Greek Warfare Books

[Elithmar]

Could anyone recommend me any good books on Greek Warfare (I'm looking at around the time of Alexander and the Romans, so Hoplite warfare)? Preferably ones with battles and diagrams for the battles.

[Rabidnid]

By the time of alexander hoplites were becoming a rarity, with most armies having moved over to pikes.

Some titles for you:

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/S ... 1846032585 Probably the best single book if you want hoplites, the siege of syracuse was a huge event for the greeks, and includes all aspects of classical greek warfare.

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/P ... 1849085540 Greeks verses the Persians 479 BC

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/A ... 1849084802 alexander


Any library should have a load of stuff and Wiki with be full of it as well. I say this because any serious academic books on Greek warfare will make GW look cheap by comparison.

[Elithmar]

Thank you for those. Though hoplites were still used in Greece when Philip II made his reforms in Macedon, and they only adopted the pike later. I mainly just meant phalanx warfare. Thank you very much anyway.

I'll raid the local and school libraries too, for books on Greek warfare and primary sources. I'd like to read some Arrian on Alexander's campaigns.

[Rabidnid]

Thank you for those. Though hoplites were still used in Greece when Philip II made his reforms in Macedon, and they only adopted the pike later. I mainly just meant phalanx warfare. Thank you very much anyway.

I'll raid the local and school libraries too, for books on Greek warfare and primary sources. I'd like to read some Arrian on Alexander's campaigns.

I remember Peter Green being quite readable. Arrian is a fun read, but of dubious accuracy. Philip and Olympias are far more interesting characters, the rise of Macedon is pretty amazing as well.

[Nemo]

I remember Peter Green being quite readable. Arrian is a fun read, but of dubious accuracy. Philip and Olympias are far more interesting characters, the rise of Macedon is pretty amazing as well.

All of the "primary" sources we have are of dubious accuracy. Complete pain trying to work out what actually happened most of the time! I agree with you on Philip and Olympias/the rise of Macedon, how Philip turned around an irrelevant, failing state on the verge of annihilation and planned to invade Persia, the super-power of its day, is quite something. I really was not a fan of Green - he is particularly light on his analysis of Alexander's battles, which it sounds like the OP is after most - and some of his details/conclusions have to be called into question as they can be quite unsupported, or even directly contradicted in places.

++

I can only make a flying visit right now, I'm doing a dissertation on Alexander so I should be able to help.

In general, you want to look at:

Arrian - Anabasis (Campaigns)
Diodorus Siculus - Bibliotheca Historica (Historical Library)
Plutarch - Lives - Alexander
Quintus Curtius Rufus - The History of Alexander

They are all written a good few hundred years after the death of Alexander, and claim to be based on the writings of those who were there. These original accounts are lost, leaving us with the Roman interpretation of Alexander, so the accuracy always has to be called into question.

As for secondary sources, "The Generalship of Alexander the Great" by J.F.C. Fuller is a good one. Unfortunately there are hundreds (thousands!) of books on Alexander and his military strategies, so I hope you don't mind if I don't go through too many! Fuller is a military man so his assessments of Alexander, from a military standpoint at least, are probably some of the most reasonable out there despite it being an older book.

Hope that helps!

[Eldacar]

As for secondary sources, "The Generalship of Alexander the Great" by J.F.C. Fuller is a good one. Unfortunately there are hundreds (thousands!) of books on Alexander and his military strategies, so I hope you don't mind if I don't go through too many!

Fuller's work is a good starting point. You can also try looking at books by Robert Milns (Alexander the Great is available on Amazon). It's not solely military, but may prove of interest to you.

[Rabidnid]

I remember Peter Green being quite readable. Arrian is a fun read, but of dubious accuracy. Philip and Olympias are far more interesting characters, the rise of Macedon is pretty amazing as well.

All of the "primary" sources we have are of dubious accuracy. Complete pain trying to work out what actually happened most of the time! I agree with you on Philip and Olympias/the rise of Macedon, how Philip turned around an irrelevant, failing state on the verge of annihilation and planned to invade Persia, the super-power of its day, is quite something. I really was not a fan of Green - he is particularly light on his analysis of Alexander's battles, which it sounds like the OP is after most - and some of his details/conclusions have to be called into question as they can be quite unsupported, or even directly contradicted in places.

Green covers his flaws in the intro to the more recent copies of his works.

As for greek warfare, nobody has a clue for the most part what actually happened, compared to what is reported. generally the hoplites formed two opposing lines and and went at it. The opposing commanders tried to ensure both lines were the same length as being wrapped around was pretty fatal. In combat their was a tendency for the opposing lines to creep to the right as each hoplite tried to make use of the left side of his right hand neighbour's shield.

Actual combat consisted of people thrusting underhanded for their opponent's hand and groin. The more butch combatants would fight overhand thrusting for an opponents face and neck, but in the process exposing their own right shoulder to retaliation.

The only innovation in hoplite combat comes from Epaminondas at the battle of Leuctra when he loads the left flank 50 deep and refuses the right flank. The actual mechanisim is unknown, but the deep formation is instrumental on defeating the Spartan right and killing most of its commanders.

From Wiki

Epaminondas (Greek: Ἐπαμεινώνδας; ca. 418 BC – 362 BC), or Epameinondas, was a Theban general and statesman of the 4th century BC who transformed the Ancient Greek city-state of Thebes, leading it out of Spartan subjugation into a preeminent position in Greek politics. In the process he broke Spartan military power with his victory at Leuctra

The true innovation and the beginning of the evolution of the hoplite into pikemen occurs with Iphicrates

Again from the wiki

His "Iphicratean reforms" consisted of increasing the length of their spears and swords, substituting linen cuirasses in place of heavier bronze armor, and introducing new footwear (later called iphicratids) that were easier to don and remove than previous models. In addition, he replaced the heavy hoplon/aspis with a lighter pelte that could be strapped to the forearm, freeing the left hand to help hold the lengthened spears.

[Elithmar]

I've read The Generalship of Alexander the Great, actually. Great book. This is the sort of thing I'm looking for about the Greeks. (May I stress that I'm looking for books about Greek warfare, not Macedonian)

I know a little about the battle of Leuctra. Seems quite interesting. All I know about it was learnt from Time Commanders though.

[Andrew_uk]

Can I just say btw, I've never met a 13 year old who is as well read, mature, knowledgable or polite as Elithmar... just a general observation... Are you wanting to study the history of warfare or something one day when you get to university?

[Elithmar]

Can I just say btw, I've never met a 13 year old who is as well read, mature, knowledgable or polite as Elithmar... just a general observation... Are you wanting to study the history of warfare or something one day when you get to university?

Thank you so much! Really kind of you to say that. Really made my day.

Yes, I would like to study Ancient Warfare, or Ancient History, focussing on the warfare.

[Rabidnid]

I've read The Generalship of Alexander the Great, actually. Great book. This is the sort of thing I'm looking for about the Greeks. (May I stress that I'm looking for books about Greek warfare, not Macedonian)

I know a little about the battle of Leuctra. Seems quite interesting. All I know about it was learnt from Time Commanders though.

Its starts a long way back them. The hoplite is the history of greek democracy for its beginnings in the 7th century BC though to the final suppression by Macedon. I would just stick to ospreys to start with and then move on the books in their bibilographys. Libraries are your friends. Xenophon's Anabasis and Thucydides' history of the peloponnesian war are both excellent books.

[Elithmar]

I know it's been a while but I'll post it here now: well, I went to the public library and they had NOTHING. Just the Odyssey and Aeneid etc. BUT I did get a copy of Xenophon's Anabasis from Penguin. Haven't started on it yet though - I'm going to finish Dracula first.

[Rabidnid]

I know it's been a while but I'll post it here now: well, I went to the public library and they had NOTHING. Just the Odyssey and Aeneid etc. BUT I did get a copy of Xenophon's Anabasis from Penguin. Haven't started on it yet though - I'm going to finish Dracula first.

You need university libraries then. You can read the book there, and perhaps get a library card or photocopy the bits you want.

[Elithmar]

Well, when I go to uni, let's hope there's a good library!

[Nemo]

Well, when I go to uni, let's hope there's a good library!

Well, if you're going to an institution that offers Classics you'll be as happy as Larry. My uni's library (Birmingham) has tons of material on Greek warfare.

As it happens, you don't have to be a university student to use most university libraries - if you can get to a uni easily have a chat with the staff, you can often get "outside membership" as it were.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Eli!

Would you be interested in books about Alexander's Successors too? If yes I might have some suggestion, let me know!

Cheers!

[Prince of Spires]

I at least would be interested. A good book is always welcome. So post away (unless the OP objects to it of course)

Thanks

Rod

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

No problem, Rod! I have a feeling Eli would not mind

1. The Wars of Alexander's Successors 323-281BC - Volume II - Battles and Tactics, Bob Bennett and Mike Roberts

This is a good book and provides nice overview of major battles of that period. The diagrams are simple but give good description anyway. Definitely good to start from.

2. Great Battles of the Hellenistic World Joseph Pietrykowski

I bought this book mainly for Successors battles but they are not the only ones described in that book. I think it might even be a better one for Eli as he seems to look for battles of other great powers in that period. The descriptions are even better than in the first book. Again, relatively short but after that book I got a lot of respect for some generals which had to fight for their survival against others who were as well versed in the art of war as any who learned from Alexander could be.

I might dig out some other titles too but this is for now.

Cheers!

[Elithmar]

Hi Eli!

Would you be interested in books about Alexander's Successors too? If yes I might have some suggestion, let me know!

Cheers!

Sure, I'd love to hear them! Anyway, I don't have much choice in the matter as you've posted already!

No problem, Rod! I have a feeling Eli would not mind

You know me too well.



Alexander's successors? Sounds good. I don't know much about them, except Ptolemy got Egypt (hence the Ptolemaic dynasty ) and one created the Seleucid Empire (not too sure on that one). I'd love to know more about them.

Could you expand on the factions mentioned in the second book? Sounds interesting...

.............

In other news, I just finished the Persian Expedition on the bus today. Great book! I've gained a lot of respect for Xenophon, he was an excellent speaker. It's one thing to write a speech and say it, but so much harder to think of it on the spot. I suppose when he was writing he could make them better, but they still must have been quite good.

I was thinking about reading the Art of War actually. Anyone read it and could say a little bit about it?

Thanks.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

I knew I had it somewhere Here is a link to another forum with huge amount of books you might find interesting:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=286295

As to the Battles of the Hellenistic World here is a list of battles:

Philip and Alexander - 5 battles; - Chaeronea, Granicus, Issos, Gaugamela and Hydaspes
Successors - 4 battles; - Paraitacene, Gabiene, Gaza, Ipsos (battle of kings )
Pyrrhos of Epeiros - 3 battles; - Heraclea, Asculum, Beneventum
Later Battles - 2; Raphia, Selasia
The Roman Conquest - 3 battles, Cynoscephalae, Magnesia, Pydna

It seems that the author might not be that hystorically correct but it is a great read and overview of these battles. Very interesting too.

Have fun and let me know if you need some more information or ... maybe we should come back to some discussion about Ancient Battles

Art of War is good read too. I would recommend something with comments of the translator, can be interesting read as well.

Cheers!

[Elithmar]

Thanks for the link.

Out of those battles, I've only read about the Granicus, Issus, Arbela, the Hydaspes and Magnesia, so it would be quite good for me I think. I think I've heard of a few others though.

... maybe we should come back to some discussion about Ancient Battles

I'm sorry but I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Care to clarify?

Thanks.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

There was a topic about inspiration coming from Ancient Warfare for gamers and how they try to build their army list.

[Elithmar]

Swordmaster, is The Wars of Alexander's Successors 323-281BC - Volume I any good?

[VictorK]

I will second the recommendation for Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War. It's free!

Sure, tactics and strategy and such are fun...but if you really want to build a believable world for your army, and flesh it out, you have to understand why battles are fought. It's always worth keeping Clausewitz's tired old maxim in the back of your mind: war is politics by another means. Thucydides is pretty much the father of the study of how politics works between states. You probably shouldn't read the whole thing, but there are parts that are really worth chewing over.

[Elithmar]

Free is good.

Which parts would you recommend?