The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1321 Post by Seredain »

Big Bus High Elves vs Herobus Bretonnians - 2400

So, let us step a little back in time. I'm still fielding the big bus list with the Star Lance BSB, mini-unit of 10 white lions, 2 repeaters, 18 archers and 2 units of 5 sisters. I was looking at a big unit of knights errant with HKB lord (1+rr), two tank heroes, a BSB and a Level 4 Heavens with Crown of Command, all in one unit. Another lesser bus was made of Realm Knights with a couple more characters, after which 3 or so small units of knights, a unit of pegasi and two trebuchets.

Deployment

The field was scattered with terrain bits and bobs but, apart from a large wood in the middle of the field, most of these were fairly unobtrusive. A ruined building protect my left flank and a non-ruined building did the same for my opponent. Since the scenario was meeting engagement, I set-up an enveloping move on my right and deployed to hold on the left, relying on my shooting and magic to burn away some knights before mobbing them to death from a couple of angles. Obviously, in this context, the only thing I could hit the huge hero bus with was my own helm bus, bringing in the swordmasters for support.

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Early Game

I won first turn because my opponent was praying, and I ran into the first problem with double High Magic. You see, the excellent spell selection the lore offers is excellent because it offers you useful tools against any army. The problem is that not all of those tools are useful against every army, but if you've only got High spells, you have to make do with the most useful spells and a hail of close-range magic missiles. In this game my primary magic strategy involved Unforging, movement-boosting magic and a hail of Str 4 magic missiles. Turn 1, I naturally had very little to do with all those missiles. Fortunately, I had Unforging to throw at the Bret lord, and I managed a wound, albeit without destroying any items on a 2+ (damn). My WBW put one of my eagles within charge range of a trebuchet, all good. Then things got even when, Bret Turn 1 my opponent brought forward his big knight buses and kicked off his excellent anti-flyer magic phase. Too many dice to stop, and the eagle threatening the treb was killed off. But that was ok because my opponent had miscast on 3 dice and blown his level 4’s head off, putting another wound on his general and most of his heroes (although he warded a couple).

This made my opponent deeply upset (as well it might). So while I was moving my units about he dejectedly explained to me how, if his mage was alive, all he really needed to do to win was drop a comet. But I was happily chuckling to myself that, without a caster, these humans were toast. Then, after my Turn 1 movement phase – my units circling to envelope the tight-knit Bretonnian army, something changed in the air. My opponent wasn’t speaking any more and his hand was trembling. Adrenaline. Uhoh, thinks I… What have I forgotten?

Image
Early moves and an exploding Prophetess

I’d made some decent moves this turn. The Brets had remained quite static while their level 4 caught up (and exploded), so I’d got a volley off for free and already begun to envelope the right flank. If the Brets wanted to bomb toward my infantry line, I would flank them. Until they made any such move, I would shoot them, shield my big elite unit with High Magic, finish their general off, close and strike. That eagle and the chariot were closing in for some new charges against the trebuchets, and frankly everything looked peachy. So what was my opponent so excited about? I looked over at the 15- strong silver helm bus. It stood within sight of the Bretonnian Herobus, but it was miles away… Um... Unless my opponent had that 'extra dice on his first charge' virtue, maybe?

OH. SHIT.

Throwing a load of dice at Walk Between Worlds to get my last eagle in the way did no good – dispelled. Brets' turn now, and my opponent declares the charge. It’s still only a 50/50 whether or not he gets in and… he does. His lord, still only on one wound, challenges. My prince proudly accepts, but only hits twice on 3+rr and then fails to get a wound through his enemy’s 5+ rr armour save. No! I get Killing Blow'd and the silver helms, who can’t get wounds through the wall of armour in the front rank, are in turn hit by all those charging lances (the real killer) and broken. They get away, but the BSB falls off his horse and dies, and next turn the unit fails to rally on Ld 9 and runs off the board.

Image


Holy crap. My furious response to this disaster was to open up on the Bretonnian general's unit with everything I had and avenge my prince. Arrows and Magic missiles now start grinding knights down. All of my power dice fly at Arcane Unforging for that last wound on the Bret lord… Dispelled. Two single bolts from the repeaters fly at the flank of the front rank of the big bus (including the lord and 2 heros): one hit… and I roll 1 to wound. Gagh!


Image

Staying Alive

Buying myself time for the shooting to take effect, the chariot moves up into the teeth of the big bus to act as an impromptu eagle. My opponent doesn’t fancy this – the air is too hot with bolts and arrows – so he reforms the big bus and makes a beeline for his back line. With the way cleared, my light units now come into the game. The chariot flank charges the Pegasus knights and eventually breaks them, runs them down and overruns into a small knight unit – which it then beats and breaks. My silver helms chase a small lance off and redirect into a dual charge with the white lions which persuades my opponent to run his second bus away too. One of my sister units receives a charge from another small knight unit – charging through the central wood and suffering from fire on the way in, and actually beats it when it rubber lances and breaks.

All this sounds great, but it isn’t, because on Turn 4, long after my archmage had gone AWOL on his mission to stay within 24” of the Bret lord and cast Arcane Unforging every turn, the unprotected swordmasters get hammered by 2 treb shots and cease to be as an effective standing unit (although they hold their ground and survive the game). The white lions get into combat with the second bus when it rallies, but are ground out in 2 rounds – chiefly by the Bret BSB whom my opponent had cleverly switched into this new unit. It was a little unlucky to lose all 10 elves in only 2 rounds against non-charging knights, but a unit of 10 lions suffers more from bad first rounds than other units, since they cripple its fighting power. In a tough combat like this, without the reliability of getting a combat buff off, the lions wilted. Steadily, all of the fleeing small knight units on the flanks rallied. The nail in the coffin was magic. Two Arcane Unforgings make it through the Bretonnians’ magic defence and strike the Bretonnian general: the first one, I roll a 1 to wound. The second one, my opponent makes his ward save.

That's the last shot on Turn 6. In my head, I sink to my knees, hold my hands up to the heavens and cry out ”WHHHHHHYYYYYY?!” like Sean Connery in First Knight after his wife's pulled Lancelot.


Image
The High Elves push back - just not hard enough.

Game to Brets.

Good things

Once the smoke had cleared, I was genuinely amazed that this army of knights hadn’t just rammed its face into my deployment zone once my bus had run off the table, and destroyed me. As it was, my various light units carried just enough combined weight to win local victories and, with overruns, hem my opponent’s units in. Having enough missile power (and the swords in close contention, still at full strength), to force my opponent to turn his unstoppable bus around and leg it was pretty satisfying. Having failed to run down enough of those fleeing units, and then seeing them all rally, was frustrating. Still, having unexpectedly (if foolishly) lost my star unit on Turn 2, things could have been much, much worse.

Bad things

Er… Yeah. If, like me, you don’t play Brets very often (that’s twice now in 8th), you’ve really got to remember about their ‘roll an extra d6’ charge virtue. That can be a bit of a deal breaker.

Secondly, and more striking to the way that the army played, was that I didn’t have enough genuine threat units in the army to win, and press, valuable victories when things were going wrong on the right flank. The practical truth was that this list wasn’t really MMU combined arms, as the old list was, it was a Helm Bus+Swordmaster Block army with a load of MSU support units. Units of 5 sisters, for example, could act as little more than deployment drops and walking bows: they are too small (even if I got lucky this game), to double as an emergency combat unit where you need it, and this makes them ineffective for holding ground against a wide range of other light units. This burden is therefore shifted on to other units, making it hard for them to achieve bigger and better things.

Meanwhile, the obvious practical truth for units of 10 White Lions is that, without the re-rolls of the previous book, they don't hit as hard as they used to, but they still die just as fast. if I wanted a unit of white lions that could pose a threat in its own right (with some support), as opposed to act only as a glorified support unit itself, I would have to make it a bit bigger.
As previously discussed, 18 archers were fine as a support unit, but they didn’t give me that big ranked unit to send forward when the enemy was on the run, in this instance leaving the lions all alone. There was a disconnect between my units that made them far less mutually useful than I was comfortable with.

Then we come to magic. It was this game that showed most most clearly the limitations of an all-High magic phase. Firstly, having 2 mages in the swordmasters unit made these valuable troopers reluctant to get into combat (because the level 2 had no ward save). Secondly, because of the lack of combat threat coming from any unit but the swords and helms, my magic had to perform, to a disproportionate degree, as a damage-dealer. High magic’s short range made it, outside of Unforging, unsuitable for this against armoured units and, once my power-house combat units were out of action, it wasn’t able to do much except take out the enemy general. Of course, I got unlucky with Unforging, but it was the absence of either intact decent combat units or a wider selection of decent buff spells that really cost me.

Conclusion

It occurred to me, therefore, that the easiest way to balance out my magic abilities and significantly boost my standing combat power was to consolidate my units slightly (so 2x5 sisters becomes one unit of 8; white lions get boosted to 12), and switch up my 2nd caster to Heavens magic, without the ring, to offer more direct support in the form of either long range damage or excellent combat spells. Iceshard Blizzard, in particular, would allow me an easy doubling-up of combat buffs alongside Hand of Glory. So, yeah you can throw away a game by getting something horribly wrong, but there was plenty to learn here too. It’s not until your best units take damage that you realise how important your secondary units can be.

And so, as per our recent discussions on core balance, infantry and lore selection we get to a revised list and, a couple of months later, another tournament… This one I’ll skip through quickly because it brings us to another list edit which, in effect, continued the consolidation we’ve recently seen.
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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sutilar
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1322 Post by sutilar »

When surprise charging you the KE hero bus did you consider fleeing and redirecting with the chariot for protecting their ass?

I have played once in my life vs Bretts - was with the big bus, 2 RBT, 2x5 SoA, HiHi lores list and I get a very difficult game ended with a draw.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1323 Post by Jimmy »

Thanks for the report Seredain.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1324 Post by RE.Lee »

Great report! Brets are becoming something of a living fossil...
cheers, Lee

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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1325 Post by Stormie »

Ahh, so that’s what happened in that game then… didn’t look like too terrible a loss, just that one bad charge. When I play Bretonnians (and when I played 7th edition Daemons) I would usually sacrifice an Eagle early putting it in front of buses I think might have the extra charge range. I also played Tom’s Brets a while back and he gave the game away by having that virtue in a unit of Errant Knights so he was having to measure the full charge distance of 26” every turn to see if the Knights had to take an impetuous check…
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1326 Post by Seredain »

Jimmy and R.E. - thanks for posting guys.
sutilar wrote:When surprise charging you the KE hero bus did you consider fleeing and redirecting with the chariot for protecting their ass?

I have played once in my life vs Bretts - was with the big bus, 2 RBT, 2x5 SoA, HiHi lores list and I get a very difficult game ended with a draw.
Sutilar,

Fleeing was the very first thing I thought of! I knew I couldn't take this charge and win. However, I was only 8 or 9 inches from the board edge (it looks further on the map). It was, therefore, more likely that I'd lose the unit by running than by holding and hoped my opponent failed his charge (as I say, that was 50/50). Best to stay away from situations like that, really...

Stormie,

Yeah that's a good thing to look out for! Since I was having brain-freeze on this virtue, I wasn't looking out for the signs. You can bet your life I will do from now on. Seems important to get your eagles working early against these Bret armies. Heavens magic can lay them low quickly, so forcing an early T2 decision against the big herobuses may be the best thing to do if it means you actually get to use your eagles.

Now, I'm going to take a quick look at the next couple of games, and a couple more lessons. First up: Warriors of Chaos...

I was fielding:

Prince – Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, Heavy Armour, Shield, Barded Steed – 276
Archmage – Level 4, High Magic, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon – 310

BSB – Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed – 164
Mage – Level 2, Heavens Magic, Dispel Scroll – 145

24 Archers – Musician, Standard – 260
10 Silver Helms – Musician, Standard, Shields – 250
5 Silver Helms – Shields – 115

19 Swordmasters – Bladelord, Standard, Banner of the World Dragon – 317
12 White Lions – Standard, Gleaming Pennant – 171
1 Chariot – 70

8 Sisters – 112
3 Repeater Bolt Throwers – 210
1 Great Eagle – 50
1 Great Eagle – 50

2500 points

My opponent was fielding:

Tzeentch Lord - Great Weapon, 1+ save, 3+ ward (rerolling 1s), Crown of Command, Disc
BSB - 1+ save, 3+ ward, Daemonic Steed
Sorceror - Level 2, Metal, Scroll, Charmed Shield, Disc

21 Nurgle Warriors - Full Command, Halberds, Flaming Banner
5 Marauder Cavalry - Flails
12 Chosen - Full Command, Great Weapons
1 Warshrine
3 Skullcrushers
3 Skullcrushers

Maybe I'm missing out a couple of hound units or something, but that's the gist of it. Lots of threats, all of them on you quickly (except the warriors) and all of them tough.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1327 Post by Seredain »

I'll skip the maps for these 3 games and get onto my two latest games with the re-amended list.

Summary Report: Game 1 - Warriors

A fairly open battlefield here, with a hill in my West corner (which my repeaters couldn't resist), and a tower in the middle of the field, centre right. A large temple stood opposite my shooting hill.

Deployment was tense: in the end, my opponent dropped some skullcrushers facing my right flank, his Nurgle warriors in the centre (I countered with the swordmasters and archers), and everything else in the West. The massive disclord went front and centre of this wing, basically daring me to do something about him. The daemonsteed BSB deployed behind the Western crushers rather than go in them. Opposite all this muscle and iron, I dropped my 12 lions, bolt throwers, eagles and Seredain's silver helms. In hindsight, this was probably a mistake: much better, where possible, to deploy away from roadblocks like this, and get your expensive units killing stuff before trying the face off. But this army was so full of fast threats, most of them opposite my left flank, that at the time I thought it best to oppose them with the only unit who could realistically take it: the bus.

With so few drops, T1 went to the Warriors and my opponent basically bombed his generally right up into my face: charge me or be charged. Chaos magic did nothing (and wouldn't all game - my archmage easily outclassing the Metal sorcerer), and in seconds it was my turn.

Charge: if anything could handle the chaos lord, it was my bus and, perhaps more importantly (and maybe foolishly), I hadn't twigged that this guy was wearing the Crown of Command. In I go. My eagles now play hold up and my shooting and magic opens up. Over the next couple of turns, the cumulative impact of all this was huge. Arcane Unforging and bolts started pinging important wounds and items off character models. Fiery Convocation wiped out a third of the Nurgle warriors. While the white lions are covering the flank of the silver helms, standing across from the chosen, the swordmasters march out against the warriors. Iceshard is dispelled but this makes way for Hand of Glory and Apotheosis. With a 5+ ward and I6, the swordmasters ripped the nurglers to pieces. 5 silver helms ran over 5 maurauder cav at the same time (but took a hammering for their trouble). On the right flank, my 8 sisters roll superbly and kill off two crushers before finally getting run over by the last one.

But the big swing had already happened by the time all this came to pass: Round 1 against the disclord: he bounces my prince with the ward but and throws down a wound. I'm going to lose that fight if this keeps up. Luckily, the Iceshard Blizzard/High magic setup kicks in (this is before the swords engage), and I get to keep healing my prince and throw up HoG for WS9. Second round of combat, I still don't wound but now, hitting on 4s, neither does my opponent. Another win, but this time he fails his Ld9rr break test and I run him down. Next turn, I charge the crushers with the bus. I fluff it and they hold, before the chosen flank me, but my prince kills loads of chosen and magical dominance is still winning me combats: I hold ground long enough to bring in more support. The crushers are ground away so the shrine comes in, but now my shooting is picking off hero models: his sorceror fluffs combat against his 2nd repeater (he kills the first), takes two rounds to finish it and so gets bolted by the last one on my following turn. The wounded BSB goes the same way a turn later. The chosen get rear-charged by the white lions and, alas just after killing my prince, break. My helms run down the last crusher. The warshrine, which flees toward the corner, fails to rally and then gets pushed off by a charge from my BSB on Turn 6. The white lions finish the chosen off and it's game. Except that one skullcrusher over on my right flank, the chaos army is no more.

20-0

Pretty simple really: I got lucky breaking the disclord and discovered that heavy-armour warriors armies do not enjoy getting charged when they're a bit out of position. Shooting and magic together are awesome, and saw my combat units enact devastation against really good enemy fighting units. In future games, I'll need to give myself more time to Unforge the disclord. Getting rid of him is a biggy. Good dice for me, bad dice for my opponent - more to learn against these armies. But my list has the tools. In particular, it was very good to see High and Heavens work so well together: keeping my characters in the fight long enough to make the difference, and boosting the swords incrementally to make such a mess of the Nurgle warriors.

Next up: Nurgle Daemons...
Last edited by Seredain on Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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Stormie
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1328 Post by Stormie »

Good win there, I think WoC are a good match for High Elves as long as they don't have an excessive amount of chariots. Good demonstration of why Iceshard Blizzard is such a good spell, especially against lone nearly-unstoppable charaters that take break tests...
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1329 Post by Seredain »

Stormie wrote:Good win there, I think WoC are a good match for High Elves as long as they don't have an excessive amount of chariots. Good demonstration of why Iceshard Blizzard is such a good spell, especially against lone nearly-unstoppable charaters that take break tests...
Cheers Stormie.

Yeah, Iceshard Blizzard is great. People never like it going off, so even if they dispel it every turn, it reliably sucks up dispel dice for bigger spells or else free ward saves (and the odd initiative bonus) for the swords. Having that extra chance to hit Comet and Chain Lightning (both great against chariot lists) is awesome too.

I think you're right about our strengths against Warriors. We and Lizards are the only armies capable of getting rid of those wards with Unforging. We can easily get flaming shots and close combat attacks for dealing with chimeras and the like, we always win the chaff war and our elite infantry are just amazing with access to a few decent buffs or just +2 ward save.

These mega-ward heroes are hard to shift, though - I got lucky here. But after that, High Elf strengths told and everything went just about perfectly.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1330 Post by Jimmy »

Thanks for the summary Seredain. It's certainly battle logs like yours that inspire me and I can't wait to get back to the High Elves when the time comes.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1331 Post by SpellArcher »

Another reason to focus on eagles vs Bretts is the Falcon Horn. In my game against the same opponent I spotted the long charge threat but ran into the Horn and it cost me my Treekin when I couldn't throw the planned eagle in the way of his Deathstar.

Amit's list looks a bit odd to me. Now he's better than I am but I always had the impression that Warriors lists work better with a fair bit of magic because of the relative lack of shooting. Not to mention the infantry make it a little slow. He's got great characters (no other Cavalry character survives rolling a 1 on his Ward save against Waywatchers!) and of course double Schoolcrushers but not a lot of chaff either.

As for the game, you did get a bit lucky with the Disclord but in general your units seemed to chop his up very efficiently. I was actually playing a vaguely similar list on the table next to you two and as I've mentioned, an infantry/MI combo-charge saw off the Warriors and the cavalry bus ran over the 'crushers. Again, partly because a lvl4 was forcing things through against a level 2.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1332 Post by Seredain »

I haven't run into the Falcon Horn yet... another thing to add to the tremendous list of Things I Never Heard of Before.

This Chaos list was interesting. The magic phase actually had more threat than the lone level 2 would suggest, because there were enough characters and unit champions gathered around the shrine that I really didn't want it ever going off. Of course, since I was toting a Level 4 with Book of Hoeth and a scroll, I'm pretty sure it never did. By contrast, my magic and shooting was dominant to the point where it made all of my combats significantly easier. The warriors were a case in point: Convocation burns a rank off them; then the following turn my opponent has to choose between -1 to hit or Hand of Glory buffing my initiative. Neither is good. After that, I pip a 1 dice Apotheosis for an extra ward save (I don't recall fear making any difference - I may have healed the prince this turn), and that combat is only going one way.

I don't think the Nurgle warriors are a bad idea, though. The problem with armies of small units like this is, once you've got the right kind of attacks going into them, they lack staying power. Having a boatload of Str5 attacks being hit on 5 or 6 is pretty solid backup. And they're core!

On balance, I think this is one of those armies that wins or loses the game by Turn 3. If it gets everything in quickly, it should run over a lot of stuff. If it gets caught on the hop by things which can break the armour, though (subject to the unkillable disclord getting in the way), it can go bad. In particular, if magic is helping your elves win straight-up fights, things can steamroll pretty quickly. Good dice vs bad dice sealed the deal on this occasion.
Jimmy wrote:Thanks for the summary Seredain. It's certainly battle logs like yours that inspire me and I can't wait to get back to the High Elves when the time comes.
Thanks Jimmy - that's very kind of you.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1333 Post by SpellArcher »

As you can imagine Mr S, the Horn stops flying movement for a turn. Very nifty against certain opponents.

Don't get me wrong, I like Chaos Warriors. But this army has very little shooting, not much ranged threat from the magic, fewer fast units than the chariot/chimera lists. In short it doesn't seem to have enough force projection to me. I've been having similar problems running an M5 army with a smattering of faster units and no dominant magic or shooting phase. Your opponents dictate the game.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1334 Post by Ferny »

Seredain - I've been pondering how different HE builds match up against eachother. Solid ones I've seen so far are herobus variants (like yours and Curu), MSU (Swordmaster), monster mash/monsters and RBT (Malossar, John Rainbow and more recently Curu), and elite infantry centric (Tethlis, and the style I play).

Deployment and target selection for combats are I think a more critical part of the game for cavbus and monster mash armies, whereas I feel the infantry set-up which Tethlis and I are rocking is more forgiving in that respect. I know its difficult to comment in abstract and without play-testing, but in principle I was wondering what match-ups you'd be looking for against these types of list?

2x5 reaver core
2x5 shelms core
18ish archer core
21-25 PG w/razor
21-28 WL w/BotWD
6-10 Sisters
1 Frostheart
1 Archmage w/BoH, Crown of 2++ (Shadow/Life/High)
1 Lv1/2 mage w/dispel, ring of fury (Heavens/Beasts/High)
1 BSB (reaver, pot of strength)
2xRBT (Tethlis runs these at 2500 and slightly smaller elite infantry units than me -I run 2400 without RBT and instead bulk up elite infantry)

I was theoryhammering it whilst swimming lengths just now and obvious targets (list wise) don't present themselves to me.

I don't know who would win the chaff war - I suspect both sides would lose tbh! The Swordmasters would do well against the WL and poorly (I think) against the PG so that match up seems obvious enough - its just a question of who pulls it off better in the game.

But critically, I can't see the obvious target(s) for the helmbus, or for that matter the helms with characters loose. The WL block would I think eat the helmbus/characters whilst being protected from prince and (if star lance) BSB. While the PG don't present such a hard damage output they would absorb fully half of the kills you'd expect to make and risk a grinding match (and hitting on re-rollable 3's, wounding on 3's then 4+ AS isn't great for heavy cav, albeit the heroes would absorb some of the attacks). The pheonix might be a good target unit for your characters, but has good mobility so might be able to avoid the charge. Without actually playing the match out, any initial thoughts on where you'd want to be concentrating this force?
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1335 Post by sutilar »

Hey there Seredain,

This week I had a serious problem facing Lvl 4 Slann Mage Priest with lore of life (dwellers, +4R...) with your current list. 20 Temple Guard with SM Priest went into a centrally positioned building; bringing L9 rr to every unit within 12 UM - a 40 Saurus Warriors horde keeping safe his left flank, while his heavy cavalry held the ground in his right flank - and getting a very long dwellers range (due to measuring from the building borders).
A turn two 6 diced double six dwellers killed the archmage and 17 archers, obligating me to charge the saurus horde from the flank with 12 WL + He. Mage for saving the SM from them - the 10 wide horde had an excessive frontal to redirect with a Great Eagle -. This provocated an every turn +4R buff to the saurus horde.

I defeated his right flank (5 Cold One Riders and 12 core skink) with the Tiranoc Chariot and 10 Silver Helms while charging his left flank salamanders with the 5 Silver Helms + both characters.
His central saurus infantry was steadfast in his totally all the match. Can you give me some advice about playing against L9 rr + building combo and Lvl 4 Lore of life?

Thanks for reading
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=68315&p=897288#p897288
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1336 Post by SpellArcher »

Rules Question...does Flaming spell damage re-roll to wound models in a building?

If so, Convocation looks like a must-dispel here, helping your other magic out.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1337 Post by Ferny »

SpellArcher wrote:Rules Question...does Flaming spell damage re-roll to wound models in a building?
Pretty sure it does.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1338 Post by Seredain »

Ferny,

I've wondered now and then about how my army would play against other High Elves. The thing is, no-one else in my gaming group(s) plays them - although Mallas has some elves, he's fixated on his new lizards. In terms of match-ups, I think it's a bit of give and take for me. Frost phoenixes strike me as worrisome, but they are also visible, and wouldn't like getting shot at. Nor, I suspect, would they enjoy sticking my helm bus in place: the prince wounds on 4s, the bird re-rolls its ward saves, it can't stomp me and I have a static 2 combat res. The bird would be good at stomping my elite infantry, though, and surviving my return attacks. Not good. As for enemy infantry, I'd easily be most worried about phoenix guard, because they're perfectly designed for fighting other elves. This is a unit I'd look to redirect, magic, and ultimately tackle with a large core unit (since the ward save doesn't care about strength, keeping the advantages that ASF gives you is more important). Swordmasters would only work in a flank, I think, unless my High magic phase proved dominant (possible, but less likely against other Book of Hoeth+scroll elves). White lions would be a disaster.

There are, however, good things for me. Knights are good against elven arrows. High magic, with its boosts to movement, initiative and skill ensure a typically elven advantage even against other elves. Against the kind of list you're discussing, however, I think my chief advantage is in the shooting phase. Phoenix armies have fewer repeaters than me, and reaver-heavy armies are not as good at bring their missile power to bear on vulnerable targets. Typically they have fewer archers than me but, just as importantly, I have the armour to keep units like reavers away from my most vulnerable troops.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, of course. As and when I come across High Elves (and on the tournament scene, I expect to be running into an uber Banner Cavbus sooner or later), I'll be paying particular attention.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1339 Post by Seredain »

Sutilar, I've had a little think about your problem over the past few days. I come up against slanns very often, so it was a useful chance to ruminate on this difficult problem...

The Toad in the House

There’s no other way to look at it: having a life slann sat in a building right infront of you is an absolute nightmare to deal with, because he’s got 360 degree vision, a much wider footprint with which to measure spell range, and probably a hard as nails temple guard unit with him probably toting regeneration. There are, however, ways you can (partly) exploit or remedy the situation.

(1) Occupy weak points with other terrain. Obviously you don’t get to deploy your opponent’s building if he rolls one. You do, however, get to place your own terrain pieces, and it’s very unlikely that your opponent will roll a house first time. If you’re really worried about your opponent dropping a house in a particular part of the board, then (for me it’s centre-left or centre-right – I always have trouble when lizzies start swarming around these things and choke up a flanking-point by staying safe from my shooting), place something else there instead.

(2) Deploy valuable targets away from the building and just avoid it. For something like cavalry, this is doable, as you can crash into a far-flung flank before working your way inwards from one successive combat to another (it’s much easier to win overruns when you’re moving laterally through an enemy battle-line). If you’re in combat most of the time, you’re not exposed to Dwellers. Units like that saurus horde look intimidating at first, but after a volley or two and a cavalry charge, they wilt quickly, and they don't have the punch to stop your knights grinding them down, and staying safe while they do so (certainly, the temple guard won't be in a position to counter-attack).

Obviously, for the high swordmaster unit, however, going wide often isn’t a feasible plan – infantry will probably just get stuck away from the action – especially if your opponent knows what he’s doing and either has loads of skinks or else forces you to play in range of the toad to pick up any serious points. Even the swords, however will want to get into combat quickly to avoid Dwellers – it’s your best defence where your opponent is chucking 6 dice every turn (see below).

(3) Use your own magic. I’m pretty sure that yes, Fiery Convocation re-rolls wounds against models in buildings, so it’s a very good way of burning out a bodyguard. Depending on your opponent’s list, however, this won’t often be a good solution to the toad. The lizardmen are the only army (currently) to get access to 2 dispel scrolls. Since they have cheap level 1 casters, they’re likely to take advantage of this. They also will often get to re-roll one failed dispel attempt per phase. You therefore give them a significant helping hand by attempting to cast a few large spells rather than many small ones in your own magic phase (because a single scroll eats most of your dice, rather than one or two when you’re casting cheap spells). You could go for irresistible force, of course, but I don’t think it’s worth the risk to kill a few guard. One spell that is worth taking is Unforging. Not only is the most reliable way of forcing those scrolls out early (opening up your opponent’s defence so you can buff whatever you need to that’s assaulting the building), it can also be used to get rid of the slann’s channelling staff. If he’s channelling 3 times per phase, that’s a big deal.

(4) Flaming arrows are more reliable and, since sisters hit on 2’s normally, they can still hit respectably enough in spite of the penalties to do real damage to a garrison when re-rolling wounds (especially with magic support from spells like Hand of Glory).

(5) Flaming close combat attacks (you’re sensing a theme) are your best follow-up. I use (now) a unit of 15 white lions with champion and flaming standard, ever since I came across too many regenerating beasts for me to handle (see below). Barring appalling Hit rolls, these guys will tear up temple guard in a building like they’re children. Deploy this unit opposite a building whenever you see it heavily impacting the game.

(6) I have a feeling, though you’d need to confirm it by looking at the rules, that characters are automatically included in the 10 models which must fight in a building combat. If this is the case, then there’s nothing stopping you putting a load of attacks into the toad and assassinating him. 4+ wards are tricky, but people fail them. Personally I don’t like this solution while there’s a bodyguard – your unit won’t last long – but it’s something to bear in mind if you’re re-rolling failed wounds with 11 Str 6 attacks.

(7) Finally, think about what’s going on outside the house. I know people who start their slann off with skink skirmishers – and it’s possible your house-camping opponents will do the same, but if your guy occupies the building with temple guard, this will significantly weaken that section of his line, because you can march right up into the teeth of neighbouring lizard units without worrying about a counter-attack from your opponent's most powerful infantry. As an alternative to attacking the building directly, then (or as part of the plan), you could concentrate your own forces around it and kill everything that’s close. If your opponent’s elite infantry are trapped in the building, they can do nothing about it (especially if you use an eagle or two to block off exit points), so local superiority should be easy to achieve. Even if you don’t swarm the area like this, it is nonetheless a good idea to get your swords into combat quickly (assuming they can’t achieve anything by staying away from it). In this instance, running up straight past the building is a good idea, as you only have one flank to protect from counter-attacks, easily covered by your knights. It also provides natural cover from units like skinks. One proviso: watch out for ambushing salamanders popping their heads out and flaming you. Smaller attacking units, like 6 helms 2x3 with standard, can run over sallies nicely. Use them to cover your advance.

(8) The obvious one: get into the building first. If your opponent is using Life and the building is more or less equidistant between your forces, you should have an advantage in the movement phase: you're M5, and you have the Hand of Glory/Walk Between Worlds double up available. Get into the building with a decent infantry unit and deny it to your enemy.

In the end, you have to look at the field and play it as best you can. But yeah, the house toad sucks. Hope this helps!


Nurgle Daemons R Us

I mentioned that I’d switched up my list (again) to include a larger unit of white lions toting the flaming banner. This was because of my first two tournament experiences of 8th daemons, unsurprisingly both Nurgle armies and, even less surprisingly once you’ve familiarised yourself with the rules, ramjam full of nurgle beasts.

Both lists were basically the same: Papa Nurgle (the first lore of Death, the second lore of Nurgle), a big block of plaguebearers, a herald bunker, some chaff (always featuring a couple of single nurgle beasts), two skullcannons (what a travesty of unit design they are) and a big block of 8-10 beasts.

Game 2 – Nurgle Daemons 1

I decided that my BotWD swords were likely to be my real killers, so I decided to get into combat with the beasts with the helm bus (which could score wounds and shrug off str4 attacks reasonably well), and use my swordmasters and shooting to chew through everything else except the cannons, which I’d pretty much have to ignore – a tiranoc chariot being too easily targeted to survive one, and 5 helms being too weak to kill it in combat without some serious magical assistance. This would have been a good plan, except my opponent was completely unwilling to move out of his deployment zone with anything. He wasn’t going to do well in the tournament this way – all of my decent cannon targets are cheap – but in any case he told me on Turn 2 that he wasn’t moving, and he was grinning, so I figured he meant it and went at him instead. The problem with this wasn’t that I was afraid of combat – I was fine with it – but that he was able to preserve his furies by hiding them behind a building in his deployment zone. As a result, he was free to hop them over the building and chaff up my swordmasters without me being able to do anything about it (I didn’t have Comet). So, I switched up my weapons’ roles: swordmasters would spend 3 turns killing 2 units of furies and a beast (yay?), while my magic and shooting laid into the plague bearers. And boy did it: Fiery Convocation, arrows and bolt throwers cleaned them up completely and, on the last turn, my repeaters finished the job by bolting the unit’s herald in the face. Fantastic.

That was the end of the good news. Firstly, my helm bus couldn’t kill the beasts block quick enough to seriously threaten them by winning big combats. Partly, this was because my opponent regenerated like a boss, but it was also because these daemons can all make and accept challenges! Of course they can! Eventually I charged them in the flank with the swordmasters (naturally, they count has having no flanks – which is nice), but I fluffed my rolls and then the game was over. Apotheosis kept my BSB alive, so deserves an honourable mention. As does the Dawnstone, which kept my prince alive against Papa Nurgle on the last turn: he finally got in, I was on 6’s to save 3 wounds and made one on the re-roll. Phew.

Dishonourable Mention Number 1 goes to the 12 white lions (gleaming pennant) I was fielding. They assaulted the building in the daemon backline, which carried 6 horrors and a Tzeentch herald who’d recently miscast himself down to one wound. I literally rolled 7 1’s to wound. Enemy unit escapes next turn, nil points. Ugh. Mental note made that flaming attacks would have helped here.

Dishonourable Mention Number 2 goes to me, for putting my Heavens mage behind the hill, thinking him safe, then watching with dull-eyed bemusement as my opponent simply rolls a cannonball into him through one of the repeaters up on the hill. Oh dear me. I did mention I was hungover, right? You see, I’d been out the night before on ‘Hell Yes we’re qualified!’ drinks, and I’d gotten to bed (i.e. someone else’s sofa) at 4.30am. I woke up that morning with the headache from hell, a massive tear down the front of my shirt and absolutely no idea why. Yes I was still wearing the shirt.

In the end, I got a draw and made a load of notes in my head on what everything in the daemon army did. And I got to test it out straight away in Game 3.
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Ferny
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1340 Post by Ferny »

Seredain wrote:Ferny,

I've wondered now and then about how my army would play against other High Elves. The thing is, no-one else in my gaming group(s) plays them - although Mallas has some elves, he's fixated on his new lizards. In terms of match-ups, I think it's a bit of give and take for me. Frost phoenixes strike me as worrisome, but they are also visible, and wouldn't like getting shot at. Nor, I suspect, would they enjoy sticking my helm bus in place: the prince wounds on 4s, the bird re-rolls its ward saves, it can't stomp me and I have a static 2 combat res. The bird would be good at stomping my elite infantry, though, and surviving my return attacks. Not good. As for enemy infantry, I'd easily be most worried about phoenix guard, because they're perfectly designed for fighting other elves. This is a unit I'd look to redirect, magic, and ultimately tackle with a large core unit (since the ward save doesn't care about strength, keeping the advantages that ASF gives you is more important). Swordmasters would only work in a flank, I think, unless my High magic phase proved dominant (possible, but less likely against other Book of Hoeth+scroll elves). White lions would be a disaster.

There are, however, good things for me. Knights are good against elven arrows. High magic, with its boosts to movement, initiative and skill ensure a typically elven advantage even against other elves. Against the kind of list you're discussing, however, I think my chief advantage is in the shooting phase. Phoenix armies have fewer repeaters than me, and reaver-heavy armies are not as good at bring their missile power to bear on vulnerable targets. Typically they have fewer archers than me but, just as importantly, I have the armour to keep units like reavers away from my most vulnerable troops.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, of course. As and when I come across High Elves (and on the tournament scene, I expect to be running into an uber Banner Cavbus sooner or later), I'll be paying particular attention.
Actually, that's a point - your RBTs would chew threw reaver knights like butter (and have a decent go at silver helms once they're done). But they can't shoot at everything so to a certain extent its chaff or pheonix. That said, with so many core points pumped into silver helms I think your list is relatively low on chaff, and a combination of bows, reaver bow, sisters and ring of fury ought (hopefully) to deal with eagles and chariot. So maybe I was right first time and it would be lose-lose on the chaff front?

I'd be very tempted to challenge you to a civil war clash if you fancied trying it out (although it wouldn't really prove any puddings as I've not been playing long) but I'm quite tied up with stuff at the moment and I'm not sure how easily I could get myself down to London in the immediate future. Looking at the blood and glory threat I imagine you'll face other high elves soon enough, although the bus approach seems to be the more popular from what I gather?
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1341 Post by SpellArcher »

Seredain wrote: Depending on your opponent’s list, however, this won’t often be a good solution to the toad. The lizardmen are the only army (currently) to get access to 2 dispel scrolls.
Bretonnians!

:)

But as far as Toad Hall goes you are of course right Mr S. Difference between the old High Magic and the new I feel. However, it was always a good Lore against elves in general (didn't target I, emphasised mass low-mid strength hits etc.) and High Elves were/are no exception here I feel.

I can vouch for the shirt as I was playing on the next table. Spare a though for poor old Amit Hindocha, a strong player himself. Seredain staggers in rakishly, looking as if he's never seen a bolt thrower before. He then proceeds to remove the feared Warriors army from the table in short order. Those further interested in Shirthammer should consult Milliardo's blog in Battle Reports.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1342 Post by sutilar »

Recently I thought over the variation seems you want to give to the army list.

Close Combat Weakness

I think there is an important weakness in the army's close combat killing power - further, in the combat resolution power -. Against some armies the Swordmasters don't provide early game superiority - many times you don't need close combat until the opponent is properly reduced by ranged power or is taken to a disadvantageous position; even when you don't want to enter in the charge range of a large bretonnian heavy cavalry unit (or something similar) -, while the rest of the army isn't even near of their combat resolution capacity, excepting the Helm Bus.

Trying to resolve the weakness the Swordmasters lost the extra protection they had (the BoWD) downgrading the importance they have in the army - but not their killing power -, increasing the combat resolution power of the army's small close combat units - compensating the importance the Swordmasters loss -. Here is my own variation:

Prince – Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, Heavy Armour, Shield, Barded Steed – 276
Archmage – Level 4, High Magic, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon – 310

BSB – Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Dragon Armour, Barded Steed – 170
Mage – Level 2, Heavens Magic, Dispel Scroll – 145

24 Archers – Musician, Standard – 260
9 Silver Helms – Standard, Shields – 217
6 Silver Helms – Standard, Shields – 148

19 Swordmasters – Bladelord – 257
15 White Lions – Standard, Guardian, Banner of the Eternal Flame – 225
1 Chariot – 70

8 Sisters – 112
3 Repeater Bolt Throwers – 210
1 Great Eagle – 50
1 Great Eagle – 50

2500 points

Looking at the new army list I see one important advantage and one important disadvantage.
The advantage is that opponents softest and easiest target is the steadfast Archer unit - also they have the highest point cost -; personaly I'm happy if the opponent has to go forward this unit.
The ovbious disadvantage is the irresistible force protection loss.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1343 Post by Seredain »

SpellArcher wrote:
Seredain wrote: Depending on your opponent’s list, however, this won’t often be a good solution to the toad. The lizardmen are the only army (currently) to get access to 2 dispel scrolls.
Bretonnians!

:)
Hahaha... which would fit perfectly with me being the guy who forgets about the charge virtue... I need to play against Brets more.
SpellArcher wrote:I can vouch for the shirt as I was playing on the next table. Spare a though for poor old Amit Hindocha, a strong player himself. Seredain staggers in rakishly, looking as if he's never seen a bolt thrower before. He then proceeds to remove the feared Warriors army from the table in short order. Those further interested in Shirthammer should consult Milliardo's blog in Battle Reports.
Yes but I did get lucky breaking that lord and not losing all my repeaters to the disc sorcerer. Things just virtuously snow-balled from there, really.
Ferny wrote: I'd be very tempted to challenge you to a civil war clash if you fancied trying it out (although it wouldn't really prove any puddings as I've not been playing long) but I'm quite tied up with stuff at the moment and I'm not sure how easily I could get myself down to London in the immediate future. Looking at the blood and glory threat I imagine you'll face other high elves soon enough, although the bus approach seems to be the more popular from what I gather?
The bus approach seems very popular indeed - certainly the Giant Blade doesn't surprise anybody I meet any more. But the new dragon prince uber-bus is a completely different 'eggs in baskets' unit than the helm bus. My army remains firmly MMU in style, because the helm unit itself is pretty cheap and, now, core.

As for being tied up... you and me both brother! I qualified on Monday (I am now a construction solicitor of England and Wales... hooray), and things are hectic. And they'll probably stay that way. Still, if you're heading down to London one day, PM and we'll get our civil war on. I haven't played High Elves in 8th, so I need the practice.

Sutilar,

You're going to hate me, but I finally did it again and killed off the chariot. I'll go through the changes tomorrow, and we'll look at the problems / benefits while dealing with Nurgle game 2 and moving on to the Warriors. Notably, my list has lost a deployment drop and is now down to 10. In the current MSU-heavy meta, this is a subject that needs tackling: how does one deploy a cavbus against a weakpoint if your enemy has many more drops than you..?
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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Nemo
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1344 Post by Nemo »

Hi Seredain,

Loving the log - it has been very inspirational (I had the same ideas for an army, and finding this log was so useful when I was starting out with the old book) and with the new book it has been fantastic to see how your army has evolved. I still prefer to have a phalanx of Spears in my army, which means the end result is looking somewhat different from yours, but I have had a few thoughts when tweaking my own list.

Ages ago you ruminated on the importance of Strength 7 for the Prince, but do you think this still holds up? Hydras are now only T5, as are Chimeras (if I remember rightly) so it seems there is a little bit of a downwards trend in the toughness of monsters. Looking at the Bretonnian report, and also the fact that you use the Silver Helm bus as "bait" to lure a charge, what do you think of this Prince:

Ogre Blade, Shield, Heavy Armour, Dawnstone, Crown of Command & Barded Steed (276).

You are running the BSB with him to keep the re-rolls from the Other Trickster's Shard (which I do not do in my army, hence this is not a good build for me! With more infantry I prefer the BSB to be elsewhere), but gaining Stubborn could be huge for saving the unit on the turns in which it receives a charge - but at a cost of the better strength from the Giant Blade (and the extra pip of armour in your latest builds).

I can see that +1 Armour and +1 Strength are huge advantages and probably outweigh Stubborn significantly - but I was just wondering what you thought after your last few games where the bus has had some poor luck.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1345 Post by John Rainbow »

Nemo wrote:You are running the BSB with him to keep the re-rolls from the Other Trickster's Shard (which I do not do in my army, hence this is not a good build for me! With more infantry I prefer the BSB to be elsewhere), but gaining Stubborn could be huge for saving the unit on the turns in which it receives a charge - but at a cost of the better strength from the Giant Blade (and the extra pip of armour in your latest builds).

I can see that +1 Armour and +1 Strength are huge advantages and probably outweigh Stubborn significantly - but I was just wondering what you thought after your last few games where the bus has had some poor luck.
I don't see stubborn as being that useful for HE and I imagine Seredain will say the same. Firstly, you need to be maneuvering such that you aren't on the receiving end of a charge. Such a situation is very bad for High Elf cavalry as we revert to Str.3 and lose a lot of killing power. Secondly, if you ever find yourself in a situation where you're needing the stubborn crown, things have probably gone badly enough that the game is likely to be over anyways. I can only really see a point in using stubborn to hold a unit in place as an anvil for a turn whilst you prepare to smash them next time around. This works for say, Ogres with the T & W to take it but not so much for the relatively weaker HE troops.

As for the Str.7, you're forgetting that it also helps strip armour. Taking a Skullcrusher or Demigryph from a 50/50 to a 1/3 chance of passing their save is enormous. Maybe these aren't the ideal opponents for the Prince but it illustrates the idea pretty well. It also means you wound those Hydras 5/6 of the time, again this is twice as good as wounding them 2/3 of the time as you 'miss' with twice as many wounds in the latter case.
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1346 Post by SpellArcher »

As usual, I'm with John. S7 is more important than ever for the reasons he gives. Also, the loss of the Talisman of Loec reduces his one-round killing power, so he needs every killing tool he can lay his hands on and that includes Other Trickster's Shard. When designing my WE army the total lack of re-rolls almost forced me into building in all the potential Strength buffs I could.

Furion made the point that the big SH bus (with BSB and AM) almost never loses combat, so why would he need Stubborn? Seredain's version does lose sometimes but usually not by much, so the re-rollable Ld10 is pretty reliable. Without a BSB I could see why you'd want the Crown but then you lose the extra grinding power. When designing my Lord-only WE bus, I gambled on maximising his killing power and relying on Gleaming Pennant to soak up a bad round of combat, though of course this is not an option for Silver Helms.
Seredain wrote:The bus approach seems very popular indeed
Couldn't you think up your own playstyle?

:)
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1347 Post by Stormie »

Seredain wrote:how does one deploy a cavbus against a weakpoint if your enemy has many more drops than you..?
12-wide!
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1348 Post by Seredain »

Nemo,

Basically, what John said (and SA concurred with). Str 7 allows your prince to do things that ordinary elves cannot and, when you're only toting 4 attacks (or 5 on the charge), +1 to wound tough models, and taking another -1 off their armour, is a very big deal. The crown of command is not, however, at least not for my unit. +2 static res from the flags and re-rollable 10 is brilliant defensive leadership, and doesn't need the item points which messes up the most powerful combat combos. I'd rather be generating active res with my prince to stay in the fight, than have his knights sit there with his crown waiting to be rescued. The BSB helps with his own kills, of course (and the flag is good), but his OTS is invaluable for a prince who's day can be ruined by decent ward saves. Something useful to note: that Chaos Disclord of Warhammer Immunity can't re-roll a re-roll, so just hope he makes his first ward saves and then rolls some 1s and 2s on the re-roll.

The idea of a stubborn knight unit as merit, though. I think I'd be looking to get some aggressive magic in there to help you out with killing power.

Stormie,

You mock my mega-essays of self-indulgence with your tactical pith!

In the event, I've decided to summarise my army changes, get onto the games (the good stuff), and then discuss deployment while looking at some actual pictures to show my thinking. So here we go.

Consolidation Continues

Two big things have changed in the last couple of years which have fundamentally shifted the way my army needs to play. The first of these is something we’d discussed a few times since our new book came out: the loss of Speed of Asuryan has meant that, in order to put out damage like they used to, our infantry need to take advantage of Martial Prowess and fight in 3 ranks. Although cheaper per model, my infantry units, which were always small, have had to get more expensive to project the same level of threat as they used to. There are advantages to this – the resistance to damage, the (greatly) improved access to reliable magical buffs and ward saves, and the fact that more attacks can be better because you have the possibility of getting lucky and making more hits overall (as you will have noticed from Dark Elf crossbows). But the disadvantage I have found is that, slowly but surely, my points investment in my elite infantry has finally grown to the stage that my deployment drops are lower than they were last edition. When our book first came out, I thought that the fact that all our support units were cheaper meant that I could, and should, run more unit drops (units of 5 sisters, 5 helms, the chariot). In actual fact, keeping the core infantry strength of my army has meant that I have spent all of this time slowly hacking away at these units.

The second big element in this shift is magic. High Magic is a wonderful toolbox lore, but it has a poor selection of dice-manipulating buffs unless you’re relying on the archmage’s unit to do all the heavy lifting (and I don’t think you should be). Also, without the free drain magic spell of our last book (which wasn’t superb but which remained useful as a 5th cast), prioritising dispel rolls is that little bit easier for your opponent. Redundancy of casts is important if you want your magic to do great things, and a single High archmage doesn't really have that.

For me, the Book of Hoeth is the nail in the coffin for the 1-mage High Phase. It’s too good for me to pass up because, unlike the old Banner of Sorcery, it gets more spells off for you without increasing risk in the way that throwing more dice per cast does, as we did when we used to get more (unless of course you like to risk those double 6’s, which I don’t). Indeed, by encouraging you to throw 1 dice on your last couple of spells, it can decrease the risk of a miscast while getting more bang for your buck. It’s superb.

Both of these features of the new High Magic encourage the purchasing of a second caster to carry a scroll (I love a scroll) and, crucially (since spending 120+ points on a scroll seems like a terrible waste), to supplement your spell selection. I’ve written before why I chose Heavens on my support caster, but it suffices to say here that spending the points on him eats away at the rest of the army something chronic. Originally, I kept my support units alongside this second caster and it was my line-of-battle infantry that suffered as a result. Recently, however, I concluded that, since my choice of magic is itself a form of support, I needed to make sure I had another unit capable of actually benefiting from this support rather than just taking more support units. You’ll recall how I felt against Bretonnians, after I’d chucked my bus away and struggled to get over the schizophrenia of the double-mage swordmasters, that my army was filled with satellites but didn't have enough planets. Well, I experienced this sensation again in my last game against Nurgle’s daemons.

Nurgle Daemons 2

So, basically this army was the same list as last time, except this guy had no furies, and fewer units generally, but he did have a few lone-ranging nurgbeasts and Epidemus, who is an absolute motherfunker, in a small plaguebearer bunker. For those not familiar with this guy, he makes all Nurgle units better whenever daemons or spells of Nurgle kills things. That word 'kills' became important later, because my opponent played it wrongly and this meant that I couldn't kill his beasts with my Banner swordmasters and characters together, or the last 4 models of a 30 model plaguebearer unit with my shooting and lions, after about Turn 4. A 1000 point swing after a few turns of this and a big win had gone to a draw. Lame. My satellite units were also having a rough time again. Against the two skullcannons, my chariot was ball-food. So kept it out of the way and, when a beast came too close to my repeaters, I dual-charged it out alongside the 5 helms. They bounced and, a round later, broke and fled off the table (wrongly adding to the tally in the process - I need to know enemy army books better - rage). This same beast then ate my 12 white lions after they bounced, amazingly, off the last 4 plaguebearers. Luckily, I'd killed papa nurgle by this point, so a swing like this wasn't fatal, but it was dispiriting. And rather unlucky.

Ch-ch-ch-changes

In reality, though, I'd noticed in both my games against the daemons that my support units were struggling for fairly good reasons. Firstly, these solo-beasts presented me with too many targets for my one unit of sisters to deal with. Having some Str 6 flaming attacks backing up those arrows would have been invaluable. They would also have changed completely the fortune of my lions in daemons game 1, when they bounced hilariously off those housebound horrors by rolling all those 1s to wound. You can't plan for luck like that, of course, but it was a nice reminder of the usefulness of flaming attacks when it comes to storming buildings generally. These same lions also struggled to deal with bad luck like this. The unit of 12 was certainly more robust that the old unit of 10, but if it took one good walloping, it ceased to work anywhere near as well. To begin with it packs less of a punch than a larger unit, of course but, after a nasty round, it also becomes vulnerable to hemorrhaging points in the late game, as it did here.

Next, the 5 helms. This unit can run over light stuff like a champ, but once you start to hit a certain class of enemy, they struggle. A chariot cannon isn't much threatened by them and, where I would ordinarily put the Tiranoc in alongside against tougher stuff, it's too easy to cannon off. Against things like chaos chariots, meanwhile, the 5 helms are again a slightly unreliably solution. But I think there are relatively easy ways to improve their performance. Firstly, an extra model makes them harder to kill off and boosts their attacking strength by a full 20% (as against the relatively small contribution this model makes to the Bus). Secondly, I decided to take a standard. Yes, on a small unit, it's a risk, but I have eagles for throwing away. The standard in fact makes excellent sense when you're using this unit to charge off light units or shift harder stuff without its own resolution because it doubles the static combat res you get from making the charge. Against a Ld 7 or Ld 8 unit, that's fantastic. 6 lances will cause a wound or two to a chaos chariot (2-3 wounds before saves), and its crew are quite likely to so a similar amount of damage back. In this environment, an extra +1 on the charge is important. Even against lighter stuff, if the helms don't do so well (as when I recently charged 5 of them into some marauder horse, killed 2 but then lost 2 helms back), the difference can be vital for knights that aren't designed to grind against anything except light units.

So, the new list:

Prince – Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, Heavy Armour, Shield, Barded Steed – 276
Archmage – Level 4, High Magic, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon – 310

BSB – Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed – 164
Mage – Level 2, Heavens, Dispel Scroll – 145

23 Archers – Musician, Standard – 250
9 Silver Helms – Musician, Standard, Shields – 227
6 Silver Helms – Standard, Shields – 148

20 Swordmasters – Bladelord, Standard, Banner of the World Dragon – 330
15 White Lions – Guardian, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame – 225

8 Firebows – 112
3 Repeater Bolt Throwers – 210
2 Great Eagles – 100

2497 points

More explicitly an MMU army than at any time this addition, with powerful shooting and magic support. We'll crack on with my first two games with this army this week and see how it plays.

Oh, and I have been following the excellent Dark Elves coverage that's been happening for the last few days (particular props to Tethlis). My archers and helms are looking pretty tasty in this match-up, I think. Looking forward to giving them a wallop.
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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Seredain
The Cavalry Prince
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1349 Post by Seredain »

A quick preview, of lizards...

Image

And the nastiest deamon prince I've seen:

Image

Coming soon.
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

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HERO
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Re: The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

#1350 Post by HERO »

Seredain, I had the funniest game against someone doing the CavPrince strat yesteday.

After depleting much of his Silver Helms into paste, my opponent charged me with his unit of Prince, BSB, and 3 Helms into my Witches unit in the flank due to a lucky overrun roll the previous turn. Then disaster struck: I throw Regen on my Witches unit and Hellebron makes way to the flank to intercept the Prince's attack. They fail their Fear check from Cry of War even with the re-roll, and then Hellebron threw out her attacks. 5 on the Prince, 3 on the BSB and 1 into the Champ (rolled a 4 for +D3 attacks). ASF cancels by and with Hatred, S10 and re-roll 1s, I kill all of the High Elf royalty. Attacks back resulted in 1 wound done to Hellebron, which I heal back next turn from my Life mage. Then I proceeded to 6-dice Dwellers and kill 19/24 White Lions.

Beyond funny, but I enjoyed it much.
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