uncomped you can do it a lot more (e.g. DE with 30 Warlocks, 30 Dark riders, 30 Shades and mounted characters no end). I also have the feeling that the most extreme lists rarely make the top because they have inherent weaknesses: Whereas a Shadestar can dominate certain builds it is completely useless against others. As such, a player looking to reach the top with a balanced list is, in my opinion, equally likely to face a list he can smash as he is to face a one-dimensional list he has no chance against.

Yes, there are differences, but no, I don`t think they are *that* big. As a concrete example I cannot see how the UK scene suddenly makes BOTWD a poor investment, nor how DP can suddenly be worth it outside of a High Archmage bus (whose viability I still don`t understand for the life of me, despite several strong showings both at the ETC last year and in individual tournaments here in Scandinavia).

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:26 am
Posts: 218
Location: ACT
Curu,

Why do you say that Seredain’s list can be outshot by dark elves? I look at and see a game between it and a shooty DE army turning into a slugging match with neither side having an obvious advantage. Dark Elf RxBs can put out a lot more shots, but RxBs suffer from having to get close in order to be effective, which brings them into range for Soul Quench or charges. Seredain’s archers are going to have a big effect on this matchup if he has Hand of Glory, because until they take substantial losses, they’ll be able to decimate a unit of Warlocks or Dark Riders a turn, which combined with the 4 RBTs, Dual Soul Quench and the threat of Walk Between Worlds, Arcane Unforging or Fiery Convocation shouldn't make it easy for DE.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:54 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Because for everything Seredain throws out, the Dark Elves have something better. Let`s bring back my favourite DE list to hate:

Quote:
Dreadlord, Dark steed, heavy armour, seadragon cloak, shield, Giant blade, Dawnstone, The
other tricksters shard - 277
Supreme Sorceress, lvl 4, Death, Ring of hotek, Dispel scroll - 295
Master, Pegasus, BSB, heavy armour, seadragon cloak, lance, Charmed shield, Talisman of
preservation - 211
Master, Pegasus, seadragon cloak, shield, lance, Armour of destiny - 184
Master, Pegasus, heavy armour, seadragon cloak, shield, lance, Cloak of twilight - 188
5 Dark Riders, X-bows, shields - 100
10 Dark Riders, X-bows, shields - 200
25 Darkshards, FC, Banner of eternal flame - 340
5 Harpies - 75
Bolt thrower - 70
Bolt thrower - 70
Bolt thrower - 70
Bolt thrower - 70
5Warlocks - 125
5Warlocks - 125
Totalt: 2400


Note that this is comped. Uncomped it could be way worse.

So the Dark Elves have fewer drops and will thus get +1 to first turn. Seredain has 23 Archers, 4 Repeaters and High Magic, potentially 2x Soul Quench. Dark Elves have 40 Rxbs, 4 Repeaters, 2x Doombolt and potentially 3x Soulblight, likely DnD as well. Furthermore the Dark Elf army is more mobile and can withstand shooting better: whereas Masters are only threatened by RBTs (and arguably Arcane Unforging), even Silver Helms feel the pain of basic RXBs. Part of this comes from the superior mobility of the Dark Elves (that 10-man DR unit is way harder to deal with than it looks, considering it usually acts as a launching pad for the Dreadlord as well which can single-handedly beat the Phoenix Guard), part of it from the magical superiority: without the BOTWD you *have* to stop snipes, even if you don`t and get lucky you can`t stop 2 casts of soulblight every turn. Doombolt is super scary for pretty much every unit and if you push, you will be countered at each and every turn. Being able to push against a list like this was one of my main goals behind creating the list I took to Indian Summer. Basically, as I said previously, I feel Seredain is trying to make 3 elements work whereas he only has points for 2. I decided to skip the shooting because this is the playstyle that appeals to me (i.e. aggressively pushing for points), but I believe you can also drop the PG or the bus element and focus more on the remaining parts.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:30 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12759
Location: Otherworld
It's interesting that you cite the visit of Norwegian players to SCGT 2013 Curu because that event featured unlimited LoS vs Dwellers, FT and Dreaded 13th. Since then there has been a definite shift towards low or no comp (though there is still a lot of variety, hence Swedish comp events, one or two ETC etc.). SCGT 2014 with it's choosing of scenarios, no LoS, 100 VP win was quite a different animal. This being of course the largest and most prestigious event in the country with 200ish players, around 50 of whom I would hazard were very strong indeed. ETC lists are different to some extent (SloS etc.).

I take your point about general trends (Daemons going from double Beast blocks to MSU in a lot of places, DE and WE playing avoidance generally (though even here I feel there is more wiggle room than a lot of players think)). Seredain's input will be very interesting because he's played to my knowledge at least four big tournaments in the UK recently, under varying comps. So he might have a good insight into how much these factors change things around.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:53 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Yeah I think we had like 10 players or so there last year. This year the Swedish Masters took priority. SCGT this year indeed looked to be pretty wacky, which kind of puts it apart from the discussion I feel we`re having: comp is one thing, scenarios is something completely different.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:31 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12759
Location: Otherworld
I've just played a tournament with modified scenarios and despite being a Battle Line man in general, actually enjoyed them Curu. Do your events use them at all?

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:51 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Mostly, no. I`m attending a tournament in September that has scenarios though. My main problem with them is how the mess with an army. Take the Star Dragon for example. It -cannot- win the Watchtower against a good opponent because there simply are no units to hold the tower with. Likewise, a Chaos Dwarf gunline will very likely love Battle for the Pass, but for a skilled general this might not be needed and when you play Blood and Glory you simply don`t have the space needed to shoot enough enemies before they`re upon you. On paper it would seem that these scenarios combine leave CD in a "neutral" position, but the fact of the matter is that it`s a pretty bad state for them. This leads to the game being unnecessarily random, where the opponent you draw or a random dice you roll can affect the entire game beyond repair. It`s kind of the same reason why I don`t like 6-dicing spells: there`s just no skill involved and the game resembles a coin toss more and more closely. With a decent comp system, most matchups have *some* degree of playability if you`ve written your army list smart.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:30 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12759
Location: Otherworld
On the whole I agree. The ones I've just played though gave up to six bonus game points on top of the usual 20 up for grabs and I feel this worked well. So VP's remained a priority but you had to keep one eye on the scenario. Thankfully BFTP was not included!

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:34 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
I have yet to see scenarios that promote tactical play without seriously derailing certain army types. I`m not saying it can`t be done (in 40k I think it works pretty well for example), just that I have yet to see it in fantasy :)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:52 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Well, Wilderness Festival was awesome but safe to say I wasn't fully alive on Monday, and not really awake on Tuesday, and the rest of the week was sort of “uuuugh”. But now I’m fine and back to being a responsible person.

Crown of Agreement

I've read your interesting posts (both) concerning army types, scenarios and my meta's impact on choice of list. First, I’ll start Curu with where I agree with you. Chiefly it’s the Crown of Command. The problem with High Elf cav-buses is that they want to be able to take on the hardest enemy units (because only our characters can take these out unless you’re relying more on Nuke magic), but to protect them from shooting you have to run them with T3 2+ save cavalry that dies to these very same units. Ranks and standards help a lot here. Where they don't help is if you’re coming up against a large number of attacks wounding you on 2s or 3s and cutting into your armour saves. Normally my characters keep me in it and win on the grind, but if they fluff, or if I fluff my saves and lose enough helms, then you can quickly end up taking alarmingly dicey break tests to not lose the game.

Up to now (by which I mean for 7 games or so), my mage's kit has allowed him to come in and tank for the unit (for a turn at least) when the champ goes down, so he can survive for a least a round of combat. It's a workable solution (I've lost the mage to attacks only once so far), but obviously not perfect. If I put the Crown of Command onto the mage instead of defensive kit, however, I could field the unit 4 wide if I wanted to, keep the mage safe and have the unit grind out the hard combats even when my dice betray me (or I take a steam tank to the flank). Sounds good to me.

I mine out a dragon prince for this swap, which allows me the Potion of Toughness to solid up the archmage. 5 dragon princes don't pack the same kind of punch as 6, but for their chief duties – chaff/MSU cavalry clearance, machine hunting, counter or flank-charges against big regen units, hunter-killer operations against small regeners – 5 with the flaming banner gives you great utility for 165 points. And, in general terms, it gets you some combat oomph (especially against non-stompable units) without the extra expense of the (excellent) frost phoenix.

Archers in a Bus List

I think there are two false assumptions that some fans of reaver-heavy core bring to their analysis of archers' worth. The first is that the damage output from archers isn't worth paying for and the second, related to the first, is that reavers will automatically win you more board control. Neither of these is essentially true. At long range (without magic assistance) 21 archers will, on average, score 5.25 wounds on T3 models. This takes out/forces panic tests on chaff units, or else puts these units under pressure to deploy and/or stay back (out of range or in cover), vacating control of the space your archers are guarding. Archers are perfectly equipped to clear, and hold ground against, the light MSU units that we need to neutralize in order to win control of the board.

This contribution is particularly important against an army which can field both shooting and MSU units in numbers. In these contests, having those extra shots is important even in a non-gunline list like mine, part of a tapestry of strengths which High Elves bring to the shooting war.

First, ward saves. This example DE list has its doombolts in Warlocks (Death magic I'm not so worried about). However, the carriers of the High Elf magic missiles (Silver Helms and Phoenix Guard with High Magic) are much more resilient than the 10 wounds of warlocks carrying the Dark Elf doombolts. For short range missiles, this is a big deal, because to get in range the carrier unit will have to expose itself to counter-fire from the magic and missiles of the opposing army.

The positioning of these units – how much fire they have to expose themselves to, will be partly determined by who has to move into range and, in so doing, move out infront of the longer-range units like repeaters and archers, reapers and darkshards. After damage resistance, range is the next key ability of our armies. Deploying out of 24” range is easy, and doing so forces the enemy shooting units to advance in order to overturn our inherent ranged advantage. This brings them close enough that they become targets for our shorter-ranged weapons as well. With better range, we have less reason to move out and run into all those close-range shots. Crucially, archers are a key advantage in the all-important bolt thrower contest which determines which army has to shift first: with 30” range, they can reliably target reapers in a way that darkshards cannot. The short point is that we can focus our shooting at range much better, and earlier, than the dark elves can (martial prowess also contributing). It's not just about the number of shots, it's what you can actually do with them that counts.

Our magic phase, however, straight up puts out more then theirs. Soul Quench (which you double-up on in this match-up) is the backbone spell in this, but it goes alongside a greater number of useful 'ranged war' spells than the dark elves can use here. Archers are an important part of this greater spell redundancy because they give you an aggressive use for Hand of Glory, which is added to 2 x soul quench and Arcane Unforging for the enemy characters plus Fiery Convocation for the darkshard bunker. We have more spells capable of turning this ranged war than the other side can manage. We also get +1 to cast these spells. Combined with the cheap casting values offered by High Magic, we can throw more hits for fewer dice, and we get the free shooting resistance into the bargain.

Tethlis has said this many times but it's worth reminding oursleves: heavy cavalry take out light and shooting units and so provides us with another direct weapon in the shooting war (I often see the dragon princes as a moving missile weapon), which are harder to kill than the non-shooting units fielded by the dark elves. They're great for soaking up damage from our more fragile shooting units by making a threat of themselves (like 5 dragon princes going into a flaming unit of darkshards). Further the helm bus, in particular, needs to be chaffed up. Here we come to the chief weakness of fast cavalry when looking at the shooting war. People like to look at reavers and dark riders and just add their shots to the total when looking at an army's ranged power. However, any fast cavalry which is busy chaffing up a major combat unit will not simultaneously be able to target its shots at enemy ranged units and so contribute to the shooting war. You can do lots with fast cavalry, but it can't do everything at once. The value of light cavalry in a straight shoot-out is, therefore, limited.

Finally we can compare the resilience of our lord's buses when looking at who has to advance first and lose the advantage of a settled deployment. Again this is a High Elf win: the dreadlord's bus is fragile - 10 4+ dark riders and a reserve unit of 5 is absolutely minimal protection from Elf shooting. These are fantastic units, but they're not tough. Frankly, having run my prince in a block of 10 helms for some time, I don't think it's good enough. Also, the DE level 4's bodyguard is simultaneously stationary and fragile (unlike phoenix guard). Killing the level 4 and his darkshard bodyguard is big points, and they're not fast enough to escape a push against them. Add this to the other considerations we've discussed. Any threat against the darkshards brings the dark elf chaff units (including the dark riders with their valuable crossbows) into play against my combat units, and not against my missile base. Meanwhile, the greater number of long range shots pumped out by the High Elf army (including soul quench from units deployed further forward), has a better shot of cleaning the enemy reapers out before the dark elves can do the same to my own repeaters.

In summary, looking at who wins the ranged war is not just about the number of shots each army can pump out - it's about where on the board those shots can be placed, concentrated, and whether they can be preserved into the late game. In all these things, if not in the number of shots, the High Elves have the advantage. Even so, having more shots is a good thing in this matchup and archers are our cheapest way of getting them. In a matchup where shooting matters, it's not clear to me how losing the archers for (almost) 3 units of bow reavers is a helpful swap. You gain some brilliant targets for dark elf shooting – 5+ save cavalry units with 24” range, but you lose the impact of the long range shots (real and psychological), you lose the benefit of Hand of Glory (and with it the extra spell redundancy), and you lose a unit that can actually win or hold combats against these dark elf MSU units. I've said before that, even against armour-heavy warriors, the archers provide an essential service by helping me clean up all the enemy chaff units within the first couple of turns. Against elf armies, they're even better.

Time for some cottage pie and Milton Keynes reports..

Meta

Oh, a short point on my meta. I've mentioned armour-spam warriors already, but outside of tournaments the top players I regularly play use Ogres (important chaff 6+/5+ saves on maneaters and ironguts), lizardmen (skink spam), empire (cannons, archer chaff, halberdiers, MSU knights), Orcs & Goblins (everything!). The number of elf armies, both in my local meta and across the UK, is also on the up. Archers play an important part against all of these armies, and against elves in particular. As you know I try and build an army to operate independently from the meta (the flaming banner is a case in point since Throggstars seem to be heavily comped in the UK), but the meta shift toward more elf armies happens to favour archers quite strongly. Reavers and reapers make wonderful targets for longbows!

Cheers,

Seredain

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Last edited by Seredain on Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:15 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:10 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12759
Location: Otherworld
It's a fair point on the usefulness of shots. A guy on Asrai had a list with 24 Hagbane, HoD, 2x Strangleroots, 8 x Sisters. But that's not as good as 40 30" shots from turn 1. Throgg was all over the place at my last tournament but thelist I played had a pair of Chimaerae (?) instead.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:30 am
Posts: 263
Hi Seredain.

I'm running a very similar list, however I have a frostheart instead of your 5 dragon princes and only 20 archers. So far I have had some very good experiences with running the high mage in with the silver helms. If you have dragon amour on both you BSB and your prince they are both looking at a solid 4-5+ ward save every turn. Also the extra ward saves combined with the iron curse Icon goes a long way in keeping your bus alive.
And then it is just great to be able to use Soul Q as much as you like, because you can actually get in range now.

Just some thoughts:).

Cheers.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:57 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Andros,

Thanks for the post. I am indeed running a High mage in the bus with Ironcurse, but only a level 2. Chiefly this is because I haven't got Banner of the World Dragon on the unit and, if I'm taking a Level 4, I like to know I have the option to 6 dice a crucial spell without blowing my knights to pieces. So I put the archmage with phoenix guard (3++ means miscasts are not a real worry - for the unit at least), and the mage with the bus to sneak through 2-dice spells nice and safely. Soul quench is often one of those spells, particularly against chaff-heavy lists and other elves.

Two reasons I don't pack it in and go for full archmage banner bus:

1) I like High Magic, which contains a great number of damage spells. Some games you want to rush your knights in there and you don't want to be restricted from doing so by your spell selection. A base for the archmage in phoenix guard gives you more choice and a cool 3++ elite block.

2) The Banner BSB doesn't fight and can't really take damage. He's a burden to the unit against mundane damage which, daemons (and maybe wood elves) aside, is much more common than magical damage.

3) For spell defence I get by on Dispel Scroll and Scroll of Shielding (3++ with Shield of Saphery).

4) Most opponents assume the bus has the Banner anyway and act accordingly.

5) Comp. I don't care so much about this but it saves me some tourney points grief that I don't carry this flag.

6) Arcane Unforging gives me a cure for Runefangs.

Cheers!
S

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:30 am
Posts: 263
Thanks for your answer Seredain.

I was under the impression that you dropped the lvl. 2 mage. What was your reasoning behind giving both your casters high magic? For me I can't decide what lore to go with on my lvl. 2. I'm very inclined to go with high, and then put him with the phoenix guard for the 3++, however heavens is also a very good alternative in my mind.

Quote:
The Banner BSB doesn't fight and can't really take damage. He's a burden to the unit against mundane damage which, daemons (and maybe wood elves) aside, is much more common than magical damage.


Couldn't agree more. Also I usually play in comped tournaments, where it is very costly to bring the banner or the book of hoeth, so I try to make lists without them. I give my lvl. 4 arcmage the obsidian lodestone (MR 3), so combined with high magic, my bus is pretty well equipped against most damage spells.
However the only problem I have with this setup is, as you also point out, miscasts. However in the end, I feel the gains exceeds the risk and I can use high magic much more aggressively then compared to having the caster in a bunker.

As you, I also ended up thinking that Phoenix guard is the right infantry unit to bring in this setup. I used to run white lions, because then I don't need to worry about armour, but without the banner of the world dragon and magic to protect them, I found them too fragile.
What experiences do you have with the phoenix guard in this list? And what matchups are tough for them?

Hope to see some more battle reps in the future btw:).


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:51 pm
Posts: 563
Sadly pretty much accepting the helm(stacked with characters) + PG build. Its basically impossible to keep characters alive, and too many of our units bleed points in 20-0 which is what my local area is leaning more and more towards. So after a rash of experiences losing foot characters to random infantry models, I've come up with a similar build for a 2k event.

Interested to know if you would take High magic to uncomped events based on your experiences?

_________________
I saw Karaz-a-Karak...and then I burned it to the ground.

Baleanoon and House Morhathel march once again for the Glory of Khaine and his chosen King.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:43 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Hello chaps,

Apologies for my lateness. Work stuff (as usual blah blah).

I'll respond on the High Magic point first. In uncomped I'm a big, big fan of this lore, but part of that has to do with the army I use. Matchups-wise my list has the following weaknesses:

1) Relatively low wound count - massed rank armies (skaven, greenskins, halberdier hordes) can grind me out, as can thunderstomps.
2) Massed shooting (in particular war machines and wood elves) - these eat my knights.
3) Mega-lords/items - chaos warriors in particular can field characters against whom my prince is pretty screwed. Some armies (*cough high elves cough*) can field crazy items that run your day).
4) Huge magic phases.

High magic has the solution to all these problems. First, it has the spells of situational awesomeness. Arcane unforging prizes open the defences of enemy characters and kills game-smashing items like the crown of command. Fiery convocation burns massive units or, against super-magicians, threatens lesser units but really earns its keep by killing an enemy magic phase - I've ground out Kairos games basically because my opponent was so busy defending his units that he didn't have the spare dice to nobble me. Drain magic gives your dispel dice less to do, which helps a lot against buff-lists like ogres. Against gunlines, Hand of Glory is a massive enabler - either speeding up your advance, or making your archers accurate enough that they can reliably snipe out cannons. Massed magic missiles (up to three in my latest 2.5K list), clear out shooting units very effectively. Finally, ward-save augmentation helps all of the above. Whether you're worried about shooting or close combat, +1 ward save per spell is just excellent. A prince toting a 1+ rr and 4++ is harder than almost any of the competition (bar the chaos unkillable builds). Silver helms toting the ironcurse icon can have a 4++ vs war machine. So good. 3++ phoenix guard are some of the best infantry in the game.

That's thinking about soft and hard counters. In general, however, high magic is a board control lore (movement, anti-chaff, cowboy character snipe). For me it's massive that the enemy chaff dies and mine lives (I hate downgrading to 2.4K because I keep on dropping that 2nd eagle). Controlling the board means controlling the game unless your opponent can just sit back and shoot you. Even then, he'll have chaff units to stop you barrelling in to him, so killing these units is of huge importance. High magic is fantastic for this kind of work.

I understand that plenty of folk see this as a jack of all trades, master of none lore, or as a damage lore that lacks combat buffs. Without the right list working with it, these are potential problems. With the right list, though, the lore is killer. Take units that make the ward save buff work for them. Hell, even taking all the damage spells is amazing if they allow you to stand off with your warded-up units and chuck missiles. Alongside 4 bolt throwers and a decent block augmented archers, you chuck a hell of a lot of damage. Bus lists like mine ought to fear wood elves - with high magic, I don't.

Oh I almost forgot - since the spells are so cheap (Convocation being the exception), this lore works for you in any kind of phase. That's a great help. For the same reason, you'll also fail casts a lot less often. If you're looking for reliability, high magic is a great choice.

Andros,

You asked about phoenix guard. For me, they're absolutely a game-winning unit but it's vital to see the difference between 3++ and basic 4++ phoenix guard. We all work with averages when we predict the outcome of combats but, in a dice game, we don't often get the exact average result. 4++ saves are awesome but, if you rolled a single dice, you'd never know if you were going to get that 4+ result. It's the sort of randomness that can sometimes turn against you. If you roll a single dice and you're looking for a 3+, you'd say you're likely to get it.

The bottom line is simple - 4++ phoenix guard are great, but 3++ phoenix guard (inevitably with the AP banner) are game-winning. Either they pile on wounds with 21 ASF AP attacks (-2 armour save is a massive boost over -1), or they put on fewer wounds on a tougher opponent but win on combat res because, you guessed it, they have a 3+ ward save. Some bad scenarios (which I've run into a couple of times), are when they get double or triple-teamed by large monsters. Here, you might realistically lose combat. But guess what? They're 8th edition infantry! They're steadfast, baby! Obviously you'll have to come to the rescue at some point, but 3++ buys you a serious amount of time against enemies without ranks.

Finally, the best thing about these troops is that they need very little in the way of support. If you get a good amount of support running, I like the potential of swordmasters (as you know). But rocking the ward save on them takes magic investment (not least the Book) and, to make that investment worth the spam-buffing (as opposed to, say, 5-dicing arcane unforging in a small phase) you're probably better off making the elite infantry bigger (see most Alarielle stars). 21 phoenix guard only need the one spell, so they give your magic phase more options.

The hard counters I've found are as follows:

1) Dwellers. Str 3 sucks against this spell, and no ward saves. And my archmage is in this unit. At least my opponent isn't casting it on my bus but, still, ouch.

2) Banishment. Wounds you on a 3+, at least, and you re-roll ward saves. That's bad.

3) Buffed infantry units that have more ranks. These units are few and far between, but they do exist. Empire halberdiers hitting on 3s (hurricanum) and buffed by any number of Empire spells and priest buffs (including hatred) can be a problem. You might win, but they'll be steadfast and (unless you're opponent is careless, or losing), within the empire leadership bubble. Here is a unit that might grind you out. If your magic phase totally fails and you don't get your ward buff, alarm bells should be ringing.

4) Steam tanks. I hate these things. Railroad the hell out of them.

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:52 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
MILTON KEYNES GT

Report time. And finally! A 2,500 point tourney that I was actually able to attend in the midst of RL nonsense (but couldn't write about for 3 or 4 months because of RL nonsense - ah well). I’ve missed most of the 2.5 action so far this year, so I was looking forward to this, and feeling good about the latest version of my army. As discussed in more detail above, this was:


Prince – Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon – 290
High Archmage – Level 4, Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll – 290

Battle Standard Bearer – Dragon Armour, Barded Steed, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone – 170
High Mage – Level 2, Elven Steed, Golden Crown, Scroll of Shielding, Potion of Toughness – 175

23 Archers – Musician – 270
12 Silver Helms – Full Command, Shields – 306
5 Ellyrian Reavers – 80

21 Phoenix Guard – Full Command, Razor Standard – 390.
6 Dragon Princes – Standard Bearer, Banner of Eternal Flame – 194

4 Repeater Bolt Throwers – 210
1 Great Eagle – 50
1 Great Eagle – 50

Army Total – 2500

Game 1 – Empire – Battleline

A potent Empire list, first off, with lots of threats. 2 steam tanks was the first thing I noticed, but there were also the 4 demigryphs, block of 10-12 knights, luminark, two Captasi and a very big IC knight bus with great weapons and a collection of characters comprising a GW BSB (Cloak of Ulric), Grand Master (Runefang) and Level 4 of Life (scroll n ‘ting).

The board wasn’t too suitable for cavalry lists – a marsh and wood shared the centre ground (right and left respectively), although I did have a couple of pieces of impassable in my deployment zone which I could use as cover from cannonballs. I would always be tempted to blast through a flank and close in on the enemy bus from two sides but, with a tank covering each flank, this would be tricky. So I deployed flexibly and put off a decision until my opponent had done something which might indicate his intentions and provide me with some opportunities to spot a weakness.

On the far left, on a corner hill, sat 2 repeaters, inside them the archers (facing Tank 1), phoenix guard (facing the main bus containing Captasus 1), silver helms, 3rd repeater (well back), dragon princes (just left of a house on my right flank), and then a gap to my 4th repeater – placed out on the rightmost edge to shoot at at exposed flanks or else give the knights opposite something to do other than get in the way of my main units. My helms and dragon princes faced the demigryphss (containing Captasus 2), alongside the dragon princes, and my archers and phoenix guard faced the main bus.

Empire got the first turn and immediately put me under pressure – all the knights came forward, albeit the big bus a little more cautiously, and the tanks trundled forward and pointed at bolt throwers – killing one on my left). My real concern was the demis – I could beat them with the bus but, with their central deployment, it would take a dedicated supply of chaff to hold the bus up while I cleared them out (demis can do enough wounds to helms to force you to grind them out over a couple of turns). This was risky with the two stanks being able to snipe my eagles. There was also a marsh in the way – just about the best way the Empire had (in the absence of Dwellers, which my opponent had failed to roll), of putting wounds on my characters. Much easier to pin the demigryphs instead, and focus my attention on the knight bus, wherein sat most of my opponent’s points.

The plan worked beautifully. Taking a gamble on a 10” charge from the dragon princes into the demis, I made the roll and survived the marsh to hit home. Out came the reavers to rail-road Tank 2, which now couldn’t block a swift change of direction from the helms to bring them within easy reach of the IC bus. An eagle pinned them down, and my phoenix guard, following the direction of the knights, swung left in the beginning of a move to envelope the bus’ flank. Shooting did nothing by way of helpful preparation – I couldn’t kill a single knight with arrow and bolter fire – but magic sealed my tactical advantage, as I generated a +1 ward on the bus (with a +2 Hand of Glory) and successfully, Turn 2 (having burnt the scroll already), sniped Captasus 1 with Arcance Unforging after a Walk Between Worlds on the phoenix guard brought me into range. My left flank bolt throwers skewered Captasus 1 while, on my right, the dragon princes performed superbly – winning combat (the demis held on 7 – damn!), and thereafter holding the demis in place, along with their own Captasus who was stuck in the unit for good measure. My opponent desperately tried to halt my knights with his own magic, but a 3++ from Scroll of Shielding and SoS stopped the luminark, and I was able to dice off his toughness buff on the knights. Time for the coup de grace.

The silver helms charged in. The prince, already in base contact with the Grand Master, issued a challenge and they went at it. I did two wounds, and my opponent made two with his Runefang. I was fine with this, as I had Apotheosis and one more turn with ASF to finish the job and stay safe from the unit’s attacks. The rest of the combat was a disaster: my BSB and a big clutch of lance attacks went into the enemy BSB (to take the points, get rid of him as a fighter and bring the level 4 into the front rank), and only managed one wound. In reply, my 1+ BSB with Luckstone and a 5++ was killed, failing two of the three 4+ armour saves he was forced to make, then the re-roll, then the two ward saves. Damn. My knights took a pounding from the great weapons too, but couldn’t manage a single wound themselves – armour was only working for one side here.

My saving grace was the archmage’s phoenix guard, poised for a flank charge and ready to cut the knights to pieces but, next turn I rolled a 4 when I needed a 5. My prince then failed to score a single wound on the grand master (who only had a 5+, remember), and was killed. My mage tanked attacks like a boss for one round with his Potion of Toughness, but then died the next turn and I lost the whole unit. The demigryphs were always going to clean up the dragon princes eventually and they finally did, both units of Empire cavalry proceeding to swing round and encircle the phoenix guard, who’d been pinned by a long charge from the free stank just before I could railroad it with my 2nd eagle. A selfless rear charge into the IC bus by the archers saved the guard, but the archers themselves were killed very quickly. Everything had turned on the bus-off, and everything had turned out very, very bad.

0 – 20

Debrief

I honestly felt like this was a good plan screwed over by Lady Luck. If you pin your opponent’s army down, charge his bus with yours, kill his magic phase and then have a 5” flank charge with your best infantry waiting ready for next turn, you should win the game. Gagh!

Having said the above, 3-rank knight buses toting Str6 attacks deserve respect. If you can, get rid of that back rank with shooting before you charge – having those supporting attacks gone makes a big difference over multiple rounds of combat.

Game 2 – Dwarfs – Blood & Glory

That was the worst possible start to what was supposed to be a good day. Luckily I was against someone else who’d been smashed, so hopefully I could collect some big points. My opponent’s army was the first Dwarf army I’d played with 8th Ed High Elves. Luckily I’d read the Dwarf book already (being naturally paranoid about Dwarfs), and I didn’t think this army was that bad – two cannons and a grudge thrower, a gyrobomber (archers beware) and two gyrocoptors (ditto). It helped that this was B&G, so my opponent couldn’t camp in a corner. In fact he deployed centrally – massive hammerer block (containing lord, BSB, runesmith) in a wood, flanked loosely by two blocks of 25 longbeards (HW&S), one with a runesmith, and then the gyrocoptors, with the gyrobomber and war machines loitering the in the back. I set up a shooting base around a hill on my centre-right, flanked left by the archers and then the phoenix guard, with the helms further out left with the reavers and both eagles (the latter hidden behind a building) ready to move out fast and smash face. On my far right flank the dragon princes deployed in line, covering the bolt throwers from attack by gyrocoptors and opening an advance around a big block of impassable terrain on the dwarfs’ left flank, to open access to the war machines if the gyrocoptors came forward.

Come forward they did. I’m not sure my opponent knew quite what to do with his choppers. They could just act as chaff, they could try and eat my repeaters and they also had guns, so perhaps unsurprisingly they seemed to suffer from some kind of personality disorder. One tried to rush my bolt throwers but was quickly shot down, while a combination of HoG-accurate shots and magic missiles brought down the gyrobomber, trundling towards my infantry, and a double charge from both eagles killed the final machine, which had been hovering in the flank zone of my helms to try and get some kills (it didn’t). Thus the field was quickly cleared for my knights to advance on both fronts. The silver helms advanced into charge range of the longbeards guarding that flank, and the dragon princes looped around the Dwarfs’ left flank toward their machines, forcing a dithering paralysis on the nearest unit of longbeards who were unsure at first whether they wanted to rush into an advance with the hammerers, who were starting to fall steadily to bolts, arrows and magic missiles, or to guard the left flank and protect the dwarf war machines. The failure of the machines solved this problem in the worst possible way: one cannon sniped out a bolt thrower, but the grudge thrower exploded and, next turn, a cannon followed, leaving only one gun left to face the imminent arrival of all the elven knights.

It was too little too late. On the left, the silver helms charged headlong into the defending longbeards and cut down half the unit. My opponent didn’t have a counter-charge on, so the helms had plenty of time to slay the remaining dwarfs. Instead, the dwarfs just ran off the board and allowed me the reform. My dragon princes then charged around the opposite flank of the dwarf army, exposed by their hurried advance towards my shooting units, and killed the last cannon. I now had all my knights behind enemy lines and still plenty of time to bide. The hammerers had a 5++ against missiles but, over time, 3 bolters, 23 archers and magic missiles ground them down until I was ready to finish them off. The final charge, when it came, wasn’t as grand as I’d hoped – the silver helms rolled hopelessly low and failed it altogether – but the dragon princes and phoenix guard – hitting front and rear – killed all the remaining hammerers in one round and chased down the fleeing Dwarf characters. The last unit of longbeards narrowly avoided capture on Turn 6, but all the other Dwarfs were dead, and I’d lost only my chaff and a bolt thrower. A successful completion of the scenario meant, all told, I’d just won more than 3000 victory points. Boom!

20 – 0

Debrief

Lady Luck obviously felt she owed me here. If a dwarf player only kills one bolt thrower then loses two of his war machines in the first 3 turns, it’s bad times for him.

Encircling enemy armies with a combined force of cavalry and infantry is literally my favourite thing in Warhammer.

4 bolt throwers, 23 archers and two magic missiles is good ranged power – and dwarfs feel it. It’s very good at bringing down gyrocoptors, especially if your archers are hitting on 2s.

On which note, we actually get a magic phase against Dwarfs now. Hooray!


Game 3 – Warriors of Chaos – Capture the Forest

My opponent from Game 5 at SCGT was back with another cool army, led by a lord of Tzeentch on a (massive) chaos dragon, two chimeras with flaming breath and regeneration (dragon models), two or three chariots (for carrying meat for the dragons), a tanky BSB on daemonic steed, a level 2 Tzeentch sorcerer on disc and one unit of 20-25 Nurgle warriors with HW&S, plus an assortment of fast cavalry and warhounds (one and two units of each respectively, the latter being baby dragon models).

Deployment was pretty hairy. The board was not great for line of sight on the right-hand side, so I took the large hill close to my left corner and deployed the repeaters there (three on top, one to the right and on my backline), a little forward so I’d have plenty of room to strike out and retreat later with shielding units. The dragon princes deployed at the foot of the hill with just this in mind. I did this early, meaning to encourage my opponent to deploy his monsters outside bolt thrower range and so create a space around the hill in which I’d have some freedom to operate. But a tower sat opposite my hill gave him other options, and he stacked his monsters behind it. Without any room to manoeuvre on the left flank, my helm bus deployed on the right, with phoenix guard and then archers deployed next left between the knights and the hill. The reavers deployed infront of the helms, opposite the gap between two units of dogs, which obligingly vanguarded forward into charge range. Since my opponent won the vanguard role-off, he perhaps wasn’t to know that I didn’t intend to move the reavers at all for precisely this eventuality.

Thankfully I won the first turn and declared charges with a first wave of cavalry into the forward chaos units, reavers into the dogs outside my right flank and dragon princes into the marauder horse toward the far left – who had to hold or else run off the board. Both enemy units were killed. In the centre, the archers thudded a volley to finish the last unit of dogs, and the bolt throwers killed a chariot. A good start, but the business end of the chaos army now rushed out. The dragon princes fled a charge from the daemonic BSB and escaped safely behind the right-most war machines on the hill behind (within general’s leadership for the panic checks). Then the dragon and two chimeras landed within easy charge distances of the archers and repeaters for next turn. Against my right flank, the warriors marched up just to the left of the wood.

Decision time: it was obvious that I couldn’t stop the monsters from getting into my left flank sooner or later and, although briefly tempted to sit the knights close by for the leadership buffs, but since there was little room to manoeuvre and I risked being hemmed in, I quickly decided to charge the helms out, break the warriors and re-engage from the side or rear. The phoenix guard wheeled left to stay within the leadership bubble as the helms charged into the Nurgle warriors, broke them and reformed facing my left flank. Arcane Unforging snuck trhough on the lord but failed to wound and only pinged the Charmed Shield – not the 4+ ward save this guy obviously had. Shooting was more eventful: my archers couldn’t wound anything but the bolt throwers scored two hits on the dragon, one successful wound on the lord which then multiplied to … 2 wounds and just left him in the saddle in spite of his 4+ ward save. Elsewhere, Apotheosis bubbled up on the helms to give them +1 ward – important as they were just about to take a hit from 2 chariots placed to stop me from completely breaking through on the right. To buy time on the left, I reformed the elven infantry (to face the enemy advancing upon the hill) and backed up – the left-most bolt throwers were still in trouble but now only a long charge could get into the archers, with the phoenix guard covering them from their fight flank.

The chariots charged the helms, killed three knights and then lost one of their number to magic swords. Annoyingly, the last chariot held its ground. The chimeras both came in too, one eating a bolt thrower and the other charging the archers to the front, tearing a great hole in them. The dragonlord was meant to hit the archers too, but he failed and shambled around in the open. To try and save him from magical death, the chaos sorcerer hopped behind my lines and tried to 6-dice Glean Magic the archmage to rid himself of the Arcane Unforging menace. No double 6 came, I popped my scroll and swift retribution followed. Unforging blasted the lord off his dragon, which itself took two bolts to the chest and lost 3 wounds. My last repeater, on ground level at the backline behind the archers, swivelled round and, with the aid of Hand of Glory, darted the sorcerer to death in payment for his temerity.

These were great moments but the fact remained that 3 monsters were about to chew their way through my left flank, the chaos BSB – eagled last turn – was closing in and the warriors had rallied dangerously close to the flank of my helms unit. I therefore chaffed up the warriors with my reavers (who had been waiting nearby to run the warriors off the table if they didn’t rally). The helm bus duly finished off the last chariot and reformed to face the main battle. Here I was coming under real pressure. My shooting underperformed (probably fair) and magic was too weak to do anything more than bump movement on the phoenix guard with Hand of Glory. Chimera 1 forced my dragon princes to flee again, this time along my backline, and then it successfully redirected (on Ld 4 or 5) into another bolt thrower. The dragon, charging in on the flank of the archers, and chimera 2 (front) then stomped all over the place but the archers held their ground like heroes – only 5 models standing. Sensing the approaching crises where they’d have to take on these monsters, the phoenix guard now charged out against the chaos BSB whilst he was still alone: he hoped to pin my infantry down for a flank charge by the beasts, but the elves won on static res with the 3+ ward and killed him as he broke.

Just in time. The monsters finished the archers and charged on into the phoenix guard, but this was in the front and now the helms were riding to the rescue, well within leadership range and having a flank charge on the dragon. The problem was that the unit of warriors behind them had now advanced into the central wood to win the objective. I needed that wood (you got a bonus 800-900 points for it) so, I chose the best of both worlds: the prince charged out alone against the dragon and the silver helms, now led by Caradath, swift-reformed, moved 9” toward the wood and were then catapulted by WBW 20” into it, behind the warriors, to contest the objective. Combat was epic: the phoenix guard (and archmage) shouldered aside the monsters’ attacks with ward saves, taking 2 or 3 wounds off the chimera, and Seredain cut the dragon’s leg off and stabbed it through the face. The chimera broke, never to rally. The last chimera, who couldn’t quite make a charge into the rallied dragon princes on Turn 5, now took a charge from these (flaming) knights and died.

There was now only the small matter of the warriors squatting in the wood and denying me the objective. Finally given a chance to really shine, Thalias the mage hurled a massive soul quench into them, killing several and sending them fleeing in panic – directly away from the helms and so straight out of the wood toward the waiting bolt throwers, which greeted them with a hail of missiles. Only 2 or 3 were left standing. That was Turn 6. I hadn’t finished off the warriors, but I’d killed everything else and seized the objective for another thumping win and over 3000 victory points.

20-0

Debrief

I got some good luck here in killing the chaos lord so quickly – getting those two wounds with my bolt throwers was great. Of course bolt throwers are a serious threat for characters like this but, since you only have 2 turns before they’re in combat, you’ve got to roll those dice when you really need it. Thankfully they worked out for me this time.

Most of my opponents hate Arcane Unforging for a reason – it wrecks game plans and is one of the most potent lord-assassination tools . Often a game-winning spell, and definitely was here.

A crucial move in winning this game was turning down the opportunity to purse the warriors when they were beaten by the helms. Knowing when to turn down pursuit moves is important – you shouldn’t always take the points. An honourable mention here goes to the reavers, who were sat ready while the warriors fled to either push them off the board if they didn’t rally, or block them off if they did.

This was Seredain’s first dragon in 8th Edition. He’s now killed dragons in 4 different editions of Warhammer. Boss points!

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:37 am
Posts: 463
Location: ireland
good to have you back... for good I hope now or at least more frequently!

more reports please! :D

_________________
death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain

do an rpg personality test, im from Ireland and I get...

[CENTER]Image[/CENTER


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:17 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12759
Location: Otherworld
Yep, welcome back bro!

I really miss High Magic. Battle Magic just isn't awesome enough for me. Been toying with the idea of running my High Elves again and the magic is a big part of that. Of course WE's can take it but it's less thematic and Protection Counters, while great, demand a reasonably-protected unit to work. In one of his reports Curu did just that thing of Soul Quenching WE's without actually needing to get his bus into combat.

Once again, green with envy over the PG. Just such a great unit with answers to all sorts of things. Stubborn is excellent but it does kind of waste Steadfast. I do miss the Swordmasters though, would definitely run them myself in a HE list.

The IC Knight GW's (White Wolves?) are interesting but I feel there's a big difference between 1+ and 2+ here. I feel the R+F's job in a bus is to survive and let the characters do the killing. Sounds like your dice malaise stopped you shooting them up Mr S. Would it have been safer to direct as many attacks on knights as possible and not go for the BSB? Or would the dice have shafted you either way? That failed PG charge, I was so reminded of my game vs Nick Tolfree at Ill Blood, exactly the same thing.

Not much to say about the Dwarf game I'm afraid! Sounds like you had the whip hand from the start.

That habit of chaos chariots to hang around is bloody annoying isn't it? Even if they break, if you let them go or fail to catch them they always come back for more. I had a hairy time with no Flaming attacks vs double Chimaeras at the Pillage but got a bit lucky. Did you miss the Sisters at all here sir? Nice charge-out and redeployment move with the cavalry!

A question: did you or did you not spend the three Saturday games at Tribute in a drunken haze after playing the infamous Mr Woods-Conway in round 1?

:)

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:45 am 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Boys!

Thanks a lot. Good to be typing again.

High magic is stupendous awesome. I think you need all the spells to really make it work - you have to spam those casts when you roll big phases otherwise you don't get the benefit from the cheap casting values. But yeah, being able to shoot stuff off whilst simultaneously buffing your units is awesome. Warriors are perhaps one of the harder matchups for the lore, but here you have unforging and the easy ability to remove all their chaff on turn 1 - and then to control the board from thereon in. That doesn't help against chimeras but does against everything else.

I feel a bit bad about it since they're technically an 'all comers' choice, but I don't miss sisters at all. 24" range with no marching and no reforms is really, really inflexible, and any decent targets can make it hard for you to make those shots count. Having to always move means you're hitting on 4s almost all the time too. Bolt throwers just do it better. I think I'd probably miss the flaming more if it mattered as much as it used to. But archers stay steadfast and are a good way of attracting attention, and 3++ phoenix guard and the helms don't care too much about they regen because they can grind too, and better. One bad round and that chimera runs, never to rally, unlike the steadfast or stubborn elves. Chariots are a bit similar in that respect. They're hard to take out, but it's also hard for them to break you unless they've got some backup.

The empire game was sooo frustrating but sometimes that happens. Normally I'd agree SA that the characters are the things to look out for, but these great weapon nights were coming at me with Str 6 and had good backup from life magic. The dice were very, very harsh but the fact remains that, in a sustained combat, the empire knights had a lot more potential than my own silver helms and definitely deserved respect. It was this combat that was the major input in my fielding the Crown of Command lance formation because it's in these sorts of situations that you want to be tanking with your characters. As for swordmasters - I'd go ahead and field them. But they'll need the magical backup to shine and, for me, that means they need to be a large enough unit to make buff-spam a good investment for your magic phase. Do a list! A Level 4 high archmage (book) and a loremaster with World Dragon would be pretty cool...

In answer to your question, SA, HELL YES I spent Tribute drinking entirely because of big woody. I show up, he puts a can of stella in my hand and says "we're going to drink one of these every turn". Cue an awesome amount of fun and without question the worst hangover of my life. I didn't even play game 5 - I got lucky, got handed an Angel Wargamers teammate, called it a draw and passed out on a sofa.

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:19 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12759
Location: Otherworld
Warriors are exactly the enemy you want Unforging for though I guess. There are only so many ways to deal with those tank characters and this is one of the best. In general I used to sit down, confident that High Magic was going to cause an opponent all kinds of woe and was seldom disappointed. Beasts has been OK but it just doesn't carry the same power. My new list demands Life, I've always had an urge to raise stuff from the dead!

As you touched on before sir, I get the feeling that Sisters of Avelorn benefit from being a fair size, to ensure you strip Regen, to benefit more from spell buffs and to justify the Handmaiden with her nice Quick to Fire. As you say, you have three units big enough to hold a Chimaera. The logic of larger units with High Elves seems hard to avoid these days. My Wild Rider bus had a horrible experience with a Khorne Chariot at the Pillage (dice). Cue my change to a more resilient unit with re-rolls in.

Maybe I'm looking at this through other elf eyes but the vast majority of WE or DE shooting is S3 AP. That can potentially shoot up a 2+ save bus but not a 1+ one. The S6 GW's are interesting though. Kind of like White Lions with armour.

I wrote a HE list and it wasn't hopeless, perhaps because of things like World Dragon and Frostheart. But limited models forced some inefficient units. I opened my WE case afterwards and virtually every unit is sharp. The acid test comes three weeks today.

The 0 VP's for the last game at Tribute was a little suspicious. If you're going to emulate Curu and get to the ETC this is not the way to proceed!

:)

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:36 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Haha, I can safely say that getting completely wasted from 10am on a Saturday and then keep it up until 4am on Sunday morning is not the way to improve your game. Anyone who didn't know that already, please take note. On 2.4K lists generally, I will say that I'm wondering if dropping down to one eagle is really a sensible idea. If I played 2.4 more I'd look at tweaking it, but sicne all my games are 2.5 I'm happy to just pretend that 2.4 doesn't exist.

I guess life magic makes up for the slightly more frail knights. I've always preferred having the good mundane attacking potential in a combat block and using magic to plug the gaps in defence. Guess this guy made the same call.

True dat re. big units. You can't benefit from martial prowess with only two ranks of troops, Shield of Saphery makes a better dice investment where it casts its umbrella over more models (in particular characters), and the characters themselves are more attractive since our magic items are good, and they're our only way of getting high strength attacks which still has ASF. I'd feel a bit sad about this but the truth is that the new book is also amazing at board control, which is something our old MSU (or in my case MSU-ish) setups were aiming at anyway. 70 point bolt throwers, core fast cavalry, signature magic missiles and the new movement buffs are all big steps up in the board control department. And there's nothing to stop us using solo characters as an MSU unit. The new star lance noble toting golden crown and charmed shield is really good at this - except he has the advantage of never reforming etc.

I would agree that sisters fall into the same basic pattern. But 24" range and no musician is a big weakness for a 24" unit. What sort of armies are we seeing these units in? I guess if you have enough ranged power to force people into the jaws of all that short range fire, they'd make a lot of sense. I guess movement spells could make up for the lack of flexibility too: walk between worlds and hand of glory would find a big unit of sisters one of its better targets.

All the wood elves seem like they're brilliant at what they do (I leave out the dryads etc), but they can't get ward saves, heavy armour and bolt throwers baby!

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1695 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55 ... 57  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group