2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

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Prince of Spires
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2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#1 Post by Prince of Spires »

I had my first battle in a year and a half (or something like that). I'm not sure what happened to 2020...

Anyway, yesterday my High Elf forces mustered for a battle against my friends skaven. After fergie76 posted his monster army list I felt inspired to bring my own. Though, with a points level of 2400pts and different models available I decided to go for Eltharion and a dragon mage instead. I took a slight variation on a list I've posted earlier (here http://ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70700).

2400 pts
Lords
Eltharion on Stormwing, death

Heros
BSB
Barded steed, Heavy armour, enchanted shield, sword of might, dawnstone

Dragon mage
Level 2, dragon armour, charmed shield, starlance, luckstone

Core
22 archers
10 Silver Helms, shields, full command
5 Reavers, musician

Special
19 Swordmasters, full command, Banner of the World Dragon

Rare
Frostheart
10 Sisters

As said a few changes to the original list. For one, more archers and fewer helms. 14 archers don't do all that much. And with three monsters in the list there are very few boots on the ground as it is. So I felt like adding more archers made sense.

I swapped the White Lions for Swordmasters (but kept the BotWD). Facing skaven I felt like I needed the higher volume of attacks more than the higher S. Like HE, skaven are mostely T3, 5+ save models, where S5 is good enough. And for the rest I have three flying monsters.

And lastly, I swapped out the RBT for sisters, mainly since I was curious about their performance, but also again because of boots on the ground. It should be noted here that I forgot that their attacks are flaming, which will matter, but only a little bit...

For spells I got
- Fireball and flaming sword on the dragon mage (which is the best option in almost all situations I think).
- Spirit Leech and Fate of Bjuna for Eltharion. I rolled purple sun, but decided not to go for it.

My opponent brought something like

Grey seer (with stuff and 3 warpstone tokens)
Warlord on litter

BSB
Warlock engineer with doom rocket

2X slaves
35 giant rats with packmaster and a special character packmaster, which gave the giant rats +1 attack
25 clan rats

50 Stormvermin with halberts

6 jezails

2 Warplightning cannons
Doomwheel
Abomination
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#2 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:I had my first battle in a year and a half (or something like that).
Hooray!

Your list is 'small' Rod but in general I like it. All the Monsters are dangerous. The magic isn't amazing but it's functional (don't like the lack of Dispel Scroll though, especially with Dreaded 13th in play). Core looks great, the Archers can be buffed and the Helms + BSB looks quite nice vs Skaven. Swordmasters without Shield of Saphery could normally be an issue because of non-magical shooting but Skaven don't have that. I would have brought RBT instead of Sisters, the range alone can be really important.

The Skaven list also looks pretty decent. The Rares are all dangerous to your Monsters, as are the Jezzails. The Stormvermin deathstar looks good, albeit it doesn't want to fight two or three of your Monsters simultaneously. Storm Banner looks like a big miss, your shooting isn't intimidating but stopping Flying movement could have been key.

Hard to call but it looks fairly even to me.
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#3 Post by MasterOfNone »

Bring it on!
Looking for a good chronicle and some learning on how to fight 'em rats.
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#4 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote:The magic isn't amazing but it's functional (don't like the lack of Dispel Scroll though, especially with Dreaded 13th in play)
My opponent doesn't like dreaded 13th, so he rarely picks it. Which is a bonus. Also, it isn't super scary for this list. Only the SM block is a big target for it. And while they are important, I can survive losing them. The rest isn't infantry. Also, the magic is stronger than it looks on paper. The dragon mage has +4 to cast, which makes it a decent magic phase on the offence. Defensively is where this list suffers magic wise. And while it's fast, it doesn't actually have a lot of character sniping abilities. The monsters are too expensive for that and you don't want to get stuck in a large block for multiple turns.
SpellArcher wrote: Hard to call but it looks fairly even to me.
I had the same feeling, and the battle felt pretty even to me. Which was sort of the aim. I was going for a mainly fun and different list, not so much an overpowered one. With that said, on to deployment.

Image
note, this picture was taken after my opponent already did his compulsory moves T1. The Skaven player started with deploying. Not that it mattered, since he had many more drops than me. So I had to commit fairly early on. My deployment was:
Reavers - Archers - Sisters - Phoenix (slightly to the back) - Swordmasters - Eltharion - Silverhelms + BSB - Dragon mage.

My opponent went:
Warp lightning cannon - Hellpit - slaves - giant rats - jezzails behind the rats - clan rats + seer + character (forgot which one) - Stormvermin + BSB + character with doomrocket - 2nd warplightning cannon - 2nd slave unit - Doomwheel.

Not a lot can be said about the deployment I think. I effectively refused my left flank, since the reavers redeploy fast and the archers are fairly expendable and should be able to hold their own against must things there except for the Abomb. All my heavy hitters were on the right, though the flyers could redeploy in an instant if needed.

Turn 1
Skaven
My opponent wins the roll to go first and moves up. Both the Abomb and the doomwheel roll average and move up at a pace that lets the rest of the army keep up. The whole army makes a slight pivot to aim at my right flank, with the Stormvermin marching full speed ahead. The seer unit moves behind the stormvermin unit, while the giant rats and the 1st slave unit shift more towards the right. Magic sees howling warpgale go up, another spell targets the swordmasters where 1 model manages to fail its 2+ ward save and dies. Shooting, the Doomwheel fails its restrain test and ZZZzzaps the nearby slaves for 3 dead. A warp lightning canon takes a wound off the grifon and a silver helm. The other produces a dud.

High Elf
No flying this turn. The Silver helms charge the doomwheel 9and make it in). I charge the slaves with the Dragon, knowing I will likely fail. But they are in range, and outside the generals LD bubble. They indeed fail their LD 5 test and run back to the forest, the dragon doesn't reach them and walks 6'' forward. The reavers move up just to be annoying. The phoenix stumbles 4'' forward, with Eltharion and the swordmasters moving up to keep abreast with the phoenix.
Magic gives me double 6 for 12 powerdice. I decide to start slow and cast Flaming Sword on the Silver helms (+1 to wound is nice if the doomwheel sticks around) on 3 dice. I proceed to roll double 6 for IF. The miscast results comes up a 9. I manage to roll a 1 for the wound on the Dragon Mage and ward-save the hit on Eltharion, which is lucky. But I do lose 5 dice, effectively ending my magic phase as my opponent can now disspell the rest.
Shooting sees the archers and sisters open fire on the hellpit (remember I forgot that the sisters had flaming arrows). They manage to roll an amazing number of 6's and I get 3 wounds on it.
Combat sees me put a bunch of wounds on the doomwheel for 2 in return. It breaks, I pursue and it's caught. I do pursue into a forest and manage to fail a dangerous terrain test for another dead elf.

Which gives the following end of T1:
Image
Not a bad spot to be in, with the doomwheel gone and the hellpit damaged. Unfortunately, magic was a dud. I had hoped for a bit more damage here or there.
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#5 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:My opponent doesn't like dreaded 13th
This rings a bell Rod, things are slightly less scary. I take the point about how your list could cope with losing the SM's but it would still hurt a lot IMHO. In your shoes I'd definitely be eyeing up a combo-charge on the Stormvermin with them and a Monster or two.
Prince of Spires wrote:Also, the magic is stronger than it looks on paper. The dragon mage has +4 to cast, which makes it a decent magic phase on the offence.
Don't get me wrong, I love me some Fire, those two spells are great and I wish my O&G had access to them. Death spells can also be insanely dangerous. TBH this phase looks like something I might build. What I mean is that the phase has four spells and those are largely set. With a Lvl 4 you'd get to do some in-game tailoring against the specific foe you're fighting and obviously once you get up to six or eight spells a phase waxes in power.
Prince of Spires wrote:The monsters are too expensive for that and you don't want to get stuck in a large block for multiple turns.
This is interesting because I'd have thought they'd be quite content Thunderstomping away, especially your Phoenix. I guess though, that your T5 guys might be less happy than say a bigger dragon might be. Also in this case your BSB is going to take a while to get back to them.
Prince of Spires wrote:Not that it mattered, since he had many more drops than me.
Which shows you've done well there I feel because you've not been out-deployed. I'd just like to say how much I enjoy playing on tables like this. Very clean! Also, wow I didn't realise how much bigger the newer, plastic sculpts are than old Eltharion.
Prince of Spires wrote:Turn 1
Skaven
I'd have been tempted to just sit and shoot those cannon at your Monsters but I guess it makes sense to press that flank your archers are on. Warpgale up looks like a decent return on his magic phase.
Prince of Spires wrote:High Elf
Good charge with the dragon I'd probably not have thought of it. Bit unlucky with the magic but as you say it could have been worse. Nice breakthrough on the right. Gives your opponent something to think about!
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#6 Post by MasterOfNone »

Cool, waiting for the next turns with impatience.
It's amazing how many different builds are possible for an army...
For example, I would have thought of many other things before buying Eltharion on Stormwing.
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#7 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote: This rings a bell Rod, things are slightly less scary. I take the point about how your list could cope with losing the SM's but it would still hurt a lot IMHO. In your shoes I'd definitely be eyeing up a combo-charge on the Stormvermin with them and a Monster or two.
That's the plan indeed. So I'd prefer having them alive. But losing them is not as bad as it would be if I had taken a horde of them. They're "only" 327 pts, which puts them between the characters and the phoenix points wise and they are about on par with them in regards to damage output. Against skaven that is. I'm sure there's different armies which would change that and would make it more or less important to keep them alive.
SpellArcher wrote: Don't get me wrong, I love me some Fire, those two spells are great and I wish my O&G had access to them. Death spells can also be insanely dangerous. TBH this phase looks like something I might build. What I mean is that the phase has four spells and those are largely set. With a Lvl 4 you'd get to do some in-game tailoring against the specific foe you're fighting and obviously once you get up to six or eight spells a phase waxes in power.
Agreed. 4 spells makes for a decent phase where you can expect to get 1 spell cast. It's good utility, but it's not the focus of the list. I think the strongest low-points magic phase we can get is the loremaster. He's only a lvl 2, but with all signature spells he's got the tools to deal with pretty much anything and he's cheap for what he brings. With a lvl4 + a lvl2 you get a stronger phase, but a lot moer points invested as well.
SpellArcher wrote: This is interesting because I'd have thought they'd be quite content Thunderstomping away, especially your Phoenix. I guess though, that your T5 guys might be less happy than say a bigger dragon might be. Also in this case your BSB is going to take a while to get back to them.
It might have been okay in this instance against skaven. But in my experience, T5 monsters aren't meant to charge in alone. The volume of attacks will wear them down faster than a star dragon (you also have a lot fewer wounds), the squishy elves on top will eventually die to all those attacks. And, they don't actually have all that many attacks. Eltharion should be okay, with 8 attacks which will kills lots of stuff. But the dragon mage only has 6, which means that against ranks and a banner (or 2 if there's a BSB) you're only a bad roll away from facing a breaktest. The turn after you charge, you're starting combat resolution at -4 or -5, which is a dicy place to be in. It's the biggest difference with a star dragon list, who can just charge in, get stuck and wait for back-up to arrive.
SpellArcher wrote: Which shows you've done well there I feel because you've not been out-deployed. I'd just like to say how much I enjoy playing on tables like this. Very clean! Also, wow I didn't realise how much bigger the newer, plastic sculpts are than old Eltharion.
Yeah, I think I deployed okay. Of course, it helps that with skaven you get in your own way at some point, where with all the big blocks you run out of space at some point. And It's a joy to play on such a table. I think we need a bit more terrain (and a bit more varied terrain), since at the moment it rarely plays a role other than to trip up elves on horse. But's good fun.
SpellArcher wrote: I'd have been tempted to just sit and shoot those cannon at your Monsters but I guess it makes sense to press that flank your archers are on. Warpgale up looks like a decent return on his magic phase.
Besides the fact that my opponent gets a bit reckless with his army, I think I had him matched for long range threats. Especially if I had been allowed to set up a few favorable charges. Getting all three monsters into one of his units at the same time would have been devastating. Also, with the random movement of the Abomb and the doomwheel you're kind of forced to move with them unless you only want to use them as a diversion.
SpellArcher wrote: Good charge with the dragon I'd probably not have thought of it. Bit unlucky with the magic but as you say it could have been worse. Nice breakthrough on the right. Gives your opponent something to think about!
It's something I thought of in an earlier game (or after a discussion here). If a M2 flying creature can't fly then it's almost always faster to charge something. (assuming it's in the right direction and far enough away to not make it). You're likely to get more than 4 on 3 dice. So in this case it made a lot of sense. They were likely to panic which would push them far enough away to never reach them. It's a fun little trick.

As for the magic, getting only 1 spell off wasn't the end of the world. It was mainly that getting a 12 dice phase and then only casting 1 spell was a bit of a downer...
MasterOfNone wrote:Cool, waiting for the next turns with impatience.
It's amazing how many different builds are possible for an army...
For example, I would have thought of many other things before buying Eltharion on Stormwing.
I should note here that I bought Eltharion because "Oooooh! Shiny model!". Especially because GW was phasing out a lot of these older models and I wanted one.

And I tend to play very non-competitive games and I'm usually better than my opponent, so I can usually just bring whatever I feel like. Which gives these kinds of semi-competitive lists. I don't think I'd bring it to a tournament, but it definitely works find when playing for fun.
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#8 Post by Prince of Spires »

On to Turn 2 (let's see if I still remember everything. I did forget to take pictures, so appologies for that...).

Turn 2
Skaven
Against all expectations, the slave block rallies, and it walks forward a bit to get out of the wood. The abomb moves to face the archer flank and is close enough to likely make it in next turn. The left slave unit moves up to threaten the archers or sisters with a charge next turn. The giant rats shuffle forward a bit. The Stormvermin unit moves forward slightly and the seer unit moves until it's fully at the back of the stormvermin unit.
Magic, I disspell howling warpgale. But I take a wound on the Griffon. Shooting sees the left WLC take another wound off the griffon and the right one kill a SH. The Jezzails kill a few archers. Nothing is in combat.

High Elf
The dragon charges the slaves again, this time they hold. The Swordmasters charge the Stormvermin unit. In other movement, the SH + BSB unit moves around to the back of the forest (there was nothing of interest I could charge). The sisters shuffle a bit to get the abomb in vision again. Eltharion flies forward and positions himself on the flank of the seer unit, pivoted in such a way that the jezzails and the seer unit are in his forward arc. The griffon flies over the giant rats to the left of the skaven army (he had no place to land anywhere else and the stormvermin were out of reach).
Magic sees me cast spirit leech on his general, but I roll very poor on the LD roll and the only wound I do is ward-saved. I fail to cast anything else. Shooting sees me take another wound off the Abomb, bringing it down to 2 wounds. Combat then sees me chew through the slaves, they fail their LD test and explode, killing a few stormvermin and a SM in the process. I overrun into the Stormvermin unit. With the SM attacking, the breathweapon and the thunderstomp, I win combat by a lot, though he kills my unit champ in a challenge. He holds on steadfast.

Turn 3
Skaven
The Abomb charges into the flank of the archers. The slaves charge the sisters. In other movement, the giant rats move forward some more to give them a charge on the archers next turn.
Magic sees him reduce the T of the griffon by 1. Shooting; one of the WLC kills a SH, the other missfires. The Jezzails take a wound off Eltharion. Both he and the griffon are now down to 2 wounds. Combat sees the archers actually deal a wound to the Abomb, taking it down to 1. I combat reform so I have the Abomb in my front arc. He gets a 1 for the type of attack and kills a few archers in return. I hold on steadfast. The big fight in the center sees him kill the mage (I pass my monster reaction test) and a bunch of SM, while I kill some more stormvermin. The Slaves kill enough sisters to win combat and they flee off the board. He pursues them.

High Elf
Eltharion charges the Jezzails, who promptly fail their terror test and run. I redirect into the seer unit. The SH and the griffon charge the WLC (there was no space to fit the griffon anywhere else).
Magic doesn't do much. There is no shooting left. In combat, the archers really step up and deal the final wound to the Abomb, killing it. They reform to face the giant rats The SH kill the WLC, unfortunately, they can't make their overrun into the Stormvermin. Eltharion puts a wound on the seer and stomps a bunch of rats, winning combat but they stick around on steadfast (though he does lose a rank, which impact his LD). In the stormvermin combat, both sides kill more stuffbut he sticks around.

Turn 4
Skaven
He rolls a 1 for his too horrible to die roll and the Abomb disappears for good. The giant rats charge the archers. The slaves come back on and make for the centre. Magic sees him miscast, getting a 7, killing a bunch of clanrats but rolling a 1 to wound Eltharion. The spell gives poisoned attacks to the giant rats. Shooting sees him target the phoenix. He takes a wound off it. In combat the giant rats kill a whole bunch of archers for a few dead in return. I surprisingly hold on a 5. Eltharion kills a few more rats, taking another rank. The SM kill a bunch of stormvermin but all die in return. The dragon kills a bunch for no wounds in return. He fails his (now LD7) test and runs. I pursue and catch them.

High Elf
The dragon charges the seer unit.
The giant rats kill more archers for a few wounds in return. With I think only 2 archers remaining they now flee. The dragon and Eltharion go to town on the seer unit, whiping it out and we call it there. It's close to midnight, he lost most of his army and what remains can't actually do anything against my monsters.

Which gives
Image


Victory for the elves!
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#9 Post by Prince of Spires »

All in all, it was a fun battle. The rolls were fairly even I think, with no major swings one way or the other. I think I got two IF casts and didn't suffer any lasting damage (other than lost power dice), on the other hand, I did manage to fail a few 2+ ward saves and the spells which did go through were underwhelming in effect. So I think it evened out.

One thing which stood out was unfamiliarity with rules. We hadn't played a game in over a year, and it showed in the game speed and forgetting some rules. Of course, skaven are bad in this way anyway, since they're still a 7th edition book with lots of extra rules. In that regard, it sometimes feels unfair to play against all the extra magic items they bring to the table, including things like bonus powerdice etc. I still win though, so it's all good ;) But bringing a special character also added to this, in that they always bring a bunch of extra rules to remember.

It was a fairly even battle I think, until I managed to get my monsters where I wanted them. Ideally I would have gotten the phoenix into combat somewhere a turn earlier. -1S would have made a serious difference in the Stormvermin combat for instance. But part of that was good positioning by my opponent, the howling warpgale spell (which effectively gave the phoenix one less turn of movement), and some bad positioning by me. But with the Abomb and the doomwheel gone, he couldn't do much against the monsters, even more so because the WLC couldn't target them while the were among the skaven units. Also, they're much more mobile and reliable than the skaven rares, which would have let me avoid them for long enough.

As far as Eltharion goes, he's fun. I don't think he's overpowered as a character, but he certainly holds his own on the griffon. Getting the ward-save on the griffon definitely helps make it a viable choice I think. His magic isn't too strong, but 2 death spells are certainly great and they will give your opponent some thought. He's a nice choice to take when you don't want to take an overpowered special character but you do want to add some flavor. I don't think many opponents would object to him (unless they're categorically against special characters).

The dragon mage remains a fluffy choice. He's cool and a nice way to get an extra dragon on the table. But it's a lot of points for a sub-optimal choice. The dragon does fine against small infantry, but as seen, the mage is squishy, even with all the armour I gave him. You don't want to get him stuck in combat for multiple turns. And they will have a tougher time against tough opponents, though 2 ASF S6 attacks with no armour saves on the charge still helps.

The core setup worked. 24 archers is enough to kill stuff (and in this battle they redeemed themselves for all the crappy results they've given me so far, by killing the Abomb). The SH are a nice mobile threat and a good BSB delivery system. Only 1 unit of reavers might be the only negative, since 1 redirector is not that much.

I liked the sisters. They're a bit different from a RBT, though they roughly fulfil the same job in the army, which is medium strength ranged attacks. The bows aren't that much of an issue with BS5, since even at long range you will hit stuff. They did leave me with the feeling that they function better as a larger unit. 10 shots isn't all that threatening. 20 on the other hand... But then, the unit will probably want a handmaiden in there. And maybe Alith Anar, for a truly epic shooting phase (though he might be better in a separate unit...). It's something to experiment with I think.

The one thing I didn't like much about the list was the special choices. With only 1 main combat block the options I had were limited. If my opponent would have been a bit more patient perhaps then I could have been in trouble. Getting the giant rats involved in the Stormvermin combat instead of taking out the archers would have been a better choice. I realize it's the nature of this list, and it makes it a very fun list to play. But it also means that it's maybe not the most competitive list.
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#10 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:But in my experience, T5 monsters aren't meant to charge in alone.
This sounds right. S5 Thunderstomps also aren't as good as S6, though this matters less vs T3 Skaven.
Prince of Spires wrote:Combat then sees me chew through the slaves, they fail their LD test and explode, killing a few stormvermin and a SM in the process. I overrun into the Stormvermin unit.
This was a powerful stroke. How sure were you of getting the dragon into the Stormvermin Rod?
Prince of Spires wrote:Eltharion charges the Jezzails, who promptly fail their terror test and run. I redirect into the seer unit.
Again, this is very bad news for the Skaven.
Prince of Spires wrote:The dragon charges the seer unit.
Adding insult to injury!

:)
Prince of Spires wrote:One thing which stood out was unfamiliarity with rules. We hadn't played a game in over a year, and it showed in the game speed and forgetting some rules.
This is indeed how it goes!

Reminded me of my O&G game vs Daemons. I lost my left flank but killed the crucial enemy units in the centre. Maybe the Stormvermin should have been held back. Jezzails don't hit much anyway and didn't have a favourable shooting position. Still slightly surprised the WLC's didn't achieve more against your Monsters. The Swordmasters died but that let you kill the Stormvermin, which was essential. The Dragon Mage also bit the dust but preserving the dragon means not giving up the points in VP terms. The Archers did really well in a 24, will you stick with that? I agree about the Sisters, 20 is very interesting.
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#11 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote: This was a powerful stroke. How sure were you of getting the dragon into the Stormvermin Rod?
I gave myself a decent chance. They were out of general range, which gave them a LD5 test with a reroll (which has around a 50% succes rate I think). I was fairly sure I'd win combat without suffering much in terms of wounds. Which means they had 2 LD5 tests they needed to pass (one for the terror at the start and one after combat). I feel it was worth the risk. Though next time I'd prefer to charge in with an extra unit. As mentioned, the phoenix was a bit out of position this game. He should have been in either the Stormvermin or the slave combat.
SpellArcher wrote:Still slightly surprised the WLC's didn't achieve more against your Monsters.
It was a combination of things. I think in the first turn he only hit with one. After that he had 1 turn to target them but I think he focussed on the wrong things. And once I was close to his units with them they were no longer smart or legal targets. The griffon has a small base, which means that you're likely to miss it. And with the way a WLC bounces you have a long line (I think it can go up to 20'') where you can't have any friendly models. But I agree. They are most effective against multi-wound models and he didn't prioritise them enough.

Of course, they're also fairly unreliable. I think he once got a hit off which turned out to be S2, then there's always a chance of misfires and the distance is fairly unreliable and random as well.
SpellArcher wrote:The Swordmasters died but that let you kill the Stormvermin, which was essential. The Dragon Mage also bit the dust but preserving the dragon means not giving up the points in VP terms.
Yeah, this was definitely the crucial combat. I think I could have come out even better had I gotten in more units. But I didn't, which with an army as mobile as this was a mis-play by me. With the frostheart in there as well, I think I would have kept the SM alive even. And the monsters in this list just don't give up their points easily against this kind of army if they don't "want" to. T5 with some kind of save and a bunch of wounds is just very hard to deal with unless you have high S attacks. Especially if you add in the high mobility of the list.
SpellArcher wrote:The Archers did really well in a 24, will you stick with that? I agree about the Sisters, 20 is very interesting.
I will definitely try them some more. I feel that a smaller unit just doesn't do too much. I've never had succes with 10 for instance. With long range and S3 you only wound with 1-in-4 and that's a best case scenario. 2 wounds on a unit are not really worth it, and against anything thougher than that you might get one or two in a whole game. Which is just a waste of points. 24 gives you maybe 6 wounds in a turn, which is a considerable difference. It's suddenly something an opponent has to pay attention to. You can't just have your opponent deal out 6 wounds for free each turn, but you also don't want to spend too much effort into getting rid of them.

Another interesting thing about them is that with ASF and martial prowess they actually perform fairly decent against similar units in combat. You get 21 attacks which reroll to hit against plenty of things. 15+ S3 hits is decent for a core shooting unit. It's what let them take the last wounds off the Abomb.

Which leaves me to wonder if a core selection of 40 archers with full command and 2 units of 5 reavers with musician for 600 points might be worth it in a different list. That suddenly becomes a unit worth buffing with magic. The main downside is that it has a large footprint which also reduces the number of models which can shoot. Maybe splitting it in a unit of 20 and one of 21 with musician is the way to go there.

As for the sisters, I think they haven't been explored enough. I think most people decided they weren't good enough, because 10 cost the same as 2 RBT, which give you longer range, 2 more shots, and the single bolt option. And the other rare options we have are amazing. Why bring sisters when you can take a frostheart? I do think GW messed up by not giving them a musician (though perhaps they should have been scouts). But I think 20 will be interesting in a more balanced list, though we might house-rule it that the armour piercing works against all opponents, and not just the forces of destruction (which is a nice and fluffy rule, but also a game balance nightmare in my opinion). Maybe I'll head in that direction for my next list, which would make it very different from what I had this battle (though it should be noted that the next one isn't planned yet).

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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#12 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:Another interesting thing about them is that with ASF and martial prowess they actually perform fairly decent against similar units in combat. You get 21 attacks which reroll to hit against plenty of things. 15+ S3 hits is decent for a core shooting unit. It's what let them take the last wounds off the Abomb.
I was surprised to work out that 10 Archers beat 10 Orc Arrer Boyz in combat, despite T4 and the Choppas rule. WS 4 and ASF matter more. A bit academic perhaps but food for thought.
Prince of Spires wrote:That suddenly becomes a unit worth buffing with magic.
My feeling is the 24 are also worth that and they are quite maneouverable. The Withering, Hand of Glory, Flaming Sword, Soulblight, Enchanted Blades and Harmonic Convergence can all be useful.
Prince of Spires wrote:Why bring sisters when you can take a frostheart?
That is the question. I guess a defensive-minded list at 2400 might like the look of 4 RBT and 20 Sisters. Have you considered the Handmaiden Rod?
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#13 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:Another interesting thing about them is that with ASF and martial prowess they actually perform fairly decent against similar units in combat. You get 21 attacks which reroll to hit against plenty of things. 15+ S3 hits is decent for a core shooting unit. It's what let them take the last wounds off the Abomb.
I was surprised to work out that 10 Archers beat 10 Orc Arrer Boyz in combat, despite T4 and the Choppas rule. WS 4 and ASF matter more. A bit academic perhaps but food for thought.
One thing I noticed about ASF is that it just makes your attacks that much more reliable. It's not uncommon to get 15 hits with 15 attacks when I need a 3+ to hit. I'm (almost) never worried about rolling badly for to hit rolls. I can simply pick up the dice again and roll once more. It really is a big deal, especially for smaller units. With 20 attacks there's a big chance you roll average. With only 10, the results can be all over the place. I feel like the Arrer boys should perform better against armoured opponents. Still, that is a surprising outcome.
SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:That suddenly becomes a unit worth buffing with magic.
My feeling is the 24 are also worth that and they are quite maneouverable. The Withering, Hand of Glory, Flaming Sword, Soulblight, Enchanted Blades and Harmonic Convergence can all be useful.
You're probably right. It's worth experimenting with. Though I think that out of those, Flaming sword is the least reliable option to count on. Fire is a great lore for a lvl 2 because of fireball. I don't like it on a lvl 4. There isn't enough utility in there for a lvl4. Which means that you only have an average chance of actually getting Flaming Sword, so I wouldn't base my list around it. Unless bringing a dragon mage of course. Which reminds me that I should have probably cast Flaming Sword on my archers Turn 1 in this game.
SpellArcher wrote:Have you considered the Handmaiden Rod?
I have, and I'm not 100% convinced. She's definitely a great threat with the reaver bow, even without the potion of strength. 3 BS7 S5 shots are great. But that is all she does. She's then also a T3 6+ save character. Best you can do is something like Reaver Bow, Potion of Strength, enchanted shield for a 4+ AS. But she goes down fast against anything which sneezes in her general direction. She effectively becomes a very pricey unit champion for the sisters. Why not simply take 10 more sisters then for the 145pts she costs? Or 2 RBT if it's high S shots you need?

If shadow warriors were any good, that's where I would put her, with the reaver bow and shadow armour. That would be epic. Hard to catch as skirmishers, deadly at close range, no penalty for movement. I'd play that. Unfortunately, they aren't. Maybe I should make a thread discussing house-rule options for SW. I'd love to give them bows of Avelorn, for those S4 AP shots. But that would probably make sisters obsolete.
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#14 Post by MasterOfNone »

Prince of Spires wrote: If shadow warriors were any good, that's where I would put her, with the reaver bow and shadow armour. That would be epic. Hard to catch as skirmishers, deadly at close range, no penalty for movement. I'd play that. Unfortunately, they aren't. Maybe I should make a thread discussing house-rule options for SW. I'd love to give them bows of Avelorn, for those S4 AP shots. But that would probably make sisters obsolete.
Skirmishing Sisters.
That's what everyone keeps saying they should have put in the HE book. Even better if scouts.
It must have been a very deliberate choice on GW's part, because you can either have the Sister's damage output or the Shadow Warriors' scouting, but not both.
The thing that puzzles me is if the Sisters must be a non-skirmishing type of unit, why can they not have a standard and musician.
AFAIK nobody ever produced an explanation of why the Sisters are not skirmishers, but this strange in-between thing.
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#15 Post by Prince of Spires »

MasterOfNone wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote: If shadow warriors were any good, that's where I would put her, with the reaver bow and shadow armour. That would be epic. Hard to catch as skirmishers, deadly at close range, no penalty for movement. I'd play that. Unfortunately, they aren't. Maybe I should make a thread discussing house-rule options for SW. I'd love to give them bows of Avelorn, for those S4 AP shots. But that would probably make sisters obsolete.
Skirmishing Sisters.
That's what everyone keeps saying they should have put in the HE book. Even better if scouts.
It must have been a very deliberate choice on GW's part, because you can either have the Sister's damage output or the Shadow Warriors' scouting, but not both.
The thing that puzzles me is if the Sisters must be a non-skirmishing type of unit, why can they not have a standard and musician.
AFAIK nobody ever produced an explanation of why the Sisters are not skirmishers, but this strange in-between thing.
The rumour at the time of the book's release was that the sisters were actually skirmishers, which was why they weren't given the command options. It's the same reason why they have bows instead of longbows. As skirmishers, the extra 6'' is easily compensated, and stuff can get into short range quickly. And then they changed it at the very last minute, right before printing the book, and nobody bothered to add in the musician or banner. And GW being GW, they would never admit and correct an error like that, so it never changed. The reason it was changed (at least, as was rumoured), was that they turned out to be too strong with the unlimited reforms and shooting on the march when combined with BS5, S4 AP shots.
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#16 Post by MasterOfNone »

Prince of Spires wrote:The reason it was changed (at least, as was rumoured), was that they turned out to be too strong with the unlimited reforms and shooting on the march when combined with BS5, S4 AP shots.
"too strong" .... I don't know. Certainly HE players would have loved it.
Others... maybe not so much :lol:
They could at least have issued an errata allowing musician and banner (and while they were at it, changing the word "character" to "model" in the description of the Star Lance, so the champion of the Dragon Princes could take it)
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#17 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:Why not simply take 10 more sisters then for the 145pts she costs? Or 2 RBT if it's high S shots you need?
I'm a big fan of characters that improve units. The Handmaiden gives the Sisters Ld 9 which I feel makes them appreciably better at functioning away from General/BSB. Quick to Fire is great here because with 24" range they may need to move quite often to target things properly. They can also Stand and Shoot (quite powerfully) no matter how close the enemy. A unit of 30 with no Handmaiden might be harder to deploy/manoeuvre and more vulnerable to psychology tests.

RBT have more raw power but are static. The Handmaiden is protected by being in a unit but can leave it if necessary to reach a fresh shooting position or to escape the enemy. She has a better chance of surviving to the late game. Her high strength shots are also Magical. Of course, why not take a Handmaiden and four RBT?
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#18 Post by Prince of Spires »

Both options are probably viable. Part of the difference perhaps is that at 280pts, 20 sisters are still only a small part of the overall plan, while at 420pt they become a major part of your army. Another difference between 20 sisters + handmaiden and 30 sisters is that you can split up the latter. I think for HE, going over 20-ish shooting models in a unit doesn't add too much. They become unwieldy and you start losing efficiency. But you could split them 15-15 or 20-10.

Maybe I don't like 30 sisters too much. It's a lot of points in very limited and specialised shooting. But 20 and then spend the 140-ish points on something other than shooting I can see work.

I think the best solution is to get more games in and give the different options a try. ;)
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#19 Post by SpellArcher »

I always feel it helps to consider a concrete list. I've tweaked the rough approximation from the top of this page (courtesy of Lecai and Seredain):

http://ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php? ... start=1560


Archmage, Lvl 4, Shadow, 4+ Ward, Scroll, Ruby Ring 315

BSB, Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone 170
Handmaiden, Reaver Bow, Charmed Shield, Potion of Strength 145

14 Archers, Musician 150
9 Helms, FC 237
5 Reavers 80
5 Reavers 80
5 Reavers 80

21 Lions, FC, World Dragon 353
21 Phoenix Guard, FC, Razor 390

20 Sisters, Champion 290
3 RBT 210

2500pts
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#20 Post by Prince of Spires »

I can see that work. There's a lot of dangerous elements in that list which work well together and in isolation. I would be inclined to swap 1 unit of reavers for more helms or archers. But perhaps with the 3 RBT and the sisters having an extra redirector is helpful. Or maybe drop the archers (since 14 is a bit meh in terms of damage output) and turn them all into SH for a slightly stronger charge.

It's a more patient list then what I normally run. But you can't sit back against it, and going forward will be dangerous against 21 PG and 21 WL.
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#21 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:I would be inclined to swap 1 unit of reavers for more helms or archers.
Me too Rod, maybe it's a matter of taste.
Prince of Spires wrote:Or maybe drop the archers (since 14 is a bit meh in terms of damage output) and turn them all into SH for a slightly stronger charge.
I'm slightly suspicious of a larger Helm unit without inserting more characters. I feel that with the other (formidable) shooting and The Withering there's a multiplier effect and the Archers are quite useful. More would be even better of course!
Prince of Spires wrote:It's a more patient list then what I normally run. But you can't sit back against it, and going forward will be dangerous against 21 PG and 21 WL.
I'm wondering how effectively it could push forwards against a pure gunline. I'm also wondering how Lecai would have deployed it.
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#22 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:I would be inclined to swap 1 unit of reavers for more helms or archers.
Me too Rod, maybe it's a matter of taste.
Prince of Spires wrote:Or maybe drop the archers (since 14 is a bit meh in terms of damage output) and turn them all into SH for a slightly stronger charge.
I'm slightly suspicious of a larger Helm unit without inserting more characters. I feel that with the other (formidable) shooting and The Withering there's a multiplier effect and the Archers are quite useful. More would be even better of course!
You're probably right. I think I'd go with 22 archers, the SH and 2 units of reavers.
SpellArcher wrote: I'm wondering how effectively it could push forwards against a pure gunline. I'm also wondering how Lecai would have deployed it.
With the reavers and SH it actually has 3 (or 4 in the original) very fast units. And the PG and WL probably actually care very little about cannons. The 4+ ward of the PG makes them shrug off the damage and if the cannon is in any way magical (and it often is), then the WL don't care at all.

And 22 archers, 20 Sisters + handmaiden and 3 RBT is pretty decent shooting. That would take out a warmachine a turn or put some serious pressure on the rest of the army. It also lacks some very big targets which make cannons really pay off.
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#23 Post by SpellArcher »

I'm thinking against something like this perhaps:


Lord, Great Weapon, 1+ AS, 4+ Ward, 4th Wound, T6 271

BSB, Stubborn Rune, 4+ Ward (5+ Ward vs shooting in a 6" bubble) 185
Runesmith, Dispel 'Scroll', Rune of Balance 138
Engineer (can Entrench one OG for -2 to be hit) 70

20 Longbeards, Shields, FC, 293
21 Longbeards, Shields, FC, Stubborn Rune 338

Stone Thrower 80
Cannon, Flaming Rune, Re-roll Artillery Dice Rune 150
Cannon, Re-roll Artillery Dice Rune, Hard Cover Rune 170
Gyrocopter, Vanguard 100
Gyrocopter 80

11 Irondrakes, Musician 175
10 Irondrakes, Musician 160
Organ Gun, +1 to hit Rune, Re-roll Artillery Dice Rune 170
Organ Gun 120

2500pts

Initially posted with over 25% in Rare, now amended to correct that.
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#24 Post by Prince of Spires »

It would probably strugle against that list. Then again, I think many HE lists would. The list I used in this battle, with the 3 monsters in it would get ripped to pieces for instance.

It has some tools to deal with it though. The dwarves under no condition can let the HE player cast Pit of Shades. That spell can pretty much end the game T1 of you're lucky with the scatter. Which leaves plenty of dice for Whitering, Pendulum and Miasma.

The main threat for the WL is the Stone Thrower and the organ gun. The PG don't like any of the shooting, but they can survive it in moderation.

I think I would aim the 2 reaver units at stonethrower (or most accessible warmachine), the SH bus at another warmachine and move up the Lions and PG on one flank as much as possible. Shooting the warmachines is hopeless, but 3 RBT, 20 sisters and 20 archers can do some work on the dwarf units. Longbeards have a 4+ AS? Then, pray for two big magic phases and then at the end of T2 it should be clear who will win.

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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#25 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:The dwarves under no condition can let the HE player cast Pit of Shades. That spell can pretty much end the game T1 of you're lucky with the scatter. Which leaves plenty of dice for Whitering, Pendulum and Miasma.
Rocking only one Runesmith is a little risky I guess.
Prince of Spires wrote:The main threat for the WL is the Stone Thrower and the organ gun.
Also the Irondrakes. At S5 AP and Quick to Fire these look very dangerous to me.
Prince of Spires wrote:I think I would aim the 2 reaver units at stonethrower (or most accessible warmachine), the SH bus at another warmachine
For the Dwarfs, I think the rule of thumb 'shoot the fast stuff first' applies here. Might even be worth moving the BSB into the Lions, as only the Stone Thrower is a real threat to him in there.
Prince of Spires wrote:move up the Lions and PG on one flank as much as possible
Interesting. I would expect the Dwarfs to corner.

I found writing the list quite educational. Seeing just what a Dwarf player can and can't put together. As with my Orcs and Goblins (do not rely on Shortbow fire) I'm continually reminded of the importance of range. Quarrellers just seem better than Thunderers for that reason alone. Irondrakes have only 18" but they are QTF and let's face it, the Dwarf player's opponent is probably the one coming forward. Sisters may be BS5 S4 but in my opinion compare poorly with BS4 S3 Archers who are Core, have 30" and musician. This poster used Sisters for some time before dropping them:
Seredain wrote:Perhaps GW didn’t want to step on Asrai toes, but the fact is that a 24” range on a unit that has to wheel and can only move 5” is not what I’d call an adaptable shooting platform. I bow my head to players who field large units and can see, there, the massive benefit of being able to stand-and-shoot in a way that bolt throwers can’t manage. I can also see that having two or more small units of sisters would get much more out of them, since prime targets would be far less able to escape from flaming shots. But, for me, 70 points of bolt thrower is much, much more effective in an all-comers environment than 70 points of sisters
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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#26 Post by Prince of Spires »

The iron drakes sound pretty brutal, though 18'' is a bit limiting. I'm guessing that they're BS3, like most dwarves. Which does mean that even with Quick to Fire, you're looking at 5+ for most shots, or 6+ for stand and shoot, which is a bit over 1 wound a turn I think. You only want to give them 1 or 2 turns of shooting at you, but it's not as bad as it sounds maybe. The two units together will kill 3 SH if they roll well. And another one for the S&S. 4 deaths is manageable. On the other hand, 3 RBT can with decent rolling take out half an iron drake unit. More if you cast whithering.
SpellArcher wrote: For the Dwarfs, I think the rule of thumb 'shoot the fast stuff first' applies here.
I'm absolutely fine with that. If the dwarf player spends a turn shooting Reavers which are mainly there to die then that's a win for me. It's a turn where he's not shooting at stuff that can actually kill stuff.
SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:move up the Lions and PG on one flank as much as possible
Interesting. I would expect the Dwarfs to corner.
Poor word choice on my part (and an inexperience with playing dwarves I guess) ;) It's a bit tricky to talk about specifics without the army actually deployed and terrain there etc. I meant that if the HE player decides to advance, then you want to move them up at whatever target you pick for them asap. And you either want to try to combine them with the SH, or have the SH go for their own targets if you can make it to their warmachines. And given the fluid nature of reavers, it's hard to completely protect your warmachines.
SpellArcher wrote: Sisters may be BS5 S4 but in my opinion compare poorly with BS4 S3 Archers who are Core, have 30" and musician. This poster used Sisters for some time before dropping them:
Seredain wrote:Perhaps GW didn’t want to step on Asrai toes, but the fact is that a 24” range on a unit that has to wheel and can only move 5” is not what I’d call an adaptable shooting platform. I bow my head to players who field large units and can see, there, the massive benefit of being able to stand-and-shoot in a way that bolt throwers can’t manage. I can also see that having two or more small units of sisters would get much more out of them, since prime targets would be far less able to escape from flaming shots. But, for me, 70 points of bolt thrower is much, much more effective in an all-comers environment than 70 points of sisters
He's probably not wrong, though the list I drew up just brings both ;) Which is a thing to note; you can't bring 5 RBT, but you can bring 3 and 20 sisters. So they are a way to increase your more powerful shooting. But the short range hurts them, and not having a musician hurts them.

I do think GW dropped the ball with regards to sisters. They're a unit with a lot of potential, game wise, but they simply didn't deliver. They should have either had longer range, a musician or skirmishing (or preferably longer range and a musician).

A few things to remark:
- I don't play all commers or in a tournament setting. This makes it much easier for me to try these kinds of units. I have just one regular opponent who has a bunch of armies he likes swapping between. But that means I face the same 3 or 4 armies all the time. I don't see min-maxed dwarf gunlines or power demon list or the likes. And we like fun as much as winning. So in that setting they are not all that different from RBT.
- I've never had much luck with RBT. They're about as blind as my archers. Which means they hardly ever do anything of significance. Though again, that might also be down to the armies I face. I see a lot of Skaven, Tomb Kings and Vampire counts, which perhaps are not the ideal opponents for RBT. But the fact that you roll more dice for the sisters also means you're less likely to completely fluff all your rolls. Which helps even things out.

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Re: 2400 High Elf monsters vs Skaven

#27 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:I've never had much luck with RBT. They're about as blind as my archers. Which means they hardly ever do anything of significance. Though again, that might also be down to the armies I face. I see a lot of Skaven, Tomb Kings and Vampire counts, which perhaps are not the ideal opponents for RBT. But the fact that you roll more dice for the sisters also means you're less likely to completely fluff all your rolls. Which helps even things out.
Arguably the key to HE shooting is managing to focus your firepower and if possible, get a spell buff in. Three RBT and 18 Archers with Hand of Glory will hurt most single targets.
Prince of Spires wrote:And given the fluid nature of reavers, it's hard to completely protect your warmachines.
A strong Dwarf player with just cannon and stone throwers will deploy all of them behind his Infantry, practically impossible to get to. Organ guns not so much though.
Prince of Spires wrote:The iron drakes sound pretty brutal, though 18'' is a bit limiting.
It really helps that the enemy is usually coming to them and they don't take the Stand and Shoot penalty. My poor Trolls aren't going anywhere near them!
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