The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

[SpellArcher]

Good to know, GW, thanks!

[Ferny]

Nice post as usual - a few questions for you:

Given the role you've stated for your archers, would you consider switching to LSG? I know they're generally not the preferred core choice, but then you've eschewed that principle already with your use of spears before and swordmasters now. Potentially their armour makes a difference against the type of opponents you'd want them to be fighting (makes no odds against what would really hurt archers anyway, e.g. WoC). I don't think their spears help one way or another here (in fact, in small units, they'd be better off without now we have MP, and just using sword and shield - hey, new unit idea, and a nice way to use HE sword models!). I find HE shooting pretty crappy without magical support and even with nice big units of 18ish, its still usually half hitting, half wounding (if lucky) so max of 4-5 dead/turn. That's great for clearing chaff (their key shooting role IMO) but is disappointing against anything else. Despite their shorter range and shorter-short range, LSG can be used for this same role reasonably effectively.

I think I've asked this on other threads rather than yours so I hope I'm not getting confused and repeating myself, but with the WL, would you consider swapping the gleaming pennant for the flaming banner? Sure, there are flameproof units and characters out there, but they're currently the perfect size for monster hunting (especially if you have the drops, which I think you do), and the banner helps tons with this. I know you have the tools in your characters, possibly the bus and possibly the SM to deal with monsters, but lions do the job so well. In a game with multiple hydras/HPA etc it'd be really nice to have lions kitted out for this. I can see plenty of reasons why you'd go gleaming, but especially with the loss of ASF re-rolls, I think WL lose a lot of their monster killing potential without the banner.

Finally, I know your army is built around synergy, and it's clear that changing just one little thing will have repercussions on everything else. As such I'm not asking for a full break-down as it'd send you into meltdown if you tried to answer (it'd be like asking a chess player to plan out their next 10 moves with no data on what their opponent will do)...but magic lores. Currently you've got a Lv4 and a Lv 2, both high. I don't see the 4/2 thing changing immediately - the benefits of the Lv2 seem too great for you here. But your lore choice is interesting because there are so many options and variables. So, without going into much detail, have you considered running a broadly similar (i.e. Cav Prince) list with different lores, and if so, which? You've mentioned toying with Lv2 shadow - any others tempt you? And more interestingly IMO, would you consider switching Lv4 High for something else (noting the obvious and instant ramification for the SM)?

[Furion]

I have two things to comment on:

1. The 3rd RBT on rectangular base as opposed to RBT 1&2 on round bases hurts my OCD. Unberable!
2. I don't get the love for even worse swordmaster. Also, with lack of meaningful magic banners (ie. flaming attacks or razor) your units don't have any specific edge when fighting vs specific foe, and following this criteria White Lions are better. Anything with T3 dies to White Lions as good as it dies to Swordmasters, and if we go to higher T / As value then WL come on top. Any reason why not to merge the units into one WL / PG block (which sounds reasonable if there's no BotWD) or at least swap the numbers?

cheers
Furion

[Ferny]

I think I've asked this on other threads rather than yours so I hope I'm not getting confused and repeating myself, but with the WL, would you consider swapping the gleaming pennant for the flaming banner? Sure, there are flameproof units and characters out there, but they're currently the perfect size for monster hunting (especially if you have the drops, which I think you do), and the banner helps tons with this. I know you have the tools in your characters, possibly the bus and possibly the SM to deal with monsters, but lions do the job so well. In a game with multiple hydras/HPA etc it'd be really nice to have lions kitted out for this. I can see plenty of reasons why you'd go gleaming, but especially with the loss of ASF re-rolls, I think WL lose a lot of their monster killing potential without the banner.

I've realised since posting (wish my mind could dwell on more important things than forums, but no, obsessed with elf lists!) that your list contains some very obvious anti-regen monster threats: sisters and bolt throwers. I'm becoming increasingly combat focussed through my frustration at getting shooting to pay off for me against harder match-ups and left me obviously myopic to this solution in your list, just because it wasn't working well with me. Still, that said, shooting is what it is and while you've invested heavily enough in it as a phase for it to work, it still isn't inherently great. With one unit of sisters you can only remove regen on one model/turn, and even with three bolt throwers you've still got to hit, wound and score high enough on your D3 to take the monsters down. I reckon with averageish rolls thats maybe one monster/turn, which is pretty solid even if it doesn't entirely remove the monster threat, it certainly gives you more breathing room.

[Cyrus]

A couple of questions, Seredain:

First, what's the game plan for keeping your Archmage alive once those Swordmasters get into combat?

Second, how do you weight the tradeoff of combat ability as opposed to the large archer unit's ability to remove steadfast? My initial thought would be that removing steadfast does you no good if it's counterbalanced by your opponent being able to remove combat res as fast as they can kill T3 unarmored archers.

[Stormie]

Did the Bretonnian fight ever get posted?

VVV Also consider Swordmasters have a full rank's worth of extra attacks. One rank of Swordmasters kills nearly twice as many Halberd-wielding Chaos Warriors compared to White Lions (although the deeper the formations, the less this matters).

[Tetengo]

Anything with T3 dies to White Lions as good as it dies to Swordmasters, and if we go to higher T / As value then WL come on top.

Unless they have WS5 when Swordmasters are better. If you look at Chaos Warriors for example, or DE Elites, SMs perform better than WLs.

[Cyrus]

Yeah, about the only time I'd really stock up on Swordmasters would be if I were tailoring a list against Chaos. (Against Dark Elves I think Phoenix Guard are better.)

[Tetengo]

I play Chaos every week, so I love me some Swordies. I did try using big units of WL and PG but they just can't hit anything with Nurgle on it.

[John Rainbow]

Your new list looks good Seredain. It's interesting in that you seems to be reducing the points value of your units significantly as the army evolves. Now you don't really have any single unit that is worth over 300 or so points. It reminds me a lot of the current Empire net list which uses many units, none of which are really worth more than any other unit - thus target priority is made increasingly difficult as there are no real targets of value. Obviously your list is slightly different in that we don't have something like the Steam Tank to be a rock solid anvil so the bus has to come into play, this changes things a little with the amount of points in that unit but I think the principle is still very similar. You now have multiple targets, all of which play a significant role in the success of the list. Does the opponent shoot the bus, or the swordsmen or try and take out your support elements? This decision is becoming increasingly difficult with your new lists and I like it.

[SpellArcher]

Been asked to let you know that Seredain is currently stuck in an internet-less barn in the middle of darkest Dorset but will be back online probably Monday. He is very keen to respond to all queries!

[Seredain]

So, I am returned from a lovely holiday in darkest rural Dorset, enjoying castles, hill forts (including the massive Maiden Castle, bloodily taken by Vespasian's Second Augusta Legion in 43AD), ruined abbeys, Saxon ramparts, beaches, boats and pubs. Joy.

But I also had no internet and barely any phone signal, so there was no posting to be done. Apologies to those awaiting a reply all this time. Some interesting points have been raised and it's worth taking them in turn. This may take me a little time over the next couple of days, and I still have a couple of games to summarise before we move on to my recent visit to Warhammer World for Council of War, culminating in a 10K vs 10K beast of a battle and the hangover from hell.

I'll deal with everyone's posts in turn.

Personally I would have no faith in such a small WL unit without ASF. Against multiplie high armor threat I can see you struggle a bit. Like the cookie cutter chaos lists. I played one yesterday (not very filthy as we play comped) but he had skullcrushers, a knight bus and 3 x chariots plus a large warrior unit. My bus and spears had to go head to head with his bus while my SM faced his inf so my WL was alone vs the crushers.

Grumpy,

The MSU White Lion Block

The short point is that 12 white lions with a standard are not in a position to stand up to a unit like Bloodcrushers! WS5 dudes with I5 riders, loads of attacks and stomp? No no. But neither are they designed to be used as a stand-alone anvil like this. 12 white lions are a unit that works as a part of a layered defence or unit combination. Against superior enemy, a classic example would be to get that enemy to eat an eagle and countercharge with the lions alongside other units (perhaps the chariot, with 5 helms in a flank). In other situations, you might allow the overrun from an eagle into your lion unit, should you need to draw the enemy closer to make these counter-charges easier.

In any case, none of these moves should be made without your missile power coming into play before you commit this small unit to combat. The silver helm bus, by contrast, can commit to most combats with relatively little intervention from shooting. The wardmaster unit (as I've taken to calling my High Magic swordmasters), can likewise take care of itself against most opposition, especially with some cheap magic and the support of the Banner (a superb choice for them which I have finally found a way to get back in without losing Repeater number 3 - more on that later). If you're going to be using the 12 white lions as the defensive anchor to your advance, however, this is where you need to be piling in your bolts and eagles before committing your lions to mop up remains. If you have to use your main archer block to bloodily hold a charge first, then so be it, but the lions themselves need to swing their axes, so use your other units to ensure that, when you commit the lions, they have enough attacks to do the damage you need. If the worst happens and you have to commit them to a losing combat, reduce their frontage by as much as possible (in deployment if you think you'll have no choice), and use them to tank hits and hold with the gleaming pennant before help arrives.

Typically, though, you want to be using your more expendable or durable units for this kind of duty, and only then committing your 12 white lions to provide a short sharp shock - a counter-attacking punch. In my last game against ogres, I shot 2 mournfang out of a unit of 4 with repeater bolt throwers and sisters, diverted them with an eagle (sisters were on stand-by as a reserve re-director), then countered with the 12 lions and finished the beasts off. Ideally, that is how you use this unit. You don't need to use them defensively at all, of course. A 12-man lion unit only 4 wide can join charges alongside your hammers against other opponents (eg: hold enemy with eagle, receive overrun with helm bus (people would rather charge them than the other way around - often they'll take the bait), then counter-punch with the 12 lions), and help wreck them.

Ordinarily, indeed, I'd be looking to use the Helm Bus to charge monstrous cavalry and drive them off (easily done unless they're packing characters), before moving on to other targets. In a wider context, collectively 2 units of cavalry, a chariot, two eagles and all the ranged power (magical and otherwise) give Combined Arms High Elves plenty of tools to hinder and chip away at the chariot-heavy armies we're all worrying about at the moment (buildings and terrain obviously provide an advantage here). The fact remains that, until they charge, chariots are both slow and easy to block: it's therefore quite easy to make sure they don't all charge at once. In any case, defending yourself from armies like this is never about taking it on the chin with your small elite units and hoping for the best. You create exclusion zones with your fast troops, break up a unified advance with eagles, pick off or weaken the most dangerous targets with shooting and ranged magic and only then step in with the infantry to finish the job and drive your way up the board. Unless you can ward them into invulnerability with magic, you commit your 12 lions as the last line of defence. Treat them with care and I think they'll do better for you.

High + Heavens

On the chariot-spam theme, I recently decided to switch up my second mage's lore in the end - not to Shadow, but to Heavens. Originally, the break with High came because I chose to ditch the Ring of Fury from the level 2 to contribute to buying back the Banner of the World Dragon without losing either the extra repeater bolt thrower or any troops. This made the concept of pumping out close-range missile death (made slightly less important by the recent boosts to my shooting phase), immediately less essential to his character, and opened up a world of different possibilities. So why Heavens for a level 2? Because every single spell, with the exception of Wind Blast (although I suppose pushing a chariot out of charge range is no bad thing), either fills a gap or finds a useful synergy with High Magic and my army. In short:

1) Iceshard Blizzard synergises very well indeed with the WS buff from Hand of Glory;
2) Iceshard Blizzard gives me a tool against war machines, as does Comet (and war machines always worry me);
3) Iceshard Blizzard also synergises perfectly with Apotheosis (Fear plus -1 to enemy leadership) - in all it is the perfect signature spell for my army and main Lore.
4) The superior range of Heavens magic allows my level 2 to support more of my army while staying out of trouble. This frees my infantry units from the essential bodyguard duty needed to exploit Soul Quench against anything but light troops. Archers and sisters remain useful bodyguards, but can maintain safer distances from enemy troops.
5) The re-roll 1's bubble buff is amazing if you're shooting single bolts with your repeaters. The normal version is also great for ASF-less elites, or a Giant Blade prince.
6) The re-roll 6's hex is amazing if you're worried about killing blow on your helm bus, or poison against your light units.
7) The lightning gives me a different kind of ranged attack from the machine-gun fire produced by arrows and Soul Quench, buying me more tactical variety at range. Useful for taking on smaller, heavier units like Chaos Chariots.
8 ) Chain lightning and Comet are both fantastic against MSU/chariot spam armies.
9) The anti-flier attribute is situational, but very useful for defending elven infantry against these manoeuvreable units.
9) Heavens is a relatively cheap lore: a level 2 has a decent chance of casting all the spells on a max of 5 dice.

Basically, all the tools in the lore have a useful gap-filling capability from the horde-bashing and character+swordmaster synergy provided by my 4 levels of High Magic.

Next Testing Phase

My first game with Heavens support will be at the end of this week, and I'll let you know how it goes.

In the meantime, I'm still tweaking with the points for the Banner... We're looking at taking out the Ring of Khaine's Fury, the two elite musicians (very useful but no way near as influential as the Banner, and can be offset by attentive deployment and movement), and then either the bladelord and Ironcurse Icon (total 60 for swordmaster standard with Banner), or a single swordmaster trooper (I have 2 points spare in the list, so this allows me to keep the Ironcurse Icon). So, the choice is effectively between:

Level 4 - High Magic, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon; with
19 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Standard, Banner of the World Dragon; or

Level 4 - High Magic, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance; with
20 Swordmasters - Standard, Banner of the World Dragon.

With a valuable character in the unit, it seems that the bladelord option is important while, against all comers, the +1 ward from the Icon will surely help preserve more than 1 swordsman from death. On the other hand, not having a complete rank of 7 swords messes with my OCD. Someone please tell me to snap out of it and do the right thing.

More answers on their way during the course of this week. Thanks for your time.

Cheers,
S


Edited lots to include more rambling.

[SpellArcher]

Are you actually suggesting conga lining your Lions Seredain or did I interpret that wrong?



A bit surprised to see the High Magic spam toned down. There's always that question when you have the two casters of whether to go for the flexibility of the second Lore or the spell selection power of just sticking with one. Heavens is of course quite a popular Lore these days for several armies, though usually on a Lvl4. Convergence is good but tends to cluster your shooters together. Still, as you frequently deploy a firebase that may not be an issue.

Yep, I'd keep the Icon. Your AM has the Ward but even so that champ is probably necessary.

[Seredain]

Certainly am SA! Not a 1-wide megaconga, but gunning the white lions into an enemy unit while standing 2 wide, and maybe dropping Hand of Glory / Iceshard Blizzard, is an excellent way of grinding enemy units down without losing models. I used the axemen 2x6 the other day against black orcs and, since I was only suffering 4 attacks back, dominated with them. 6 attacks across 2 models is a useful. I should say, however, that on this occasion, I really, really needed to pull some tricks to stay in the game. It was 2k and my helm bus (which I think is a little too much for 2k, but we'd had to list-bash down from 2.5 at the last minute because we only had a 4x4 board), having fled 12" from a SO Big Horde charge (I wanted to draw them out, shoot, rally counter attack), failed their rally test and then fled another 10" - right off the board. Ouch! Necessity is the mother of invention, you see.

On the High+High vs High+Heavens question:

I think it really comes down to whether I want to do everything (+Shields), which HiHi allows, or whether I want to do fewer things (particularly combat buffs) well, with a couple of extra benefits like Unforging, Comet and so on, as HiHe offers. When it came to spells, the particular consideration which saw the second clutch of High Spells go was Iceshard Blizzard. As a guaranteed spell, it is absolutely excellent for us considering our high base weapon skill+Hand of Glory, our easy access to fear on important combat units (Apotheosis), our ability to force panic tests with heavy shooting and our aversion to enemy shooting. Also, with the extra repeater bolt thrower, I felt like I could afford to reduce my access to low-strength ranged power and replace it with access to something more unique, even if it's just the lightning bolt. That the top level Heavens spells are relatively cheap, making them accessible to a lowly level 2, rounded off its attractiveness as a support lore.

The clincher was losing Ring of Fury to get the Banner in. Without that item (and in the end I determined that the Banner would be more influential than the Ring, since I already had 6 spells to throw dice at), I had much less reason to get the level 2 into 18" range than before. Without a second powerful infantry block and not enough points for a decent save on this caster it seemed sensible, in the end, to use my arrows, fast MSU elements and (crucially) extra bolts to deal with chaff clearance, and let my magic focus on more specialist areas while allowing him to keep at a safer distance.

The problem with this situation is that it will now be impossible to take more than 1 of the specialist spells (Unforging, Fiery Convocation), without losing access to the always-castable hexes and buffs. This will force some harder choices when it comes to spell selection. It is to be hoped that the utility of the Heavens spells will be enough to makes these choices easier to bear.

Nice post as usual - a few questions for you:

Given the role you've stated for your archers, would you consider switching to LSG? I know they're generally not the preferred core choice, but then you've eschewed that principle already with your use of spears before and swordmasters now. Potentially their armour makes a difference against the type of opponents you'd want them to be fighting (makes no odds against what would really hurt archers anyway, e.g. WoC). I don't think their spears help one way or another here (in fact, in small units, they'd be better off without now we have MP, and just using sword and shield - hey, new unit idea, and a nice way to use HE sword models!). I find HE shooting pretty crappy without magical support and even with nice big units of 18ish, its still usually half hitting, half wounding (if lucky) so max of 4-5 dead/turn. That's great for clearing chaff (their key shooting role IMO) but is disappointing against anything else. Despite their shorter range and shorter-short range, LSG can be used for this same role reasonably effectively.

I think I've asked this on other threads rather than yours so I hope I'm not getting confused and repeating myself, but with the WL, would you consider swapping the gleaming pennant for the flaming banner?

Ferny,

Apologies as usual for being behind the times with my response. I hope the recent breakdown of my latest magical choices (including above) explains my current thinking well enough on that subject. Your points about seaguard and flaming white lions are both good ones. I do think seaguard are decent troops where you have access to spells which emphasise their combat advantages over archers (e.g. Wildform), but in usual circumstances I think the extra 6" range is absolutely huge for board control. The archers are also cheaper than the seaguard, a genuine consideration when the temptation to field core cavalry restricts the number of bodies we are willing or able to cram into our core infantry units. Finally, fighting in 3 ranks reduces the differences between the spears and archers in combat. As a long-time spearman fan, these cumulative changes make archers a very strong core choice.

When it comes to flaming attacks, you've picked up already that my anti-regen abilities are actually very decent so long as I can plink a wound on something with the sisters (8 is about the lower limit for me). If that works, I've got a lot of ranged firepower to lay down and bring down trolls and chimeras (or rather one target per turn). There is a very good argument for placing the flaming banner with the lions as well (or at least another combat unit) but, since mine often are required to operate away from the general, the gleaming pennant is more integral to the role to which they are uniquely specialised. The flaming banner is great against cavalry and regenerating monsters, but large troll buses are too large to put 12 lions into, and having that reliability of leadership is one of those abilities that is useful every game, as opposed to a few games every now and then.

I have two things to comment on:

1. The 3rd RBT on rectangular base as opposed to RBT 1&2 on round bases hurts my OCD. Unberable!
2. I don't get the love for even worse swordmaster. Also, with lack of meaningful magic banners (ie. flaming attacks or razor) your units don't have any specific edge when fighting vs specific foe, and following this criteria White Lions are better. Anything with T3 dies to White Lions as good as it dies to Swordmasters, and if we go to higher T / As value then WL come on top. Any reason why not to merge the units into one WL / PG block (which sounds reasonable if there's no BotWD) or at least swap the numbers?

cheers
Furion

Hey Furion,

Haha, putting that square base on was a battle of the OCDs for me: in the end I couldn't bear to have the new machine displayed without a base more than I couldn't stand it to have a different base. And now I have an odd looking battery to forever remind me of my child-like impatience.

In Defence of Swordmasters (Again)

I can only think, in having to defend swordmasters as much as I am at the moment, that people aren't really seeing the wood for the trees on this one. Maybe it's Martial Prowess vision and people get overly-focused on the idea that swordmasters in many ranks are wasting attacks. This is, of course, true - you pay the points for 2 attacks and don't get to use all of them. But it's also true that a unit like this can be reformed into shallower formations to bring more attacks into play where you want them. In any case, it is also true that getting only one supporting attack per back-ranker does not mean (and this is the important bit), that swordmasters don't kill more models with their extra front rank of attacks: because, on average against all-comers, they do.

1 - Killing Things

If you run probability tests from T3 troops up to T7, AS5+ to AS1+, WS2 to WS6, you'll get a load of specific results you can use to predict your favoured matchups. I ran my tests with 21 of each elite troops type, in 3 ranks of 7. The bottom line is (as I've said) that where the elites are hitting on 3s, swordmasters kill more enemy models than lions until you get to T4, AS4+ (the difference is marginal but lions just pip it here). Swordmasters remain significantly better horde-smashers than lions are in the first round. Lions, once you start getting to T5 AS4+, or T4 2+ saves, show their superiority as our can-openers of choice (For me, incidentally, this makes them good for operating in smaller units (which they may do with more impunity, given they are stubborn), as enemy cavalry units tend to have fewer wounds to take off than enemy rank and file infantry).

So far so predictable, but the picture changes dramatically when you start facing WS5 opponents, as Stormie suggests. In these instances, the swords' additional attacks and additional hits put out more damage until you get to the top end of the Toughness/Armour scale. Elite infantry, like Chaos Warriors, outclass white lions but can be tackled by swordmasters much more effectively, and it's important to me that my elite infantry be able to tackle the enemy's equivalent if I'm spending a lot of points on it. Since I have anti-armour solutions in both my other combat units and most of my ranged power, my main elite unit needs to hold ground and win combats against basically 'everything else'. When it comes to killing things, swordmasters are that unit.

2 - Attrition

We've only looked at the first round of combat when considering combat results. As combats go on and you lose models to attrition, lions start losing a greater percentage of their attacks as compared with the swordmasters. Once you've only got 2 ranks of troops left, the swordmasters' are significantly better at killing than 2 ranks of lions. Get both units down to one rank and the difference only increases. Across the game, therefore, the damage output from your swordmasters will far outclass that from your lions where you're able to limit their attrition to reasonable levels. Here, we turn to magic.

3 - Magical Support

It's important to point out here (as I've read lots that the WS6 of swords doesn't matter when we have access to Hand of Glory - and I leave alone the statistical superiority of gaining WS7 against WS3 troops from a base of WS6), that I fully acknowledge that all our elite infantry have access to spells which plug their weaknesses. Phoenix Guard have Wildform, Mindrazor etc. White Lions have Hand of Glory and Miasma for the WS boosts/debuffs. Swordmasters, whose primary weakness is defensive, have the usual hexes on their side but also any spell from High Magic. This is crucial, because the obviously important thing about High spells is that, for the purposes of Shield of Saphery, any of them will do. It is therefore impossible for your opponent to dispel them all and block your ward buff (as well as blocking Iceshard Blizzard), in a way that he could far more easily where he's watching out for specific spells like Wildform. Adding defensive boosts to swordmasters is therefore much easier than adding offensive boosts to the other elites, which require specific spells to go off. Against savvy opponents, this matters, a lot.

Conclusion

I do worry that the mantra "Swordmasters suck now except in units of 5-10" is becoming one of those internet-isms that becomes so fixed in everybody's mind that people don't bother to really think about whether or not it's actually true. Because it really isn't. Having a mundane advantage in WS and Attacks is very important in a game where our ability to defensively buff our elites is much more reliable than our ability to buff (or nerf) particular characteristics of friendly or enemy units. Of course, phoenix guard and white lions both have significant defensive advantages over swordmasters for similar reasons: their defensive abilities don't need you to successfully cast spells. However, the fact remains that Shield of Saphery gives us defensive buffs that can't be matched by other magic in terms of reliability. And if you're looking to win, rather than hold combats in an environment where barely any spells go off at all, swordmasters remain the all-comers killer infantry unit of choice. Since my knights are pretty good at tanking and I have good ground-holding power with all my chaff+lion detachment, having this infantry-hammer matters as a way of balancing my force and indulging my aggressive tendencies.

The truth is I like all our elites, but I certainly can't accept that swordmasters are out of the picture for people wanting to field powerful High Elf armies. And now I have Banner of the World Dragon back in for the loss of only one trooper, that's one more unit of Bloodcrushers I don't have to worry about.

Cyrus and Stormie - you're up next. Thanks for your patience!

Cheers,
S

[Seredain]

Aaaand here's the current List:


Prince – Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, Heavy Armour, Shield, Barded Steed – 276
Archmage – Level 4, High Magic, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon – 310

BSB – Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed – 164
Mage – Level 2, Heavens Magic, Dispel Scroll – 145

24 Archers – Musician, Standard – 260
10 Silver Helms – Musician, Standard, Shields – 250
5 Silver Helms – Shields – 115

19 Swordmasters – Bladelord, Standard, Banner of the World Dragon – 317
12 White Lions – Standard, Gleaming Pennant – 171
1 Chariot – 70

8 Sisters – 112
3 Repeater Bolt Throwers – 210
1 Great Eagle – 50
1 Great Eagle – 50

2500 points


Still at the Beta Testing phase, but I feel like we're getting there...

[Arhain]

Aaaand here's the current List:


Prince – Giant Blade, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness, Heavy Armour, Shield, Barded Steed – 276
Archmage – Level 4, High Magic, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon – 310

BSB – Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Other Trickster’s Shard, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed – 164
Mage – Level 2, Heavens Magic, Dispel Scroll – 145

24 Archers – Musician, Standard – 260
10 Silver Helms – Musician, Standard, Shields – 250
5 Silver Helms – Shields – 115

19 Swordmasters – Bladelord, Standard, Banner of the World Dragon – 317
12 White Lions – Standard, Gleaming Pennant – 171
1 Chariot – 70

8 Sisters – 112
3 Repeater Bolt Throwers – 210
1 Great Eagle – 50
1 Great Eagle – 50

I'm sorry if I didn't see elsewhere, but are you running the SH 6x2 nor or ranks of 5 with 2 random SH in the back?

And I understand completely why you put the BotWD back. It's just too good for the points. It synergizes well with a caster in a combat block, and does away with the stress of template miscasts, and really helps against those tough match-ups. Funny you took away Ring of Fury on your lvl 2, i'm contemplating that at the moment as well. What were some of your thoughts on dropping it? Was it simply a Ring of Fury vs. BotWD debate (would be an easy choice), or was it something more.

I'm figuring out whether I want to spend the 25 pts for an item with the 18" range. With your caster's setup (identical to the one i'm using except for the Lore on the lvl 2), you want to funnel most dice through your high mage which is relatively easy due to th Book, and maybe one spell through with your lvl 2. Because of this, you're usually not attempting or putting dice aside for the Ring of Fury, and with the range on the spell and your lvl 2 sitting in a bunker, it's not always points well spent. I don't know, still thinking about it personally, but would love to hear your thought process.

[Seredain]

Hey Arhain,

Losing the Ring was a no-go area for me when I was trying to get the third repeater in, so it's funny that once I lost the Banner it crystalized my view into getting it back and losing the Ring to do it. In the end, it came down to the notion that the Banner has game-changing potential without needing power dice. Obviously this applies to a wide variety of enemy armies and units - not least war machines and character buses - but it vastly improves magic defence (you can usually save your dice for protecting the bus), and as you say solves the problem of miscasts blowing a huge hole in your main infantry unit!

In terms of practical experience, this last point is what got to me in the end. I attempted to cast HoG on my swordmasters jusy to boost my ward save by a pip to finish a doomwheel that was down to 2 wounds. This was a 2k game against a very decent skaven player and I was up by a good amount on Turn 6... Then a miscast on 3 dice drops my 165 point level 2 High Mage down a hole and blows my swordmasters apart. I therefore don't kill the doomwheel - instead it runs over my remaining swords, grabs their points and preserves its own. A 500+ points swing on Turn 6 takes a decent win to a draw. Gaaagh. Fantastic game, but that miscast left an indelible impression (in my mind, and probably also in the ground).

On the ring's range, there's no ignoring that 18" is problematic for my list. I can get the swords in close with relative impunity by virtue of their (and the archmage's) defensive kit, as well as typically close support from the cavalry. This is not true of a 2 wound model with little or no defensive ability with (in my case) only the smaller, more vulnerable units to deploy in, so it makes using him a little more awkward. Certainly I quickly turned off the idea of putting him with the swordmasters too - they've better things to do than protect such a vulnerable target.

Thing is, you can deal with these problems where this caster is chucking out 4d6 str4 hits per turn but, once you take the ring out, the critical mass of this ranged power isn't there, so all of a sudden you have much less reason to get your secondary caster into close quarters and be an inconvenience to himself and his fellows during depoyment. It was losing the Ring, in the end, which saw me break from High on this caster and instead look for utility spells which would fill a capability gap while slotting in with my level 4's High magic. Heavens fitted the bill nicely, and gave me more range to play with. Since I have the amazing flag back now, I'm pretty happy with the result.

[Labyrinth]

Hi Seredain,

I've been a big fan of your blog since our last book and have been trying out a similar style of list lately. With my Prince and BSB in with 13 silver helms.

I had a rough game against D Elves and was wondering how you deal with death magic? Since the Prince and Silver Helms (the BSB to some extent) have no real protection against snipes. I lost both of my heroes fairly quickly!

Thanks

Labyrinth

[Stormie]

Remember you can always put your mounted characters in infantry units, so if you have a unit with Banner of the world Dragon, and your opponent is using Death Magic, then it can be a good idea to add them to that unit. It is always a good idea to be flexible with the way you run your army- don't always use the same formation, and don't always put X character in Y unit.

If you are facing someone who has cannons/stone throwers (no look out sir) and Death magic though, then you'll have to take your chances! You're unlikely to ever see this though, as only Ogres, Empire and Chaos can manage this. However, unlike Dark Elves they cannot generate tons of extra power dice, so if you have a level 4 dispelling with Book of Hoeth and a dispel scroll, combined with LD10 protection for Spirit Leech, it shouldn't be a huge worry.

[Seredain]

Hi Labyrinth, thanks for the support.

Yeah Stormie's bang on - Banner of the World Dragon gives us just about the easiest solution to Death magic in the game. Even if you don't switch your cavalry characters into the swordmasters, the archmage with them remains basically immune, and being free to save all your dice (and scroll) for the one target unit (the bus), makes planning your defence much easier.

In this context, remember deployment and the movement phase. Death has a short range: with a scroll and Book it's therefore relatively easy to deploy out of range and then get into combat with your knights before a slow infantry Death caster has time to ruin your day. If he's on a pegasus, meanwhile, you can deploy back and make sure you have enough ranged power to punish him if he tries to stick his head out for a shot at your prince.

[Zihark]

Hi sere been a fan of your blogs for a while and can say I am one of those people that like cav armys just because I am a sucker for knights. I have been playing a cav focused army for a while and I find their are a lot of match ups the big units of cav don't do well against. And as i don't have much infantry its certainly becoming more of a problem as time goes on.

I am still experimenting with my army and might try some of the elements you have mentioned. Although I find myself drawn to pheonix guard more than swordmasters due to how flimsy swordies are. Though i do miss using the cool models I feel I should experiment a bit more with some army ideas.

I am just wondering how you would make your army for a 2k game and if you were going to focus on pheonix guard over swordies how it would affect the playstyle of your army.

[Prince Asarion]

Seredain, been a fan for a long while and played Cav Prince for a while. But a question with the new list. Do you feel like the unit of 5 Silverhelms is actually worth it? I've played with five a couple of times, even in smaller lists where their impact should have been more effective and I feel as though they don't have that critical level of punch to be worth their points as a Unit of 5. While I feel as though their points could be moved around a bit more effectively.

If they're Chaff hunters, could easily shift their points into Reavers, which in my particular style of play is handy (I quite enjoy light cav for chaff hunting/redirecting etc)

[SpellArcher]

In my list under the old book (which had several elements in common with Seredain's) 5-strong Reavers outperformed 5-strong Helms by some margin, which led to me dropping the latter. But Seredain has cavalry characters which can sometimes join the small Helm unit. Plus the new book is a different animal.

[lordoftheshadows]

Hello, Seredain.

I've been using your list for the last week and I noticed somethings. I have found the the chariot and the Swordmasters don't last much past turn 2. The chariot is the most expensive and dangerous target for a cannon or small arms fire while the Swordmasters attract stone throwers like nothing else. This may be meta related but most of the armies that I have faced recently have had a stone thrower or the like.

Do you have a reason you are using a defensive BSB rather than an offensive bsb? For an additional six points you can get: Noble- Star Lance, Charmed Shield, The Other Trickster's Shard, Dragon Armor, Barded Steed. The defense on the offensive BSB is very similar (2+/6+ and charmed shield vs. 1+ and golden crown) but there is a severe difference in their offensive power although the offensive BSB does lack staying power.

Additionally for another six points you can get the Prince a 6+ ward save by giving him dragon armor and the enchanted shield. I found points dropping on Sister. I don't believe that you need you unit of Sisters to be eight strong as they're job is to get rid of regen save while the bolt throwers do the majority of the damage.

[sutilar]

Hi Seredain

Yesterday I fought Beastmens with almost exactly your current army list. The opponent had a 40 bestigor horde (great weapon + heavy armour) and 40 gor horde (2 weapons) with Lvl 4, Lvl 2, Bsb and Chieftain. This was my first game vs Beastmen and I opted to second turn close combat with Swordmasters (inside my two wizards) and Prince (alone; his Silver helms were redirected, but he was able to make alone a charge) against the 40 bestigor horde. 2 turns later the bestigors were broke up and run down (5 silver helms rear charge and Bsb flank charge), but I lost 18 swordmasters and 2 magic phases to cast fiery convocation.
In my first turn he scrolled my fiery convocation -The only solution to kill those hordes was waiting while casting a succesful Fiery Convocation before close combat?

Thanks for reading

[Seredain]

Thanks for the queries guys. I'm on Holiday Part 2 at the moment but I'll have access to a computer tomorrow morning so I'll respond then rather than mash my phone with my idiot thumbs as I'm doing now.

Stormie - Bretts batrep is done but posting will have to wait til I'm back in London. It's a pretty simple lesson in the importance of memory...

Tomorrow: my first game against new lizardmen. SigSlann in medium TG unit, Beasts skink priest, Scar Vet carnosaur, saurus warriors, laser bastildon, ancient steg... Looks pretty mixed.

[Seredain]

Hi sere been a fan of your blogs for a while and can say I am one of those people that like cav armys just because I am a sucker for knights. I have been playing a cav focused army for a while and I find their are a lot of match ups the big units of cav don't do well against. And as i don't have much infantry its certainly becoming more of a problem as time goes on.

I am still experimenting with my army and might try some of the elements you have mentioned. Although I find myself drawn to pheonix guard more than swordmasters due to how flimsy swordies are. Though i do miss using the cool models I feel I should experiment a bit more with some army ideas.

I am just wondering how you would make your army for a 2k game and if you were going to focus on pheonix guard over swordies how it would affect the playstyle of your army.

Hi Zihark,

2k is not a points value I play very much and, to be honest, I haven't really got to the bottom of what to take out. I've used the bus (but with 8 helms), plus 5 helm unit, 18 archers w/ level 2 Heavens (scroll), 17 swordmasters w/ Level 2 High (4+ ward), 10 lions gleaming pennant, 8 sisters, 2 repeaters... Basically the usual list but with a few models taken out each unit, and with no chariot, 2nd eagle or Banner of the World Dragon (quite a big deal when my High level 2 miscast on 3 dice and blew the unit apart - ouch).

This army works pretty well. Last game was against chaff-heavy machine-heavy Savage Horde greenskins, and I was pretty pleased by the way I was able to take all that chaff off the board. But it's tremendously focussed on the princebus, obviously more so than at 2.5k, and that makes me uncomfortable. I might experiment with a hero bus and save the prince for the bigger games...

On the phoenix guard, I think you'll be really happy with them, but you may need to tweak your list around them a little. They don't go anywhere but, against anything but the lightest and fastest troops, they don't have the same damage output as swordmasters. So, look at buffing their killing power. That means Razor Standard instead of Banner of the World Dragon and maybe Beasts and/or Shadow magic to give you spells to increase your strength and decrease your opponents' toughness. If you don't take these sort of spells (and you don't have to), your main elite block will become more of an anvil than a damage dealer (by comparison with the 3 ranks of swords, at least). If so, you'll be looking to your other units to bring more kills in combined combats. White lion and swordmaster units can do this, as can dragon princes.

If you want to check out some posts by people who actually use phoenix guard, though, check out the threads by Tethlis and Ptolemy - they've both used phoenix guard for years and absolutely love them.

Seredain, been a fan for a long while and played Cav Prince for a while. But a question with the new list. Do you feel like the unit of 5 Silverhelms is actually worth it? I've played with five a couple of times, even in smaller lists where their impact should have been more effective and I feel as though they don't have that critical level of punch to be worth their points as a Unit of 5. While I feel as though their points could be moved around a bit more effectively.

If they're Chaff hunters, could easily shift their points into Reavers, which in my particular style of play is handy (I quite enjoy light cav for chaff hunting/redirecting etc)

Asarion this is a good question that I've wrestled with a bit myself. The danger with the 5 helms is that you feel like, with lances and a 2+ save, they ought to be able to take on some stuff. But, really, they can't, and you'll find they're not much use to you until you treat them as the glass popgun that they are (same as the tiranoc chariot, really). What they do do better than reavers is run over things like skinks without getting shot into nothing - the armour save makes them a much more durable anti-chaff unit than reavers. They're also good for running over stuff like light chariots and cavalry, killing dwarf war machines (which might bounce reavers) and reliably adding combat resolution to a larger fight (the 2+ save means you can come into a unit's rear and actually generate res, rather than throw it away on lost wounds). What they can't do in their current form is take on anything by themselves that's even remotely powerful. I charged them at a beast of Nurgle recently and... nothing. Chaos chariots are pretty likely to bounce 5 of them and grind them down. So, I figured that, if I wanted to ever use this unit for combat, it needed a bit of a boost. In my latest list edit (details to follow the lizardmen game), I've taken a knight from the helm bus and added it to this one, along with a standard (paid for by an archer). 6 in 2 ranks with standard should present more of a stand-alone threat to the harder MSU units out there. Against these units, the extra attack and static res from the Banner can make a big difference - winning a small combat like this by 2 points is much better than winning by 1, your enemy having a significantly better chance of sticking and then breaking you.

Basically, I think the 2+ save is great for a small unit that's typically looking to do a lot of work or contribute something in a lot of different combat situations. As SpellArcher says, having that extra unit to deploy your cavalry characters in (and messing up your opponent's deployment plans), is a very handy option in itself. But for dedicated board-support, I wouldn't tell you not to take the more manoeuvreable reavers. I'll have a go with the new 6 helms w/ standard and get back to you on how they run.

Hello, Seredain.

I've been using your list for the last week and I noticed somethings. I have found the the chariot and the Swordmasters don't last much past turn 2. The chariot is the most expensive and dangerous target for a cannon or small arms fire while the Swordmasters attract stone throwers like nothing else. This may be meta related but most of the armies that I have faced recently have had a stone thrower or the like.

Do you have a reason you are using a defensive BSB rather than an offensive bsb? For an additional six points you can get: Noble- Star Lance, Charmed Shield, The Other Trickster's Shard, Dragon Armor, Barded Steed. The defense on the offensive BSB is very similar (2+/6+ and charmed shield vs. 1+ and golden crown) but there is a severe difference in their offensive power although the offensive BSB does lack staying power.

Additionally for another six points you can get the Prince a 6+ ward save by giving him dragon armor and the enchanted shield. I found points dropping on Sister. I don't believe that you need you unit of Sisters to be eight strong as they're job is to get rid of regen save while the bolt throwers do the majority of the damage.

Shadows
You you mind providing your list or a bit more game-detail on your swordmaster experiences? Because with a High archmage w/ Ironcurse Icon in the unit, I haven't found template war machines to be a problem at all. In fact , the only time they've really worried my swords was some months ago when my archmage went blood-crazy and left the unit to chase a Bret lord around the board to snipe him to death with Arcane Unforging (trebuchets made me pay for it). The fact is that, with one of the big High spells selected (or Walk Between Worlds), as well as some targetting Heavens spells (no-one ever wants Iceshard Blizzard to go off), and the Book, it's very easy to force a couple of High spells through (even on 3+ re-rollable from the Book of Hoeth), and give your swords that 4+ ward agaisnt machines. Also you've got a selection of anti-war machine units to hand in the eagles and small helms... What's going wrong exactly?

The reason for the defensive BSB is simple: the prince. This is the character that is going to get into challenges with the hardest enemy characters, and these are combats you need to win. I therefore decided, in the end, that using the BSB to support the prince (via the Other Trickster's Shard) was more important than using a BSB which could add more kills against an enemy unit generally. If you're relying on your Str 7 ASF prince to win critical combats, OTS is a massive item. The defensive BSB build does also have the advantage of making this guy significantly harder to kill. A 1+ save is miles better than a 2+ save against anything other than Str3. And this guy only has 2 wounds - having come from a 2+rr save in the last book, I never felt comfortable with running just a 2+ save in multiple rounds of combat. If your BSB is going to be stuck in combats (and I've always thought the helm bus needs to be able to handle those or else it becomes a glass cannon), the 1+ save is gold. A quick word on sword of might: magic attacks are handy, but getting to keep your re-rolls and the extra save from a shield, every round, makes it more attractive than the great weapon. Being able to take OTS as well makes it a pretty tasty build. The star lance is awesome, but with a Giant Blade in there I feel I can already take on unridden monsters, and a ridden monster will be in a challenge with the prince anyway - where the lance will be useless but OTS will be potentially game-winning.

This is why I don't bother with dragon armour on the prince. A 6+ ward is no use if your BSB is forcing re-rolls. The prince already has the dragon helm for the fireborn rule, too, and it's cheaper than his dragon armour. The Enchanted Shield is, however, important to the BSB build, beceause it's half the points - no room for the helm, but you can take ES on the BSB and then benefit from the upgrade to dragon armour for only 6 points (the prince upgrade costs more than twice that). And, since he's the bearer of OTS, the BSB can actually use the 6+ ward.

Sutilar

By 'current list', do you mean the High/Heavens variant?

In principle, I wouldn't charge a bestigor horde in the front until I'd wiped half of it out with magic and shooting. I think I'd redirect and and focus all of my firepower into that softer horde, smash through that and then come at the bestigors from a couple of angles. Gor hordes can actually act a really nice gateway units to break through a beastman line and cause havoc in the late game: they've got no armour, and they're low inititiative: you can kill them off in droves (and you need to, so you don't get walloped by 2 ranks+ of AHW fury attacks at +1 strength from the Beast Banner). But you need to layer your ranged and combat power for horde-melting. Fiery Convocation is amazing, but it's only one spell. Take others: Soul Quench is excellent against Beasts. Tempest, even, kills a lot of them too (and the hit nerf is usful if you're apporaching them and want to dissuade them from charging until you're ready). With Heavens you might also have Comet to take off more models, and you always have access to at least one combat buff to make sure that combat goes your way (plus Hand of Glory on swordmasters... gor hitting on 5s). Then you have your shooting: arrows and bolts take beastmen off nicely. When you get ready to charge, use as much force as you can, move your eagles in to stop your opponent from reacting, and cram as much into the damaged unit as you can (remember you have archers for breaking steadfast if you need them).

Of course, you'll have other targets for your magic, shooting and combat units. But, if you're looking to break through the line by crashing a horde, the point is to focus as much power on it as you can to basically guarentee that breakthrough. Picking a softer target makes the breakthrough easier and preserves your units for more action later in the game. In any case, though, relying on one spell alone to do the necessary damage can lead to problems: layer your options, and it's much less likely that bad luck will mess up your plans. Once you've broken through and got units on two sides of them, those bestigor become much easier to deal with (and, of course, once you've charged the gor horde you can get shooting the bestigors...). Good luck in future, and keep us posted eh?

Thanks for the posts, all. I'm off to finish my BSB (and repair my prince, again), before the lizardmen game. Work to be done!

Cheers,
S

[SpellArcher]

Stormie - Bretts batrep is done but posting will have to wait til I'm back in London. It's a pretty simple lesson in the importance of memory...

I believe this was the one against Tom Richards, where his list had all the tricks, one of which slipped past the wicket keeper?

It's a good point about lists risking being too bus-focused. I always felt one of the strengths of the old list was the threats coming from different directions.

War machines are a pain in the bum these days. Either they're too heavy to be taken out by normal hunters or they're hidden behind an infantry block. At least with Trebuchets you have a chance to get round behind him...

[Stormie]

Plus you're almost guaranteed to go first which definitely helps avoiding them big 'orrible rocks. I played Tom a few weeks back as well, and he abjectly refused to shoot my Phoenix with his trebs because it would make the game rubbish if he killed it in one go like that. Instead he charged it with 5 basic Knights and ran it down, cheeky bugger...

[Seredain]

That's the one boys! Typing away now..