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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:50 am 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
I find that "interpretation" rather picky (to put it mildly). Is there any precedence saying that a champion of any kind, if allowed to take a magic item to a certain point allowance, cannot take it because it is reserved for heroes/lords?


The closest parallel would probably be Arcane Items.

Only wizards may take Arcane Items.
If you're not a wizard, you may not take an Arcane Item (even though your army list entry says you may take "magic items").

Only characters may take the Star Lance.
If you're not a character, you may not take the Star Lance.
(even though your army list entry says you may take "magic weapons").

That's my scientific take on it at least, maybe Seredain can match it with a legal interpretation too ;)

I'm not sure on the Ironcurse Icon, but it wouldn't surprise me if similar exclusionary language exists. I think the magic items section only ever refers to characters having magic items though, so there's some sort of indication that champions that are allowed magic items should be considered as a character for those rules too- but then you get more cans of worms open ("Okay, if you're going to say your champion counts as a character for magic weapon purposes, I'm saying he counts as one for my Sword of Anti-Heroes!").


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:27 pm 
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Unfortunately, Swordie, in this instance the restrictive view seems to correspond exactly with the clear wording of the item description. The ironcurse icon is different, because there is no express distinction as to who can carry it: I believe (and as quoted) the item description mentions 'character' only in terms of who benefits from its effects, so you can allow for some sloppy wording without going against an express rule (although it is worth noting that none of our unit champions can carry enchanted items anyway). So Stormie's Arcane example strikes me as a better comparison.

It's a real pain, and my gaming circle wouldn't have a problem with it if I fielded a lancemaster, but I wouldn't want to get too used to relying on a unit selection which any opponent, at any time, could call out as illegal. RAW is too clear to have a good defence if and when that happens, unless a tourney expressly rules otherwise.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:49 pm 
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Ironcurse Icon - "The character (and any unit he is with) gain a 6+ ward save against war machine weapons."

Eerily similar to the Starlance's "Mounted character only." I guess Ironcurse shouldn't be equipped by champions if we're going to be consistent across the rules. Although you are right that champions can no longer take enchanted items anyways so it is a moot point. Just odd that interpretations of "character" are as inconsistent as they are.

I agree though, shoddy rule writing as usual by GW.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:02 pm 
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Nah, Stormie, it is rule lawyering approach, not scientific. :P

Scientific is:

Drakemaster can have magic weapon up to certain value --> Star Lance is magic weapon in the frame of point allowance --> Drakemaster can be equipped with Star Lance :)

Pure logic :D

Up to you guys. I understand the approach that if in doubt one takes something that is allowed for sure. Asking TO before each even is quite bothersome.

Ok, let's leave it like that, we all have our opinions. More important matter, Seredain, where are the reports? :)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:13 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Nah, Stormie, it is rule lawyering approach, not scientific. :P

Scientific is:

Drakemaster can have magic weapon up to certain value --> Star Lance is magic weapon in the frame of point allowance --> Drakemaster can be equipped with Star Lance :)

Pure logic :D

Up to you guys. I understand the approach that if in doubt one takes something that is allowed for sure. Asking TO before each even is quite bothersome.

Ok, let's leave it like that, we all have our opinions. More important matter, Seredain, where are the reports? :)



Hey now! Lawyering is logical! The difference is, we lawyers tend to mold language to our preferred view. Completely logical see! It's facts that we like to conveniently ignore.


PS - As a lawyer I feel I can mock my profession with complete abandon.


PPS - I second SM. Where are some reports?! Curious to know how the changes plan out.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:06 am 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Nah, Stormie, it is rule lawyering approach, not scientific. :P

Scientific is:

Drakemaster can have magic weapon up to certain value --> Star Lance is magic weapon in the frame of point allowance --> Drakemaster can be equipped with Star Lance :)

Pure logic :D

Up to you guys. I understand the approach that if in doubt one takes something that is allowed for sure. Asking TO before each even is quite bothersome.

Ok, let's leave it like that, we all have our opinions. More important matter, Seredain, where are the reports? :)


Well Swordmaster that may be your final word but it’s not mine! I’d let Seredain or a mod tell me the word is final, but not someone articulating one side of an argument.

Your counter to my argument is not scientific because it does not have a control. Although it seems accurate, there is no way to test its validity. I use the wizard and Arcane Items function to make my claim, so we need to test if your reasoning holds up, using the same standards. Your argument depends on that A is always allowed X, even if X’s own rules forbid it, as long as X fulfils another allowed characteristic. So, like a Dispel Scroll’s rules forbid a non-wizard from taking it, or the Star Lance’s rules forbid a non-character from taking it. Break it down to even more pure logic:
1) A may take item from group of X…YZ
2) Only B may take X
3) A =/= B
4) Therefore A may not take X

Your logical argument removed (2) from the process. If you remove (2), then what you say is true. I consider my argument scientific, because it states all the relevant facts. I consider your argument more like lawyering because it neglects to mention facts that are inconvenient. But perhaps I am being unfair on lawyers here? :D

The difficult part here is that (1) and (2) are slightly contradictory, but (2) is stronger than (1). If it wasn’t, then your Noble could take a Dispel Scroll by that same logic. In fact you can ignore line (1) , as (2) is all you need to know that (4) is true, as long as (3) is true. Or if your mum told you that you can buy a chocolate bar up to a value of $1, but you may not buy a Mars Bar, then you would still not be allowed the Mars Bar, even if it’s a chocolate bar under the price of a dollar.

Now that’s MY final word on it. You don’t have to reply though ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:30 am 
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Hi Stormie,

It is a great reasoning and if we had more of such well structured posts I am sure there will be less misunderstandings! Just a clarification, that I had absolutely no intention to say who can or cannot add to the discussion as I have no right to do so. I simply wanted to avoid the path were we go into some rules discussion in Seredain's topic. I do hope I was not misunderstood and that my post was taken as an easy going comment, added in good will and definitely with good intentions!

I actually believe we may both be correct (shock! how is that possible on the internet! :lol:). In my opinion it boils down to what we consider as relevant. Obviously, you take the description "character" as a reference to hero/lord types. This is an assumption you made and with that in mind your approach is valid.

I don't because I am sceptical. GW rules are not known for their precision, hence I am in doubt if the word "character" should be treated the way you do. Let me give you a counter argument as an example.

At some stage the magical halberd carried by Caradryan, Captain of the Phoenix Guard, didn't have a word "halberd" in its description. Players argued that without such description it does not confer +1S as normal halberd does. Despite the fact we were talking abut the captain of the Phoenix Guard whose model was clearly equipped with the halberd. Later on the FAQ added that description.

Having said that I really like the way you framed your reasoning. Thank you for that! :)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:03 pm 
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I think we are long overdue a FAQ from GW.

The fluff text in the book for the starlance is perfect for a drakemaster to be carrying it.

Not the most evidence based argument you see...........but I like it.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:15 pm 
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Hi guys,

After sleepless night of pondering about that issue, amazed by the sharp logic presented by Stormie and many consultations with the army book and rule book I withdraw my previous statements and agree with Stormie and Seredain. Thanks a lot for a very solid reasoning! And apologies to Seredain for a slight deterioration of his topic.

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:56 pm 
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Batreps on the way! Had quite a few games. Things have gone well, then very well, then absolutely totally balls. Went to a one-dayer today and lost every single game. My hangover just got SO much worse.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:40 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
Batreps on the way! Had quite a few games. Things have gone well, then very well, then absolutely totally balls. Went to a one-dayer today and lost every single game. My hangover just got SO much worse.


One step back...and then charge forward! Bad days happen :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:26 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
Went to a one-dayer today and lost every single game.

Quote from the chess world:

"It is not enough to be a good player. You must also play well."

:)

(I'm feeling your pain bro...)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:18 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Seredain wrote:
Went to a one-dayer today and lost every single game.

Quote from the chess world:

"It is not enough to be a good player. You must also play well."

:)

(I'm feeling your pain bro...)


This is awesome :)

Bring on the reports!

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:45 pm 
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Interesting discussion on Swordmasters. Seredain, can you post your current list please? I`m having a little trouble finding the right reference, your first post's "the current list" still has the old book's list ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:16 pm 
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Chaps,

Apologies for having been afk for so long (Arhain I owe you some reports!) - been moving house and couch-surfing for like a month so no blog-time. But now would be a good time to dive back in, since I've just got back from SCGT.

I'm knackered, but at least I took lots of photos.

P.S. Curu, I understand that SpellArcher passed on my latest list to you already. We'll have to cover this point again, though, as there have been some big changes...

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:16 am 
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Seredain,
Welcome Back!

You probably don't remember me. I started slowly reading my way through your entire thread last year and might have made a comment or 2 some time ago, but hadn't posted in your thread anytime recently. Despite this I've learned allot from just sitting back and following the evolution of your list. I've also really enjoyed reading it and have based some of my lists around ideas I borrowed from you. Hopefully, I'll stop just lurking and actually contribute now that you're back.

Quote:
But now would be a good time to dive back in, since I've just got back from SCGT.

I'm knackered, but at least I took lots of photos.


I’m looking forward to it.

Thank you.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:32 am 
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Yes Seredain tuck your chin and lower your lance! I am pie festival excited about your report.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:16 pm 
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Nice one!

I was listening about SCGT on Baddice - how did you get on? Looking forward to the report!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:11 am 
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Cold Phoenix, Oreaper, Niall, thanks for the pep! We've got a lot to get through. I'll start at the beginning...

Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes - the build-up to South Coast


By the time I went to South Coast, my army list had undergone a significant shift, the result of game experience and, in particular, attendance at my first ever two-day tournament 5ish weeks ago at Bristol. I had a decent time - 3 wins from 5 games (on 4 hours sleep over two nights - like a boss! - got very ill the week after though..), but against certain kinds of lists, and good players, I ran into a couple of problems, and not for the first time.

The first of these was against full-tilt gunlines with hard-to-kill guns (at Bristol, Chaos Dwarfs). Firstly, the combination of Star Lance BSB and the bodyguard of 9 helms full command (so 8 rank and file), was fragile. The best way round this was to rush into combat. Ostensibly this was easy against gunlines, but in a recent game against a very good Empire player (narrow win - hard fought), I started re-learning something that, at Bristol, really came back to bite. If you are running a cavalry unit that can't afford to take too many rounds of high-strength shooting, and can't take charges from powerful units and hold, you have a serious problem. In these circumstances, you play our movement advantage - hover just beneath your average charge range from your chosen target and just above theirs, so you can get the charge and rock all those Str 7 attacks. To do otherwise would be to invite an enemy charge and rely on 4 attacks from the prince to do all the heavy work - not enough against decent opposition. A cautious opponent will not take this charge, however, if he can just pound you with his guns. So, at Bristol, I had deployed well and surrounded my Chaos Dwarf opponent for a charge. But Turn 2 (having moved in cover Turn 1), I hovered at medium range with the helm bus against a unit of 4 bull centaurs with BC hero - against these I figured I needed the Star Lance working, and that 4 attacks from the Giant Blade would not be enough. My opponent backed up to keep my charge distance long - stranding my bus in the open - and let rip with his guns. A direct hit from a hell cannon saw me fail 6 of my 8 4+ armour saves. Two doomrockets later and, with no LOS, my prince lay dead. Sure I got unlucky but, had I felt able to close up to the bull centaurs the previous turn, I would've prevent the BC's escape and forced them to take the charge as the best of bad options, getting my prince safe into combat. Dancing around the edges gave my opponent chances he shouldn't have had.

So, the first thing was to reclaim the old bus's character of mobile heavy infantry - able to take charges as well as make them. So the Star Lance, Ench Shield, OTS on the BSB was out for the Ogre Blade, Ench Shield and Luckstone. I recently wrote that the BSB's primary job was to support the prince against the grandest enemy characters. I was wrong. Primarily, the helm bus needs to be happy getting into combat with most enemy units, taking charges if necessary, and cut them up over sustained rounds of combat. If I can take charges and grind combats, I can get into more combats more quickly, and beat a wider variety of units. The Ogre Blade and Giant Blade combo gives me this - the one hit wonder Star Lance does not. OTS, in the end, was a luxury I could not afford. It is likely I will see myself 6-dicing Arcane Unforging more often to subdue unkillable enemy lords but, since these are rarer than enemy units, so be it.

The second big problem was what, exactly, I should do with my level 2 mage. Since my army was toting two lords and two heroes, and trying to get the most out of Martial Prowess (by toting two good-sized infantry units of 3 ranks), it didn't have that many drops in which to hide a fragile caster. Combat units weren't a good option, of course, and the 6 sisters I field were (and are) too small to be a reliable bodyguard. That left the archers - largely sat at range and with enough bodies to take some damage without exposing the mage. Big problems here. Firstly, the point of fielding the large archer unit was, in part, that it could bring me some core-infantry combat/steadfast-breaking duties against horde infantry, or as a source of static res against more elite troops. The first problem with the level 2 was that he precluded these uses, limiting the army's basic flexibility (unless I was happy to throw away an easy 150 points).

The second big problem was a direct result of the first. Being more inclined to keep my archers (and their cargo) well away from the fighting, it became much more likely that they'd be stuck away from my helms' leadership bubble and, too often, apparently safe very close to my backline. A failed panic test - very possible with base leadership 8 - and I could lose not only a large (valuable) unit of elves, but the caster inside. Lists featuring a number of mounted heroes offered me the same problem - when my bolt throwers failed to find their mark (as they sometimes do, dice games being what they are). One failed steadfast break test and I would likely lose close to 400 points of unit in one go. This unit was the worst kind of points sink - expensive and vulnerable - and there was nowhere good for it to sit. Close to combat risked losing 2 magic levels, sitting too far away risked leadership disasters against gunlines or single characters. In order to sow the archers back into the body of the army, where their ranks could serve a useful purpose, I would need to ditch the liability they were carting about (or else split them up into small units devoid of any serious close-combat purpose and far less able to benefit from Hand of Glory). I decided that the Shadow mage had to go.

The replacement needed to fill a few gaps - unit support, a counter to spammable single cavalry-characters (scar-vets, dark elf masters etc), and something to help take out war machines. I chose another hero: a mounted noble with a lance, dragon armour, Charmed Shield and the Reaver Bow / Potion of Strength combo. Less spell support, more tools for actual killing (and an added source of Ld 9 to boot). The archers then became the unit they needed to be to fulfil the role I wanted them for: 24 strong, full command, no expensive baggage.

And so the wheel turned and the whole army with it. The first casualty from the hero-switch was the Book of Hoeth. It is a superb item but, against powerful magic phases with critical spells, Death snipes and Dwellers in particular, you can't rely on beating 6 dice with a couple fewer dice and a re-roll. For my wardless fighters, the scroll felt essential. So I was now down to a single caster with no re-rollable dice per cast. Ward-save generation was no longer something I could do whilst also successfully casting spells I might actually want to get through in a pinch (Arcane Unforging in particular). So now I had to overhaul my unit of elite infantry: without the dedicated support of the redundancy-heavy re-rolling High phase, swordmasters could no longer be my elite block of choice in an all-comers context.

The obvious replacement choice was phoenix guard. Base leadership 9, true ASF and their own ward save: they could operate without character support at all. With the archmage, only one spell would see them wield a mighty 3+ ward save, replacing the reliability of the Book of Hoeth from the other end. And a unit with that kind of ward save would have little need of the Banner of the World Dragon: the AP banner stepped in for swordmaster-level armour penetration. Against hordes, elves or massed war machines, I was also now free to deploy the archmage with the archers - spreading good ward saves and high leadership across the army, and getting the choice to switch up my High spell selection from buffs to more damage spells. Alternatively, against heavy elites such as warriors of chaos, the 3++ phoenix guard unit could take on some of the worst units out there. With ranks of liberated archers in support and a new fighting archer-lance-assassin (who could run solo or add extra beef to the dragon princes or helm bus). When the dust settled (and the pain dried), my new army was more muscular in combat, better at shooting and better tied together than before, in exchange for a trimmed magic phase. I had no time at all to test it: after a couple of victorious practice games against monster mash lizzies and shooty infantry dark elves, it was time for SCGT.

The list:

Prince - Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Barded Steed - 276
Level 4 High Archmage - Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Endurance, Ring of Khaine's Fury - 300

BSB - Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone, Dragon Armour, Barded Steed - 170
Noble - Reaver Bow, Potion of Strength, Charmed Shield, Lance, Dragon Armour, Barded Steed - 151

24 Archers - Full Command - 270
9 Silver Helms - Musician, Standard - 227
5 Reavers - Musician, Spears, Bows - 105

21 Phoenix Guard - Full Command, Razor Standard - 390
5 Dragon Princes - Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame - 165

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 210
6 Firebows - 84
1 Eagle - 50

2398 points


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I apologise in advance for a whooole load of blurry pictures taken with my phone. Needs must!

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Last edited by Seredain on Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:59 am 
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Looking good! Interesting to see the evolution of the list via cumulative changes :)

Coming at it from a very different direction, I've been thinking recently about using MSU cavalry units as multiple character delivery systems. This list would benefit from more drops and flexibility, with the option to put any combination of characters anywhere, but risks more from cannons and grinds. Is it something you've given any thought to? I don't think it fits with your current thoughts on the helms as being mobile infantry though, so I may have caught you at the wrong point of the circle to ask :wink: .

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:51 am 
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Hey Ferny,

MSU cavalry can't be the answer for me. The prince is 376 points worth of general and I am trying to minimise the number of hard counters out there. Chariot cannons are already uncomfortable to play against, and would be more so if I put my prince in one of several units of 5 knights. No good having the redundancy of multiple units here - my opponent would put two cannonballs through the prince's unit and take him straight out. I can see this working for cav-noble armies though - a good number of cheap heroes toting the Golden Crown, Charmed Shield, Opal Amulet and some High spells and you'd have some flexible cavnoble action with a bit of cannonball-bouncing ability. But a prince is always going to have a target on his head and get taken out in a list like this, and getting less resistant to cannons and grinds isn't what my army needs!

In general, elven cavalry armies are likely to struggle with grinding because we don't have access to knights with sustained high strength attacks. On balance, then, I think this is a weakness that needs remedying in a true all-comers army. Indeed this is where the cavalry prince comes in, and a cavprince will always need a bodyguard of a certain size not to get his head blown off on a very regular basis!

I'm keen to see any tester list you might be thinking of though, Ferny. Perhaps elite infantry heavy with MSU helms and nobles..?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:46 am 
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No, I agree that it wouldn't work with your list, though I'm glad to see we're thinking along similar lines for what might work. I've gone Loremaster rather than high - partly because of the history of where I'm coming from with this list, but also I think he works very well here. I suspect I might have fewer nobles than you imagined, although I don't know where I'd shave the points for a third?

Here's my current roster - I might switch luckstone for charmed shield on the starlance noble. Sadly no slots/points for the golden crown if I take TOTS, which I feel I kinda owe to myself to take on a combat character (despite the opposite conclusion you've just reached!).

viewtopic.php?p=874579#p874579

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:59 am 
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Seredain, interestingly I've run into a very similar problem against my usual Dark Elf opponent. When you play against someone who can throw multiple Doombolts, Soulblight and Black Horror or Word of Pain at you, it becomes very important to get into combat as quickly as possible, because one of those at the wrong time can cost you the game. My solution has been to give my BSB Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, OTS and a Luckstone, for sustained combat. To make up for the loss of killing power, my Lv2 Scroll Caddy has been given an Elven Steed, the Golden Crown and Lore of Beasts. He fits quite nicely in the rear of my Helm bus, which keeps him safe until one of the other characters or the champion bites it. It also means that the mage is always in range to cast Wildform and other useful spells such as Savage Beast on my Cav bus.

I've found that the lore change can have interesting effects on my opponent's dispelling strategy, depending on the spells I roll. The people I've tried this against quickly decide that they don't want Wildform going off on the Helm bus. Depending on the circumstances, Amber Spear, Curse or (especially) Savage Beasts on the Prince/BSB can also draw a dispel scroll.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:46 am 
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It`s an interesting list development you have going on here Seredain, not least because I think it`s a bad one ^^ I think you are asking too much of your cavalry while neglecting other areas: you lack serious hitting power from your infantry, against T6+ stuff in combat you`re really looking for your cavalry to do all the lifting. Against T5 the PG will also struggle and their relatively small size doesn`t do them any favours either.

As such I believe your new list is more durable, but less hitty and with more extreme dangers. Without BOTWD your AM is weaker against miscasts, snipes and units that can just go in, assassination-style with magical attacks (e.g. Frostheart Phoenix, Hexwraiths, Daemon Prince). The cavalry bus is still very small. You said CD was a problem. What about Dwarfs? A single round of Organ Gun shooting, even at long range in soft cover, can easily leave you without LoS! before the cannons go off. A build I discussed recently was as follows: 2x Cannons, 2x Organ Guns, 2x30 Warriors, 25 Hammerers with super-stubborn banner, 2 scrollsmiths etc. Both Organ Guns have BS5. A fairly common build, and Dwarfs aren`t the only ones who can muster this ranged presence - Empire with Coven of Light and Chaos Dwarfs with Iron Daemon + Hashut have the same capability, along with shooty-Ogres to round it off. Killing 5 Helms removes look out, sir! In a world where everyone is tailoring to handle T4 1+ MC, T3 2+ sadly isn`t much to write home about. My experience is that even 11 r`n`f Helms is a bit on the short side.

Phoenix Guard, while a great unit, in my experience demand some serious support. Can it work with just a single cavbus + minimized Dragon Princes? Originally, I wouldn`t think so, but I`m hoping your SCGT experience has already proven me wrong ;)

I`m looking forward to hearing about SCGT games and I`m really hoping that you were happy with the changes, despite my comments above (which are only meant to be constructive). I do really fear however that the list ends up playing too much relying on one unit.

Lastly, have you considered a Loremaster in place of an L4? Granted he`s a lot more dependent on the Book of Hoeth than the L4, but he`s a very good character to go with the PG, both in terms of spells and combat role.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:41 am 
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Ferny, I used to run MSU cavalry, albeit without characters. But I had a unit of five DP's with Potion of Strength which could mimic their ranged hitting power. This unit ran over Sphynxes, Chaos Knights etc and was a vital tool. I've since moved to Wood Elves though and my current unit of Stag Lord with 8 Wild Riders has been a revelation. I've only played 6 games with it but it's been good in every game. It has run over Skullcrushers, held a unit of 12 Kroxigor in place for three player turns (Gleaming Pennant), killed three Skillcannon etc.. Nothing else in my army can do these things. The sobering thing is, that Seredain's unit just does them better. I'm considering a return to HE's but am struggling with the loss of this unit (it looks really cool too!). Of course I could just copy Seredain but want to keep a unique flavour. The bottom line is that it opens up so many options for an army, it really is that good IMHO.

Curu, how do the Organs get to BS5?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:02 am 
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SpellArcher - I really like MSU cavalry as support elements. 5 DP is plenty enough to hurt and are surprisingly resilient. Min-helms are excellent for going where reavers fear to tread and for providing solid CR from flank/rear charges with 2+AS and S5 ASF. And reavers speak for themselves...the thing which is new to me is more the idea of using them (possibly) as combat units in their own right and supporting them (or going solo) with characters.

I'd love to give magic non-weapons to DPs...I think I'd give them TOTS or PoS as items 1 and 2 and enchanted shield/dawnstone next, assuming these items aren't variously already taken by characters. With changes in my list I've only just discovered the (on paper) joys of lance+PoS on 1+/1+ noble - I think it's better than starlance!

Regarding your stag unit - it sounds similar to my helms+BSB, although I think you maybe use yours more aggressively than I expect to. Maybe it would translate well to High Elves - there are a few builds for noble characters which look decent, and you can always use your WE models as cool 'counts as' Avelorn or even wood elf army (using HE rules). I wouldn't worry that your WE unit isn't as good as Seredain's - it's presumably a lot cheaper too? And is shackled by the old book. How would it compare if you had ASF on your elves as well?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:41 pm 
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interesting developments.

how do you rate the utility noble after SCGT?
did u find wanting to use the reaver bow held you back from combats or that wanting him to march with the dragon princes impeded the bows use?

regarding the phoenix guard, I think you are going to miss the extra strength and hittyness of the swordmasters?
I think high magic does more for the swordmasters than phoenix guard? high magic gives protection(hand of glory/shield of saphery), the phoenix guard don't need that, I think they would benefit more from shadow maybe?
and if you are looking to grind combats, as you mentioned, would bring life back into the equation? shield of thorns, flesh to stone etc.


also the banner of the world dragon or lack of.....

soooo how did that go?!

I find its too good not to take, it singlehandedly stops a lot of big gribblies and nasty characters, for example, who does a demon prince want to fight, your BOTWD unit or your prince unit?! harder choices. but again it will depend on your meta.

also, our dark kin... did you face any dark elves? I think they are a terrible match up for us? any thoughts?

looking forward to your next round of updates :D

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:19 pm 
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If you're not taking BotWD on your elite troops (and I agree that for PG you don't need it), then it becomes available for your helms. This would cover a few problems with your build: ward vs characters in combat, death snipes, focussed magical assault, and some dwarf warmachines. It would have to go on the BSB...but personally I'm not convinced by your particular utility set-up for a mounted BSB - he loses most defensive magic items and forces the bus to either restrict its movement or he loses his shots/accuracy, so for a straight trade you lose relatively little.

However, you might then be tempted to add another noble to the bus to give it more oomph and knock the BSB to the second rank. Alternatively/as well, you could mount your AM - but by this choice lore options become so varied due to the range of changes this all implies...

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:01 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Curu, how do the Organs get to BS5?


Master engineer + rune of +1 to hit. It is actually better than bs5 (marginally) because most spells, like miasma, can only reduce bs to 1, in which case it still hits on 5+ base. Taking the master engineer also provides hard cover, which makes pinging them highly unlikely

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:14 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
SpellArcher wrote:
Curu, how do the Organs get to BS5?


Master engineer + rune of +1 to hit. It is actually better than bs5 (marginally) because most spells, like miasma, can only reduce bs to 1, in which case it still hits on 5+ base. Taking the master engineer also provides hard cover, which makes pinging them highly unlikely


at least if the rune is used you can push a BOTWD unit up in the organ guns face.

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