Star Wars (Spoilers)

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Star Wars (Spoilers)

#1 Post by SpellArcher »

So I have to ask, what did we all think?

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Some spoilers.

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Re: Star Wars

#2 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

If you were looking for a solid story line where everything made sense then I'm sure you were disappointed. But as simply a fun movie I rather enjoyed it.
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Re: Star Wars

#3 Post by Domine Nox »

I felt visually it was a very nice movie, beyond the visuals though... I was left feeling very meh. I feel they tried too hard to get the sensation of New Hope and as such made practically a carbon copy with a far less interesting character.
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Re: Star Wars

#4 Post by Giladis »

I came into the theater with pretty low expectations, came out thinking "well at least the soundtracks was ok" :|
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Re: Star Wars

#5 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

We've all gotten old haha
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Re: Star Wars

#6 Post by SpellArcher »

Shannar, Sealord wrote:We've all gotten old haha
For me it was like 38 years never happened. Like being a spellbound 8-year old in 1977 again.
Giladis wrote:well at least the soundtracks was ok
My Dad had a casette tape of the music from the first films. I literally wore it out. When Leia's theme started up in Force Awakens it freaked me out.
Shannar, Sealord wrote:But as simply a fun movie I rather enjoyed it.
With something like Star Trek, they try to justify the tech, suggest it's theoretically possible somehow. Star Wars is more of a 'flying pig' kind of a thing to me. It's about emotion, sweeping storylines, classic set-pieces. It has to carry you away.
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Re: Star Wars

#7 Post by John Rainbow »

I liked it. I thought it was pretty much 'A New Hope' v2 but I admit it played well to the nostalgia factor for me. It was enjoyable.
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Re: Star Wars

#8 Post by theviking »

Giladis wrote:I came into the theater with pretty low expectations, came out thinking "well at least the soundtracks was ok" :|
This. In a vacuum the movie was your typical blockbuster action flick with acceptable acting and gratuitous 'splosions, but...

<rant>
Being a star wars nerd I don't like what Disney has done to the Star Wars franchise since they took over. The galaxy was doing just fine, why did they feel the need to reboot the whole thing? There was plenty of room to make dozens of movies that would have meshed seamlessly with the expanded universe, but no, let's can all that and start over from 1983. What is this, back to the future? I was further disenchanted by all the recycled content in the movie.

An orphan being monopolized by a shady dealer on a desert planet leaves town on a dilapidated freighter, unintentionally falls in with the rebels, inherits a lightsaber, becomes a jedi, destroys the empire's super weapon after disabling the ground based thingy preventing a successful attack, and generally saves the galaxy (except the planet the super weapon already blew up, rough luck there). Along the way we encounter a hot shot pilot with an adorable astromech sidekick, a small, eccentric, ancient force sensitive alien spewing words of wisdon, and a sith with a mask who answers to a sith lord with a penchant for over sized holograms. Which movie am I talking about? Oh and BTW said sith in a mask happens to be the son of Han and Leia (did he just call him Ben? rolls eyes) gone dark and taking over the galaxy. I've seen, read, or played through all of these plot lines.
</rant>

I have no hopes for the main story going forwards, but maybe the spin-off movies will have some merit.

TL:DR - Decent movie, bad star wars.
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Re: Star Wars

#9 Post by SpellArcher »

theviking wrote:expanded universe
Fair point, this is a big deal.

From the point of view of guys like me who were never interested in the Expanded Universe, no problem. But it is very rough on those who were.
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Re: Star Wars

#10 Post by Giladis »

I think we guys aren't the target audience for this movie apart from the over the top references to the original trilogy. This movie is for kids and younger teenagers who haven't seen the original Star Wars. It aims to create a new following while milking the old fans.

I went to watch the movie with my sister because watching the prequels was kind of our thing back then. I was the big brother taking his little sister to the theater so it had a special meaning to both of us. Prequels in my opinion weren't as bad as many critics say. After we watched the movie both of us felt blank, everything was so overwhelmingly underwhelming (if you understand what I am trying to say), that we just exchanged a few sentences before parting our own individual ways.

On my walk home I felt empty, the suspension of disbelief was broken so many times during the film it was hard to remain serious. For me the story was a missed opportunity, characters made less sense as the film went on, and the acting...

I think most responsible for the blame are the script writer and the director. I sincerely hope that someone half decent writes the Episode VIII and that the new director will try to make a good movie and not just another SF blockbuster.
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Re: Star Wars

#11 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

SpellArcher wrote:
theviking wrote:expanded universe
Fair point, this is a big deal.

From the point of view of guys like me who were never interested in the Expanded Universe, no problem. But it is very rough on those who were.
Honestly I actively disliked the expanded universe. Some of it was pretty good, but much of it was as awful as GW stuff. And the level of overall editorial control was about as consistent. In order to move forward with any freedom or ability to even pretend to try to be consistent they had to scrap it.
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Re: Star Wars

#12 Post by SpellArcher »

Giladis wrote:Prequels in my opinion weren't as bad as many critics say.
I enjoyed Phantom Menace but it didn't blow me away. Sadly never got to see the other two.
Giladis wrote:On my walk home I felt empty, the suspension of disbelief was broken so many times during the film it was hard to remain serious. For me the story was a missed opportunity, characters made less sense as the film went on, and the acting...
Maybe this depends on how analytical the watcher is. I remember loving Braveheart for example, while a friend of mine found it ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, I've hated a lot of films but Force Awakens wasn't one.
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Re: Star Wars

#13 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

SpellArcher wrote:
Giladis wrote:Prequels in my opinion weren't as bad as many critics say.
I enjoyed Phantom Menace but it didn't blow me away. Sadly never got to see the other two.
They had some acting issues for sure. But they weren't at bad as most of us pretend, they simply didn't live up to the expectations that we had.
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Re: Star Wars

#14 Post by Domine Nox »

SPOILERS!! You are warned!!!

My issue with the Force Awakens wasn't the script or acting (those were issues with the Prequels, and if you defend the script and acting compare Liam Neisson(?) in Phantom Menace to everything else he's done), it was the characters themselves. While FA tried to capture the essence of New Hope, it failed horribly in my eyes. Let's compare main characters in each movie (since basic details are identical [orphan, desert planet, finds droids, goes to rebel alliance, saves the day and has the force]). Luke fails, a LOT. His Unlce and Aunt die, he gets his ass kicked by sand people, he nearly gets killed in a bar, he has a training droid get the best of him, nearly gets crushed in a trash compactor, he watches his mentor/friend die in front of him, and nearly gets killed by Vader while saving the day. Rey on the other hand beats up those who attack her, flies a spaceship she's never flown before (expertly too), fixes said spaceship, overpowers a sith with zero training (please see the reference of Luke in Empire Strikes Back. He got the crap kicked out of him by Vader, and he was trained. Rey didn't even know what the force was and turned it around on Kylo Ren AND performed force abilities on characters), escapes from her capture without anyone saving her, helps save the day, out forcepulls a sith, and defeats a sith in a lightsaber duel.

All of that made it really hard to ever care about Rey, because by 40mins into the movie when things looked bad I'd just go "Well Rey's going to handle this." The closest thing to 'loss' she suffers in the entire movie is Han dying, and while that is sad and all... she's known the guy for all of maybe 24hrs, not really a heart wrenching moment, especially since his 'fatherliness' that they reference is him going "Hm, yeah" and giving half-hearted nods of approval.
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Re: Star Wars

#15 Post by John Rainbow »

@Domine Nox: doesn't this sort of depend on Ren's level of training? He seems like a bit of a noob when it comes to Sith stuff. He just has a lot of rage and daddy issues it seems. Also at the end of the movie Snoke says he needs to complete Kylo's training.
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Re: Star Wars

#16 Post by Domine Nox »

@John Rainbow, possibly? But as the people on the net who have been defending Kylo Ren have pointed out, he is able to use the force well enough to literally rip thoughts out of people's heads (if Vader could have done that, he would have found the base in New Hope with no trouble), and can stop blaster shots in mid air. So even if his training isn't complete, comparing him to other Jedi/Sith, he seems to be no slouch. Darth Maul couldn't even stop a lightsaber summoning backflip, but was able to beat up and fight 2 Jedi to a standstill and kill a master. Kylo... beat up a console? Killed a defenseless Han Solo? And got one upped on force usage, and lightsaber duelling by a novice (granted a novice with plot armor on par with Marneus Calgar). This would be like (to stick with Phantom Menace) Darth Maul killing Quigon, to then have Anakin go "I got this," and kill him.
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Re: Star Wars

#17 Post by John Rainbow »

True. Maybe if he hadn't been shot by Chewie? Maybe the wound was slowing him down.
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Re: Star Wars

#18 Post by Galharen »

Han Solo - he saved that movie :)
Well, I like in particular the space fights and all the landscape views, such as ISD wreck etc.
Biggest disappointment - Kylo Ren, simply WTF? :| :roll: I can't stand his child face and mimic, he shouldn't remove his helmet at all, 'cause he lost his balls with it for sure.
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Re: Star Wars

#19 Post by SpellArcher »

I was gobsmacked when Han Solo bit it, well done for that in a way.

I agree there's an issue with Rey. She has a scavenger background (so should know about parts), could easily pilot on-planet craft and living alone should be able to handle herself in a fight (similarly Finn you'd expect to have weapons training). She almost wrecks the Falcon at first, gets carried helpless onto Ren's ship etc.. The issue for me is how quickly she masters all these skills. But this is a fantasy film, not pure sci-fi, it's larger than life and requires a bit of incredulity for me. The planet killer is clearly impossible technically but that's the kind of film this is. If we analyse it too much it breaks down. Watch it like a kid and it works, for me.
John Rainbow wrote:Maybe if he hadn't been shot by Chewie? Maybe the wound was slowing him down.
This, they made a big play of it. Plus he had to fight twice. Ren is interesting, almost tender at times, which is disturbing in a way. We know what Vader is going to do, the helmet almost never comes off, he stomps around and kicks ass. So does Ren but not so convincingly. Whether we root for a mass-murderer to come back to the Light is another matter.
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Re: Star Wars

#20 Post by John Rainbow »

SpellArcher wrote:This, they made a big play of it. Plus he had to fight twice. Ren is interesting, almost tender at times, which is disturbing in a way. We know what Vader is going to do, the helmet almost never comes off, he stomps around and kicks ass. So does Ren but not so convincingly. Whether we root for a mass-murderer to come back to the Light is another matter.
Vader also murdered a bunch of people - even the younglings! :lol:
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Re: Star Wars (Spoilers)

#21 Post by Galharen »

That is why Vader is the most remembered and recognizable character from Star Wars univers.
I don't think Ren will take his place, but he seems to be willing to.
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Re: Star Wars (Spoilers)

#22 Post by Orchaldor »

For what it's worth, I enjoyed Force Awakens. Interestingly, I enjoyed it more the second time I saw it (my wife was away when it came out, so I "forced" myself to go again once she came home :wink: ).

As has been said earlier, this is A New Hope for a new generation of fans. In many ways, it is also like the 7th Star Trek (Generations): it is the old heroes handing on the baton to the key players for the next phase of the franchise.

Finally, imagine (if you will) what could have happened if Disney had done a GW: "Oh, that world you knew and loved? It's just fallen down a Death Star-sized plot hole, and we're not going to sell the original films any more. In fact, we're going to pretend they never really existed or that anyone liked them. We're also ditching the Star Wars name, welcome to the Age of Sithmar"!!!! :twisted:
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Re: Star Wars (Spoilers)

#23 Post by Domine Nox »

Why are those the 2 options though? Why couldn't they have done... what MOST movies (and books) do, where the hero is challenged and suffers on their journey to then emerge a greater and stronger person. And the villain is actually a threat, so that we feel genuine fear for the good guys about what happens if he gets them.

Kylo Ren had a "I'm a bad guy" label on him, but he had no menace. He had some creep factor, but he wasn't villainous. Everytime he had a rage enduced outburst it took away from him as villain. Can you imagine the first 3 movies if instead of force choking people Vader had thrown a tantrum? We would not have taken him seriously. Darth Maul even had more sinister to him because of his limited screen time, and being awesome in those times he was on screen (except for his death, cause deus ex machina). Heck I would say Captain Phasma was a better villain than Kylo Ren, and they didn't let her do much of anything.

The only character that suffers and grows through the movie is Finn. He undergoes a complete personal change, develops a backbone, finds something to fight for, etc. But he's not the main character. If Rey had not been in the film, and it had focused on Finn, I think it might have even been a better movie. Because honestly with Rey I have NEVER had so little concern for a character before, because there was a 100% certainty that she was going to be all right, and that it had nothing to do with the other characters. I bet if you wrote Finn and Han and Chewie out of the script, she still would have found her way to the Rebels, and defeated Kylo Ren. Since her ONLY growth and change from the start of the movie to the end was "Oh, the force is real and I can use it." And that took her... 30-40mins to comprehend and master. Luke took an entire movie, he discovered its existence near the beginning, and didn't use it correctly until the very end and even THAT took a ghost going "Come on man, use it, trust in it!" Anakin had the force in him and knew about Jedi, knew that he'd been told he could be a jedi... still never used the force cause he hadn't been trained.

I mean heck, I know that if somebody told me magic was real for the first time today, and my parents had been wizards, that I totally would be casting fiery convocation without issue by tomorrow.
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Re: Star Wars (Spoilers)

#24 Post by Nicene »

Maybe the next movie will focus on Finn?
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Re: Star Wars (Spoilers)

#25 Post by SpellArcher »

Domine Nox wrote:Kylo Ren had a "I'm a bad guy" label on him, but he had no menace. He had some creep factor, but he wasn't villainous. Everytime he had a rage enduced outburst it took away from him as villain. Can you imagine the first 3 movies if instead of force choking people Vader had thrown a tantrum? We would not have taken him seriously. Darth Maul even had more sinister to him because of his limited screen time, and being awesome in those times he was on screen (except for his death, cause deus ex machina). Heck I would say Captain Phasma was a better villain than Kylo Ren, and they didn't let her do much of anything.
I think Ren's just a different kind of villain. Yes there's definitely some 'angry teenager with lethal weapons' going on, he seemed so young to me. 'Kill them all." at the start of the film was pretty brutal. Plus he offs his own damn father, which I personally didn't see coming at all. In The Empire Strikes Back I felt there was a chance Vader would kill Luke but I didn't really think it would happen and of course it didn't. In a way I don't like it. I feel the plotline wants us to see Ren eventually redeemed (like Vader). But all the way along he's fully aware and making murderous choices. Poor old Leia.
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Re: Star Wars (Spoilers)

#26 Post by John Rainbow »

JJ Abrams has always said he wants it to be about a villain's journey too.
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Re: Star Wars (Spoilers)

#27 Post by Galharen »

Villain is just a point of view, dark side was always more interesting to me :) Jedi are 1-dimensional, Anakin prooved to be two-faced at least :lol:
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Re: Star Wars (Spoilers)

#28 Post by Heraldine »

I did not enjoy the new episode at all :(
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Re: Star Wars (Spoilers)

#29 Post by Prince of Spires »

I went and watched it yesterday. It was amusing.

Was it the best film ever? No, definitely not. The characters were a bit thin, with very little development going on. The characters were a bit cliché and predictable in their actions. The plot itself was thin, and very much a rehash of a new hope, but then with less depth to it. Which just made it more predictable. And the force itself went from very much a precision tool in the original films to a blunt club used to smash stuff.

Still, I enjoyed it. As said, it made for an amusing sunday afternoon. Perhaps because my hopes weren't too high. But it did share the same fairytale aspects of the original films. The scenery was great, and the music... And, which I considered a bonus, no Jarjar binks. ;)

As for Ren, and the fight at the end. My feeling was that Ren by no means is a fully trained jedi (or sith or whatever they call the bad-guys these days). It's more a case that in a universe where no-one wields the force, someone with only the barest of control can seem very powerful. But he's nowhere close to Vader or Joda. I would more place him on a level with Luke at the end of a new hope. Some mind tricks, some swinging with a sword, but no finesse.

Rey was a tough one. It feels like they hoped to give her some character development by simply having her repeat 'I have to go back to my planet' every few sentences. Didn't work for me. And the manipulation of the guard when she was imprisoned was too easy. But the fight at the end was ok. Ren was indeed hurt. And she pulled a bit a similar stunt to Luke at the end of a new hope. Trust in the force and follow its lead. That was actually an Ok part for me.

For me, the conclusion is: ok movie. If it would have been the first star wars movie, then it wouldn't have gotten as big as it did over the years. But that was my feeling for parts 1-3 as well. As part of the ongoing sage, not bad and enjoyable. Not highly rewatchable. But good enough.

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Re: Star Wars (Spoilers)

#30 Post by Teledor »

Overall I thought the movie was good. It achieved what I thought it needed to achieve - which was make me forget Episodes 1-3 happened and start us on a new journey with new characters. It was flawed, not going to lie, but it felt like Star Wars. That was something I cannot say for the Episodes 1-3.

Some of the criticism is certainly fair, but I feel like if we took the critical eyes all of us are applying to TFA to Episodes 4-6, then we could probably bring up much the same criticism. TFA had some major hurdles to get over, mainly nostalgia, in the movie.

Is Kylo Ren the perfect villain? No. He's flawed, but he also has two more movies to reach that point. Are there plot holes galore in Rey's backstory? Yup. Scavenger with no discernible training, manages to fly the Falcon through a decrepit shell of a Star Destroyer; manages the Jedi mind trick with little training; handles a pretty mean light saber... Seems all a bit much. Sort of..

Remember that Episode IV: A New Hope was supposed to be an encapsulated story. Sequels were not planned as a part of its release. That's part of the reason why Vader is a complete bad ass traditional villain in A New Hope. He didn't have time to be developed and let your antagonism grow against him. That's what the film required to be complete because who the F knew more movies would happen. Hell, half the reason why Lucas became a Billionaire was because the Studio let him keep the merchandising rights since they though A New Hope would probably bomb. Whoops..

Also, Luke's arc in the first movie isn't much more plausible than Rey's. Farm boy with some mechanical training and rudimentary atmospheric flight training manages to fly an X-wing in space combat AND blow up the Death Star when other more experienced pilots failed. Not to mention in Empire he manages to use the Force to snag his light saber in the cave on Hoth with no additional training except for self training, maybe?

But for all of those flaws, I still love the original trilogy. Haven't seen it in a while because I refuse to watch the S(hitty)pecial Editions. At least Disney will hopefully right that wrong and re-release the theatrical versions on Blue Ray since there's a huge demand for it. One time I won't fault Disney for being greedy bastards.

Anyways, minor tangent there. Basically it will be difficult to judge TFA without Episode 8. If Episode 8 blows it, then, TFA and the new trilogy won't be much better than the god awful Prequels.
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