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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:02 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
They're all a bit funny in the head. It's what you get from too much tree hugging and spending time around dead people...
;)


On top of that - its the End Times! :D

Thunderstomps can be deadly, as my poor Gor find out battle after battle... Thats against the Treeman's S5, S6 is quite something else. Pity it can't be used against cavalry, that extra bit of strength could really come in handy against a 1+ save.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:01 am 
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No cannon present either.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:14 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Thats against the Treeman's S5, S6 is quite something else.

True. Though it depends a bit what you're up against. S5 goes a long way vs rats or elves for instance. T3 and usually no better then a 5+ armour save. But the extra bit of S helps against tougher or better armoured models.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:37 am 
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Going from the old Wood Elf book to the current one, I did find the Treeman's drop from S6 to S5 a pain. But given he'll be either Ld 9 or 10 Stubborn, often with a re-roll, putting lots of damage on fast is not usually essential. Contrast with Treekin, for whom the drop from S5 to S4 was disastrous. No Stubborn, sod all static res, they run for the hills.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:45 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Going from the old Wood Elf book to the current one, I did find the Treeman's drop from S6 to S5 a pain. But given he'll be either Ld 9 or 10 Stubborn, often with a re-roll, putting lots of damage on fast is not usually essential. Contrast with Treekin, for whom the drop from S5 to S4 was disastrous. No Stubborn, sod all static res, they run for the hills.

That seems like a terrible design move!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:35 pm 
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Luna Guardian wrote:
That seems like a terrible design move!

Yeah, 45pts instead of 65pts per model looked great until we realised how bad critical combats (say vs MonCav) had suddenly become.

A Warsphinx in particular doesn't fear combat res so much vs Infantry because of the Thundercrush attack and the Breath Weapon is a very handy 2D6 S4 whichever round you need it. Can be vicious as shooting vs elves of course. Though the Treeman has a decent save (3+ Armour) which makes a big difference vs things like Poison. That's one thing the Sphinx T8 doesn't help much against.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:00 am 
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S is easily the most important stat for a pure combat unit. It increases the number of wounds dealt (in a more efficient manner then WS does with hits) and decreases armour saves. I'd rather be ws 1 s6 then ws 6 s1. The only reason PG are great with S4 is all the other bonuses they have. 4+ ward, ASF, I6 and LD9 gives them a lot of innate advantages and lets them bring the razor banner (which they really need). And S5 on SM already sometimes feels like too little. So S4 on the Treekin is just sad... Though it must be said that S5 for a big monster is also not very impressive. It's one of the big reasons why the frostheart is so much more popular then the flamespire phoenix (apart from all the other special rules).

Rod

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:09 pm 
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True.

It always makes me chuckle a bit when the Treeman wounds my Gor on a measly 3+. Even the Thunderstomp isn't so bad with an average of 2 wounds in that case.

Then I remember the Sphixes against Dwarfs... Luckily here the targets will be much better. Wood Elves and a lot of the VC guys only have T3. I also have the Necrosphinxe's S10, HKB attack that could come in handy. Just need to watch out for Ghouls and poisoned arrows. Like SpellArcher mentions - that 5+ save they've got is no protection (especially since the Asrai get universal AP).

Treekin might benefit from a 3x3 formation perhaps? For Steadfast? The miniatures my friend uses have great weapons so maybe we'll fit that in. So far they've been underwhelming, to be polite.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:32 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
that 5+ save they've got is no protection (especially since the Asrai get universal AP)

Wood Elves used to really struggle against armour. Not any more.

RE.Lee wrote:
Treekin might benefit from a 3x3 formation perhaps? For Steadfast? The miniatures my friend uses have great weapons so maybe we'll fit that in. So far they've been underwhelming,

It's an idea. About the same points as a unit of six (with Strength 5) used to be. More durable but clearly less killing power, so would take longer to chew through beatable enemy. Part of the problem remains Movement 5. Fun fact: if the unit had the near-ubiquitous Forest Stalker Special Rule it would fight in three ranks in a wood. Instead it just loses Steadfast like everybody else. Eternal Guard and Treemen don't care because they're Stubborn of course, as too are Dryads in this case.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:06 pm 
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Yeah the way forests now screw up Forest Spirits is ridiculous. M5 isn't bad, I think - the Beastmen move at a really nice pace I think and they're usually in a hurry!

Drafted the rules for the Battle of the Pyramids:

Standard deployment. 6 turns.

Goals:
Middle right of the field - a Cemetery. For each own turn starting with a friendly unit within the feature - 1VP (so 5VP max, both sides could get this)
Middle left of the field - a Chapel. Whoever occupies is at the end of the battle - 1VP.
Within the Chapel - a death cult priest(ess). Claimable by a non-flying unit. Dropped when defeated/panicked. Whoever has him/her at the end of the battle gets 1VP.
Additionally each general killed (there's 4) - 1 VP.

So each side could grab up to 9 VP. Obviously whoever gets most wins the game.

This should offer some nice opportunities for all involved. Everybody needs to pay attention to the cemetery, but there's no real need to dominate there. Could escalate quickly, though. The Chapel is important both early game (to grab the priest) and late game to claim it. Some interesting choices there - with our lack of infantry I could see ourselves skipping that one. Then there's the character hunting. The VC is going to be rock-hard probably, while the Wood Elf boss will be good at evading. The Necrosphinx might be key here but the Brets should be useful as well. This will put their general in harms way unfortunately. My Liche Priest will keep a low profile, but both VC and WE have solid character hunters in their ranks.

Opinions?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:10 am 
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The more I hear about the 8th edition and is armybooks, the more I wonder what GW was smoking...

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:48 am 
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Luna Guardian wrote:
The more I hear about the 8th edition and is armybooks, the more I wonder what GW was smoking...

Actually, the 8th ed books are fairly balanced against each other. Yes, there are definitely some books stronger then others. But it's no-where near the level of late 7th edition. There are some definite misses in the books (some pretty obvious, like the way forests screw up forest spirits). But that's pretty much a given in any WH book in any edition.

Interesting scenario. Lack of infantry will hurt you here. Both in claiming the chapel but also in the cemetery, where having ranked unit capable of grinding can make all the difference. On the other hand, being fast should help out with a few things.

Giving the Treekin GW is an interesting idea. S6 might be a bit too much. But ASL counters that a bit. And you could always adjust the points to balance them.

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:19 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Luna Guardian wrote:
The more I hear about the 8th edition and is armybooks, the more I wonder what GW was smoking...

Actually, the 8th ed books are fairly balanced against each other. Yes, there are definitely some books stronger then others. But it's no-where near the level of late 7th edition. There are some definite misses in the books (some pretty obvious, like the way forests screw up forest spirits). But that's pretty much a given in any WH book in any edition.

That's kind of what I mean, late 7th was a clusterhump due to uncontrolled powercreep, but the problems in 8th are so glaringly obvious singular issues that they could have been fixed with very little effort. Like Pure of Heart and I@C in our 6th edition book.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:34 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
M5 isn't bad, I think - the Beastmen move at a really nice pace I think and they're usually in a hurry!

It probably depends what you're facing RE. Against Infantry armies it's ample. Cavalry and Flyers though tend to leave it plodding a bit. Also, your Beastmen are substantial Steadfast blocks with characters in, so can afford to be more aggressive than Treekin.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Giving the Treekin GW is an interesting idea. S6 might be a bit too much. But ASL counters that a bit. And you could always adjust the points to balance them.

I agree Rod, well worth trying out.

Luna Guardian wrote:
That's kind of what I mean, late 7th was a clusterhump due to uncontrolled powercreep, but the problems in 8th are so glaringly obvious singular issues that they could have been fixed with very little effort. Like Pure of Heart and I@C in our 6th edition book.

GW did less outside playtesting for 8th than for previous editions Luna. Sometimes too, these things don't really show up until hundreds of games have been played in different metas. The Treekin thing was because Dryads and Treemen also got a Strength cut. Presumably GW felt those would have been too strong otherwise. Also, the Wood Elf book was the last one and maybe focus was already on the End Times books by that point. GW stopped issuing Army Book FAQ's over a year before that, which implies a lack of attention to detail. All things considered though, the ruleset hangs together surprisingly well.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:15 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
GW did less outside playtesting for 8th than for previous editions Luna. Sometimes too, these things don't really show up until hundreds of games have been played in different metas. The Treekin thing was because Dryads and Treemen also got a Strength cut. Presumably GW felt those would have been too strong otherwise. Also, the Wood Elf book was the last one and maybe focus was already on the End Times books by that point. GW stopped issuing Army Book FAQ's over a year before that, which implies a lack of attention to detail. All things considered though, the ruleset hangs together surprisingly well.

I find it hard to believe they could do any less :P . Fair enough though I suppose, but some things should just be common sense (Forest stalker for Treekin for example)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:02 pm 
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Luna Guardian wrote:
some things should just be common sense (Forest stalker for Treekin for example)

The reason this is elves-only is because it effectively gives these both the High Elf Martial Prowess and Dark Elf Murderous Prowess but only inside woods. The last part, Forest Strider, is a decent army-wide ability for Wood Elves in general but not especially useful for Infantry or Monstrous Infantry because these rarely take Dangerous Terrain tests in woods anyway.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:13 pm 
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Same with our White Lions - it just seems like an echo from the past.

While I lack ranked infantry I think one (or two, if takes that) Sphinxes can bog down anything the enemy throws at my at the Cemetery, bagging me those points.

As for the Chapel - I'm thinking of bombarding it with TK arrows, magic and trebuchet shots, then moving in with some archers.

In both cases not having infantry is a handicap, but one I can work around (I think).

As for 8th edition in general. The consensus was that external balance was ok, while internal - so-so. There's some seemingly unusable units in most army books - my explanation is that they work in very specific meta's. Playing with scenarios and unusual victory conditions might really change our opinions on what's strong and what's not.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:33 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
As for 8th edition in general. The consensus was that external balance was ok, while internal - so-so. There's some seemingly unusable units in most army books

I agree RE. Wood Elves for example used to really struggle, especially against armour. The 2014 book fixed this but competitive armies tend to be mostly archers and Fast Cavalry. You can use other units and still win games (I did for over a year and scored middling tournament results) but you take a performance hit. For several books, running an Infantry block-based army can be a competitive handicap.

RE.Lee wrote:
Playing with scenarios and unusual victory conditions might really change our opinions on what's strong and what's not.

Fair point, it depends on specifics of course. For example Fortitude-based can simply encourage players to build a Deathstar and stick their General and BSB inside. Your custom scenarios are more promising here I think.

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