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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:06 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
It makes me wonder if you can become a better (elf) player by also playing other armies which don't have these advantages.

I like to think so Rod. You lose so much flexibility. On the other hand Daemonic Instability is amazing.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Of course, having very limited shooting (with a mind of its own as well) didn't help.

Correct tactics for Empire/VC's were shoot the objective and use army to slow Chaos progress to their objective, not that complex. On the other hand, RE had to balance taking units down against moving faster. It's arguably the case that shooting lists are simpler to play than aggressive ones.

RE.Lee wrote:
On the Blasted Banner. With the 1+ armour save of the Knights S2 is not that much of a difference compared to S4.

True, damage is pretty similar from Handgunners with the Banner or without. But these are short-ranged so won't get many shots, you can screen the Knights etc.. Better vs Helblaster. Vs cannons it's awesome because T5 Tzeentch characters with 3+ Wards become very, very hard to kill.

RE.Lee wrote:
Loremaster, ToPreservation, Dispel Scroll
Archmage level 4 Shadow, ToEndurance, BoHoeth

Serious magic phase, though no Prince killing power of course.

RE.Lee wrote:
BSB, SoMight, Shield of Merwyrm, Golden Crown

Solid but Sword of Anti-heroes might have been even better.

RE.Lee wrote:
24 Spearmen, command, BoDiscipline
24 Spearmen, command
10 Archers
5 Reavers

I'd have spammed Archers here, especially considering The Withering.

RE.Lee wrote:
19 Phoenix Guards, command, BoSwiftness
21 White Lions, command, BotWorldDragon

Pretty good, I guess the PG won't face that much armour.

RE.Lee wrote:
2x Eagle
2x RBT
Frost Phoenix

:)

RE.Lee wrote:
Vamp Lord, Level 4 Vampires, ASF, Red Fury, +2S, Periapt, 4++
Strigoi King, Level 1 Vampires, ASF, Red Fury, +1S

I call that aggressive. No match for your spell repertoire though.

RE.Lee wrote:
3 Spirit Hosts
5 Hexwraiths

You have Loremaster and Frostheart of course. Ah, I've just seen deployment, unfortunate. I still think the Phoenix is your ace card here though.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:35 am 
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I considered a Mounted Lord, but figured he'd get chewed up by the Vamp anyway.

You're right about SoAntiheroes - it would have been a better choice.

Spearmen were there to grind Zombies mostly, though Archers would probably do that just as well. I love my Spearmen though :wink:

With the general lack of magical attacks (didn't expect the Ethereals to be back) the Frostie was a important asset.

The Vampire list was indeed quite straightforward - some chaff, some tar pits and 2 super strong infantry blocks.

Lets see how it went:

Turn 1:

I start off by reshuffling my units a bit - the Phoenix redeployed to the right, to face the Ethereals.
Magic kills 4 Hexwraiths, as my opponent fails to dispel Burning Gaze.
Shooting kills some Dire Wolves.

Image

Hexwraith charges my RBT. Vargheists jump over the Fort. Everything else moves up.
Magic is mostly stopped, though I let the Skeletons enter the fort. I figure I should be able to get rid of them.
Hexwraith is actually held by the RBT crew.

Image

Turn 2:

Spearmen assault the Fort. Reavers and Eagles move to counter the Vargheists, should they try and hit my flank. Frostie moves further down the flank, to keep the Ghouls honest.
Magic does nothing, as does shooting.
Hexwraith finishes off the RBT, while the Spearmen are beaten by Skeletons (the humiliation!)

Image

Vargheists charge my Spearmen, I'm glad its in the flank as the Archmage is safe and I have counter charges set up. Hexwraith goes for my other RBT. Everything else moves up again.
I let through Flaming Rod on the Phoenix Guards - they suffer no casualties from the D6 S4 and I do not intend to move them anyway. I also allow Gaze of Nagash on the White Lions - the BotWD protects them with ease. Other spells are stopped.
Hexwraith is stopped again (brave crew!), and the Vargheists kills several Spearmen, suffer some wounds and I hold on Steadfast.

Image

An unusual opening to a battle, with both sides afraid to really commit. Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:25 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
I considered a Mounted Lord, but figured he'd get chewed up by the Vamp anyway.

Depends with Cavalry Prince but he'd need a full bus. Star Dragon Prince eats the Vamp.

RE.Lee wrote:
Spearmen were there to grind Zombies mostly, though Archers would probably do that just as well. I love my Spearmen though

Me too.

RE.Lee wrote:
Magic kills 4 Hexwraiths,

Helpful but 5 would have saved your RBT.

RE.Lee wrote:
Spearmen are beaten by Skeletons (the humiliation!)

I rest my case.

:)

RE.Lee wrote:
Thoughts?

The Frostheart needs to get stuck in ASAP.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:51 pm 
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Good points. A SH bus with a Prince and a BSB with the BotWD would be a good idea, especially in team with a Frostie.

Spearmen fighting 10 vs 10 did not end well, the Skellies were still boosted by Van Hels, too.

Turn 3:

I charge the Vargheists with Reavers and an Eagle. The Frostie moves to the back of the Ghouls.
Magic puts two wounds on the Spirit Hosts and I Miasma (-1WS) the Vargheists.
Vargheists kill the Reavers, but the combat continues. Hexwraith finished off the other RBT.

Image

Hexwraith charges the Archers and I flee off the field in terror... Spirit Hosts charge the White Lions - I have a 2+ ward against Magical Attacks, but they're immune to mine so this might take a while. Zombies and Ghouls turn to face my Phoenix, while the other Zombie unit and the Grave Guards push towards my center, with the Dire Wolves acting as redirectors.
Magic does nothing of note.
Spirit Hosts crumble a bit due to static CR. I finish off the Vargheists.

Image

Turn 4:

I charge the Dire Wolves with the Phoenix Guards, the Crypt Horrors in the back with the Frostie. The Spearmen join the White Lions against the Spirit Hosts for some more static res. I block the Grave Guards with an eagle.
Magic does little.
The Frostie suffers 3 wounds (!) and barely wins the combat. Phoenix Guards wipe out the Wolves. Spirit Hosts crumble some more, but hold. I reform sideways to the unit I'm fighting with anticipating a charge from the Zombies (my opponent calls it illegal, but fails to find any rule against it - opinions?)

Image

Grave Guards charge the Eagle. Opponent tries to argue he could charge my Spearmen with his Ghouls but they were in the front arch and could not fit in front of the Zombies, so I refuse to allow it (opinions?). He just moves up. Other Zombies move towards my Spearmen near the Fort.
Magic is mostly stopped (only the northern Zombies move some more).
Grave Guards kill Eagle and overrun into Phoenix Guards. This should be fun. Again I fail to crumble the Spirit Hosts. Phoenix fares better but is still stuck with the Crypt Horrors, with the Ghouls now a real threat.

Image

Ok, things are getting interesting now!
Any thoughts on the two tricky situations we had (the Spearmen reform and Ghoul charge)?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:01 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Hexwraith charges the Archers and I flee off the field in terror...

One guy has taken out the whole firebase.

RE.Lee wrote:
The Frostie suffers 3 wounds (!)

Damn Poison!

RE.Lee wrote:
I reform sideways to the unit I'm fighting

Can’t see a problem, so long as all the models in contact remain so. Possibly an issue with command models needing to be in the new front rank?

RE.Lee wrote:
Grave Guards kill Eagle and overrun into Phoenix Guards. This should be fun.

I’d fancy the PG, were it not for the vampires.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:43 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
One guy has taken out the whole firebase.


Sad, but the shooters were doing little in the first place. Simply to many undead bodies to take care of with arrows.

Turn 5:

I charge the side of the Grave Guards with my Eagle, for some extra CR. Spearmen move in front of the Zombies.
Magic is very good as I manage to cast Withering on the Grave Guards, for a tremendous -3T!
This helps my unit immensely and some 11 undead elites go down to my guys, while I only lose 6 PGs and the Eagle. More GGs crumble but the Vampire is still there. I finally finish off the Spirit Hosts and my guys are ready to assault the hill. The Frostie keeps fighting with the lone Crypt Horror.

Image

Ghouls charge my Frostie. Hexwraith assaults the PGs in the rear. Zombies charge the Spearmen in the north while the ones on the hill hold back.
My opponent dispels Withering and so manages no spells of his own.
Ghouls kill Frostie, though I do slay the last Crypt Horror before I die. The Phoenix Guards again do great - I kill all the Grave Guards, and crumble the Hexwraith, the BSB and put a wound on the Vampire Lord! The Spearmen grind well with the Zombies, but I lose my Archmage to the Wraith...

Image

Turn 6:

Charge the hill! Spearmen into the Zombies, White Lions into the Ghouls.
No real shooting or magic.
The Vampire challenges and I accept with my BSB but still die to his flurry of attacks. I hold, but seem unlikely to finish off the enemy general. I am relieved to find out the Strigoi has a magical weapon and so the White Lions whoop the Ghouls good. Both Spearmen units do well against their respective Zombie opponents as well. Could I grind them down in time?

Image

No movement.
In the magic phase my opponent throws caution to the wind and goes for a big Nehek, to put some more bodies in front of my victorious troops on the hill. He gets an Irresistible Force and so several Undead are brought back - crucially 16 Zombies on the main objective! The miscast turns out to be a Cascade, however, and it seems his gains might be reversed in an instant. In this climactic moment the ancient Vampire manages to escape his doom, as my opponent rolls a 4. That was close!
The Vamp kills the PG champion. The White Lions finish off the Ghouls, with the Strigoi the last to crumble. The Spearmen, unfortunately, leave 11 Zombies standing on the hill and so preventing me from claiming the objective - that last spell did prove to be crucial, after all!

Image

The Vampire Counts win 1:0!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:47 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Sad, but the shooters were doing little in the first place. Simply to many undead bodies to take care of with arrows.

I disagree here RE, the Crypt Horrors are a target. Also, if you can get The Withering off the shooting gets very nasty.

RE.Lee wrote:
Phoenix Guards again do great

I suspect Rod will have something to say about this! Once again, that vamp is sorely missing the OTS.

RE.Lee wrote:
The White Lions finish off the Ghouls

The Lions had a great game.

RE.Lee wrote:
The Vampire Counts win 1:0!

:(

Maybe worth putting Lions or PG into the building? The Frostheart really needed to get his Thunderstomp going to give you an edge on the hill. It was close though.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:20 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
I disagree here RE, the Crypt Horrors are a target. Also, if you can get The Withering off the shooting gets very nasty.


Thats what I thought initially, but with them potentially getting back D6+4 wounds from Nehek I'd need to wipe them out or it wouldn't matter (T5, 5+ regen is hard to get past). Withering is a great spell and I'm happy how well Shadow worked together with the Loremaster - it has those big spells to compliment the signature spam. It also works defensively due to RiPlay. Pity I couldn't get Mindrazor on the PGs when it mattered, as the Archmage was singing with the choir invisible at the time.

Again, agree on the OTS. The Vamp is a killer, but those 4++ blunted his attack.

I was looking forward to fielding the Frostie, as there were seemingly few things my opponent had to counter it (I was concerned about any Terrorgheists, but none were fielded). As it turned out the bird was confronted either by units that would chew it up (Ghouls, GGs) or ones designed to tie him up (Zombies, Skellies). I went for using him to freak out the enemy right wing, which worked ok but when a 240p monster can't deal with a small (and already weakened) unit of Crypt Horrors there's not much you can do. I wonder what I could have done to make him work better?

I already have a new list in mind, with the SH/BotWD bus that, surprisingly, I've never fielded before. The Frostie will help them out against non-magical attacks. The PGs also deserve to by increased to 25. I'm considering giving them a High Magic babysitter (though thats less important against a non-shooting army like the VC perhaps.)

Thanks for the comments! I'm not sure I'll be able to fit a rematch before the big finale late October, but we'll see :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:56 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Thats what I thought initially, but with them potentially getting back D6+4 wounds from Nehek I'd need to wipe them out or it wouldn't matter

While this is a good point, this spell is not automatically going to be cast RE. You have a scroll. The Book helps. As you yourself point out, you may have a RIP spell up he really wants to dispel (as happened). He was also within a whisker of Cascading because if you have 5-6 DD he really has to go for it.

RE.Lee wrote:
I was looking forward to fielding the Frostie, as there were seemingly few things my opponent had to counter it (I was concerned about any Terrorgheists, but none were fielded). As it turned out the bird was confronted either by units that would chew it up (Ghouls, GGs) or ones designed to tie him up (Zombies, Skellies). I went for using him to freak out the enemy right wing, which worked ok but when a 240p monster can't deal with a small (and already weakened) unit of Crypt Horrors there's not much you can do. I wonder what I could have done to make him work better?

Poison is an issue for him but that Crypt Horror combat looked very unlucky to me. They need 6’s to wound without Poison, you have 5+ AS, 5+ Ward (1/3 of the time it’s 4+). On full wounds he should beat the Ghouls.

I would have deployed the shooters further back and put the Phoenix down last. He could have countered the Hexwraiths and then hopefully got stuck in on the hill.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:36 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
You have a scroll. The Book helps.


True, I really did manage to stop Nehek quite well until the final turn.

In other news I've finished another 15 of Gors (thats 30/60 done!) and I've started working on the Hellcannon. Its a really tricky model with mechanical and organic bits intertwined - makes it really hard to paint, but I've based my colour scheme on Gray's on I'm doing my best to make it look half-decent. Pics soon, hopefully :)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:23 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Pics soon, hopefully

Looking forward to them. I really should have got myself a Hellcannon.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:17 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
RE.Lee wrote:
Phoenix Guards again do great

I suspect Rod will have something to say about this!

Not much actually ;) I'm not that surprised by their performance. They can take a huge amount of punishment and dish out some hurt in return. Especially if backed up by some magic. They are the only unit we have that you can put somewhere and "forget about". It takes some serious effort to shift 19 of them. Their biggest enemy is "no saves allowed" magic, and then only a few spells. Mainly Dreaded 13th and Dwellers.

I always do wonder if a high magic babysitter is overkill or not. It's great to get a 3+ ward save. But there perhaps are other units that need it more. And you can only spend your points once. They already take much punishment and are expensive enough. I am wondering if increasing their unit size is the way to go. I'm not sure having them bigger would have had much impact on the battle. Especially considering that it would also mean dropping something else.

As for frosty, the main thing to realise is that it's not star dragon. He's better in combat then the flamespire, but not by much. But combat is also not his purpose. He's there to support other combats and units. He can hold stuff up if needed, but don't expect him to singlehandedly beat stuff. So don't charge him into combats solo. Hoe is a force multiplier. With the -1S and ASL he easily swings any combined combat into your favour, simply by virtue of being there. He prevents your units from taking damage and with giving ASL, he makes sure you get the rerolls vs almost anything.

Your shooting performed as expected. I never really hit anything with my archers. Mine couldn't hit a house from 5 meters away. So I never really expect them to do anything. That way, they at least can't disappoint me (much...)

Rod

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
always do wonder if a high magic babysitter is overkill or not. It's great to get a 3+ ward save. But there perhaps are other units that need it more. And you can only spend your points once. They already take much punishment and are expensive enough. I am wondering if increasing their unit size is the way to go. I'm not sure having them bigger would have had much impact on the battle. Especially considering that it would also mean dropping something else.

I think it depends what you’re facing Rod. Even PG can be shot down with enough arrows and the 3++ definitely helps there. Seredain found that it gave him a crucial edge in the really tough combats. The unit did OK here but Withering really helped. I would be very concerned against a Vamp Lord with OTS. The High Archmage would give the 3++ but the vamp might well kill him. Numbers would at least hold for longer. In this particular case Shadow obviously isn’t a bad call, Mindrazor looms large. Half the reason for running the Archmage in the PG is to get into spell range, so whether that’s desirable impacts the Lore choice.

Prince of Spires wrote:
As for frosty, the main thing to realise is that it's not star dragon. He's better in combat then the flamespire, but not by much. But combat is also not his purpose. He's there to support other combats and units. He can hold stuff up if needed, but don't expect him to singlehandedly beat stuff. So don't charge him into combats solo. Hoe is a force multiplier. With the -1S and ASL he easily swings any combined combat into your favour, simply by virtue of being there. He prevents your units from taking damage and with giving ASL, he makes sure you get the rerolls vs almost anything.

The more I play with the Frostheart the more I realise how awesome he is. Put him into almost anything within BSB range and he’ll hold it. He’ll kill most Infantry blocks solo because of Thunderstomp. As said, combine him with a combat block and crush things. Here he got really unlucky with Poison, the Crypt Horrors did 3 wounds first round when the average was 1.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Your shooting performed as expected. I never really hit anything with my archers. Mine couldn't hit a house from 5 meters away. So I never really expect them to do anything. That way, they at least can't disappoint me (much...)

There are several factors here. Deployment is really important, to get the right target early. HE archery works really well with spells like Withering and Hand. I played my last event without archers and I really missed them. There are match-ups where they struggle to have an impact but here I really think reducing the Crypt Horrors before the Frostheart hit would have made a difference. Thunderstomp vs Infantry blocks was really important here.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:55 pm 
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Insightful discussion!

On shooting:
I only added the 10 archers because my friend wanted to play @2600 instead of the 2400p I originally planned for. Hence the odd unit. Taking 18-21 would probably scare off any medium-strength chaff and I'd also probably position them in a place with actual line of sight to the enemy units! The hill in the middle really hampered my ability to target anything - I was hoping to use the RBTs to pepper whatever tried to claim the objective but they were out of the game before any of that happened.

On Phoenix:
Bad luck played its part but I should have been more aggressive with that entire wing. Just push up those White Lions, hoping the Strigoi has a magic weapon but jingo if it does not! With stubborn I can hold for quite a while and then hit with the Phoenix once we're stuck in.
I danced around and in the end got neither the protection from the Spirit Hosts nor help against the Ghouls. I did clear the Crypt Horrors but honestly, they wouldn't stand a chance against the White Lions anyway.

On Phoenix Guards:
I always find it funny how High Elves, an army seemingly suited to MSU work best with big units because of that fight-in-extra-rank. Getting all those 3 ranks firing with ASF really scares opponents and I think its important to keep it up for as long as possible. I was down to 2 ranks of PGs quite early and this cost me not only extra attacks, but also static CR that could have crumble the Vampire. I already tested a 25 strong unit some time ago and it worked really well, only problem is that I'd need to proxy :wink:

Current draft:

Prince, barded steed, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness
Archmage, level 4 (High?), BoHoeth, ToPreservation

BSB, barded steed, BotWD
Mage, level 2 (High?), Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury

13 Silver Helms, command, shields
20 Archers, command
5 Reavers

24 Phoenix Guards, command, Gleaming Pennant
18 Swordmasters, command, BoSwiftness

Frost Phoenix
2x Giant Eagle

A bit sad to drop the White Lions, but the Swordmasters deserve a spin against an army with no shooting. They'd also make fine assault troops against buildings. I could drop an Eagle to bring them up to 21, I guess.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:00 pm 
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Painting update!

The Hellcannon itself is finished, the general idea shamelessly stolen from Gray. Crew to be operational soon :)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:03 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
I always find it funny how High Elves, an army seemingly suited to MSU work best with big units because of that fight-in-extra-rank.

It makes a difference and so do World Dragon and Shield of Saphery. Not to mention the loss of Speed of Asuryan to Great Weapon elites.

RE.Lee wrote:
Current draft:

I know what I'd change RE but TBH it looks pretty good as is.

RE.Lee wrote:
The Hellcannon itself is finished, the general idea shamelessly stolen from Gray.

I was trying to recall what his looked like and now with this pic it's all coming back to me!

:)

RE.Lee wrote:
Crew to be operational soon

Can't wait to see them.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:47 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Current draft:

Most of the suggestions I can come up with are things that probably should be tested.

For instance, I'm wondering how much benefit you'll get out of the 20 archers. And if you would benefit more from simply increasing the SH unit and adding another 5 reavers.

Also, you could drop an eagle to free up some points and make do with only 2 redirectors. Personally I would give the razor banner to the PG, it makes them a lot more all round and dangerous. Especially since you don't really have any spells which would improve this. I'm not convinced about the usefulness of the BoSwiftness. I think the +1 movement will not matter enough in most cases. Though perhaps this is different when playing scenario's, where 1'' can make the difference between winning and losing.

You could also consider mounting the (arch)mage. That way you'd be able to keep the SH unit alive for longer thanks to some high magic ward save fun.

But as mentioned, these are really fine-tuning points and should be tested out.

SpellArcher wrote:
The more I play with the Frostheart the more I realise how awesome he is. Put him into almost anything within BSB range and he’ll hold it. He’ll kill most Infantry blocks solo because of Thunderstomp. As said, combine him with a combat block and crush things. Here he got really unlucky with Poison, the Crypt Horrors did 3 wounds first round when the average was 1.

I definitely agree. Frosty is great. But his purpose is not to single handedly beat stuff in combat. He's pretty nice against average infantry. And thunderstomp definitely helps. But he's not going to be chewing through large units by himself. He'll hold it up. But in the same way, he will get held up by a medium sized skaven clanrat unit in return as well for a long while... In that sense he is really a force multiplier. Which is a very different use from a star dragon, which in general you point to the largest, meanest, biggest threat on the table and away you go.

Rod

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:58 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
I definitely agree. Frosty is great. But his purpose is not to single handedly beat stuff in combat. He's pretty nice against average infantry. And thunderstomp definitely helps. But he's not going to be chewing through large units by himself. He'll hold it up. But in the same way, he will get held up by a medium sized skaven clanrat unit in return as well for a long while... In that sense he is really a force multiplier. Which is a very different use from a star dragon, which in general you point to the largest, meanest, biggest threat on the table and away you go.


Maybe I’m just lucky with him Rod.

:)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:38 pm 
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The Razor Banner is normally my choice for the Phoenix Guards, but against the Vampire Counts it does little. Banner of Swiftness on the other hand would allow me to get to any objective positioned on the middle line on turn 1. It didn't do much in this battle, but I'm willing to give it another go.

A mounted Archmage sounds fun, but I'm afraid he would turn the Silver Helms into a heavy cavalry unit afraid to commit. If only we had Warlocks! :lol:

I'm getting there with the Hellcannon crew. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:26 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
A mounted Archmage sounds fun, but I'm afraid he would turn the Silver Helms into a heavy cavalry unit afraid to commit. If only we had Warlocks!

Usually, the three Command models plus Prince and BSB keep the Archmage out of the front rank. Yes, someone might die but with a 4+ Ward and 3 wounds plus his powerful chums he should be OK. Especially if he brings High or Life.

RE.Lee wrote:
I'm getting there with the Hellcannon crew.

:)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:33 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
You could also consider mounting the (arch)mage.

Mounting the Mage makes sense Rod because he’s safer and the Archmage works well with the Swordmasters. They benefit from Shield of Saphery and he is arguably better positioned for spellcasting. Another option is Furion’s solo Archmage in the bus but with Life and a scroll.

RE.Lee wrote:
I'm not sure I'll be able to fit a rematch before the big finale late October, but we'll see

How’s this looking RE?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:00 am 
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All characters in one unit seems a bit too deathstarish for me :wink:

Chances of HE vs VC this month are still slim, but I did manage to finish the Hellcannon crew!

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Some more Bestigors are next probably.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:03 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
All characters in one unit seems a bit too deathstarish for me

This is the 8th Edition HE book RE! That’s how it works! Seriously, I think you can get by with Prince & BSB because World Dragon covers a lot of weaknesses and with it’s help the Prince can protect the unit by grinding down big nasties in challenges. Grave Guard KB remains an issue of course.

RE.Lee wrote:
I did manage to finish the Hellcannon crew!

Very nice, I like the metalwork.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:27 am 
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Prince&BSB is about as much as I want to keep in the bus right now. If that fails me I'll start thinking about putting an Archmage up there. Or I'll just put him on a Moon Dragon to take advantage of those combined profiles (3+, 4++ wizard, anyone?)!

Meanwhile, a nice family photo of the Beastmen. I only need to add some ranks to the infantry units and they're done. So glad!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:51 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
RE.Lee wrote:
All characters in one unit seems a bit too deathstarish for me

This is the 8th Edition HE book RE! That’s how it works! Seriously, I think you can get by with Prince & BSB because World Dragon covers a lot of weaknesses and with it’s help the Prince can protect the unit by grinding down big nasties in challenges. Grave Guard KB remains an issue of course.

It's not the only way to play the 8th ed. book though. Especially if you're not going min-max for a tournament in a meta that favours such lists. The fully loaded Prince bus is very powerful and it has few weaknesses. With BotWD only dwellers is a good magical answer. It doesn't worry too much about shooting (though a couple of doomdivers could ruin its day). And it is highly maneuverable.

However, it's still only one unit. 2 eagles and a unit of reavers can keep it out of the game for 3 turns. And a MSU list will run circles around it. And it can only be at one place at a time. It's hard to fight it directly. But if you can feed it low points units then it will not achieve enough over the course of the game.

I believe one of the reasons it ended up as one of the strong units in the book and a core for HE tournament lists is the arms race tournaments were in. They evolved towards bigger and stronger units and it ended up being that the guy who could put the strongest, biggest, baddest (monstrous) cavalry unit on the table would win. I'm not sure if it always wins out vs more balanced lists.

Also, and that is a big difference here, if you're playing with objectives and scenario's then you will probably want to spread your chances. As seen during the Alderfen/Heffengen Chaos vs VC + empire game, you don't need to actually beat your opponent to win the game if there's objectives involved. And a maxed out SH bus is perhaps decent at grabbing a single objective, but you don't want it chasing after several different gnoblars who are wandering all over the place. Or defending a hill. The bus will go down when it's stuck in place for several turns holding an objective and it's assaulted from multiple sides.

Of course, the most important consideration is, as always, will you and your opponent enjoy the game with that unit on the table or not? :)

Rod

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:04 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
2 eagles and a unit of reavers can keep it out of the game for 3 turns.

Generally such a unit will be backed up by enough shooting and Magic Missiles to reduce the chances of this Rod. This is why for example, Helms are popular as MSU Core because they are harder to remove at range.

Prince of Spires wrote:
And a MSU list will run circles around it.

It’s cat and mouse. This can happen, or the MSU can be restricted by the charge threat.

Prince of Spires wrote:
I'm not sure if it always wins out vs more balanced lists.

The problem is that it’s very hard to get points from such a fast, well-armoured unit that laughs off most magic and a lot of shooting. It’s hard to fight because a lot of powerful combat units depend on Magical attacks. So even if it can be kept away from it’s best targets, it’s still superb points denial that can gallop around throwing magic at stuff and eating small units.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Also, and that is a big difference here, if you're playing with objectives and scenario's then you will probably want to spread your chances.

Good point. Here, the more balanced versions (only 3 characters in bus) have an edge I think. Like Seredain’s build with PG, or Furion’s with Lions. Of course those lack World Dragon on the bus. Curu’s ‘medium’ bus with Star Dragon similarly brings 2 major threats.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:35 am 
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It's definitely not an easy list to deal with. Though I disagree that there will be a lot of magic missiles to worry about. A helm deathstar will run high, which has 1 MM. The archmage will want to do most casting of spells to get the ward save up. So any backup mage will not cast a lot. Shooting you can have a lot of. Serredain ran 24 archers and 4 RBT. Which can deal with a lot of redirectors. Though it must be said that all that shooting also needs to deal with a lot of other things on the table and take care of itself.

The main charm of the list I think is that it's just very hard to score points of it. Taking Serredain's list as an example again, the easy points are the 4 RBT (which you could spread out making it hard to get to all of them fast), the archers and the unit of reavers. The PG and SH unit are tough to get any points from.

On the other hand, it does also mean that the archers and RBT can be under pressure from T2 onward.

The thing with a MSU list is that it doesn't actually matter if in this scenario you get charged or not. The only thing you need to take care of is that you don't offer any overruns into other units (since then your army can start to melt quite fast). But the units in a MSU army should be cheap enough to not matter if one or two of them get charged. They will not give up enough points to the SH bus for it to make its points back.

Rod

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:09 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Though I disagree that there will be a lot of magic missiles to worry about. A helm deathstar will run high, which has 1 MM.

This can vary Rod. Curu’s Star Dragon support bus for example had 2xlvl2 on High plus I think Ring of Fury. Death is very dangerous but brings snipes rather than magic missiles.

Prince of Spires wrote:
The archmage will want to do most casting of spells to get the ward save up. So any backup mage will not cast a lot.

Again, I think it depends what threats there are to the bus, whether it carries World Dragon etc..

Prince of Spires wrote:
The main charm of the list I think is that it's just very hard to score points of it. Taking Serredain's list as an example again, the easy points are the 4 RBT (which you could spread out making it hard to get to all of them fast), the archers and the unit of reavers. The PG and SH unit are tough to get any points from.

I agree, though Seredain could usually be relied on to roll the dice and make some very aggressive moves! The real soul crusher was the ETC list with 20 Helms and 5 characters. Finreir of this forum had a particular hatred for it.

Prince of Spires wrote:
The thing with a MSU list is that it doesn't actually matter if in this scenario you get charged or not. The only thing you need to take care of is that you don't offer any overruns into other units (since then your army can start to melt quite fast). But the units in a MSU army should be cheap enough to not matter if one or two of them get charged.

Playing MSU is not easy here because you constantly need to calculate whether each of your units would Flee or Hold, what would happen etc.. If a unit gets destroyed or broken that gives the bus the choice of Overrunning or Reforming to face the direction it wants. If a unit breaks in your own turn, that’s a bus Reform facing any direction followed by a long charge in it’s turn. It can be managed but it requires good concentration.

Prince of Spires wrote:
They will not give up enough points to the SH bus for it to make its points back.

I disagree with this concept. Killing stuff is not the only measure of a unit’s contribution. If the bus for example kills a few units and doesn’t die, it’s player may well win because he’s getting all sorts of other utility from his characters (magic offense/defence, Ld, re-rolls etc.) while this happens. He’s also restricting what his opponent can do with the threat of the bus. Plus there simply may not be that many points for the enemy to kill that are not in the bus.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:58 pm 
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No doubt - the Helm Bus remains one of our power lists. It has few downsides - being a very quick deathstar it can get where it wants to and the rest of our list helps deal with the redirectors.

It could probably even do well in most of our scenarios, though that could be a bit tricky.

I'm still unlikely to field it though :wink:

I've started working on the Crushers. I found a nice colour scheme online - off-black on the riders, off-white on the juggers and brass to pull it together. The details will be red and green with verdigris tones on the armour. Should work well!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:53 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
off-white on the juggers

Promising.

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