The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

[Bolt Thrower]

Ah, what a lovely sight! Nothing I love more than total elf domination.

I have been considering lately the struggles I have in my games and believe that the Sword Master brick is a possible solution. While games are few and far between at the moment (lots of moving and our first baby on the way), I am lucky to have a resource such as you to research the SM brick vicariously.

Under the old book I much preferred Prince/Noble foot builds to cav builds, but that is almost a death wish in the new book it seems. Considering that, I also wanted a list that suits my personality a bit more which focuses a little less on the general and more on the main unit threats. So, I have a little variation to try and wonder if you may have feedback.

I have considered adding either shadow warriors or sisters somehow and am curious about your experience with sisters (or which page you may have already commented on this). What do they add that you don't get elsewhere? Is there another unit that may be a "close second" to them?

One thing to note about my meta: Hordes. Constantly.

2500 points
Archmage - lvl4, high, book of Hoeth, ironcurse icon, talisman of endurance
Archmage - lvl4, high, ring of fury, scroll, talisman of preservation
Noble (thanks Nicene!) - General, dragon armour, barded steed, lance, ench. shield, dawnstone, potion of strength
Noble - BSB, dragon armour, barded steed, GW, crown, charmed shield, star lance, foolhardiness

15 archers
15 archers
5 reavers, musician
10 silver helms, FC, shields

20 sword masters, FC, world dragon
20 sword masters, FC, lichebone pennant

2 RBT
2 eagles

[Seredain]

Bolt Thrower,

Great to see a list like this - never seen anything like it!

Thankfully I've been spared the chore of switching up my fighting characters too much, as our cavalry characters have changed not very much at all (a couple of losses, probably more gains). Because I've never fielded foot fighters in normal-sized games, I haven't had to think much about how our infantry heroes are faring. Solid armour looks difficult to come by of course, but at least the Shield of the Merwyrm is wonderfully cheap but it takes up the armour slot. It's clear we lost some straight-up combat power from our infantry characters, but in the loremaster and annointed we at least get some exciting new abilities to compensate through unit buffs. It's great that the annointed gets his 4++ without having to spend any valuable item points. It's not enough for me to get off my horse, but these new lords are another layer in the many ways the book has compensated us for the loss of true ASF from our swordmasters and white lions.

On this note, I can see why you'd want High magic on both your swordmaster units. I've never fielded double archmages at these points so I'm curious: why did you plump for double High, in the end? I'd say from the off that you have a fantastic trickle magic phase sporting enough Shield-generating spells to protect such aggressive melee units, that you can live without the Ring of Fury. Your swords will have better things to do than think about hovering at 18" to shoot a Str4 missile and, once in combat, they'll see no benefit from it. If you lost that and the lichebone pennant, you could look at taking the AP banner on that second unit. If all your magic is geared to generating defence, you may see more benefit if one of your swords can chop armour to pieces a bit better. I think that's worth thinking about, because your anti-armour options are currently limited to the one combat unit and a couple of repeaters, and you'll need a way to cut the infantry mashers up before they start stomping you. 8 High spells, most of them very cheap, is much more shield generation than I get, but it also needs more dice, so your fortunes may ebb and flow with the power dice more than mine (more gain and more pain), unless you have a way of doing the damage you need before you take the hits. Likewise you'll be more comfortable than me against hordes, but you're also obviously much more open than me to the anti-infantry hard counters that you'll see (I imagine?) on a fairly regular basis. Although an aggressive buff, something like the AP banner may take some of the strain off your defence in these situations. Initiative buffs, or nerfs, could also be crucial in weak magic phases where generating two decent shields is maybe asking too much.

If you do think it might be a bit risky, and you're choosing the second High archmage for his Shield more than for his spells, I was chatting to SpellArcher about our infantry (brilliant with our many methods of support - including ranks - more vulnerable without), and he observed that, if you're going to take two medium-big units at these points, it makes sense to make one of them phoenix guard. If you did do this, you'd still have a unit that was able to kill hordes (albeit less well), but you wouldn't have to spend all your power dice every turn generating shields for two units. Instead, you could be freer to choose a lore that works with your choice of High spells, or else mine away at the points in that second archmage and buy yourself some more toys. Of course, you could turn the other way. You have a redundancy of swordmasters here, so you could perhaps afford to take a more aggressive lore with a good synergistic signature and decide that, while Unit A is your reliable all-comers melee unit, Unit B is your full-on attacking blender of doom.

So I guess it comes down to this: what do you want to achieve with your magic phase?

Sisters

For me, sisters are essential. If you're able to put a decent variety of shooting out into the field in great numbers, as we can with our bolts and longbows, then you're in a brilliant position to put massive damage into all the regenerating units we are likely to face for a relatively small outlay. Your case is a good example. You've spent 300 points on core troops with longbows. How much more value would you be able to get out of these points if you could prize regeneration off a troll unit for only 70 points? Against that, however, you've only spent 140 points on repeaters rather than my 280, so perhaps the shooting phase is an assistant to your army, rather than one of its real strengths (as I've tried to make mine). Sisters are perhaps more useful to me than to you.

Nonetheless, I think flaming is important because, unless you have a tool against them, units like trolls, chimeras and abominations seem very cheap for the amount of devastation they cause, and the regen spells out there go from circumstantial to brilliant. And for you this is a massive issue, because you have two big combat units both naturally vulnerable (unshielded) to Str5+ return attacks and stomps. If you don't face regenerating beasts in large numbers, then obviously no problem. But personally I see them enough that I've taken 5 sisters and a flaming combat unit (now dragon princes), to give me two counters with my shooting phase and then combat phase. With your list, I imagine you'd be chucking all your dice at a ward save for the sword unit fighting against trolls, but if both units are heavily engaged, you might have a nasty decision to make if you run into a small magic phase. So it's worth you asking yourself: what do you do if a troll horde parks itself across from you?

[Bolt Thrower]

Wow, thanks so much for the time! I'll only put a couple answers to your questions and then copy this over to my horribly dusty army blog so that yours can stay focused on the Cavalry Prince.

Bolt Thrower,

Great to see a list like this - never seen anything like it!

Thankfully I've been spared the chore of switching up my fighting characters too much, as our cavalry characters have changed not very much at all (a couple of losses, probably more gains). Because I've never fielded foot fighters in normal-sized games, I haven't had to think much about how our infantry heroes are faring. Solid armour looks difficult to come by of course, but at least the Shield of the Merwyrm is wonderfully cheap but it takes up the armour slot. It's clear we lost some straight-up combat power from our infantry characters, but in the loremaster and annointed we at least get some exciting new abilities to compensate through unit buffs. It's great that the annointed gets his 4++ without having to spend any valuable item points. It's not enough for me to get off my horse, but these new lords are another layer in the many ways the book has compensated us for the loss of true ASF from our swordmasters and white lions.

For me it's mainly the armour loss. Sporting the 2+ rerollable with 4++ on foot was amazing. Or even a 2+ rerollable 5++ with the radiant gem was fun for me. With that the loremaster really interested me, but having very similar shield love as you I want the archmage(s) running the show--at least for a while.

On this note, I can see why you'd want High magic on both your swordmaster units. I've never fielded double archmages at these points so I'm curious: why did you plump for double High, in the end? I'd say from the off that you have a fantastic trickle magic phase sport enough Shield-generating spells to protect such aggressive melee units, that you can live without the Ring of Fury. Your swords will have better things to do than think about hovering at 18" to shoot a Str4 missile and, once in combat, they'll see no benefit from it. If you lost that and the lichebone pennant, you could look at taking the AP banner on that second unit. If all your magic is geared to generating defence, you may see more benefit if one of your swords can chop armour to pieces. I think that's worth thinking about, because your anti-armour options are currently limited to the one combat unit and a couple of repeaters, and you'll need a way to cut the infantry mashers up before they start stomping you. 8 High spells, most of them very cheap, is much more shield generation than I get, but it also needs more dice, so your fortunes may ebb and flow with the power dice more than mine (more gain and more pain), unless you have a way of doing the damage you need before you take the hits. Likewise you'll be more comfortable than me against hordes, but you're also obviously much more open than me to the anti-infantry hard counters that you'll see (I imagine?) on a fairly regular basis. Although an aggressive buff, something like the AP banner may take some of the strain off your defence in these situations. Initiative buffs, or nerfs, could also be crucial in weak magic phases where generating two decent shields is maybe asking too much.

The double high was a theory I had about trying to duplicate the "desired" SM brick i.e. dragon banner with book mage. Generate ward protection for a major close combat threat with spam castings. The ring represents an early game "shield generator" for cheap and the lichebone pennant acts as a poor man's dragon banner with the shield increasing magic resistance wards. I changed my mind 1,000 times between it and the razor banner as it is typically my next go to banner, but the lichebone seemed so out of the box that I had to try it. As for heavy armour, I think it doesn't rate as highly on my counter list simply because I don't seem to face it as often as you may. That said, I'll have to prioritize RBT and my nobles to try and take those threats down in the current list variation.

If you do think it might be a bit risky, and you're choosing the second High archmage for his Shield more than for his spells I was chatting to SpellArcher about our infantry (brilliant with our many methods of support - including ranks - more vulnerable without); and he observed that, if you're going to take two medium-big units at these points, it makes sense to make one of them phoenix guard. If you did do this, you'd still have a unit that was able to kill hordes (albeit less well), but you wouldn't have to spend all your power dice every turn generating shields for two units. Instead, you could be freer to choose a lore that works with your choice of High spells, or else mine at that second archmage and buy yourself some more toys. Of course, you could turn the other way. You have a redundancy of swordmasters here, so you could perhaps afford to take a more aggressive lore with a good synergistic signature and decide that, while Unit A is your reliable all-comers melee unit, Unit B is your full-on attacking blender of doom.

So I guess it comes down to this: what do you want to achieve with your magic phase?

Phoenix Guard definitely are great in many circumstances and would more easily open up secondary lores as they have the nascent ward protection. However, I feel the perceived damage threat of 2 SM bricks could be even more psychologically challenging for an opponent to face. That said, perhaps a lore like Shadow could be a decent addition for a "blender of doom". Miasma benefits a SM brick similarly to Hand of Glory and spells like Withering are a great addition. Not to mention the tricks that could be had with smoke and mirrors between the two archmages. Hmmmm...

Sisters

For me, sisters are essential. If you're able to put a decent variety of shooting out into the field in great numbers, as we can with our bolts and longbows, then you're in a brilliant position to put massive damage into all the regenerating units we are likely to face for a relatively small outlay. Your case is a good example. You've spent 300 points on core troops with longbows. How much more value would you be able to get out of these points if you could prize regeneration off a troll unit for only 70 points? Against that, however you've only spent 140 points on repeaters rather than my 280, so perhaps the shooting phase is an assistant to your army, rather than one of its real strengths (as I've tried to make mine). Sisters are perhaps more useful to me than to you.

Nonetheless, I think flaming is important because, unless you have a tool against them, units like trolls, chimeras and abominations seem very cheap for the amount of devastation they cause, and the regen spells out there go from circumstantial to brilliant. And for you this is a massive issue, because you have two big combat units both naturally vulnerable (unshielded) to Str5+ return attacks and stomps. If you don't face regenerating beasts in large numbers, then obviously no problem. But personally I see them enough that I've taken 5 sisters and a flaming combat unit (now dragon princes), to give me two counters with my shooting phase and then combat phase. With your list, I imagine you'd be chucking all your dice at a ward save for the sword unit fighting against trolls, but if both units are heavily engaged, you might have a nasty decision to make if you run into a small magic phase. So it's worth you asking yourself: what do you do if a troll horde parks itself across from you?

Flaming attacks are one of the biggest misses for me. I think I have to work them in as regen does rear its head in armies I typically face. I can get in a min unit by rearranging some command options and dropping an eagle. While I hate to lose a redirector, they might be slightly less vital to me with the upgrade in close combat potential over my typical lists. The gain of negating regen outweighs that need in the end.

Seredain, thanks again for all the thoughts and time you put into every post. The conversations it generates amongst the community is great for all newbie, advanced, and veterans alike.

[Seredain]

Thanks BT, that's very kind of you.

Phoenix Guard definitely are great in many circumstances and would more easily open up secondary lores as they have the nascent ward protection. However, I feel the perceived damage threat of 2 SM bricks could be even more psychologically challenging for an opponent to face. That said, perhaps a lore like Shadow could be a decent addition for a "blender of doom". Miasma benefits a SM brick similarly to Hand of Glory and spells like Withering are a great addition. Not to mention the tricks that could be had with smoke and mirrors between the two archmages. Hmmmm...

That could be sneaky... Although I suppose a Shadow mage would have less reason to be in the unit in the first place if his presence does nothing for them, except perhaps he could act as a swapping partner for the High mage just to jump the shield around as you think you need it?

I think you'll appreciate the sister unit getting in somehow, yes. Living with one eagle is possible, for sure. In the end, it's likely that your sisters can just deploy forward with one of the infantry blocks and just act as a last-ditch eagle when the enemy gets close. Even if that just involves offering an overrun straight into a swordmaster unit, it at least gives you the opportunity to make a counter-attack before any combat is fought. I do think, though, that you'll find one eagle and a unit of reavers enough redirection. You're not losing any critical utility here, but potentially you're gaining a lot with the flaming shots. You could, of course, consider the flaming banner on one of the sword units, but it's probably unwise to expose such an important and expensive unit to hard counters.

The army's a really interesting concept in any case - looking forward to see how it progresses.

Cheers,
S

[Seredain]

Hello Seredain,

I think you would like to see a copy of your Cavalry Prince army riding other pastures, this time against Warriors of Chaos.

In spells I rolled 4,5,6,6 and 4,6 so I chose Drain Magic, Soul Quench, Hand Glory, Fiery Convocation, Iceshard Blizzard and Chain Lightning. The opponent had two 18x Nurglemen bricks, a Nurgle DP (Lvl 4, Death Magic), a turbo-ward save BSB riding a beast, four Dog units...
The only proxies are a tiranoc chariot representing a Chaos Beast Chariot and an elven Prince on a cardboard base representing another Chaos Beast Chariot.
End of Turn 2: http://postimg.org/image/dbk5ykfud/The Helm Bus is on the left of the red tower
End of Turn 4: http://postimg.org/image/6jtqvpqut/ The fallen nurglemens in the image are only made by the Helm Bus, before the attacks of the swordmasters on the flank hahaha

Flanks: Both units of Silver Helms early ate one dog unit on each flank, and the archers shooted down a third. I didn't take an important measurement and the last dog unit ate a RBT.
Turn 1 Fiery Convocation + shooting reduced my east flank Nurglemens to three models until Turn 4. They couldn't arrive to combat because they were crossing a river and they failed a L8 panic test with re-roll due to a single model dog.

Center: White Lions holded on the second Nurglemen brick (intact, 18 models) during Turn 3 and 4. Iceshard Blizzard was activated on the Nurglemen brick every moment. The opponent haven't tried to dispel it anytime, but he stopped my Shield of Saphery on the Swordmasters for two turns (Turn 3 Shield: 6+ Turn 4 Shield: nothing).
Swordmasters (intact, 21 models) on image 1 are flank-charged by two model Skulcrushers, holded L9 Steadfast, reorganized and massacred them (without any buff or hex help) ending Turn 3.

Turns 3 and 4:The Beast Chariots fled from both flanking (charging) Silver Helms, the DP was all the game hiding behind the Skulcrushers first and behind the Chariots later due to my ranged threat and the Nurglemen brick holded by the WL has a fatal ending on image 2 (Turn 4).

Questions to you:
1.- What right-guess and mistakes do you see on my deployment and first moves?
2.- As you can see on image 2, I haven't used any Eagle! Simply I haven't saw a moment to use them. What could be their best use in my game?
3.- With which wizard do you choose spells first? Why?

Thanks for reading my badly Google Translate helped post

Sutilar I still owe you a response to this game - sorry I'm so late.

A couple of points I picked up on while reading it:

Firstly, it's good to note that your swordmasters can't just be shrugged aside by a couple of skull crushers charging them in the flank (not that I'd recommend taking such charges too often!). It's always useful to remember that, even in a losing combat, ranked up infantry will hold with steadfast where you haven't exposed them to more damage than they can reasonably be expected to take.

Secondly, I note your problems with the Shield and, again (as often in this case), I see that you've taken Soul Quench on the archmage. Since you only have 4 spells to generate your shield with this build, I strongly advise you to avoid the magic missile if you can. Indeed, I would normally only take one damage spell where I had the choice (and you typically will), so that the majority of my High spells can be case in close combat and without targetting restrictions. If you have a decent defensive buff from the level 2 as well within range of the sword unit, you also get much better redundancy from your phase which provokes dispel problems for your opponent. If the level 2 is out of range, and you only have 2 High buff spells, your defensive options are halved, and it's much easier for your opponent to stop the shield going up. Remember - spell redundancy is key.

As to your questions:

1) I'm afraid it's hard to tell quite what's happening in deployment. I'd say in principle that, if your swords are fairly central and supported to your defensive flank by the archers, and supporting the helm bus on your attacking flank, you can't go too far wrong. This ensures your High spells can reach and support all three of these key units.

2) There's nothing wrong with not using eagles. They cost 50 points, so there's no reason to throw them away... unless there is. It's happened to me a few times when I've chosen to keep an eagle on the basis that my enemy was very unlikely to make a long charge... Only to see him make it and curse myself not for playing it safe! I actually have often found my 2nd eagle unused for redirection in many of my games. In the end, this was probably why I found it relatively easy to drop toward getting the 4th repeater bolt thrower.

3) I choose the High spells first. Once you've got these, you usually have a better idea whether you want your heavens mage to be carrying double buffs/hexes or a damage spell. It doesn't matter too much to this build - you almost always want the defensive signature to contribute to your the redundancy of your cheap Shield spells. The same principle lies with a Shadow level 2. Miasma is the keystone spell, and the extra is a bonus. But yes, I'd take the High spells first, just to sway my mind (even slightly) on what exactly I want that bonus to be.

Hope this helps.

[English 2000]

Game 3 with my Swordmaster list tonight and I'm happy to report a win. I played against Empire and took off all his toys and only gave up the level 2 mage and a unit of reavers for victory points.

I won first turn. 2 units of 5 Reavers took care of 2 out of 3 cannons and the helblaster over the course of 3 turns.

He had some bad luck with cannons shooting at my Frostheart. Out of 5 shots in 2 turns he had one misfire, one roll of 1 to wound, one misfired on the bounce, one was ward saved and the other did 3 wounds. Personally I think he should have grapeshotted the Reavers instead of shooting at the Frostheart on turns 1 and 2 and kept the cannons alive longer.

I lost 13 of 21 Swordmasters to Dwellers but killed 41 of 45 Halberdiers with Flames of the Phoenix. In one phase!! That's the first time I've ever used that spell. What a first time!

The remaining Swordmasters saw off 10 Knights with help from some archers. 3 Swordmasters survived to the end denying him the VPs for the unit (I still think half VPs should be awarded like 7th ed).

I was able to get my ward saves up pretty consistently on the Swordmasters, mostly because I was smarter with spell selection this time around. This list really relies on you choosing the right spells. Over the 5 turns I had 5++, 4++, 3++ and 4++ and 5++ (on a snakes eyes magic phase) so I did very well (and had some luck)

I took shadow for my back up caster and was much happier than the last two games with Heavens. I think my previous comments stand about Miasma being the go to spell on a secondary caster. I'll be sticking with Shadow over Heavens.

What concerned me the most is how similar his Empire list is to my own. I was able to pick him apart much more easily than I would have liked.

I use light magic and he used life. Life just sucks in comparison. That was one major factor.

His tactics are almost the mirror of my own though I definitely play a better movement phase with my Empire. He's more experienced with Empire then I am, but I think I'm a more experienced player overall.

It also helped that he doesn't know high elves very well while I knew his army and tactics as soon as I saw his models go down on the table.

It still doesn't bode well for my Empire in competitive play if they come up against a good high elf player.

While I'm not going to toot my own horn for beating a less experienced player I'm very happy with how I used my army and it bodes well for the continuation of my Swordmaster use. That makes me VERY happy because I've loved them since 6th edition when I started using high elves.

Thanks to Seredain and the rest of you for inspiring me to take my Swordmasters back off the shelf and give them a fair crack under the new book.

[Seredain]

Game 3 with my Swordmaster list tonight and I'm happy to report a win. I played against Empire and took off all his toys and only gave up the level 2 mage and a unit of reavers for victory points.

I won first turn. 2 units of 5 Reavers took care of 2 out of 3 cannons and the helblaster over the course of 3 turns.

He had some bad luck with cannons shooting at my Frostheart. Out of 5 shots in 2 turns he had one misfire, one roll of 1 to wound, one misfired on the bounce, one was ward saved and the other did 3 wounds. Personally I think he should have grapeshotted the Reavers instead of shooting at the Frostheart on turns 1 and 2 and kept the cannons alive longer.

I lost 13 of 21 Swordmasters to Dwellers but killed 41 of 45 Halberdiers with Flames of the Phoenix. In one phase!! That's the first time I've ever used that spell. What a first time!

The remaining Swordmasters saw off 10 Knights with help from some archers. 3 Swordmasters survived to the end denying him the VPs for the unit (I still think half VPs should be awarded like 7th ed).

I was able to get my ward saves up pretty consistently on the Swordmasters, mostly because I was smarter with spell selection this time around. This list really relies on you choosing the right spells. Over the 5 turns I had 5++, 4++, 3++ and 4++ and 5++ (on a snakes eyes magic phase) so I did very well (and had some luck)

I took shadow for my back up caster and was much happier than the last two games with Heavens. I think my previous comments stand about Miasma being the go to spell on a secondary caster. I'll be sticking with Shadow over Heavens.

What concerned me the most is how similar his Empire list is to my own. I was able to pick him apart much more easily than I would have liked.

I use light magic and he used life. Life just sucks in comparison. That was one major factor.

His tactics are almost the mirror of my own though I definitely play a better movement phase with my Empire. He's more experienced with Empire then I am, but I think I'm a more experienced player overall.

It also helped that he doesn't know high elves very well while I knew his army and tactics as soon as I saw his models go down on the table.

It still doesn't bode well for my Empire in competitive play if they come up against a good high elf player.

While I'm not going to toot my own horn for beating a less experienced player I'm very happy with how I used my army and it bodes well for the continuation of my Swordmaster use. That makes me VERY happy because I've loved them since 6th edition when I started using high elves.

Thanks to Seredain and the rest of you for inspiring me to take my Swordmasters back off the shelf and give them a fair crack under the new book.

Hey English,

Great news! Glad to see you finding some success with your swords. A few things leap out at me here:

Dwellers is a good way to take casualties on your swords... aaaaagh! Was this an irresistible job? Because this is why you hold on to mr dispel scroll. Otherwise this opponent is a good example of when swords make a good all-comers combat unit: something to tackle both knights and horde infantry.

Reavers beat eagles when it comes to taking out Empire cannons. I prefer eagles overall, because they're much cheaper and they make better pinpoint redirectors, but Empire is definitely a good match-up for the reavers.

Empire definitely not a good matchup for the frost phoenix. Looks like you got lucky there!

Great to see that you're finding the Shield as reliable as me. As you say, once you've got your spell selection sorted it's so hard to stop with your +5 to cast with re-roll. Nothing more satisfying than getting a 5++ on a snake-eyes magic phase. Whenever that happens I can sometimes see pure irritation radiating of my opponents.

I think there are three things straight off to say for Miasma over Iceshard Blizzard. It's got double the range, which is awesome. It has more viable targets because even the movement debuff is always handy. It's cheaper, so makes for cheeky 1-dice possibilities or safer 2-dicing. You don't get to try for the -2 to hit nerfs in close combat like you can with Blizzard + Hand, and you can't nerf war machines, which goes against it, but the number of other possible targets probably keeps it more useful in more matchups.

[Ferny]

I think there are three things straight off to say for Miasma over Iceshard Blizzard. It's got double the range, which is awesome. It has more viable targets because even the movement debuff is always handy. It's cheaper, so makes for cheeky 1-dice possibilities or safer 2-dicing. You don't get to try for the -2 to hit nerfs in close combat like you can with Blizzard + Hand, and you can't nerf war machines, which goes against it, but the number of other possible targets probably keeps it more useful in more matchups.

Keep kidding yourself Seredain, you'll be back to iceshards soon enough .

[Ferny]

Yes, my contributions to this tactics log has reduced to taunting .

[English 2000]

Hi Seredain,

Dwellers was indeed IF'd. Otherwise I would have had the scroll out to stop it.

Where I really like Miasma vs Empire is with the Helblaster and Engineer combo that the occasional (ok EVERY) Empire player takes.

The way I read the rules is that if you use the Engineer's ability to reroll the artillery dice you must also use his BS. On turn 1 I dropped him to BS 2 with Miasma leaving my opponent with a difficult choice.

Does he risk firing without the engineer at BS 3, or does he use the engineer for the rerolls and hit with BS 2?

He opted not to use the engineer, rolled a single misfire which halved the number of shots.

14 shots became 7, of which 3 hit so only 3 Reavers died who then passed panic and killed the Helblaster in turn 2.

That single spell had a huge impact on the game because it kept my Reavers alive so that they could kill the helblaster and then a cannon.

Yes, my Frostheart was incredibly lucky to survive 5 cannon shots.

I'm 1-2 with the Swordmaster list.
Game 1) Loss due to horrible magic dice. Best forgotten.
Game 2) Loss: I made lots of rookie mistakes combined with poor spell selection and an unhealthy lack of respect for the Manflayers unit which were used against me very well.
Game 3) Win (finally): I selected proper spells and controlled the moment phase.

I don't plan to change anything for my next game so I'll report back and let you know how it goes.

[thelostcity]

Sorry if you've been asked this before but how important do you find the rank bonus with your knights. The reason I ask is I'm thinking of trying running my knights 3 wide. A slight tipping of the hat to Bretonians but with 3 ranks of fighting I think units of 9 helms (or 7 with 2 chars ) could be quite efficitive. I'm just trying to weigh up if the reduced number of attacks back by the enemy makes up for the point of rank bonus you loose by running them in the traditional form.

Cheers

[John Rainbow]

Sorry if you've been asked this before but how important do you find the rank bonus with your knights. The reason I ask is I'm thinking of trying running my knights 3 wide. A slight tipping of the hat to Bretonians but with 3 ranks of fighting I think units of 9 helms (or 7 with 2 chars ) could be quite efficitive. I'm just trying to weigh up if the reduced number of attacks back by the enemy makes up for the point of rank bonus you loose by running them in the traditional form.

Cheers

Also remember that having 2 ranks of 5 allows you to 'disrupt' the enemy formation.

[thelostcity]

I thought disruption required 2 full ranks at the end of combat. How often would your knights survive the rounds leading to combat and the first round of combat without loosing a single model?

This may be a case of me reducing the effective combat punch (if this disruptive effect comes into play more often than I think it would) for less attrition on the knights, please note I'm still quite new to this and have not played a huge amount of games, which is why I'm asking.

Edit, doesn't most things you want to hit with this have more than 2 ranks as well so they won't be disrupted?

[English 2000]

If you have 2+ ranks of 5 or more you disrupt no matter how many ranks they have.

You need to have more ranks to break steadfast.

[Bolt Thrower]

If you have 2+ ranks of 5 or more you disrupt no matter how many ranks they have.

You need to have more ranks to break steadfast.

This is the main difference. Disruption doesn't stop steadfast. It just keeps the ranks from counting towards combat res.

[sutilar]

Looking at your current army list:
I will try this first time tomorrow, but I was thinking about this for a long time to use in your list: Your current shadow Mage level 1, dispell scroll, khaine's ring, elven steed (145).

-With 6 Dragon Princes: Move to charge distance of their target, cast the Ring -succesful cast will upgrade the DP to 5+ Ward Save-. Charge with the unit, cast any shadow spell -succesful cast allows you to change the mage for one big combat tool like the Prince (killing power and tanking skill) or the OTS (Bsb).
Turning the unit from being a useless 'dartboard' (while isn't in close combat) unit to become a mid-range anti-chaff with a dangerous basic threat-range (charge range) which has an enormous close combat potential thanks to magic phase. Succesful character change also allows you to cast the Ring in the same magic phase.
If the enemy takes care of the Shadow Attribute you will need a great magic phase superiority, but this case means that the units improved close combat potential I said above is making a strategical influence not only in the magic phase, but even in opponents movement phase. If the enemy dismiss the Shadow Attribute, it is too easy!

-With 6 Silver Helms...

-With the Big Bus...

-I also think there is a big difference about purpose and targets between a Soul Quench cast from a slow DeathStar (Archmage+SM) and a Soul Quench cast from an elven steed.

Too enthusiastic with White Lions --> Dragon Prince drastic change

[Galharen]

What's your actual roster Seredain?

[Leevoth]

Considering to run a similar list to what's discussed in this thread.

My current mock up

Lord(s)
Archmage, lvl 4 high mage
Book of hoeth, Ironcurse Icon, Shrieking blade, Talisman of endurance .... 320 pts

Heroes

Mage, lvl 2, lore not decided .. shadow, heavens or beasts
Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Protection ... 160 pts

Noble
BSB, Dragon Armor, Steed w/barding, Enchanted shield, Sword of Might ... 145 pts

Core

10 Archers, musician ... 110 pts

5 Ellyrian Reavers, musician ... 105 pts

9 Silver helms, full command, shields ... 237 pts

Special:

19 Sword masters, full command, banner of the world dragon ... 327 pts

Rare:

2 RBT ... 140 pts

2 Great Eagle ... 100 pts

10 Sisters of Avelorn, high sister ... 150 pts

Total of 1794

How does it look? Input appriciated

[English 2000]

I played game 4 with my Swordmaster list and I'm happy to report a second win with this list.

I was up against a full on Orc Gunline. Boring but according to internet wisdom it's the power list for Orcs. I don't think that's remotely true but who am I to disagree with the Internet

It came complete with a Savage Orc Big Un horde with bows, a block of Night Goblin archers, 2 rock lobbas, 2 doom divers and a Spear Chukka. This game played out a bit like my win against the Empire. I hung back and let my support elements win the game for me.

My 2 units of Reavers, Shadow Warriors and Frostheart took out the war machines and the pump wagon guarding it.

My archers and pair of RBT's killed the Manger Squig (I hate those things) and then started putting shots into the orcs.

Flames of the Phoenix took out 21 of 28 Night Goblins in one casting so my shooting changed target to finish them off.

By the end of turn 4 he needed to do something drastic to have any chance of winning (ie advance to engage my lions and Swordmasters with his savages, his only remaining unit) but his Shaman Lord Cacaded and got sucked into the Realm of Chaos.

Clearly Gork was angry at such un-orcy tactics and withdrew his protection from the Shaman. At that point he conceded the game.

I lost 2 units of 5 Reavers for all 5 war machines, 34 Night Goblins, a Pump Wagon, Mangler Squig a Level 2 Night Goblin Shaman, and a Level 4 Savage Orc Shaman.
My Silver Helms with BSB, White Lions and Swordmasters never saw combat.

I consistently had 2-4 boosts to my ward on the Swordmasters. After the 2 initial losses I feel that I have figured out spell selection and casting order with this guy.

My support mage had shadow again, sorry Seredain I really don't think Heavens compares as a support Lore. You made some compelling arguments but the range and versatility of Miasma are just too good. This game the threat of reducing his strength by D3 made him even less willing to engage me in close combat.

What I'm not liking is the fact that my games seem to be turning into Mexican stand offs where people won't engage me because my wards are so good, but I can't push up because I still need those combo charges to win quickly and avoid being ground down. Combo charges that are hard to get because I don't have the punch with my cavalry to turn a flank.

I have mixed feelings about the High Magic. Drain magic and Apotheosis aren't doing much other than boosting my ward so it's hard to get Hand of Glory and Flames through because dice are saved for them.

I need more play testing before I make a final judgment and I have yet to face anyone with a rush list.
Cagey Dark Elves, and 3 games against mostly stand and shoot opponents (Dogs of War, Empire and Orc Gunline) haven't lead to much combat. Plus 4 games really isn't enough to evaluate a list.

Hopefully next game will be against someone more aggressive so I can start getting a feel for these Swordmasters in combat.

[English 2000]

Game 5 with my Swordmaster list in the bag and it was a win against Daemons. 3-2 now.

My silver Helms killed some Khorne Flesh Hounds, before being torn apart by the Bloodthirster. The rest of the army with the exception of the Frostheart and Swordmasters with BOTWD died.

Between them they took out 5 flamers, a block of Bloodletters with Herald, A block of Plaguebearers with Herald, a block of Horrors with herald and a Bloodthirster. Essentially they took on and defeated an entire army.

This brings up an interesting discussion. On one hand I think that the BOTWD is just utterly broken against Daemons, but on the other hand I would have been utterly smashed without it. And his list was far from a power list.

I can't imagine facing a power Daemon list without that banner. It seems as though the banner is the equaliser, though I say this having only one game in 8th against DoC so take that with a grain of salt.

What have your experiences been against Daemons? Have you basically just used the Banner unit to smash through the army while everything else dies like I did?

Have any of you lost to Daemons while using the Banner? If so, what happened?

[NexS]

I am terribly biassed, but Chaos Warriors and Daemons are absolutely the most overpowered armies in the game. Anything that provides them with a loss is OK by me.
Good work!!

[SpellArcher]

It seems as though the banner is the equaliser

Furion made this point when the HE book came out and the internet went berserk about World Dragon, sounds about right to me.

[Francis]

I am terribly biassed, but Chaos Warriors and Daemons are absolutely the most overpowered armies in the game. Anything that provides them with a loss is OK by me.
Good work!!

Amen to that.

I also agree with SA, people complain too much and if you suddenly face an army without any magic attacks you just tossed 50p down the drains (I know about misscast protection but still).

The daemon player also didn't need to engage the Swordmasters with his entire army and he would have gone home with a win. It's all about picking your battles.

[English 2000]

I am terribly biassed, but Chaos Warriors and Daemons are absolutely the most overpowered armies in the game. Anything that provides them with a loss is OK by me.
Good work!!

Amen to that.

I also agree with SA, people complain too much and if you suddenly face an army without any magic attacks you just tossed 50p down the drains (I know about misscast protection but still).

The daemon player also didn't need to engage the Swordmasters with his entire army and he would have gone home with a win. It's all about picking your battles.

In his defense Walk Between Worlds let me put my Swordmasters wherever I wanted so he couldn't avoid the Banner unit.

Turn 6 I was ahead by just over 100 vps so he had to charge my Frostheart and kill it for the win. It held and I flanked the Bloodthirster for an even bigger win.

Without that banner unit I would have killed a unit of 5 Fleshhounds and maybe 1 infantry block.

I consider myself an above average player, but I can't see how elves beat daemons without the banner, especially the power Daemon lists. It makes me think that during playtesting the elves got mauled so badly that they made the Banner rules rules up to equalise things.

Maybe a tailored list, but I never know who I'm going to face so I bring all comers.

[Sinsigel]

Just a quick question about 6-model DP unit in your list, Seredain.
Are you sure you can give star lance to DP champion?
It has been discussed quite extensively, but it is very likely that you can't
since star lance is for mounted 'character' only while drakemaster technically isn't character.

[NexS]

Just a quick question about 6-model DP unit in your list, Seredain.
Are you sure you can give star lance to DP champion?
It has been discussed quite extensively, but it is very likely that you can't
since star lance is for mounted 'character' only while drakemaster technically isn't character.

The book says you can give the Dragon Prince champion both magic weapon and magic armour if you wish

[Stormie]

No, that's not what he means. By RAW a Drakemaster can't have the Star Lance- but many groups allow it anyway, so it's only an issue if any opponents make it one.

[Seredain]

Sinsigel,

Unfortunately, the simple answer is 'no', I'm not sure you can put the Star Lance on the drakemaster. RAW it's very clear you can't, though in friendly games you could expect people not to make a fuss (about to the same extent as they'd probably call douche if you tried to take Shadow Armour + heavy/dragon armour.

However (and it's a big however), not fielding a list that's truly all-comers leaves me with a dis-satisfaction that gnaws away at me constantly until I fix it. And I must say, you couldn't call your army all-comers if any RAW opponent told you, quite correctly, that the Star Lance on your champion was illegal. You would start saying 'yeah but..'; they'd simply ask you to read the item description, and you'd be stuffed.

So, the lovely lance is off the drakemaster. I've put it on the BSB instead (Star Lance, Enchanted Shield, Other Trickster's Shard, Dragon Armour, Barded Steed), for the uber-chargy bus. Drakemaster sticks with the Charmed Shield and I bump the firebows back from 6 to 8.

Annoying? Yes. But against daemon prince WoC, splitting the characters is a good idea anyway, so I'll still have access to two anti-armour weapons in two of my cavalry units. And the two extra flaming shots helps against chimeras. Against everything else, the bus now has 8 Str7 ASF attacks on the charge with the benefit of OTS. This, at least, is something I wouldn't have access to if the star lance were on my drakemaster so, in this sense, the LanceBSB perhaps provides a little more tactical flexibility.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

I find that "interpretation" rather picky (to put it mildly). Is there any precedence saying that a champion of any kind, if allowed to take a magic item to a certain point allowance, cannot take it because it is reserved for heroes/lords?

[Teledor]

Doesn't the ironcurse icon language have a similar reference to character and his unit receiving the ward save? champions have been accepted as being able to equip as well, no?

If that's the case, that champions can equip the ironcurse icon, then I don't see how or why a drake master couldn't equip the Starlance. Just seems inconsistent in the application of
"character".