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 Post subject: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:27 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:55 am
Posts: 215
Hello once again everyone! I've been playing enough games recently and plan to play enough in the future that I figure I might as well start up an Army Blog for my High Elves. It'll also give me a place to post pictures of my armies, lists I'm planning on running, and just anything else.

I have a tournament coming up relatively soon that I am trying to get a new High Elf army painted and practised for, so the first part of this blog will be about the buildup to that army. I don't currently have all of the models needed for the army painted and am trying to use the tournament as something to force me to paint them quickly, so the plan is to build a list that includes as much of the list as possible and then steadily replace elements of it as I get new models painted and ready to go.

Current planned list:
Prince mounted on Star Dragon w/ Star Lance, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation, The Other Trickster's Shard
Mage Level 1 w/ Dispel Scroll, Lore of Shadow
Noble BSB mounted on Ithilmar Barded Elven Steed w/ Dragon Armor, Dragonhelm, Ogre Blade, Shield
23x Archer w/ Musician
5x Ellyrian Reavers w/ Musician
12x Silver Helms FC w/ Shields
9x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC w/ Banner of Eternal Flame
5x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC
Frostheart Phoenix
Frostheart Phoenix
2499


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:27 am 
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[Reserved for pictures of army]


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:50 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:55 am
Posts: 215
Game 1: High Elves vs Orcs and Goblins

This was my first game using the new plan, and was against an opponent that is just getting back into WHFB after a hiatus. This was his first game back with O&G, so hopefully we didn't get much of anything wrong rules wise.

High Elves:
Eltharion the Grim w/ Lore of Light
Archmage Level 4 w/ Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation
Noble BSB mounted on Barded Elven Steed w/ Talisman of Endurance, Sword of Might, Heavy Armor, Shield
30x Spearmen FC w/ Banner of Swiftness
23x Archers w/ Standard Bearer
5x Ellyrian Reavers w/ Musician
23x Phoenix Guard FC w/ Razor Standard
10x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC w/ Banner of Eternal Flame, Star Lance
Great Eagle
Frostheart Phoenix
2496

Orcs and Goblins:
Gorbad Ironclaw
Savage Orc Great Shaman Level 4 mounted on War Boar w/ Dispel Scroll, Lucky Shrunken Head
Black Orc Big Boss w/ Shield
Night Goblin Shaman Level 2
Night Goblin Shaman Level 2
25x Orc Big-Uns FC w/ Additional Hand Weapons
14x Savage Orc Big-Uns FC w/ Spears, Shields
25x Night Goblins w/ Boss, Standard, 2x Fanatics
5x Forest Spider Riders w/ Bows
5x Forest Spider Riders w/ Bows
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka
18x Savage Orc Boar Boy Big-Uns FC w/ Spears, Shields
Rock Lobba w/ Bully
Doom Diver
3x River Trolls

Magic:
Eltharion the Grim: Timewarp, Speed of Light
Archmage: Shem's Burning Gaze, Pha's Protection, Net of Amyntok, Banishment

Savage Orc Shaman: Brain Bursta, Hand of Gork, Foot of Gork, Ere We Go
Night Goblin Shaman: Itchy Nuisance, Gork'll Fix It
Night Goblin Shaman: Sneaky Stabbin, Gift of the Spider God

Deployment:
The High Elf Archers with the Archmage inside sat on top of a hill at the far left of the High Elf line. Next to them in line were the Phoenix Guard, and behind them the Dragon Princes. The small shed shown in the picture was declared impassible terrain. Farther to the right were the Spearmen, with the Frostheart in the center of the board and on the Elven right. Farthest to the right were the Reavers and the Great Eagle. The Greenskin line was based on the Spear Chukkas holding the top of the hill with the Rock Lobba behind and the River Trolls in front. The far Greenskin right and left both had Spider Riders and the Greenskin center was held by Gorbad and friends. To Gorbad's right were the Orc Big-Uns and to his right the Night Goblins. The Savage Orcs were behind the Spider Riders and the Doom Diver was at the back in the middle.

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Initial Thoughts:
I really botched the deployment here. My Phoenix Guard and Spearmen are not in mutually supporting positions right off the bat and the Dragon Princes are awkwardly stuck behind the Guard. Furthermore the Archers are too far away from most of the action. My position could turn into a strong refused right flank, but the Orcs out-shoot me by a large margin meaning I've got to attack. My plan is to use the cluttered left table side to engage the Greenskin units separately and try to make maneuvering the massive Boar unit difficult. The Eagle will also try to run right quickly, get behind enemy lines and destroy some warmachines. I also hope to destroy the Bolt Throwers with magic and archery.

Vanguard:
The Spiders got to Vanguard first so they pushed forwards aggressively to get in my face. The Reavers responded by moving to the center to get in the way of the Boar Boys as soon as possible.

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Orcs and Goblins Turn 1:
The Spider Riders on the Greenskin right promptly fail Animosity and charge the Phoenix Guard to the front. Other than that the rest of the field generally advances. Magic is an 8-6 phase. The first Goblin Shaman fails to cast Gift of the Spider God on the Boar Boys, but then Itchy Nuisance goes off on the Frostheart reducing its movement by a massive 6". An attempted Gork'll Fix It on the Frostheart also fails to cast. Hand of Gork is dispelled on the Orc Big-Uns while Ere We Go is cast on the Boar Boys.
Shooting manages to kill 3 Dragon Princes with a direct hit from the Doom Diver and a Reaver is killed by the other Spider Riders.
In combat the Spider Riders are all killed by the Phoenix Guard before they attack.

High Elves Turn 1:
No charges see the Elven line advance. Unfortunately the Great Eagle flies too close to the Night Goblins, triggers the Fanatics and is promptly splatted. The Phoenix Guard turn towards the center to support the Spearmen and the Frostheart flies back a bit more to the center. The Dragon Princes move up to engage the Trolls. The Reavers get into a blocking position for the Boar Boys.
Magic is a good 11-6 phase that puts Speed of Light on the Phoenix Guard, Net of Amyntok on the Doom Diver, and Pha's Protection on the Dragon Princes. A boosted Shem's is dispelled on the Trolls.
Shooting manages to plink two wounds off the closest Spear Chukka.

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Orcs and Goblins Turn 2:
Nobody fails Animosity this time. The Spider Riders charge the rear of the Reavers. One Fanatic kills himself and the other spins backwards right in front of the Night Goblins. The Goblins decide to walk right over that Fanatic and 7 Goblins die in the chaos. The Trolls shuffle slightly and the Orc Big-Uns continue advancing towards the center a bit.
Magic is another good 9-5 phase. Gork'll Fix It is cast on the Reavers and Gift of the Spider God on the Orc Big-Uns. Ere We Go is cast as well with a small bubble, and Foot of Gork on the Phoenix Guard is dispelled.
One Spear Chukka manages to hit the Phoenix Guard with a bolt but the crazy elf shrugs it off like nothing. The Rock Lobba also scatters to only hit one Phoenix Guard who also lives.
The Spider Riders kill 2 of the Reavers at the cost of 1 Goblin but fail to catch the Reavers in the pursuit, putting both them and the Reavers right in front of the Boars.

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High Elves Turn 2:
The Frostheart charges the Orc Boy Big-Uns, but the expected Spearmen support fails to materialize after the Spearmen fail their 6" charge. The Dragon Princes also charge the Trolls. The Reavers then rally to provide more blocking fun. Meanwhile in the center the Spearmen and Phoenix Guard jostle around a bit trying to get into decent placement to face the oncoming hordes of Orcs.
Magic puts Pha's Protection on the Dragon Princes while Net fails to cast. Speed of Light is then dispelled.
The Archers then manage to kill off the damaged Spear Chukka.
The Frostheart was then very surprised to take 2 wounds as I had forgotten the Orcs had poisoned attacks, however, 7 Orcs died as well so the Frostheart won combat. The Dragon Princes wiped out the Trolls and overran forwards.

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Orcs and Goblins Turn 3:
The Night Goblins fail animosity and try to charge the Spearmen but fail forwards. The Spider Riders also charge the Reavers. The Savage Orc Boars are still held up by the Reavers but will hopefully get operational freedom next turn. The Greenskin left also continues to advance towards the center as fast as possible.
Magic is a surprising 8-8 phase after 2 channels for the Elves. Gork'll Fix It goes off on the Frostheart Phoenix while Gift of the Spider God on the Big-Uns is dispelled as is Ere We Go.
The Doom Diver tried to hit the Phoenix Guard but promptly scattered right onto the Frostheart, almost in a perfect plan. However, he fails to hurt the Frostheart after a low number of hits and a passed 4++. Two more Phoenix Guard get splatted by the Rock Lobba and the remaining Chukka misses.
The Reavers manage to kill one of the Spiders but are killed in return. The Frostheart dismally kills only 2 Orcs but is not harmed in return and passes the break test.

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High Elves Turn 3:
The Dragon Princes charge the remaining Chukka while the Phoenix Guard and Spearmen finally form a coherent battle line. Neither can charge into the Orcs to support the Frostheart due to terrain and the Spider Riders. The Archers move forwards to find something else to kill.
Magic tries to get Banishment on Gorbad's squad but it is scrolled. Pha's is then dispelled and Speed fails to cast for a completely defeated magic phase!
Eltharion then proves his worth by shooting a Boar with his bow.
The Dragon Princes then easily kill the Spear Chukka and overrun. The Frostheart Phoenix kills another 5 Orcs but takes an additional wound.

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Orcs and Goblins Turn 4:
The Savage Orcs fail Animosity and they try to charge the Spearmen as do the Night Goblins (the Goblins were voluntary though). Both fail, however, as the charge was quite long. The Spider Riders charge the Phoenix in the flank, and the Boar Boys reform to go after the Dragon Princes, trying to trap them.
Magic sees one Goblin Shaman fail to cast Gork'll Fix It then the next Shaman fail to cast Gift of the Spider God. Brain Busta then miscasts onto the Elven BSB, but doesn't harm him Meanwhile 4 Boars are killed by the explosion.
The Phoenix Guard continue to shrug off the Goblin artillery by tanking the Rock Lobba shot. The Doom Diver then panics due to having Dragon Princes so near and blows itself up.
The Frostheart then got angry and killed all 3 Spider Riders along with 5 more Orcs at no damage.

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High Elves Turn 4:
The Spearmen counter-charge the Night Goblins and the Dragon Princes decide that discretion is the better part of valor and march past the Boar Boys front to get out of their arc. The Phoenix Guard advance in an attempt to get relevant. The Archers continue advancing in their quest to find someone to shoot.
Magic sees Banishment kill 5 Boar Boys. Speed of Light is dispelled, but Net goes off on the Rock Lobba. Pha's Protection also goes onto the Frostheart to keep it as safe as possible.
The Spearmen kill the Goblin Shaman along with 9 Goblins at the cost of 1 Spearmen and the Goblins run. The Spears fail to catch them, though, and instead end up right in front of the Savage Orcs. The Frostheart wipes out what's left of the Big-Uns and also wounds the Black Orc once. The solitary orc decides to run, but is caught. Unfortunately this puts the Frostheart right in front of the Boar Boys charge!

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Orcs and Goblins Turn 5:
WWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My opponent didn't yell when declaring this, which upset me greatly.
The Savage Orcs decided to show the Goblins how to kill Spearmen and charged them to the front. The Boars of course also charged the Phoenix.
Magic saw Sneaky Stabbin fail to cast due to the magic mushroom and it wounded the Shaman. Ere We Go was then dispelled.
In combat the Frostheart killed 2 Boars and didn't take any wounds but all of the Greenskin static combat res forced a break test which the Phoenix failed! And he was about 2" too far from the BSB to reroll! Fortunately I rolled a 10" flee. Unfortunately, the Boars rolled a 10" pursue. The Savage Orcs then proved they knew what they were talking about by killing 6 Spearmen at the dismal cost of only 3 Orcs.

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High Elves Turn 5:
The Dragon Princes and Phoenix Guard both turned towards the remains of Gorbad's Boar unit hoping to catch him next turn. The Archers decided to stay put and shoot.
Magic remarkably saw both Speed of Light and Banishment dispelled with double 6's.
The Archers then shot 3 Boars to death.
The Spearmen continued their embarrassment by failing to kill any Savage Orcs after 3 6+ and 6++ saves are passed. In the meantime 4 Spearmen are killed.

Orcs and Goblins Turn 6:
Here we had an interesting situation. Gorbad's unit barely clipped the back of the last Archer in his front arc, so we decided to dice off to see if he could charge, and in he went.
Magic was a very large phase that put Ere We Go on the Boars, Sneaky Stabbin on the Savage Orcs, and Gift of the Spider God on the Savage Orcs.
The Rock Lobba misfired, not hurting itself but missing its last shot.
The Spearmen then finally remembered how to fight and killed 6 Orcs at the cost of 2 Spears and caught the remaining Orcs in their flight, and overran into the Night Goblins.
The Archers then managed to kill off the rest of the Boar unit leaving just Gorbad and the Shaman, but 5 Archers were killed. No worries, though, they are LD 10 steadfast! They failed. And were run down.

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High Elves Turn 6:
Seeing as there's not much else I can do the Dragon Princes charge the Rock Lobba and kill it. The Spears also wipe out the Night Goblins.

High Elf Victory!

Thoughts:
I really screwed up deployment this game, and that kept the Phoenix Guard out of combat the whole game. The Dragon Princes were also probably not used to their maximum having them just hunting warmachines most of the game, though it was a necessary job once the Eagle died. I think I primarily won this game due to the Reavers keeping the Boars occupied for so long and I chose the right part of the board to fight in, where the Boars couldn't physically fit where they needed to be to get their powerful charges off. The Archers were too far in the flank to work all that well, they could have done better instead of spending two turns moving forwards just to get something to shoot at.
My opponent and I talked a bit about his list and since it was still early he made some quick modifications and we set up to play again, using the same board and I kept my same list.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:58 pm 
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Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12586
Location: Otherworld
You know pretty much what I think about your list already CR, biggest miss is the Scroll in my opinion. It’s arguable whether Star Lance can be taken by a Champion as the item wording refers to ‘character’. Quite clear though that Dispel Scroll and Lucky Shrunken Head can’t be taken together, both are Arcane Items. That’s why competitive O&G lists always have 2+ wizards. The Boar Bus is interesting but it has issues. The troops aren’t that great and 3+ AS on Gorbad is worrying, despite his ASF and the other benefits he brings. Worse, it nerfs his Core. The Night Goblins at least bunker the Shamen and bring Fanatics. But the Orcs are poor fighters and bunker nothing. Buying a big Savage Orc block and foot characters intead would allow for more Rares and the functional (8-9 strong) Troll block this list misses.

I don’t think your deployment was terrible but yes, it might have been an issue. The Archers were a bit stranded but Light is forgiving for range. I felt your opponent should have focused all his shooting on the Frostheart, this posed the biggest early threat to him, though lack of immediate BSB support reduced this. Drawing the Fanatics with the Eagle may not have been such a bad thing, though I felt you would need him to slow down the Boars.

I would have tried to get that Boar Bus moving much quicker and yes, charging with the Spider Riders was a disaster, much better to use the bus and then Reform. As it was you had time to deliver the Dragon Prince attack and sort your Infantry out. As for that failed Ld 10 at the end, at least it didn’t cost you the game! Nice clear report as ever, thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:42 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:55 am
Posts: 215
SpellArcher wrote:
You know pretty much what I think about your list already CR, biggest miss is the Scroll in my opinion. It’s arguable whether Star Lance can be taken by a Champion as the item wording refers to ‘character’. Quite clear though that Dispel Scroll and Lucky Shrunken Head can’t be taken together, both are Arcane Items. That’s why competitive O&G lists always have 2+ wizards. The Boar Bus is interesting but it has issues. The troops aren’t that great and 3+ AS on Gorbad is worrying, despite his ASF and the other benefits he brings. Worse, it nerfs his Core. The Night Goblins at least bunker the Shamen and bring Fanatics. But the Orcs are poor fighters and bunker nothing. Buying a big Savage Orc block and foot characters intead would allow for more Rares and the functional (8-9 strong) Troll block this list misses.


The Archers are new! Also, don't worry, I've got new models in progress right now. I've got a game tomorrow that will feature one, hopefully two new units. After playing three games with the above list I've lost some of my love for the Book of Hoeth, too many times rerolling and getting the exact same roll or worse, so I'll definitely be prioritising the scroll in the future. I wasn't aware of the debate regarding the Star Lance, that's very interesting. As for the Scroll and the Head, that just comes down to not enough games! Fortunately it wouldn't have changed anything as my opponent had two other wizards to take the scroll on. After our second game I did have a longer conversation with my opponent and we discussed combining the two smaller Orc blocks into one large horde of Savage Orcs. I think Gorbad could be a good character against someone other than Elves. His D3 wound axe and ASF have a good chance of killing other characters as long as the other character doesn't have ASF as well. He's also got a pretty good toughness.

SpellArcher wrote:
I don’t think your deployment was terrible but yes, it might have been an issue. The Archers were a bit stranded but Light is forgiving for range. I felt your opponent should have focused all his shooting on the Frostheart, this posed the biggest early threat to him, though lack of immediate BSB support reduced this. Drawing the Fanatics with the Eagle may not have been such a bad thing, though I felt you would need him to slow down the Boars.


Yeah, we talked after the second game about target priority for the warmachines, which definitely should have been the Phoenix. Every wound on the big bird counts a lot and his warmachines had the potential to do a good number of wounds, particularly the Rock Lobba.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:33 am 
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Posts: 215
Game 2: High Elves vs Orcs and Goblins

Here is the second game against the same opponent. We talked a bit after the first game and he adjusted his list a bit. We couldn't do major list adjustments due to time and model availability.

High Elves:
Eltharion the Grim w/ Lore of Light
Archmage Level 4 w/ Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation
Noble BSB mounted on Barded Elven Steed w/ Talisman of Endurance, Sword of Might, Heavy Armor, Shield
30x Spearmen FC w/ Banner of Swiftness
23x Archers w/ Standard Bearer
5x Ellyrian Reavers w/ Musician
23x Phoenix Guard FC w/ Razor Standard
10x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC w/ Banner of Eternal Flame, Star Lance
Great Eagle
Frostheart Phoenix
2496

Orcs and Goblins:
Gorbad Ironclaw
Savage Orc Great Shaman Level 4 mounted on War Boar w/ Lucky Shrunken Head
Black Orc Big Boss w/ Shield
Night Goblin Shaman Level 2 w/ Dispel Scroll
Night Goblin Shaman Level 2
25x Orc Big-Uns FC w/ Spears and Shields
14x Savage Orc Big-Uns FC w/ Extra Hand Weapons
25x Night Goblins w/ Boss, Standard, 2x Fanatics
5x Forest Spider Riders w/ Bows
5x Forest Spider Riders w/ Bows
Orc Boar Chariot
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka
10x Savage Orc Boar Boy Big-Uns FC w/ Spears, Shields
8x Savage Orc Boar Boy Big-Uns FC w/ Spears, Shields
Rock Lobba w/ Bully
Doom Diver

Magic:
Eltharion the Grim: Speed of Light, Net of Amyntok
Archmage: Shem's Burning Gaze, Pha's Protection, Banishment, Birona's Timewarp

Savage Orc Great Shaman: Fist of Gork, Foot of Gork, Ere We Go, Headbutt
Night Goblin Shaman: Gift of the Spider God, Nightshroud
Night Goblin Shaman: Sneaky Stabbin, Gork'll Fix It

Deployment:
To get more manoeuvring room I decided to play on the opposite flank. To this end I put the Dragon Princes on the far right with the Phoenix Guard next to them to push the flank and into the center. The Archers took the center of the High Elf line to ensure they would always have shots and the Spearmen held the High Elf left anchoring by the big rock pile. The Eagle and Frostheart went behind the rock in the early deployment stages to make sure not to give anything away. The Reavers then took the far High Elf left to go hunting for war machines. The Orcs put their Savage Orc Boar Boy unit of 10 on their far left next to the Night Goblins. Right of the Night Goblins were some Spider Riders screening the second Boar unit with Gorbad and the Shaman. The Orcs Boys were just to the right of that with the Chariot to their right. The other Spider Riders and the Savage Boys were off to the far right. The Bolt Throwers were again up on the hill and the other machines were on the ground. I Vanguarded the Reavers far up to the left to get behind the Orcs.

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Initial Thoughts:
This time my deployment was much better. My right flank is very powerful and the Orcs are very out of position with too many slow moving units on their right flank. I'm planning on crushing the Orc left and then sweep up the board engaging each enemy unit as it arrives into the action. The Reavers will sweep far left and get behind the Orc line, this will either allow them to destroy the warmachines or they'll tie up some combat units and prevent them from moving towards the crucial Orc left flank.

High Elf Turn 1:
The Reavers run far to the left as planned, the Phoenix Guard and Dragon Princes take up positions on the hill to prepare to sweep into the center. The Frostheart moves off to the right to support the flanking move and the Eagle shifts onto the rock pile to see where he'll need to go.
Magic saw Pha's Protection dispelled and Net cast onto the Doom Diver.
The Archers then shot one Boar to death from Gorbad and Friends.

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Orcs and Goblins Turn 1:
The Savage Orcs on the far right promptly started to Squabble, making it even harder for them to get to the fight. The Spiders in the center then tried to charge the Eagle. We didn't know if they actually could do this due to the Eagle's perch, but we decided that the Rule of Cool demanded they do it. The rest of the Orc line advanced to get into fighting positions.
Magic was a 7-4 phase that had Nightshroud fail to cast and Gork'll Fix It go onto the Eagle. Foot of Gork was dispelled.
One Reaver was shot off by bows, and a Chukka killed 2 Spearmen. The Rock Lobba then fired at the Dragon Princes and in an astounding failure of memory on basic rules, I forgot Look Out Sir was a rule. Therefore the BSB died. The Doom Diver then missed his target.
In combat the Eagle managed to kill 2 Spiders but died in return. His death then caused the nearby Spearmen to panic, but they only fled 2".

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High Elves Turn 2:
The Frostheart and Dragon Princes decided to charge the Night Goblins in the center. I believed I could destroy the unit and then overrun into Gorbad's unit behind them. However, I made the mistake of forgetting about the Fanatics. 4 dead Dragon Princes later I was less sure of the ability of the unit to win the battle as I had lost my second rank. The Reavers then continued their movement around the flank and the Phoenix Guard advanced forwards to deal with the second Boar block.
Magic then had to be a critical phase to buff my Dragon Princes to give them the win. Fortunately, this worked perfectly. Timewarp and Speed of Light onto the Dragon Princes ensured they would be a much tougher unit. Banishment then went off on Gorbad's unit and devastated it, killing 6 Boars. A boosted Pha's Protection failed by 1 to cast, however, despite the Book of Hoeth.
To make up a bit for the powerful magic phase the Archers fluffed their rolls and didn't do anything.
The Dragon Princes then exercised careful targeting, killing the Goblin Shaman on the flank allowing the Frostheart to hit the unit, and then killed another 12 Goblins on top of that. The Phoenix then killed 5 Goblins, Steadfast was broken, and the Goblins were run down. Unfortunately one Dragon Prince did die, and I misjudged the overrun so that the Princes missed Gorbad's unit. The Frostheart didn't though, and hit the remains of Gorbad and Friends.

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Orcs and Goblins Turn 2:
The Boar Boys counter-charged the flank of the Frostheart, but the Fanatic decided to go rouge and smashed into the Boars and then into the Dragon Princes. Fortunate rolls meant that 3 Boars died while only 1 Prince fell. The rest of the Orc line continued to advance.
Magic was a massive 12 dice phase. Sneaky Stabbin on the Savage Orcs was dispelled, though. Gork'll Fix It on the Phoenix went off and stole a Dispel Dice from me. Foot of Gork then hit the Phoenix Guard, but a high scatter and the ward saves meant only 3 died. Ere We Go went off on Gorbad and Friends as well.
The Spider Riders in the rear killed one Archer and the Doom Diver dropped another 4. Both Bolt Throwers then misfired, one of them taking a wound.
The Frostheart killed the 2 remaining Boars on the front and lost one wound to Gorbad. He managed to hold his leadership, though.

High Elves Turn 3:
The Phoenix Guard charged the rear of the Boars to the Frostheart's flank and the Reavers charged the Rock Lobba. The Spearmen advanced towards the center a bit and the Archers got ready to shoot again. The Dragon Princes shifted forwards to engage war machines.
A small magic phase only put Speed of Light on the Frostheart.
The Archers continued their sad shooting by only killing 1 Orc Boy.
The Reavers then killed their Rock Lobba and overran into the Doom Diver. The Frostheart again took a wound, but in return the Boars on the flank were wiped out, and Gorbad failed his break test so he exploded as the BSB. The Shaman fled and was caught by the Phoenix as the Phoenix Guard reformed.

Orcs and Goblins Turn 3:
The Chariot and the Boys attempted to charge the Spearmen but only the Chariot made it in. The Spiders charged the Archers in the flank. The Savage Orcs continued to push forwards.
Magic saw a Goblin eat a bad mushroom wounding himself and ending the phase.
Combat had the Reavers kill the Doom Diver and reform. The Chariot then rolled poorly and only killed 2 Spearmen while taking a wound in return. The Chariot broke from combat but wasn't caught. The Spider combat saw no casualties and the Archers turned to face.

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High Elves Turn 4:
The Phoenix Guard and Spearmen both went into the Boys and the Reavers charged one of the Bolt Throwers. The Frostheart re-positioned in case it was needed.
Magic put Speed of Light on the Spearmen.
The Elves dropped 16 Orcs in CC at the cost of 1 Spearmen and 1 Phoenix Guard, and they then caught the Orcs in the pursuit with the Phoenix Guard overrunning into the Spiders.

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Orcs and Goblins Turn 4:
The Savage Orcs squabbled in Animosity again, both spells were dispelled, and the Spider Riders were wiped out. The Bolt Thrower was also killed by the Reavers.

At this point due to time and the Greenskins only having 14 Savage Orcs, a damaged Chariot, a Bolt Thrower, and a 1 wound Shaman left the game was called as a High Elf victory.

Thoughts:
My deployment this game was quite good, and my opponent's was lacking as a lot of his units would take too long to get into the battle. The weakness of the two smaller Orc blocks was also shown again. We discussed the tactics quite a bit afterwards and the list, and my main suggestions were that the Orc blocks should have been combined and he needed something shooty or fast CC to protect the warmachines. The Frostheart should also have been targeted heavily with the warmachines. My largest mistake game wise was the Night Goblin charge. It ended up working out, but had the magic phase not been so successful it could have ended very differently as I had forgotten about the Fanatics. Also, only one Fanatic had gone after the Princes, the other tried to hit the Frostheart but fell short. Had both hit the Princes then the 4D6 hits would likely have wiped out the Dragon Princes or at least ensured they could not win the combat against the Night Goblins at which point the Boar units would have charged in and changed the game a lot. It ended up working in my favor, but that was more luck than skill and I believe it was not a good charge to make.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:48 pm 
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Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12586
Location: Otherworld
CaledorRises wrote:
The Archers are new!

Sorry!

CaledorRises wrote:
I wasn't aware of the debate

Some points were made here:

viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584&start=1470

As for Gorbad, ASF is great, he goes first! But he lacks the high initiative for those killer re-rolls vs enemy characters. He’s also S5 after round 1. He’s fine vs S5/6 Heroes but S7 Lords negate T5 and the 3+ save entirely. A 375pt guy really needs to hold his own there.

I’m not sure splitting the Boars was a good move, my instinct would be to do it 13-5, 10 seems too small. I agree your deployment was better. Your Reavers really went where they pleased, playing O&G I really miss the archery to deal with Fast Cavalry and such, so you’ve given me an idea for my own list! Losing your BSB like that, ouch! I thought it really risky to stick the Night Goblins out like that but it was obviously double-edged. Once you detonated Gorbad the game looked over. I think Mangler Squigs would help your opponent with board control and a big Troll unit would add some very useful muscle.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:36 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
As for Gorbad, ASF is great, he goes first! But he lacks the high initiative for those killer re-rolls vs enemy characters. He’s also S5 after round 1. He’s fine vs S5/6 Heroes but S7 Lords negate T5 and the 3+ save entirely. A 375pt guy really needs to hold his own there.

I’m not sure splitting the Boars was a good move, my instinct would be to do it 13-5, 10 seems too small. I agree your deployment was better. Your Reavers really went where they pleased, playing O&G I really miss the archery to deal with Fast Cavalry and such, so you’ve given me an idea for my own list! Losing your BSB like that, ouch! I thought it really risky to stick the Night Goblins out like that but it was obviously double-edged. Once you detonated Gorbad the game looked over. I think Mangler Squigs would help your opponent with board control and a big Troll unit would add some very useful muscle.


Yeah, the lack of rerolls does hurt, but I still think he could do fairly decent in most challenges as he'll fight first or at the same time as anyone else and he's got enough attacks that a few will hit. All he needs is one wound to be unsaved and he could kill most characters due to D3 wounds. Of course with the low strength high armor and ward save enemies will cause him problems. His biggest weakness I think is to R&F. I still like him in a themed list, though, and his ability to bring lots of Big Uns along could be interesting.

I was thinking along the lines of creating a mobile hammer with the Chariot and both Boar units while the Goblins and Orcs tie down the enemy to the front. I'm not sure 5 Savage Orc Boar Boys is a worthwhile unit, they are too easy to kill and don't hit amazingly hard for that. Mangler Squigs would definitely help, I did suggest that. Pump Wagons would also be very fun, but that might just be my bias, I really want to make an army with a ton of Pump Wagons because I think it would be hysterical to play.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:55 pm 
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Game 3: High Elves vs Skaven

My game yesterday was postponed to next Sunday, but I've fortunately got another report still to write! Next Sunday will be against Chaos and I've been warned that it's 2500 pts with 28 models, 10 of which are Chaos Hounds and one is a Nurgle Daemon Prince, as it's a Tournament list that will be going to Hockley. I've faced the Daemon Prince once, and it didn't go well. It'll be interesting.

My list is the same as last time, but this will be the last report for a while using this list as I've managed to paint up 5 Dragon Princes and will shortly have my second Frostheart ready.

High Elves:
Eltharion the Grim w/ Lore of Light
Archmage Level 4 w/ Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation
Noble BSB mounted on Barded Elven Steed w/ Talisman of Endurance, Sword of Might, Heavy Armor, Shield
30x Spearmen FC w/ Banner of Swiftness
23x Archers w/ Standard Bearer
5x Ellyrian Reavers w/ Musician
23x Phoenix Guard FC w/ Razor Standard
10x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC w/ Banner of Eternal Flame, Star Lance
Great Eagle
Frostheart Phoenix
2496

Skaven:
Grey Seer mounted on Screaming Bell w/ Earthing Rod, Skalm, Fencers Blades
Chieftan BSB w/ Armor of Silvered Steel, Great Weapon
Plague Priest Level 1 mounted on Plague Furnace w/ Plague Censor, Talisman of Preservation
Warlock Engineer w/ Doomrocket, Warp Musket
35x Skaven Slaves w/ Musician
35x Skaven Slaves w/ Musician
30x Clanrats FC w/ Ratling Gun
30x Clanrats FC w/ Ratling Gun
39x Clanrats FC w/ Spears
5x Poison Wind Globadiers w/ Poison Wind Mortar
5x Poison Wind Globadiers w/ Poison Wind Mortar
Rat Dart
Rat Dart
40x Plague Monks FC w/ Plague Banner
Warp Lightning Cannon

Magic:
Eltharion the Grim: Shem's Burning Gaze, Speed of Light
Archmage: Birona's Timewarp, Banishment, Net of Amyntok, Pha's Protection

Plague Priest: Pestilent Breath
Grey Seer: Plague, Blessed with Filth, Wither, Warp Lightning

Deployment:
We decided to do Blood and Glory again, this time actually having the correct Breaking Point of 3. We both started with 7 points. I put the Reavers on the far Elven left to flank around with the Dragon Princes next to them and the Phoenix Guard making the Elven left the hammer. The Archers were to their right and the Spearmen held the Elven right flank. The Phoenix and Eagle were both deployed in the center of the board behind a building early on to not give anything away. The Skaven put the Warp Lightning Cannon in their far left rear and then a unit of Slaves and a Rat Dart on their far left with the Bell, a Clanrat unit, and the other Slaves holding the center from left to right. The Globadiers were behind this line. The Plague Monks and the other Clanrats and the Rat Dart were on the Skaven right to engage the powerful Elven left.

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Initial Thoughts:
My plan is to use the Spearmen to hold the center of the line with the Archer support and then advance the Phoenix Guard and the Dragon Princes forwards. I'm hoping to sweep the Skaven right and have the Dragon Princes then turn up behind the Skaven center. The Phoenix Guard can either advance to engage the center to the front or help the Princes engage the Skaven right. I vanguarded my Reavers up on the flank.

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High Elves Turn 1:
Most of the line shuffles forwards, the Frostheart flies far to the left to get out of WLC danger. The Eagle flies far to the right to set up a charge against the WLC. The Reavers turn the enemy flank and prepare to engage the Ratling Gun or something similar. The Phoenix Guard turned towards the center.
Magic was 9-6, Shem's on the Ratling Gun was dispelled and then Timewarp on the Dragon Princes promptly miscast on 3 dice killing 6 Archers. Net of Amyntok then went off on the Screaming Bell unit.
The Archers did what the Mage could not and killed the Ratling Gun in the center.

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Skaven Turn 1:
No charges. The Bell unit failed to pass their Strength test and the Grey Seer did not move. The Skaven right quickly marched forwards to turn the Elven right. The Skaven center remained static because of the Bell, and the Skaven left advanced and fanned out to get the Plague Monks into position.
Magic is 8-7 and Wither cannot be cast due to the Net of Amyntok. Warp Lightning then fails to cast with a truly terrible roll.
Shooting sees the Doom Rocket overshoot its intended target of Phoenix Guard but land in the Dragon Princes killing 2 of them. The Ratling Gun then shoots 2 Phoenix Guard down and one Mortar misfires while the other hits the Phoenix Guard but causes no casualties. The Warp Lightning Cannon kills the Great Eagle threatening it.

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High Elves Turn 2:
The most important move of the game is made. The Phoenix Guard and Dragon Princes both charge the Plague Monks as I figured this was my best single chance of defeating them in the whole game as they would be unsupported for several rounds of combat minimum and the Elven units were as close to full strength as they'd ever be. The other units shuffle around and the Frostheart moves up behind the ensuing combat.
Magic puts Net back on the Bell's unit as it worked so well last turn. Pha's Protection went onto the Dragon Princes.
The Archers shot the center Mortar to death to continue to reduce Skaven firepower.
Combat saw one Dragon Prince fall to the Plague Censor and 2 Monks die. The Dragon Princes and Guard combined cut down 12 Plague Monks but the Plague Priest passed all 3 of his Ward Saves to stay alive. Things then go very wrong when the Plague Monks attack and kill 1 Phoenix Guard and 4 Dragon Princes with a very surprising number of failed 2+ armors. A further Prince falls to the Plague Wrecker and the BSB takes a wound. The plan was showing serious signs of imminent failure.

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Skaven Turn 2:
No charges. The Bell managed to move forwards and the center began to wheel in. The Slaves on the flank continued their advance. The Clanrats on the far right moved forwards to hopefully charge the Elves in the flank.
Magic is a massive 12-6 phase. However, things don't go as planned. Wither on the Guard is dispelled, a boosted Warp Lightning on the Frostheart fails to wound it and the Grey Seer and the Bell both take a wound from the miscast with 3 Clanrats dying as well and the rest of the dice are lost. The Screaming Bell then rings and brings down the tower on the far right of the board and kills 2 more Clanrats.
The Poison Wind Mortar that is still alive kills 6 Spearmen with a perfect hit. The Engineer then shoots himself in the foot with the Warp Musket taking a wound, and some Globadiers kill a Reaver. The WLC then fails to hit the Frostheart.
Combat sees Eltharion take a wound from the fumes, however he cuts down the Plague Priest in return. Only 8 more Monks die, but they only kill 2 Phoenix Guard. Then they drop the Wrecker. Suddenly 7 more Phoenix Guard are squished. Tie combat.

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High Elves Turn 3:
The Reavers charge the Globadiers, and the Spearmen and Frostheart foolishly take the bait and charge the Slaves to their front.
Magic is a 10-7 phase that puts Timewarp on the Guard to increase their killing power, but it miscasts on 3 dice and kills 3 more Archers and 6 dice. The last die is used to cast a spell but 7 dispel dice end that.
The Archers, seemingly annoyed at the Mage constantly blowing them up, only kill 2 Clanrats. The Grey Seer then drinks the Skalm to heal.
The Spearmen kill 7 Slaves and the Frostheart kills 4. The Slaves drop 2 Spearmen and then in a horrible insult wound the Frostheart. The Slaves then explode and in an even bigger insult the explosion wounds the Frostheart again and kills another Spearman. The Spears reform and the Frostheart overruns into the Clanrats. The Reavers kill 3 of the Globadiers but fail to run them down. The Fumes of the Furnace are finally too much and both Dragon Princes and the BSB die to them along with one Phoenix Guard. The Phoenix Guard then only kill 4 Monks and Eltharion wounds the Furnace twice. 2 more Guard then are killed by the Wrecker.

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Skaven Turn 3:
The Bell charges the Spearmen as expected and the Globes rally. The Slaves finally make it near the Archers and get ready to charge them next turn.
Magic is 9-6 and sees Blessed with Filth go on the Clanrats, but Wither is dispelled.
The Mortar misses his shot while one Globadier kills himself.
One Guard drops to the fumes, and then they kill 9 Monks and wound the Furnace once more. Another 4 Guard die to the Wrecker and Monks, though. The Spearmen then decide to sacrifice themselves but try to bring the Grey Seer with them. 17 attacks later and not a single wound was rolled against the Grey Seer. The other Spearmen in the unit kill 2 Clanrats. 9 Spearmen are in return killed and the unit breaks. The bell then reforms to engage the Frostheart, who killed 8 Clanrats.

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High Elves Turn 4:
The Spears rally and Archers reform.
Magic is a 10-5 phase and of course Speed of Light miscasts on 3 dice, wounding the Archmage and losing 4 dice. Net of Amyntok and Pha's Protection are then dispelled by the dominant Skaven magic.
the Phoenix Guard kill 1 Monk and wound the Furnace once but the last of them succumb to the Monks and with that the Elven army breaks.

Crushing Skaven victory!

Thoughts:
Well. That went poorly. I lost the game on my turn 2, after that it was just technically making me lose. My charge against the Monks was the game ending moment. I think I could have done much better if I had used the Reavers to screen the Monks a bit and used the Timewarped Princes to move into the center as fast as possible to simply avoid the Monks as long as possible. I realized after the game that had I destroyed the Screaming Bell unit I would have won as it had 4 points in it. The Princes and Phoenix Guard certainly have the potential to do that, but only if they get there soon and the Monks are kept out of action for longer. The Eagle should probably not have been on anti-WLC duty and instead could have tried to help the Reavers play interference with the Monks.
Had the charge against the Monks still been done I still think I had a chance. The massive mistake in that combat was not killing the Furnace immediately. I mistakenly thought that it had a 4+ Ward like the Bell, and by the time I realized that it didn't and started attacking it I only had Eltharion swinging at it and he wasn't rolling well, meaning I just didn't have time to kill it. If all the Dragon Princes that could have attacked did go after the Furnace on round 1 I might have killed it, and then I probably would have won in a few rounds as it was the Fumes and the Wrecker that absolutely decimated my units.
I then made the mistake of panicking and sending the Spears and Frostheart into the Slaves. This of course would mean the destruction of the Spears as they had nowhere to go to escape the Bell. Instead they should have reformed to face the incoming flanking Slaves and the Frostheart should have gotten into the rear of the Furnace and charged it the next turn. The extra attacks would give me a solid chance of bagging the Furnace and the Monks and would at least mean that my defeat wasn't as massive, which would be important in a tournament like the one coming up in Hockley.
On the whole I think this game was a very wonderful example of how not to fight Skaven! I'll do better next time, and I think I learned a decent amount from all my mistakes, so I hopefully won't repeat them.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:19 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
I was thinking along the lines of creating a mobile hammer with the Chariot and both Boar units while the Goblins and Orcs tie down the enemy to the front. I'm not sure 5 Savage Orc Boar Boys is a worthwhile unit, they are too easy to kill and don't hit amazingly hard for that.

It’s arguable whether 18 is a good size. But I feel 13 is definitely better than 10 which is too fragile, security for those Lords is really important. Neither the 8 nor the 5 fight especially well. But both can deal with light threats and crucially, the 5 are semi-disposable.

CaledorRises wrote:
Next Sunday will be against Chaos and I've been warned that it's 2500 pts with 28 models, 10 of which are Chaos Hounds and one is a Nurgle Daemon Prince, as it's a Tournament list that will be going to Hockley. I've faced the Daemon Prince once, and it didn't go well. It'll be interesting.

This is the kind of game where RBT and World Dragon would make a big difference. Punching through that Toughness and armour is paramount.

As for the Skaven, both lists look pretty familiar. I quite liked your deployment CR but my immediate thought was “Can the PG handle the Furnace?”. Your plan seemed to be going well, with the Bell stymied and two units into the Monks. It just turned into a bad grind though. I think you’re dead right, the Phoenix would have made all the difference there. Your other plan, of going after the Bell, was interesting. I guess then you Net the Furnace instead?

How do you feel about the Archers thus far?

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:09 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
It’s arguable whether 18 is a good size. But I feel 13 is definitely better than 10 which is too fragile, security for those Lords is really important. Neither the 8 nor the 5 fight especially well. But both can deal with light threats and crucially, the 5 are semi-disposable.


Yeah, the reasoning for dropping the 18 was that it was too ponderous of a unit to maneuver around. The smaller units definitely did lose durability in the game. The 5 being semi-disposable is a good point, they can charge in and do some damage but it's not terrible if they die.

SpellArcher wrote:
This is the kind of game where RBT and World Dragon would make a big difference. Punching through that Toughness and armour is paramount.


The World Dragon I definitely agree with, but I don't want to tailor my list too heavily to fight this game because I'm not a big fan of list tailoring, and my planned tournament list doesn't feature the BotWD. Adding in the Banner is possible, but I'm not certain where I'd get the 50 points needed to do so, the list is quite tight as is.
RBTs would also help, but I'm hoping to engage the DP in combat and kill him there as opposed to range. I'm thinking of bringing almost my full Hockley list to the game Sunday and will proxy my Dragon Mage as a Prince on Star Dragon as my Prince is still on the painting table. I think the Star Dragon Prince has a decent chance against the Daemon Prince in CC, and if I can get a Frostheart into the combat as well I think I'll have the Daemon Prince beat, but it will take tricky movement to do as my opponent will definitely do everything to stop me from getting both the Dragon and a Phoenix in.
I'm expecting the classic Daemon Prince build of Scaly Skin, Level 4 Death, Charmed Shield, Sword of Striking, and Soul Feeder. If I can miscast Miasma onto him it would help a good deal, so long as I reduce the WS by at least 2. I think I can knock off the Charmed Shield with Archer fire hopefully.
I'm not sure what to expect from the rest of the list, my guess was Chariots and Skullcrushers due to the low model count, but I'm not certain. Against Chariots it'll be key to not give them the charge, and Skullcrushers are tricky. Last time I faced the Daemon Prince I managed to flank charge a unit of 4 Skullcrushers with my Dragon Princes and ran them down, but I'm not extremely confident of doing that again as my opponent made a mistake leaving his flank open like that. A Chimera could also show up which I'd plan to bring down with the Flaming Banner DPs or just throw a Frostheart at it until it dies, but that might not be the best use of a Frostheart and could take some time.

SpellArcher wrote:
Your other plan, of going after the Bell, was interesting. I guess then you Net the Furnace instead?


Yeah, I'd Net the Furnace as much as possible and then use the Reavers to direct them away. In that version of events I'd also probably not send the Eagle after the WLC but use it with the Reavers to block up the Monks as long as possible.

SpellArcher wrote:
How do you feel about the Archers thus far?


I'm not sure. Against the Orcs they were a mixed bag, they managed to take out one warmachine and then killed a decent number of Boars and would have done more if not for poor positioning, but in the next game they were almost useless. I also didn't like the big unit against the Skaven because I overkilled the Ratling Gun and Mortar several times over and would much rather have had two MSU archer units. Of course at the same time the weakness of that is that it's easier for the opponent to score points by killing the smaller units and they are more vulnerable to panic. I think I'll keep them in the list, but I'm unsure if I want to break it into a unit of 10 and a unit of 13 to be able to target multiple things. Also if I'm shooting a Daemon Prince to strip off Charmed Shield it might be better to try and have two small units so that I'm not wasting all my dice on an attack that has an extremely low likelihood of wounding him.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:38 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
The World Dragon I definitely agree with, but I don't want to tailor my list too heavily to fight this game because I'm not a big fan of list tailoring, and my planned tournament list doesn't feature the BotWD. Adding in the Banner is possible, but I'm not certain where I'd get the 50 points needed to do so, the list is quite tight as is.

I guess I was talking in general terms CR. World Dragon makes most sense in Silver Helm Bus, Swordmasters or Lions, none of which feature in your list. RBT would strengthen it I feel but I understand they’re not part of the current plan. They’re basically all about restricting what the WoC can do here. Your tournament list on the other hand fights fire with fire and pretty well too. Nothing he’s got can handle the Star Dragon 1-on-1.

CaledorRises wrote:
I'm expecting the classic Daemon Prince build of Scaly Skin, Level 4 Death, Charmed Shield, Sword of Striking, and Soul Feeder. If I can miscast Miasma onto him it would help a good deal, so long as I reduce the WS by at least 2. I think I can knock off the Charmed Shield with Archer fire hopefully.

Dragonbane Gem too I suspect. Good point about the archery.

CaledorRises wrote:
Against Chariots it'll be key to not give them the charge

Agreed. The good thing is you’ll likely get an extra turn to deal with these because they can’t March.

CaledorRises wrote:
Skullcrushers are tricky.

They demand respect but they’re not the terror they were when the WoC book first dropped. Your mobility looks very helpful against them.

CaledorRises wrote:
I'm unsure if I want to break it into a unit of 10 and a unit of 13

It’s a tricky call, there are advantages both ways. Of course a smaller unit can be sacrificed at a pinch and here that might exploit Skullcrusher Frenzy by forcing an Overrun for example.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:55 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
I guess I was talking in general terms CR. World Dragon makes most sense in Silver Helm Bus, Swordmasters or Lions, none of which feature in your list. RBT would strengthen it I feel but I understand they’re not part of the current plan. They’re basically all about restricting what the WoC can do here. Your tournament list on the other hand fights fire with fire and pretty well too. Nothing he’s got can handle the Star Dragon 1-on-1.


Ah, yeah, I definitely agree. A unit of Swordmasters with the BotWD would be very fun to use to face WoC, the Daemon Prince has trouble with them, and then all the Ensorcelled Weapons on the cavalry would be eliminated from concern, I think every attack out of Skullcrushers is magical, unless they buy lances, but no one ever buys lances. The RBTs would also be great against a low model count army like that that relies on the high armor save of Skullcrushers, Chaos Knights, Chariots, Daemon Princes and things like that. I do plan to run a list like that at some point, but right now all my painting efforts are going into this tournament list, and once that's done I think I'll have to take a break from painting Fantasy and go back to historicals for a while, then when I come back my Lizardmen army is in need of some loving, particularly in the area of a second Carnosaur.

SpellArcher wrote:
Agreed. The good thing is you’ll likely get an extra turn to deal with these because they can’t March.


I'll be interested to see how much he's actually hampered by that, though. From what I'm expecting out of him his list will be almost entirely close combat, though I'm concerned about the possibility of a Hellcannon, and if it's almost entirely CC normally that would mean he's got to aggressively attack, but at the same time my list is virtually all CC as well, which might make it easier for him to reign the advance in and keep the army together since he knows I need to close with him just as much as he needs to close with me. My army should be a good deal faster than his, though, for the most part, which does give me an advantage if he decides to play a big more cautiously. Unfortunately I won't have the Silver Helms, I'll still be using Spearmen, because of the Helms being behind my Star Dragon on the painting list. That could be not too bad, though, since the Spearmen could provide good static CR against many things, though unfortunately they'd also offer easy CR for an enemy as they're so frail.

SpellArcher wrote:
It’s a tricky call, there are advantages both ways. Of course a smaller unit can be sacrificed at a pinch and here that might exploit Skullcrusher Frenzy by forcing an Overrun for example.


That's a very interesting idea that I hadn't considered. Forcing an awkward overrun with a small Archer unit could work well, and could be used against Chariots if he runs the MoK as well. Of course now the question of splitting the archers up comes right as I just got a new movement tray in for my 8x3 formation. I've got another game tomorrow against Greenskins, I'll see how the archers perform there, and hopefully that'll give me the push to decide how I'll run them against Chaos on Sunday.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:56 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
A unit of Swordmasters with the BotWD would be very fun to use to face WoC

The real peach is vs Daemons.

:)

CaledorRises wrote:
The RBTs would also be great

4 RBT really restrict the Daemon Prince’s movement. At least your Flyers exert substantial charge threat zones.

CaledorRises wrote:
historicals

Which period?

CaledorRises wrote:
Spearmen

Yeah, these don’t tend to enjoy combat vs WoC. Though I have seen players shrug and reflect that a Core unit is keeping the enemy’s best stuff busy for a while. With Spears present, you don’t need the Archers to provide ranks of course. If those are absent from your long-term list maybe the single unit is better there?

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:40 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
The real peach is vs Daemons.

:)


At that point it just seems a bit mean, though. Not that I wouldn't have a giant grin as my Swordmasters sent dozens of daemons back into the warp...

SpellArcher wrote:
Yeah, these don’t tend to enjoy combat vs WoC. Though I have seen players shrug and reflect that a Core unit is keeping the enemy’s best stuff busy for a while. With Spears present, you don’t need the Archers to provide ranks of course. If those are absent from your long-term list maybe the single unit is better there?


That's a good point about the ranks, but I also feel that if my Archers are getting into combat then something has probably gone wrong.

SpellArcher wrote:
Which period?


I've got 28mm Romans, 15mm and 28mm American Civil War, and 15mm and 28mm World War II as my primary ones. I've got a couple of 1/1200 sailing ships for the Warhammer Historical game Trafalgar that I think was a really good game and have wanted to get into Napoleonics for a while as well as English Civil War. My biggest collection is 15mm WWII, and that's actually the system that I started wargaming with, I played Flames of War 1st-3rd editions, then dropped that when it turned into too much of a tanks-only game as that just isn't historically accurate, then I switched to Battleground for a little while but as you may have surmised from my battle reports in Warhammer I'm a very aggressive player and I feel Battleground penalizes the attacker too much which came to a head when I had a massive sweeping flank attack get cut to ribbons by a force that historically would have been easily crushed. Since then I've been off-and-on writing my own ruleset for 15mm WWII, and the rules are actually quite solid now and I'm pleased with them, just need to get army lists written up and find someone to play it with. I developed it with people back in the US with people I'd played with for ~10 years, so I think it could be a bit difficult to find new players here in the UK. I also just recently bought a 28mm Afrika Korps army for Bolt Action that I need to get assembled and painted at some point. Historicals are also the only system so far that I've ever bought models for just for the desire to paint them. I've got a 28mm King Tiger I'm going to make a Battle of the Bulge diorama out of as my first project post-Hockley and I doubt it will ever see a game as in Bolt Action tanks really suck and heavy tanks in particular are woefully overpriced. Beautiful model though.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:53 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
At that point it just seems a bit mean, though. Not that I wouldn't have a giant grin as my Swordmasters sent dozens of daemons back into the warp...

After several games of Beasts of Nurgle eating my Wood Elves alive it was nice to finally repay the compliment! Of course I also play Daemons. World Dragon is scary for them but it can’t be everywhere at once, which is also true vs WoC of course.

CaledorRises wrote:
That's a good point about the ranks, but I also feel that if my Archers are getting into combat then something has probably gone wrong.

Given Martial Prowess and the mediocrity of the 5+ save, Archers are almost as good as Spears in combat. Steadfast (and Ld eight) should mean that holding stuff up in combat is a viable plan for them, not to mention that three ranks of ASF attacks will actually beat a fair few units. Then there’s the combo-charge with a combat unit to break enemy Steadfast. This was put well near rhe foot of this page:

viewtopic.php?f=76&t=33584&start=1260

Seredain wrote:
although you can spend points on slowing enemy combat units down with your fast cavalry (ultimately by sacrificing them), if you want the points for that unit, eventually you’re going to need to kill it. What is your army's most effective method of doing this? For me, it's the helm bus and swordmasters. So, I need to hem enemy units in, so that the knights and swords can get into combat with as many of them as possible (with overruns and successive charges), before the end of my Turn 6. Conversely, if I allow the enemy to march right through my refused flank, they travel further and make it harder for my best units to catch them in the late game. Keep them bunched up with their fellows, however, and I have a much better chance of getting the elites into them by turn 6 and taking the points.

As previously discussed, of our core troops only the infantry can hold ground in enough strength to hem in enemy units in this way. And only a core infantry unit can apply enough ranks to break large units in conjunction with the fighting elites.


CaledorRises wrote:
My biggest collection is 15mm WWII

I played a lot of 15mm historicals in the 80’s, almost every period except WWII! There it was 1/300th, have the larger scales pretty much taken over that period now?

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:09 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Given Martial Prowess and the mediocrity of the 5+ save, Archers are almost as good as Spears in combat. Steadfast (and Ld eight) should mean that holding stuff up in combat is a viable plan for them, not to mention that three ranks of ASF attacks will actually beat a fair few units. Then there’s the combo-charge with a combat unit to break enemy Steadfast. This was put well near rhe foot of this page:


Yeah, that's a good point, the 5+ armor doesn't really do that much most of the time. I guess it's more of a mental thing where it just seems that Archers shouldn't be in CC rather than an actual game issue.

SpellArcher wrote:
I played a lot of 15mm historicals in the 80’s, almost every period except WWII! There it was 1/300th, have the larger scales pretty much taken over that period now?


Oh man, 1/300, is that Microarmor? I've not really seen anyone play games with that small of minis, though I've got a handful of vehicles. 15mm was the big one for a long time with Flames of War and Command Decision, I know that 28mm has rapidly grown in popularity since Warlord Games came out with Bolt Action, but 15mm still has a reasonably big following in Battlegroup and Flames of War.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:19 pm 
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Game 4: High Elves vs Orcs and Goblins

My game against Chaos today saw much blood spilt in the names of Khorne and Khaine, and then also saw a surprise game against a Dark Elf army! However, first, Eltharion would take his blade back to the Badlands to engage a WAAAAGGGHHHH of Night Goblins.

High Elves:
Eltharion the Grim, Warden of Tor Yvresse w/ Lore of Heavens
Archmage Level 4 w/ Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll, Khaine's Ring of Fury w/ Lore of Heavens
Noble BSB mounted on Barded Elven Steed w/ Dragon Armor, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, Shield
23x Archers w/ Standard
5x Ellyrian Reavers w/ Musician
30x Spearmen FC
9x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC w/ Banner of Eternal Flame
5x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC
19x Phoenix Guard FC w/ Razor Standard
Frostheart Phoenix

Greenskins:
Skarsnik, Warlord of the Eight Peaks
Night Goblin Warboss w/ Armor of Fortune, Shield, Spear, Dawnstone, mounted on Great Cave Squig
Night Goblin Big Boss BSB w/ Wailing Banner
Night Goblin Shaman Level 2 w/ Dispel Scroll
Night Goblin Shaman Level 2
Night Goblin Shaman Level 2
5x Spider Riders w/ Bows
20x Night Goblins w/ Bows and 1x Fanatic
50x Night Goblins FC w/ Netters, 2x Fanatic
68x Night Goblins FC w/ Netters, 3x Fanatic
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka
Doom Diver Catapult
Rock Lobba
9x Squig Hopper
11x Squigs, 8x Squig Herders
Snotling Pump Wagon w/ Spores, Outrigga, the other two upgrades
3x River Trolls
Giant

Magic:
Eltharion the Grim: Iceshard Blizzard, Harmonic Convergence
Archmage: Comet of Cassandora, Iceshard Blizzard, Curse of the Midnight Wind, Chain Lightning

Shaman 1: Vindictive Glare, Gift of the Spider God
Shaman 2: Sneaky Stabbin, Gork'll Fix It
Shaman 3: Sneaky Stabbin, Itchy Nuisance

Skarsnik forced the Archers into Reserve.

Deployment:
We were on a table slightly less wide than it was supposed to be, and unfortunately terrain was sparse in availability, but we carried on! The large Dragon Prince block went on the far High Elf left near the Phoenix Guard to hammer the flank and the Reavers next to them to play interference. The Frostheart ended up dead center and the Spearmen slightly off to the right. The small Dragon Princes went on the far Elven right and slightly back both to distract the Goblins and confuse them as to where my main push was going to be and also possibly to flank far around the Goblin left. The Giant took the far Goblin right next to the smaller Goblin block. The squigs were all in the center next to some Spider Riders and the archers behind and the warmachines behind that. The Pump Wagon and Skarsnik's horde were on the Goblin left with the Trolls just in front.

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Initial Thoughts:
I managed to get the big Goblin block to deploy on my right, meaning that my primary thrust shouldn't get bogged down. The Archers being in reserve is really annoying, but they should be able to get up in range and do some shooting quickly with the 30" range. The biggest fear with my main push is that the massive Goblin block will hold them up for too long and it will become a grind. I'm not sure about the Squig units, they've got potential. I'm also very concerned about Fanatics, I was expecting 3 per Goblin block, fortunately my opponent didn't buy that many but I was unaware of their numbers going in. I think I can sweep the Goblin right and hook into the center then, but I'm not sure what the small Dragon Princes will do. The Spiders and Reavers vanguarded forwards.

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High Elves Turn 1:
The Archers move on the board and the left flank advances. The Dragon Princes on the right also run far forwards to see if they can slip past Skarsnik's mob. The Reavers decide that their purpose in life is to draw out Fanatics and trigger the 2 out of the Goblin block. Fortunately neither Fanatic makes it into the Reavers and they then shift over and get in front of the Giant hoping to draw a charge forwards that will allow a counter-charge from the Princes and Guard.
Magic is a massive 12-5 phase after 2 channels. Unfortunately Heavens is a mid-range lore and with the Mage bunkered in the Archers that just came on from reserve most of the spells are out of range. Iceshard from Eltharion on the Goblin horde is dispelled, the Archmage tosses Iceshard onto the Spider Riders just for laughs, and then Eltharion casts a boosted Convergence to hit the Princes, Phoenix, and Guard. A Comet is then called in next to the Goblin artillery.
The Archers decide 2 Fanatics in front of my main effort is too many and kill one of them.

Greenskins Turn 1:
The Giant takes the bait and charges the Reavers while the Hoppers shoot forwards into the path of my left flank. The other units generally move around.
Magic is another big phase with 11-6. One Shaman eats a bad mushroom though and takes a wound, and then the second Shaman miscasts Gork'll Fix It onto the Reavers and the miscast kills the Shaman that took the bad shroom, who also happened to be the Scroll Caddy, and wounded the other two Shamans. All remaining dice are lost.
The Doom Diver then misfires and cannot shoot this turn or the next. The Rock Lobba misses it's target while one Spear Chukka blows itself up and the other misses his target.
Despite Gork'll Fix It a brave horse from the Reavers bites the Giant's knee and wounds it. The Giant then swings his club and kills 4 Reavers, but the last one passes his break test.

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High Elves Turn 2:
The Dragon Princes charge the Giant, the Phoenix Guard charge the Squig Hoppers, and the Phoenix charges the Squig Herd. I was hoping the Phoenix Guard would line up so that in an overrun they could join the Phoenix, but it was not to be. The other units shuffle around.
Magic is a small 5-3 phase, and the Comet comes in, killing the Doom Diver and wounding the Rock Lobba once. Iceshard Blizzard was dispelled but a boosted Covergence went off on the Frostheart, Dragon Princes, and Phoenix Guard.
The Archers shoot 2 wounds off the Pump Wagon.
The Dragon Princes wound the Giant 4 times, and then he reaches down to pick up one Dragon Prince, but in a stunning display that Prince killed the Giant fighting him off, and the Dragon Princes overrun off the board. Eltharion then cut down the Goblin Warboss on the Squig and the Guard wiped out the rest of the Hoppers and reformed to face the Night Goblin mob. The Frostheart then killed 8 Squigs at no injury and the Squigs then exploded killing 4 Goblin Archers, the nearby Fanatic, 2 Goblins from the mob, 2 Phoenix Guard, and wounding the Frostheart once. The Frostheart then overran into the Goblin Archers who shot a fanatic towards him but this one also failed to reach the Phoenix, and he then flew over the Fanatic to hit the Night Goblins.

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Greenskins Turn 2:
Most units continue moving forwards. The Fanatics from Skarsnik's unit head towards the Frostheart and towards the small Dragon Princes but all fail to reach their targets. The Pump Wagon continues heading towards the Archers.
Magic is an 8-4 phase that puts Gork'll Fix It on the Frostheart. Itchy Nuisance on the Phoenix Guard is scrolled and Skarsnik's Prodda is dispelled. Sneaky Stabbin goes onto the smaller Goblin block.
The Rock Lobba hits the Phoenix Guard directly, but absurd dice rolls see 7/8 passed armor saves and 2 ward saves to have no casualties.
The Frostheart then kills 7 Night Goblins without taking damage but they hold.

High Elves Turn 3:
The Phoenix Guard charge the Night Goblins to their front and the small Dragon Prince unit charges the Spider Riders to their front.
Magic is a paltry 6-5 phase that has Soul Quench dispelled, Iceshard Blizzard cast on the small Goblin block and Harmonic Convergence go on the Phoenix Guard.
The Archers finish off the Pump Wagon.
The small Dragon Prince unit kills the Spiders and overruns past Skarsnik, the Phoenix Guard kill 11 Goblins at no loss after they fail their fear test and the Goblins, out of BSB and Skarsnik range, break. The Phoenix Guard then run them down. The Frostheart repeats his performance killing 7 more Goblins and then running them down as they flee and hitting the Rock Lobba.

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Greenskins Turn 3:
The Trolls unfortunately fail their re-rollable Stupidity test on the turn they are finally in charge range. The Fanatics whirl around but don't hit anyone.
Magic is a bad 7-7 phase after some channels and Skarsnik's Prodda miscasts, destroying it and killing 4 Archers.
The last Spear Chukka misfires.
The Frostheart kills the Rock Lobba and turns to face the Chukka.

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High Elves Turn 4:
The Phoenix charges the Spear Chukka and the rest of the army begins to encircle Skarsnik while the Spearmen slowly back away.
Magic is only 4-3, but Soul Quench hits Skarsnik and kills 7 Goblins. Curse then fails to cast.
The Archers shoot 4 more Goblins to death.
The Phoenix kills the Chukka and turns to face the Goblins.

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Greenskins Turn 4:
The Trolls, no longer in BSB and General range, fail Stupidity and stumble towards the retreating Spearmen. The Goblins reform to face the majority of the incoming Elves.

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High Elves Turn 5:
The army positions itself for the Turn 6 charge. The Spearmen move a bit backwards again sensing the Trolls don't really realize they are right in front of them.
Magic is a massive 12-6 phase that puts Blizzard on the Trolls to ensure they fail Stupidity, but this miscasts and the Archmage loses a wizard level. Eltharion then casts the bubble Convergence and then Iceshard Blizzard fails on a 3 dice cast after a terrible roll.
The Archers kill 7 more Goblins.

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Greenskins Turn 5:
The Trolls stumble forwards again and the Goblins slightly reform to get the small Princes out of their flank.

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High Elves Turn 6:
The Caledorians tell Eltharion to stand aside and watch real Elves work and both Prince units hit the Goblins head on while the Phoenix joins them. The Archers wheel to face the Trolls.
Magic is only a 3-2 phase that puts Curse of the Midnight Wind on the Goblins.
The Archers wound the Trolls once.
The Caledorians then see red and make the tactical error of just inflicting mass slaughter as opposed to killing the BSB and Skarsnik as would have been much smarter. As a result 28 Goblins are impaled, but in payment for their arrogance Skarsnik kills 4 of the Dragon Princes from the large block, though we did forget about the Frostheart aura here, and another Dragon Prince falls to the Goblins (he probably tripped on a corpse).

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Greenskinks Turn 6:
The Trolls complete the 3-turn Stupidity failure and stumble towards the Spearmen again.
The blue Dragon Prince unit is netted and they kill 11 more Goblins but the Goblins pass their break test.

High Elf Victory!

Thoughts:
This game went very well for me and quite poorly for my opponent. The Goblins had no luck at all with the Fanatics, they all missed their targets in the launch and then never scattered properly so that none of the 6 inflicted any casualties. His warmachines were also more dangerous to themselves than to me which was very unlucky. We also discussed the lists and agreed that the Squig units needed to be bigger to survive the initial Elven attacks and also that the Goblin units needed a character in them to boost the leadership of the unit. The Trolls continually failing Stupidity was inevitable when they left Skarsnik's range, but was just bad luck their first turn failing.
I did win deployment, getting a lot of Goblin units out of position, particularly Skarsnik's Horde. I'm not sure about the small Dragon Prince unit, this game I didn't really know what to do with them. Where they were they couldn't impact the game much as the Trolls and Skarsnik's Horde would overwhelm them, but they could possibly do better in a different game in a different position, their biggest impact on the game was in deployment. My sweeping left flank maneuver worked very well, and I think my opponent inadvertently helped me in this by throwing several units into the meatgrinder in a way that gave me the charge on all of them and allowed me to jump from unit to unit, but that's also partially because the Squig units were too small to survive the impact of Elven elites. The Giant taking the Reaver bait was a mistake as it put the Giant in very easy charge range of the Princes, though the full impact of the Princes was actually lessened by one Reaver surviving and blocking other Princes from attacking. A near complete victory was lost by my mistake in target priority in the final combat, had I killed Skarsnik and the BSB, very possible with the S5 Princes on the charge, the Goblins would almost certainly have fled, but I got distracted by a morbid desire to kill an obscene number of Goblins. I accomplished my goal (39 Goblins in 2 rounds of CC), but it cost me VPs, a mistake that I cannot make in a tournament game.

Next up: Crown Prince Imrik, Lord of Caledor and Consummate Hero engages the armies of Chaos!


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:03 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
Oh man, 1/300, is that Microarmor? I've not really seen anyone play games with that small of minis, though I've got a handful of vehicles. 15mm was the big one for a long time with Flames of War and Command Decision, I know that 28mm has rapidly grown in popularity since Warlord Games came out with Bolt Action, but 15mm still has a reasonably big following in Battlegroup and Flames of War.

1/300th was pretty standard at the time, though 1/200th was making progress. The Infantry were pretty small!

Interesting choice of Heavens, seemed to work OK. You do lose Shield of Saphery of course. I kind of get the mid-range angle, though those 48”+ spells are good to have. Comet in particular you put to good use here CR.

I have to say my heart sinks every time I face a Goblin list. It’s just so unpredictable and hard to get a grip on. You did a great job here though. Aided of course by all of your opponent’s stuff going wrong from T1 onwards! Good point about the importance of reliable Leadership.

Small units of Dragon Princes are tricky to use effectively in my experience. They’re more fragile than they seem and delivering a knockout punch with those S5 attacks can be hard to organise. Maybe it’ll be easier with your big flyers around.

CaledorRises wrote:
Next up: Crown Prince Imrik, Lord of Caledor and Consummate Hero engages the armies of Chaos!

Looking forward to it!

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:44 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Interesting choice of Heavens, seemed to work OK. You do lose Shield of Saphery of course. I kind of get the mid-range angle, though those 48”+ spells are good to have. Comet in particular you put to good use here CR.

I have to say my heart sinks every time I face a Goblin list. It’s just so unpredictable and hard to get a grip on. You did a great job here though. Aided of course by all of your opponent’s stuff going wrong from T1 onwards! Good point about the importance of reliable Leadership.

Small units of Dragon Princes are tricky to use effectively in my experience. They’re more fragile than they seem and delivering a knockout punch with those S5 attacks can be hard to organise. Maybe it’ll be easier with your big flyers around.


I wasn't too concerned about losing Shield of Saphery since the Mage being in the Archers wasn't supposed to be providing much of a ward save buff. I didn't like that Heavens doesn't have that many 48" spells, Convergence, Curse, Blizzard, and Chain Lightning are all 24" which meant I wasn't always able to cast them. I like Heavens with my Lizardmen so I thought I'd try it with High Elves. It was okay and Comet definitely helped, but I'm not sure it was the best fit.

The Goblins were extremely unpredictable. This game that worked in my favor, though, with so many low random movement rolls and a large number of misfires.

Yeah, the small number was an issue that game. Against Chaos it was slightly different.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:55 am 
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Game 5: High Elves vs Legions of Chaos

That's right! Not Warriors of Chaos as I was expecting, but Legions from the Glottkin book. I wasn't running my full Hockley list because the Silver Helms aren't ready yet, so my list was comping at -3. Apparently this Chaos army was comping at around -20.

High Elves:
Prince mounted on Star Dragon w/ Enchanted Shield, Star Lance, The Other Trickster's Shard, Talisman of Preservation
Mage Level 1 w/ Dispel Scroll, Lore of Shadow
Noble BSB mounted on Barded Elven Steed w/ Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, Dragon Armor, Shield
23x Archers w/ Standard
5x Ellyrian Reavers w/ Musician
30x Spearmen FC
9x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC w/ Banner of Eternal Flame
5x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC
Frostheart Phoenix
Frostheart Phoenix

Legions of Chaos:
Daemon Prince of Nurgle w/ Chaos Familiar, Charmed Shield, Scaly Skin, Dragonbane Gem, Flight, possibly other stuff, Lore of Death
Exalted Hero mounted on Disk of Tzeentch BSB w/ MoT, 3+ ward rerolling 1s, possibly other stuff
Exalted Hero mounted on Juggernaut w/ MoK, other stuff
5x Chaos Warhounds
5x Chaos Warhounds
Chaos Chariot w/ MoK
Chaos Chariot w/ MoK
Chaos Chariot w/ MoK
Chaos Chariot w/ MoK
Chaos Chariot w/ MoK
5x Chaos Knights w/ MoK, Ensorcelled Weapons, FC, Banner of Eternal Flame
3x Skullcrushers FC w/ Ensorcelled Weapons
Skull Cannon
Skull Cannon

Magic:
Mage: Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma

Daemon Prince:Soulblight, Doom and Darkness, Purple Sun, Fate of Bjuna, Caress of Laniph

Deployment:
I knew deployment was going to be crucial for this game, particularly if Chaos got the first turn I needed to make sure that my monsters weren't shot off the table immediately. There was a forest just to the left of the center of the board and I decided that would be my anchor for a heavy right flank, the monsters would go behind some walls on my right. I didn't want to give that game away immediately, though, so my first drops were Reavers and Spearmen dead center. The Archers then went to the right of the Reavers with their right flank on the walls, this still didn't give much of my deployment away because they could be an anchor for my right. I then put the small Princes on the left of the forest, this was to confuse my enemy and also to try and outflank my enemy to get them into the Cannons. I then had to drop the monsters and Prince bus, so the Prince bus went on the far right behind the obstacles and all three monsters dropped behind the walls. Chaos opted for a center rush with right flank support. This meant that 4 Chariots were opposite my infantry with the Knights behind them and one cannon. The far Chaos left was covered by a unit of dogs. Dead center of the Chaos line was the Daemon Prince with the last Chariot just to his right on the other side of some walls. The Skullcrushers and the other dogs were to their right with the second cannon on the far right, and then the disk hero on the far far right. In the picture the Skullcrusher unit is missing the Khorne hero because he broke at deployment with an accidental drop so he's being reglued while I was taking the picture, but he was in the unit. The disk hero also cannot be seen but he's even farther on the Chaos right. I vanguarded my Reavers into midfield.

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Initial Thoughts:
Cannons. Two of them. This game will be difficult. I think my deployment is fairly good, my monsters are covered from Turn 1 cannon shots, as is my bus, but they'll rapidly have to leave cover. The strong Chaos right means that the planned flank from the small Princes won't work. Instead, they will try to occupy the Skullcrushers and the Disk Hero as long as possible. With my right flank being so strong and also much faster than the Chaos right I think I can crush the Chaos left before the Skullcrushers and Disk Hero arrive at the center giving me a chance to adjust my lines and defeat the Chaos army in two halves. The Daemon Prince is a bit farther away from my Star Dragon than I'd like, but with cannons out there I can't just charge forward and give battle, so I'm not sure how I'll deal with him.

High Elves Turn 1:
I got turn 1! That's good.
My army generally moved forwards, the Reavers trying to bait the Chariots forwards. My monsters and Bus advanced aggressively up the right flank and angled inwards. A charge would be very difficult for the Chariots and if they advance now it should be very possible for me to cascade through them all and wipe out most of them. My small Prince unit pushed farther left to try and distract the Skullcrushers and the other Chariot.
I rolled +1 strength in magic for my Phoenixes and then skipped the phase as to throw enough dice to get through the dispel I would probably miscast and I didn't want to do that.
The Archers knocked one wound off a Chariot in the middle.

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Chaos Turn 1:
All Frenzy tests were passed. The dogs on the Chaos left charged the nearest Frostheart in the flank, something I knew could happen but wasn't worried about. The Chariot on the Chaos right fails a charge on the small Dragon Princes as does the Disk Hero. The Daemon Prince, fearing no cannons, charged into the center of the field. The Chariots on the Chaos left advanced a bit, concerned about the incoming wall of monsters.
Magic was a massive 10-6. A boosted Purple Sun was immediately miscast through the Spearmen killing 4 of them and stripping Charmed Shield off the Daemon Prince. Fate of Bjuna on the Mage was dispelled.
One Skullcannon tries to shoot the Star Dragon but misfires and cannot shoot this turn or the next. The second cannon targets the Reavers but a long over-shoot sees only one Reaver killed.
In combat the Frostheart kills 2 dogs and then they miraculously wound the Frostheart. We then promptly forgot that you can Thunderstomp War Beasts and so the dogs won combat. The Frostheart stuck around, but was now tied down.

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High Elves Turn 2:
The other Frostheart charges the flank of the closest Chariot but fails the Dangerous Terrain test for the woods taking a wound. The Dragon Princes and the Star Dragon then fail their 8" and 9" charges respectively, meaning most of the Chariot group will be unengaged with the bus and Dragon in very poor positions. The Reavers move up to cover the bus and redirect any Chariots away. The Princes on the flank shifted backwards.
Magic is then a bad 3-2 phase that sees the Frosthearts lose a strength right when they needed it most.
The Archers show the monsters and cavalry how it's done by wounding the same Chariot two more times.
In combat we remembered that you can thunderstomp War Beasts so that Phoenix quickly killed the remaining dogs. The other Phoenix, only S5 now, wounded the Chariot once, but still managed to win combat and the Chariot broke. It was run down and the Frostheart hit the flank of the next Chariot.

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Chaos Turn 2:
One Chariot is forced to charge the Reavers while the Chaos Knights charge the Frostheart in the flank. The Daemon Prince flies behind the Archers and the Disk Hero flies up to flank the small Princes.
Magic is another giant 11-6 phase. This time Doom and Darkness and Soulblight both go on the Archers. Caress of Laniph on the Mage is dispelled and then the Daemon Prince miscasts the big Purple Sun again. This kills 3 Archers and also the luckless Mage slips into the ball dragging his all important scroll with him. The Prince takes one wound from this.
The remaining Skull Cannon cannot draw LOS into the mess of Chariots and bodies around the Star Dragon so instead kills 3 more Archers.
The Frostheart then gets angry and wounds the Chariot 3 times taking 1 in return and holding in combat. The other Chariot destroys the Reavers and overruns out of the Dragon Prince charge arc.

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High Elves Turn 3:
Crown Prince Impotent fails his next charge of 6" into a nearby Chariot. Fortunately the Dragon Princes don't and hit the Chariot near the Frostheart. The other Frostheart and the Spearmen then hit the Skull Cannon that had advanced to midfield. The small Dragon Princes on the flank do some fancy maneuvering and manage to get out of the charge arc of the Disk Hero.
Magic dispels Doom and Darkness and grants the Phoenixes +1 Attack.
Despite this the Frostheart and Spearmen fail to wound the Skull Cannon and it kills 3 Spears, but Daemonic Instability strips 3 wounds off of it. The Dragon Princes then kill their Chariot, the one the Archers had been hitting, and overrun into the flank of the Chariot with the other Frostheart, killing it. No Knights are killed by the Frostheart but the combat resolution from the Dragon Princes force the Knights to break and the Phoenix runs them down. The Dragon Princes reform to face the Chaos right.

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Chaos Turn 3:
The Chariot on the Chaos right charges the small Princes after a failed Frenzy test and the Khorne Hero does as well. The Skullcrushers fail towards the Spearmen. The dogs also charge the small Princes in the flank. The Chariot that killed the Reavers hits the Archer flank.
Magic is 9-5 as the Daemon Prince moved behind the Spearmen and aims a large Purple Sun to hit the Frostheart, but this fails to cast and ends the magic phase.
The Skull Cannon misses the Frostheart Phoenix.
The Chariot kills 4 Archers but they hold and turn to face. The small Princes kill one dog but are beaten and run with one survivor. The Skull Cannon is killed in combat and the Spearmen reform to face the Daemon Prince.

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High Elves Turn 4:
The Dragon Princes and the Frostheart charge the Skullcrushers and the Spearmen charge the Daemon Prince to lock him down. The Star Dragon moves to be right next to the Daemon Prince to ensure a charge next turn. The other Frostheart moves behind some walls to cover from a cannon ball and looks to charge the remaining Skull Cannon next turn.
The Dragon Princes manage to put 5 wounds into the Skullcrushers and the unit champ put a 6th into the Skullcrusher champ. The Dragon Prince unit champion dies but no other casualties are suffered. The Skullcrushers break and are run down with the Frostheart and Princes both hitting the Skullcannon behind them. The unit champion from the Spearmen challenges the Daemon Prince and is of course killed but he managed to allow the Spearmen to win the first of 2 combats they would need to last through before the Star Dragon arrived.

At this point we called the game. It seemed like the High Elves were likely to win with only 2 Chaos Chariots left, an engaged Skull Cannon, the BSB, the Khorne Hero, and the Daemon Prince, but the Daemon Prince was in serious trouble from the Star Dragon and the Cannon would certainly be killed in the next round of CC. The High Elf army was also still mostly intact at this point, having only lost the small Prince and Mage and light damage to the Bus, the Phoenixes, the Spears and the Archers. The game was called to allow for a second game against an army of Dark Elves that had shown up!

High Elf Victory!

Thoughts:
This game was a tough fight. Every move had to be carefully considered, and I think that slowed down play a lot so I need to get more practice to play faster. When my Star Dragon and Bus failed their Turn 2 charges and the Frostheart was mistakenly still engaged with the Warhounds I thought I was finished. Fortunately I had Reavers close enough to protect the Dragon Princes and the Chaos Chariots weren't in an excellent position to exploit the failed charges. I liked my Archers in this game as they were in a big enough unit to keep Steadfast against a Chariot and would likely hold him up for a while. They also stripped 3 wounds off of another Chariot which was surprising considering T5 and a 3+ save. The small Dragon Princes again accomplished virtually nothing by way of scoring points, but they managed to keep a unit of Warhounds, a Chariot, the BSB, and the Skullcrushers occupied for 2 turns meaning that it wasn't until Turn 3 that the Crushers and BSB moved into the center by which point I had defeated the Chaos left and was ready to engage them, so I'm pleased with their performance this game. I didn't get to see the Star Dragon in action this game due to some really sad charge rolls, and I do really wonder how the fight against the Daemon Prince would have gone had we continued.
I must say I really like this list. It fits my play style very comfortably. It is fast and extremely aggressive, which is just how I like to play. In other games my aggressiveness has caused problems but I think this list favors a bold game plan. I really want to see how it would do with the Silver Helms instead of Spearmen to make the entire list extremely fast.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:41 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
Convergence, Curse, Blizzard, and Chain Lightning are all 24" which meant I wasn't always able to cast them.

Blizzard can be boosted to 48” but I take your point CR.

Your big Flyers are obviously the main concern for your opponent. His was reading like a typical WoC rush list (no Scroll though) until:

CaledorRises wrote:
Skull Cannon
Skull Cannon

One reason I don’t love Storm of Chaos lists! I’m assuming Lords and Heroes were limited to 25%, else we’d be seeing more characters. I think the match-up favours your opponent somewhat.

Again, I like your deployment. I feel the Skillcannon on the Chaos right should have been in their left corner. Even if it does no damage it’ll draw one of your Phoenixes away for some time. He seemed to be a bit unlucky with his shooting overall.

CaledorRises wrote:
I rolled +1 strength in magic for my Phoenixes and then skipped the phase as to throw enough dice to get through the dispel I would probably miscast and I didn't want to do that.

Good call. Miscast chance on 6 dice is only around 25% but it’s still not worth the risk.

Could the Chariots have usefully backed off 7” before they were first charged by the Phoenix? Purple Sun seems an odd spell to be shooting at Initiative 5 elves and the DP was lucky not to blow his own head off. The Hounds charge seemed strange, I guess enough might have survived to break and possibly draw the Frostheart in Pursuit, Ld 10 though, a long shot. I really liked your redirect with the Reavers, excellent move. The strong Chaos flank seemed much too slow to get going, he should push the Skullcrushers straight forward, the Dragon Prince charge isn’t a big issue. Again, I would have put the DP into your Spears immediately, you would have several Ld tests to pass there. Sure, it’s only Spears but it’s all VP’s and you charging him later was then a problem.

CaledorRises wrote:
No Knights are killed by the Frostheart but the combat resolution from the Dragon Princes force the Knights to break and the Phoenix runs them down.

Losing combats is a big issue for WoC. Overall you just played better, bravo!

=D>

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:33 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Your big Flyers are obviously the main concern for your opponent. His was reading like a typical WoC rush list (no Scroll though) until:

CaledorRises wrote:
Skull Cannon
Skull Cannon

One reason I don’t love Storm of Chaos lists! I’m assuming Lords and Heroes were limited to 25%, else we’d be seeing more characters. I think the match-up favours your opponent somewhat.


This is the second Daemon Prince list I've seen and it's the second to not feature a scroll. It just seems that a scroll might not fit that well in since you'd need to buy a new hero and then a unit to bunker that hero in, at least in this list the only unit that could be used as a bunker would be the Chaos Knights and that prevents them from performing their intended roll to some extent.

The Heroes and Lords are limited to 25% for Hockley, but my opponent didn't max out either I don't think, though I'm not sure of the cost of the heroes in his list. That's also why my Prince is stuck with only a 3+ armor save since I hit 25% exactly.

I was also surprised by the cannons! Everything my opponent was pulling out of the case was pretty much what I had expected and what you and I had discussed, until two Skull Cannons came out. That had me very concerned.

SpellArcher wrote:
Again, I like your deployment. I feel the Skillcannon on the Chaos right should have been in their left corner. Even if it does no damage it’ll draw one of your Phoenixes away for some time. He seemed to be a bit unlucky with his shooting overall.


I agree, I thought the cannon was going to go right behind his Warhounds on the left. When it didn't it made my flanking advance much easier. His shooting was also a little bit unlucky, particularly the turn 1 misfire.

SpellArcher wrote:
Could the Chariots have usefully backed off 7” before they were first charged by the Phoenix? Purple Sun seems an odd spell to be shooting at Initiative 5 elves and the DP was lucky not to blow his own head off. The Hounds charge seemed strange, I guess enough might have survived to break and possibly draw the Frostheart in Pursuit, Ld 10 though, a long shot. I really liked your redirect with the Reavers, excellent move. The strong Chaos flank seemed much too slow to get going, he should push the Skullcrushers straight forward, the Dragon Prince charge isn’t a big issue. Again, I would have put the DP into your Spears immediately, you would have several Ld tests to pass there. Sure, it’s only Spears but it’s all VP’s and you charging him later was then a problem.


They could have backed off some, I'm not sure how much though as it would have gotten very crowded. I think that keeping them forwards and actually advancing them a bit was more down to inexperience in fighting lists that attack as aggressively, if not more so, than his does. My opponent also said after the battle that he had underestimated the Frosthearts, and I don't think he knew how mean the Star Dragon could be in close combat either. Purple Sun confused me too, I think it was more done simply because it should kill some Elves and it was the only spell the DP had that could kill more than one model. The risk to the DP was actually more than I mentioned in the report, one of the miscasts was indeed a Dimensional Cascade, but he rolled a 4 so the DP survived. The Warhound charge I wasn't expecting either, and it probably shouldn't have been done if we had actually remembered the Thunderstomps against War Beasts. The Skullcrushers did move very slowly and took too long to get into the fight, they were trying to go after the small Prince unit but actually the Warhounds there prevented them from getting in on Turn 2. I don't think my opponent expected how quickly the Chaos left would collapse which is why the Skullcrushers didn't move with perfect urgency. Again on the Daemon Prince I'm not sure my opponent thought the Spearmen were worth the effort of the 525 point Daemon. On Chaos Turn 3 he measured a charge against the Star Dragon but since it was 23" he couldn't make it in, so I think the Daemon Prince was searching for bigger fish than the Spearmen without realizing that it wasn't the biggest fish on the table.

SpellArcher wrote:
Overall you just played better, bravo!

=D>


Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:41 am 
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Game 6: High Elves vs Dark Elves

This game was a surprise to me! I didn't know I'd be playing another game on Sunday, but was very happy to do so! This would also be my first game against the hated Dark Elves, so I wasn't entirely sure what to expect from them. I knew casualties would be heavy on both sides as fights between elves always are. The army was also very nicely painted in an unconventional golden scheme which I liked a lot. My picture taking this game was very lacklustre, so apologies for that.

High Elves:
Prince mounted on Star Dragon w/ Enchanted Shield, Star Lance, The Other Trickster's Shard, Talisman of Preservation
Mage Level 1 w/ Dispel Scroll, Lore of Shadow
Noble BSB mounted on Barded Elven Steed w/ Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, Dragon Armor, Shield
23x Archers w/ Standard
5x Ellyrian Reavers w/ Musician
30x Spearmen FC
9x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC w/ Banner of Eternal Flame
5x Dragon Princes of Caledor FC
Frostheart Phoenix
Frostheart Phoenix

Dark Elves:
Supreme Sorceress Level 4 w/ Lore of Life, Talisman of Preservation, maybe other stuff
Sorceress Level 2 w/ Lore of Dark Magic, Channelling Staff, maybe something else
Master BSB w/ stuff
Assassin w/ Potion of Strength, OTS
5x Dark Riders w/ Crossbows, Shields, Spears
5x Dark Riders w/ Crossbows, Shields, Spears
~40 Dreadspears FC
~30 Executioners FC
12x Cold One Knights FC w/ Banner of Swiftness
Reaper Bolt Thrower
Reaper Bolt Thrower
Reaper Bolt Thrower
8x Shades w/ Great Weapons

Magic:
Mage: Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma

Supreme Sorceress: Dwellers Below, Shield of Thorns, Earthblood, Throne of Vines
Sorceress: Doombolt, The other signature

Deployment:
We kept the same terrain and table edges to make sure that the game would go as quickly as possible. I didn't want to play the game identically to the previous one so this time I planned on going for a left hook using the large ruins on the left side of the board to control my enemy's movement without constricting mine as I had fliers. However, the drop of the Cold One Knights on the Dark Elf right forced me to change that plan as in a battle between Cold One Knights and Dragon Princes the victor would be the side that charged and I didn't want to stake the game on my ability to get the charge on an enemy heavy cavalry unit. Therefore my deployment ended up with the Reavers out of position on my left flank screening an advance that no longer existed, the Spearmen and Archers in essentially the same position as last game, the small Dragon Princes in the center of my line, and the bus once again on my far right. One Phoenix and the Star Dragon were again behind the ruins on my right, with the other Phoenix in the center following the original plan of advancing to the left, but fortunately not too far out of position for a right flank push. The Shades would arrive on my far left. Opposite me the Cold Ones were on the far Dark Elf right with the Executioners in the center of the board with the Supreme Sorceress and the BSB. One unit of Dark Riders were in front of the Cold Ones and one Bolt Thrower between the Executioners and the Cold Ones. The Dreadspears were on the Dark Elf left with the Sorceress, and both remaining Bolt Throwers in the trees and the other Dark Riders to the right of the trees. Vanguarding saw the Dark Riders on the Dark Elf right advance straight forwards and the other Riders skirt the trees to end up far on the Dark Elf left and the Reavers shifted towards the center to get into a better position and ward off the Cold Ones.

Image
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Initial Thoughts:
More artillery. That's going to be my biggest threat to the monsters and possibly the Executioners. I need to shoot the Executioners down as quickly as possible, but this should be relatively easy with Archers and in CC my Elves will hit first with rerolls, so they should be possible to defeat. The hordes could present issues for me as my monsters and cavalry will get bogged down by them, but fortunately the Dark Elves don't seem to have many hammers that can capitalise on that. Since my opponent had watched the battle against Chaos he knew most of my list already so in the spirit of fairness he did warn me an Assassin was present. I expected this to be in the deceptively weak Dreadspear unit as the Dreadspears would be a seemingly enticing charge for Dragon Princes or the like and that would be a nasty surprise for them, running into an Assassin that just carves through cavalry. Multi-charges will be my friend here, isolated units are in danger.

Dark Elves Turn 1:
The line primarily shuffles forwards, pivoting on the bolt throwers to wheel towards my main effort. The Cold Ones aggressively advance to make sure they aren't out of the game for long.
Magic is 8-6 that first sees Throne miscast on 2 dice, but the miscast is of course absorbed. Shield of Thorns goes up on the Executioners and Earthblood is dispelled.
The Dark Riders and one Reaper combine to kill 2 Reavers and the Shades attempt to wound the Frostheart, but fail. On the other flank the Riders and Reapers combine to kill 2 Dragon Princes from the bus.

High Elves Turn 1:
The Reavers see a small gap in the Dark Elf line and charge the Bolt Thrower on the Dark Elf right. Elsewhere the High Elf right flank advances quickly to get into charge range of something. On the other flank the Frostheart flies up far to the left to help deal with the Cold Ones.
Magic dispels Throne of Vines and tries to cast Melkoth's on a Bolt Thrower but this is stopped.
The Archers manage to kill 4 Executioners.
The Reavers then only manage to wound the Bolt Thrower once and it stays in combat. Fortunately it won't be shooting, though.

Image
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Dark Elves Turn 2:
The Cold Ones try to charge the Spearmen but fail forwards a bit. The Executioners aggressively move forwards not expecting the Frostheart to charge them. The Dreadspears wheel to face the other Frostheart and the Star Dragon. The Shades and Dark Riders on the Dark Elf right begin to push behind the High Elf line and the other Dark Riders line up shots out of charge arc of the High Elf right.
Magic is 6-4 and Throne of Vines is dispelled, but Earthblood goes up on the Executioners to cover them from the Archer fire.
The Shades again try to hurt the Frostheart but fail to hurt him, as do some Dark Rider shots. Both Bolt Throwers then shoot the Frostheart on the Elven right with single bolts and both hit it, but neither one manages to wound the tough old bird.
In combat the Reavers and Bolt Thrower crewman stare angrily at each other but not much else.

High Elves Turn 2:
With the Cold One Knights' flank exposed, the Frostheart charges into them. The Dreadspears are also too ambitious of a charge for the Dragon Princes and the Frostheart, so instead they both go into the forest to kill some Bolt Throwers. Unfortunately two Dragon Princes run into trees and die on their way. The Star Dragon then flies far to line up a Breath Weapon shot on the Executioners and also gets out of the Dreadspear charge arc.
Magic sees Miasma miscast onto the Executioners dropping their WS by 2 and killing 3 Archers.
The Dragon then immolates a disappointing 9 Executioners with his breath weapon, and with Earthblood thus removed the Archers kill another 5.
The Frostheart kills 1 Cold One Knight but takes a wound in return. The Knights reform to face. The other Frostheart kills his bolt thrower and turns to face the Dreadspears while the Dragon Princes kill their Bolt Thrower and run out of the forest. The Reavers also finally kill their Bolt Thrower.

Image

Dark Elves Turn 3:
The Shades and Dark Riders and Executioners all try to charge the Spearmen. The Shades don't make it in, but the others all do. The Dreadspears then charge the Frostheart to their front.
Magic is a dramatic 6-2 after two channels that puts Throne onto the Executioners before Earthblood is scrolled. Shield of Thorns kills 4 Spearmen, though.
The Frostheart kills one Cold One Knight without taking a wound, crucially shifting combat resolution by 2 by removing a rank, and he stays in combat. On the other flank the Frostheart kills 4 Dreadspears at no injury. The Spearmen then kill 1 Dark Rider and then I promptly forgot the one spell I managed to cast in either game and also forgot that I should be rerolling misses against the Executioners so only 3 of them die. In return 13 Spearmen are cut down. Not to worry, I'm still steadfast Ld 10. They failed. The Dark Riders ran them down and the Executioners overran into the Archers.

High Elves Turn 3:
The small Dragon Princes charge the Dreadspears in the flank and the Star Dragon hits the Cold Ones in the rear. The bus reforms to prepare to charge the Dreadspears in their other flank.
Shield of Thorns is dispelled and Melkoths is stopped.
The Archers only kill 3 Executioners and lose 10, breaking their steadfast by 1, forcing them to run, but they aren't caught yet. Elsewhere the Dreadspears lose 15 Elves without the High Elves taking any injury. The Star Dragon and Frostheart then wipe out the Cold One Knights and reform to face the collapsed High Elf center.

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Dark Elves Turn 4:
The Exeuctioners force the Archers off the board. The Dark Riders then charge the rear of the bus.
Earthblood goes off on the Executioners and Shield of Thorns is dispelled.
The Dark Riders arriving back on the board kill one Reaver and the Shades finally wound the Phoenix once.
The cowardly Dark Riders then stab one noble Dragon Prince in the back, but 4 of them die in return. Nevertheless he doesn't run and the bus is locked down for one more turn. The Frostheart and small Princes then kill another 9 Dreadspears at no injury.

Image

At this point we were told the store would be closing in 15 minutes and we needed to start packing up. Unfortunately as the game ended here it was approximately a draw because while the Executioners and Dreadspears were undoubtedly in trouble and much depleted their points were still on the board.

Draw!

Thoughts:
Another difficult battle! My center collapsed faster than I thought it would under the Executioner assault because of the Spearmen failing their Ld 10 check and then the Archers losing Steadfast by 1. I think had the game continued I could have won a significant victory as the bus would kill the Dark Rider in my turn 4 and then have a turn 5 charge on the Dreadspears flank and with 5 more rounds of combat I think the Dreadspears would have broken. The Star Dragon and Frostheart would also launch a turn 5 attack on the Executioners that I think would have wiped that unit out. My opponent told me afterwards he was hoping the Assassin would kill the Prince even if the rest of the Executioners died, but if the Frostheart had gotten into the Executioners as I planned I think the Prince could have killed the Assassin before he managed to attack. Once again I think my play speed needs to increase, but it was also partially slowed down by having to take all these notes, so in a tournament I think I could have gotten farther in the game. The attack by the Frostheart on the Cold Ones was risky as was having a Frostheart isolated against the Dreadspears. Neither was likely to take damage from attacks, but static CR certainly had potential to cause me issues. I also noticed my list had trouble dealing with both units of Dark Riders and the Shades as they were very well maneuvered by my opponent and I didn't really have an answer to them. They didn't cause serious problems in this game, but against a more avoidance based list in the future I'll have to figure out a counter. I was also again fortunate against my opponent's artillery, both bolt throwers failing to wound the Frostheart was not likely, and the oversight of leaving the small gap for my Reavers to hit the third cannot be relied on. My archers were hard pressed to decide on a target as the Executioners desperately needed to be shot down before they reached combat, but the bolt throwers were also a tempting target. I've not got the models or time to make the change before Hockley, but it would be interesting to try and have neither Spearmen nor Silver Helms in core but instead have another block of Archers. This game also made me wonder a bit if Spearmen wouldn't be so bad to keep in the list as Silver Helms would have done much worse against Executioners, though, in fairness, they also would have been fielded much differently so the same combat situation likely wouldn't occur.



I'm hoping to play against these opponents again before too long, and then we will schedule on a different day and plan to play more games so that they don't get cut short again. However, this was still good fun!


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:32 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
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CaledorRises wrote:
This is the second Daemon Prince list I've seen and it's the second to not feature a scroll. It just seems that a scroll might not fit that well in since you'd need to buy a new hero and then a unit to bunker that hero in, at least in this list the only unit that could be used as a bunker would be the Chaos Knights and that prevents them from performing their intended roll to some extent.

Solid point CR. I might have looked at a Tzeentch Sorcerer on Disc or Daemonic Mount instead of the Khorne guy. Something like Scroll, Enchanted Shield, Opal Amulet, Ironcurse, Burning Body. With MoT that’s 1+ AS, 3++ vs first wound, 4++ vs Flaming, 5++ vs War Machines. Enemy cannon should prioritise the DP and BSB and he can hide behind the Juggers. I still prefer the WoC list with Tzeentch Warriors and Blasted Standard as they can shelter characters.

CaledorRises wrote:
the hated Dark Elves

Funny that. Seredain for example was the nicest and most civilised chap you could ever wish to meet but he detested DE’s. I’d never seen him so happy as when he royally swept them off the table once.

CaledorRises wrote:
Supreme Sorceress Level 4 w/ Lore of Life

This can be a solid choice because DE’s have shooting for board control. Normally though she’s paired with 2 x 5 Warlocks. This game is a great case in point because mobile boosted Doombolt would actually be a very necessary threat to your Phoenixes.

CaledorRises wrote:
~40 Dreadspears FC
~30 Executioners FC
12x Cold One Knights FC w/ Banner of Swiftness

These units are suspect, Killing Blow is the only standout. Yes the list has shooting but those RBT need turns to take down your flyers and they’re not going to get them. There are no powerful DE fighting characters on pegasi for example. This is a strong match-up for you.

Deployment looks good for the HE’s, the flyers should get into the DE’s before any counterattack gets going. I feel there has to be a good reason not to deploy RBT on the baseline. Yes the wood but even so. I liked the use of the Breath Weapon here. Failing that Ld 10 test was very unlucky. I agree, more turns would have seen you clean up. I take the point about avoidance lists, your flyers do have huge threat zones though. There’s a case for dropping a Phoenix for 4 RBT.

As for Core, HE’s don’t really have a solid equivalent to Chaos Warriors, Plaguebearers or Savage Orcs. Silver Helms are favourite but those work best with characters and you’ve sunk a lot of those points into Dragon Princes CR. Small units of 5 make sense but not for the whole allowance, obviously.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:24 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Solid point CR. I might have looked at a Tzeentch Sorcerer on Disc or Daemonic Mount instead of the Khorne guy. Something like Scroll, Enchanted Shield, Opal Amulet, Ironcurse, Burning Body. With MoT that’s 1+ AS, 3++ vs first wound, 4++ vs Flaming, 5++ vs War Machines. Enemy cannon should prioritise the DP and BSB and he can hide behind the Juggers. I still prefer the WoC list with Tzeentch Warriors and Blasted Standard as they can shelter characters.


Yeah, I think the Khorne hero was a bit unnecessary in the Skullcrushers, he might have been more interesting if used as a cowboy. I'd also like a Tzeentch Warrior block, I've got a WoC army in boxes that I intend to assemble one day, and it features a Tzeentch Warrior block as a hard anvil since they are so difficult to shift. I'm also just a bigger fan of Tzeentch than Nurgle personally.

SpellArcher wrote:
Funny that. Seredain for example was the nicest and most civilised chap you could ever wish to meet but he detested DE’s. I’d never seen him so happy as when he royally swept them off the table once.


Sounds like a stand up guy. :D

SpellArcher wrote:
This can be a solid choice because DE’s have shooting for board control. Normally though she’s paired with 2 x 5 Warlocks. This game is a great case in point because mobile boosted Doombolt would actually be a very necessary threat to your Phoenixes.


Yeah, Doombolt was a possible threat. Actually on Turn 2 when the Dreadspears wheeled to face the Frostheart near them they tried to fire Doombolt, but realized they were accidentally 20" away instead of 18". This later meant that the Frostheart and Dragon Princes had to go into the Bolt Throwers because I couldn't make that long of a charge, so I'm not sure if it was better for my opponent or not because it could have put some of my units out of position. A mobile caster would have been very interesting, though, particularly Warlocks. I thought Lore of Life was very good for the purpose of buffing the Executioner unit, but it seemed a bit out of place fighting against my list since he didn't have any really good Dwellers targets and also I didn't think his list had a good model to act as a sink for those Lifebloom points. Something like a Hydra could have been really interesting.

SpellArcher wrote:
These units are suspect, Killing Blow is the only standout. Yes the list has shooting but those RBT need turns to take down your flyers and they’re not going to get them. There are no powerful DE fighting characters on pegasi for example. This is a strong match-up for you.

Deployment looks good for the HE’s, the flyers should get into the DE’s before any counterattack gets going. I feel there has to be a good reason not to deploy RBT on the baseline. Yes the wood but even so. I liked the use of the Breath Weapon here. Failing that Ld 10 test was very unlucky. I agree, more turns would have seen you clean up. I take the point about avoidance lists, your flyers do have huge threat zones though. There’s a case for dropping a Phoenix for 4 RBT.

As for Core, HE’s don’t really have a solid equivalent to Chaos Warriors, Plaguebearers or Savage Orcs. Silver Helms are favourite but those work best with characters and you’ve sunk a lot of those points into Dragon Princes CR. Small units of 5 make sense but not for the whole allowance, obviously.


I definitely agree on the Cold Ones, we discussed it afterwards and agreed that the unit should have been split up into two. I don't think Cold One Knights work very well in two ranks since the Cold Ones themselves are so important to the hitting power. My opponent mentioned the lack of a Pegasus rider, I think it was because of the need to carry a small case to the store on the day in question that a Pegasus rider couldn't fit in.

Yeah, the threat zones from the fliers are good, I'd just be concerned about the possibility of being outmaneuvered to not having good things to charge. I think I could fight an avoidance list but it would take very careful positioning and would be one of the less forgiving match-ups for this list. Dropping the Phoenix for Bolt Throwers does help target the avoidance lists, but I feel it's also a risky move against a fast list. For instance in this game the Shades and one of the Dark Rider units were both a bit out of place because they managed to outflank my line but then there wasn't much to do behind my line anyways. Adding in Bolt Throwers gives me a better counter to those Shades and Dark Riders but conversely gives the Shades and Dark Riders more targets!

I'm thinking the main purpose of the Silver Helm block will be to add more bodies to a charge from Dragon Princes meaning more kills and a faster break or to provide static combat res for a Phoenix or Star Dragon charge, particularly with the possibility of accepting the challenges my Star Dragon might not want to accept like what I did to the Daemon Prince. It's the same job that the small Dragon Princes and the large Dragon Prince units perform, but is just another unit that can do it making the list easier to run with. The biggest sacrifice is really the loss of a unit that can provide good holding Steadfast.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:03 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
Yeah, Doombolt was a possible threat. Actually on Turn 2 when the Dreadspears wheeled to face the Frostheart near them they tried to fire Doombolt, but realized they were accidentally 20" away instead of 18".

The boosted version has a 24” range CR, your opponent should definitely have 6-diced it. Chances are he puts 2 or 3 wounds on, unless you scroll it.

CaledorRises wrote:
A mobile caster would have been very interesting, though, particularly Warlocks.

They’re a no-brainer, such powerful magic outside of character allowance.

CaledorRises wrote:
I thought Lore of Life was very good for the purpose of buffing the Executioner unit, but it seemed a bit out of place fighting against my list since he didn't have any really good Dwellers targets

First question when building a list, can it counter a Dragon?

CaledorRises wrote:
I definitely agree on the Cold Ones, we discussed it afterwards and agreed that the unit should have been split up into two. I don't think Cold One Knights work very well in two ranks since the Cold Ones themselves are so important to the hitting power.

While I agree with this I fear that your list is going to eat him alive either way CR. These troops don’t help with his anti-flyer problem. In the end, the question (also for Dragon Princes) is not even whether it’s a good or bad unit. These points are not Core, Warlocks and fighting characters are so much more of a priority.

CaledorRises wrote:
Yeah, the threat zones from the fliers are good, I'd just be concerned about the possibility of being outmaneuvered to not having good things to charge. I think I could fight an avoidance list but it would take very careful positioning and would be one of the less forgiving match-ups for this list.

Flyers are even faster and more flexible than Fast Cav but they can’t shoot. Except for the Breath Weapon, which is really helpful, Wood Elves for example hate it. I’m not sure this is a bad match-up though, be interesting to see it played.

CaledorRises wrote:
Dropping the Phoenix for Bolt Throwers does help target the avoidance lists, but I feel it's also a risky move against a fast list. For instance in this game the Shades and one of the Dark Rider units were both a bit out of place because they managed to outflank my line but then there wasn't much to do behind my line anyways. Adding in Bolt Throwers gives me a better counter to those Shades and Dark Riders but conversely gives the Shades and Dark Riders more targets!

Careful deployment should be able to virtually exclude Scouts from our table half because of the 12” rule. With the enemy light troops in front and our RBT on the baseline, it looks better. Plus those RBT will be spaced and are only 70pts each. In the Chaos game they would have made the DP think twice about exposing himself and could have hammered advancing Skullcrushers. The second Phoenix is also a good choice of course.

CaledorRises wrote:
I'm thinking the main purpose of the Silver Helm block will be to add more bodies to a charge from Dragon Princes meaning more kills and a faster break or to provide static combat res for a Phoenix or Star Dragon charge, particularly with the possibility of accepting the challenges my Star Dragon might not want to accept like what I did to the Daemon Prince. It's the same job that the small Dragon Princes and the large Dragon Prince units perform, but is just another unit that can do it making the list easier to run with. The biggest sacrifice is really the loss of a unit that can provide good holding Steadfast.

The reason Silver Helms are so favoured is that they work really well with characters. The combined unit is fast, armoured, has numbers (compare v DP’s) and the characters hit hard and are relatively safe. For a mobile, non-shooting list I feel they are better than Infantry because they can keep up and leave nothing in the way of static targets. Your big Flyers eat around 1100 pts. You need 625 Core. Just under 20 Silver Helms would leave you with a unit or two of 5 Reavers. Then just under 800pts of non-Core. It makes sense to buy World Dragon BSB, 2 x Lvl 2 and another Hero. A solid High Magic (+1 to cast) phase would really help because it can heal your flyers, move them around etc.. World Dragon makes the unit immune to half the stuff it actually cares about and the Dragon is Stubborn within 12”. As said, it’s not that Dragon Princes are a bad unit per se, it’s just that buying so many of them eats the points that could really help you buy a solid magic phase and turn your Core into a concrete threat. The Silver Helm bus looks extreme but it illustrates most of what’s on offer. There might be other ways of getting those wins into the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:49 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
The boosted version has a 24” range CR, your opponent should definitely have 6-diced it. Chances are he puts 2 or 3 wounds on, unless you scroll it.


It actually doesn't! The boosted version increases the hits to 4D6 S5 and increases the casting value to 24+ but has no affect on the range of the spell, it stays 18".

SpellArcher wrote:
They’re a no-brainer, such powerful magic outside of character allowance.


Yeah, and their ward save makes them annoyingly hard to kill, you actually have to put some effort into killing them instead of the normal fast cav counters.

SpellArcher wrote:
First question when building a list, can it counter a Dragon?


I've actually never considered that when building lists, but it is a very good question. I've never actually fought against a proper dragon, but I do want to some time. I think dragons aren't very popular in the modern meta.

SpellArcher wrote:
While I agree with this I fear that your list is going to eat him alive either way CR. These troops don’t help with his anti-flyer problem. In the end, the question (also for Dragon Princes) is not even whether it’s a good or bad unit. These points are not Core, Warlocks and fighting characters are so much more of a priority.


It probably would not have helped against my list, no, but I think it would have been an improvement to the list in general. The list definitely had maneuver issues because outside of the bolt throwers there wasn't anything that could engage my fliers in a combat outside of my choosing.

SpellArcher wrote:
Flyers are even faster and more flexible than Fast Cav but they can’t shoot. Except for the Breath Weapon, which is really helpful, Wood Elves for example hate it. I’m not sure this is a bad match-up though, be interesting to see it played.


That is true, but it's questionable if the Fast Cav can stay far enough away to make flee reactions feasible so that I keep failing forwards. I would like to try playing it, though, because avoidance lists are very interesting. I've not fought a true avoidance list before, but I think it would be possible to face one at Hockley.

SpellArcher wrote:
Careful deployment should be able to virtually exclude Scouts from our table half because of the 12” rule. With the enemy light troops in front and our RBT on the baseline, it looks better. Plus those RBT will be spaced and are only 70pts each. In the Chaos game they would have made the DP think twice about exposing himself and could have hammered advancing Skullcrushers. The second Phoenix is also a good choice of course.


Those are excellent points about the RBTs and anti-scout positioning and it does definitely constrict the DP movement and is also a good Skullcrusher counter.

SpellArcher wrote:
The reason Silver Helms are so favoured is that they work really well with characters. The combined unit is fast, armoured, has numbers (compare v DP’s) and the characters hit hard and are relatively safe. For a mobile, non-shooting list I feel they are better than Infantry because they can keep up and leave nothing in the way of static targets. Your big Flyers eat around 1100 pts. You need 625 Core. Just under 20 Silver Helms would leave you with a unit or two of 5 Reavers. Then just under 800pts of non-Core. It makes sense to buy World Dragon BSB, 2 x Lvl 2 and another Hero. A solid High Magic (+1 to cast) phase would really help because it can heal your flyers, move them around etc.. World Dragon makes the unit immune to half the stuff it actually cares about and the Dragon is Stubborn within 12”. As said, it’s not that Dragon Princes are a bad unit per se, it’s just that buying so many of them eats the points that could really help you buy a solid magic phase and turn your Core into a concrete threat. The Silver Helm bus looks extreme but it illustrates most of what’s on offer. There might be other ways of getting those wins into the list.


I think the only advantage of Silver Helms over Dragon Princes is that they are in Core, Silver Helms will only slightly outnumber Dragon Princes and every DP stat is either equal or better than Silver Helms. That said, the Core aspect is important as you've mentioned. Designing the list as you've suggested would almost certainly be more powerful than the one I've put together, though it does lack the Archers which give a slightly increased anti-chaff ability. I'm also not a fan of putting the World Dragon on the BSB, just because mundane attacks could fairly well take him down with just a maximum 2+ armor save and 6+ ward, though that ward could be boosted from the magic, but that admittedly could potentially be handled through more careful target selection. I can't make the adjustments to the list before Hockley because of limited models and time to paint, but it's something I think I should try, though that would probably be an extremely competitive build so I'd have to be sure to announce to my opponent beforehand to bring something highly competitive as well. I don't feel that that's the kind of list you bring to a friendly game!


Tomorrow I will be facing some Ogre Kingdoms, though not a tournament-style list so I will be slightly adjusting my list to drop competitiveness just a bit. My opponent will definitely have a Thundertusk and I think 4 Mournfang and probably an Irongut bus. I'm not expecting any cannons and I'm not expecting any chaff either. I think avoiding the Ironguts will be key while I destroy the rest of the list and then encircling the Ironguts. The ASL aura from the Thundertusk could be very annoying, particularly in conjunction with the Mournfang because against the Mournfang unless it's the Star Dragon or a Frostheart in combat it's quite important that the Mournfang don't get to fight. My list adjustment will be to drop on Frostheart for a Flamespyre and then add the Banner of Swiftness to the Spearmen just for the extra 15 points.


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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:04 pm 
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CaledorRises wrote:
It actually doesn't! The boosted version increases the hits to 4D6 S5 and increases the casting value to 24+ but has no affect on the range of the spell, it stays 18".

My bad. As if the spell needs to get any better.

CaledorRises wrote:
I've actually never considered that when building lists, but it is a very good question. I've never actually fought against a proper dragon, but I do want to some time. I think dragons aren't very popular in the modern meta.

Milton Keynes last year was won by a list like yours CR. Monster mash Lizardmen did well too! Some people shy away from the Dragon because of cannon but if it can roam freely it’s a terror.

CaledorRises wrote:
It probably would not have helped against my list, no, but I think it would have been an improvement to the list in general. The list definitely had maneuver issues because outside of the bolt throwers there wasn't anything that could engage my fliers in a combat outside of my choosing.

Looking at the models your opponent used he might be well served combining the Dark Riders and putting a couple of Fast Cav characters in there.

CaledorRises wrote:
Those are excellent points about the RBTs and anti-scout positioning and it does definitely constrict the DP movement and is also a good Skullcrusher counter.

Thank you. The beauty of RBT of course is that you can pick a unit to hit almost anywhere on the table so they kind of project threat even further than fliers.

CaledorRises wrote:
That said, the Core aspect is important as you've mentioned.

It’s not that your list isn’t strong and needs a big power boost. It’s more that I feel your Core is not working efficiently with the fliers.

CaledorRises wrote:
though it does lack the Archers which give a slightly increased anti-chaff ability.

One thing you would get from the magic is mobile double Soul Quench.

CaledorRises wrote:
I'm also not a fan of putting the World Dragon on the BSB, just because mundane attacks could fairly well take him down with just a maximum 2+ armor save and 6+ ward, though that ward could be boosted from the magic, but that admittedly could potentially be handled through more careful target selection.

Fair point, the mobility and presence of the fliers are factors here. Some of the time simply moving the magic and BSB re-rolls around suffices.

CaledorRises wrote:
I can't make the adjustments to the list before Hockley because of limited models and time to paint, but it's something I think I should try, though that would probably be an extremely competitive build so I'd have to be sure to announce to my opponent beforehand to bring something highly competitive as well. I don't feel that that's the kind of list you bring to a friendly game!

Again a fair point. Though TBH the three flyers make the list a bit scary to face already. Another reason I like RBT instead of the second Phoenix, it’s less directly intimidating but gives more flexibility against a wider range of enemies.

CaledorRises wrote:
Tomorrow I will be facing some Ogre Kingdoms, though not a tournament-style list so I will be slightly adjusting my list to drop competitiveness just a bit. My opponent will definitely have a Thundertusk and I think 4 Mournfang and probably an Irongut bus. I'm not expecting any cannons and I'm not expecting any chaff either. I think avoiding the Ironguts will be key while I destroy the rest of the list and then encircling the Ironguts. The ASL aura from the Thundertusk could be very annoying, particularly in conjunction with the Mournfang because against the Mournfang unless it's the Star Dragon or a Frostheart in combat it's quite important that the Mournfang don't get to fight. My list adjustment will be to drop on Frostheart for a Flamespyre and then add the Banner of Swiftness to the Spearmen just for the extra 15 points.


Those Ironblasters are obviously a big miss against your flyers, so I can see why you would want to tone things down a bit. I agree, it’s probably a case of handling the Gutbus carefully and the rest will follow.

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 Post subject: Re: Dragonlord Rising
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:17 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Milton Keynes last year was won by a list like yours CR. Monster mash Lizardmen did well too! Some people shy away from the Dragon because of cannon but if it can roam freely it’s a terror.


Interesting. That's good news! Also good news on the Lizardmen, hopefully I'll have enough stuff painted to take a Lizardmen army to one of the upcoming events after Hockley.

SpellArcher wrote:
Looking at the models your opponent used he might be well served combining the Dark Riders and putting a couple of Fast Cav characters in there.


I once saw a Dark Elf list that had a unit of 10 Dark Riders with a Sorceress of Beasts and 5 Masters on Dark Riders that then used the boosted Beasts spells to turn the Masters into absolute monsters. It was a very brutal list, but the fight I saw it in was against Ogres and when the Riders went into the Gutbus initially they tore it to shreds but on the next turn the Beast magic was stopped and suddenly the Masters began to die and the list collapsed.

SpellArcher wrote:
It’s not that your list isn’t strong and needs a big power boost. It’s more that I feel your Core is not working efficiently with the fliers.


Yeah, it is a bit out of place. I'd like to also try Reaver spam sometime, I've seen lists that have 4-5 units of them in Core and that could be interesting. They're a bit hard to come by now, though, since Island of Blood is no longer in production.

SpellArcher wrote:
One thing you would get from the magic is mobile double Soul Quench.


True, but that does require your unit to be facing the chaff to cast and can be stopped by dispels or hampered by weak winds of magic, whereas Archer fire can only be impeded by magical buffs on a chaff unit or by debuffs on the Archers, and if the enemy is buffing their chaff or debuffing the Archers then they aren't using the magic to harm things that really matter.


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