Victory in Europe

[The Red Elf]

At 2301 CET (1801 EDT/0001 BST/0201 MSD) on the night of May 8/9 1945, the German Instrument of Surrender came into effect. The German armed forces were ordered by their supreme command to lay down their arms; some hard-core units refused to do so, out of fear of retribution or loyalty to their deceased Fuhrer, and in several pockets fighting continued for days afterwards. For the vast majority, however, the violence and oppression at the hands of German fascism, which for years had held hostage the continent of Europe and territories beyond and consumed the lives of over 40 million people, was over. The United Nations, forged from disparate states and peoples in their crusade for civilisation, found liberated Europe shattered by Nazism's occupation and shocked by its unparalleled crimes against humanity.

On May 8/9, we record the victory over Nazi Germany, to recall the moral and physical courage of those who stood up to and defeated it and remember its victims for whom liberation came too late. May they never be forgotten.

[Uther Di Asturien]

How did that quote go, "Why do the people who most need to remember are the ones that most often forget ?" ?
Let us hope this particular event in history is never forgotten indeed.

[Elaithnir]

Ironically, it won't. Not by me at least. My parents thought it a good plan to make this my birthday.
In all seriousness though, thank God it ended when it did. It should never have happened.

[Musashi]

Happy birthday; is this planned parenthood?

[Elaithnir]

Random chance I think...but it is kind of cool. An honour, sort of.

[MadassAlex]

I think it only pertinent to remember that the Western Allies, especially the USA, did much to destabilise matters shortly after WWII, especially regarding the placement of the Jews.

We may have been the "good guys", but not necessarily by much.

[Prince Eldarion]

Soldiers of both sides of the Front should never be forgotten.

[Uther Di Asturien]

I think it only pertinent to remember that the Western Allies, especially the USA, did much to destabilise matters shortly after WWII, especially regarding the placement of the Jews.

We may have been the "good guys", but not necessarily by much.

I fail to see how this is relevant. If I understood correctly this topic is only to remind people of the date. There have been many other topics on the subject you are referring to, and the way in which you put it seems only sligthly short of trolling. If someone else picks up on the discussion, you should probably create another topic.

Sorry if I seemed harsh, but if I got one penny for every topic that started like this and ended up locked then I would have been crushed to death by pennies long ago.

[Giladis]

In Croatia end of war is celebrated on 14th or 15th I am not sure, 8th is celebrated as Liberation of Zagreb, unfortunately not all celebrate it, there is still quite a sizable group that considers that day as a day of mourning.

[Prince_Asuryan]

In Croatia end of war is celebrated on 14th or 15th I am not sure, 8th is celebrated as Liberation of Zagreb, unfortunately not all celebrate it, there is still quite a sizable group that considers that day as a day of mourning.

I think it can, in a way, be the same thing. You mourn those that died, but celebrate the cause they fought and died for, knowing it was not in vain.

That's how remembrance day works over here in the UK for me.

RIP and thanks, all those who took part in this mighty endeavor.

[Giladis]

I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about the people that "lost" the war and their families.

[MadassAlex]

I fail to see how this is relevant. If I understood correctly this topic is only to remind people of the date. There have been many other topics on the subject you are referring to, and the way in which you put it seems only sligthly short of trolling. If someone else picks up on the discussion, you should probably create another topic.

Sorry if I seemed harsh, but if I got one penny for every topic that started like this and ended up locked then I would have been crushed to death by pennies long ago.

Then remember not to celebrate victory. That's a feudal idea that's best forgotten.

Instead, lament the loss of life and the destabilisation inherent in any war.

[VictorK]

Giladis, your native american furry avatar is detracting from the sanctity of the annual VE-Day thread.

[Giladis]

Giladis, your native american furry avatar is detracting from the sanctity of the annual VE-Day thread.

Sorry I don't understand. I got that avatar a few days ago after reading Twilight (don't ask)

[VictorK]

Oh, so it's a punishment, then. Carry on.

[Prince_Asuryan]

I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about the people that "lost" the war and their families.

I did. Apologies for any offense I may have caused.

[Aerendar Valandil]

Then remember not to celebrate victory. That's a feudal idea that's best forgotten.

Instead, lament the loss of life and the destabilisation inherent in any war.

And, perhaps, in the case of several Western-European countries, the regaining of freedom. Not without reason is in my country the remembrance is divided in 'Dodenherdenking' (remembering those who died and suffered, taking place on the on the night of 4 may, and celebration of liberation on Liberation Day, the 5th of may. Sadly, many Eastern European countries changed one dictatorship for another.

As time has passed, the remembrance of death and suffering on the 4th has extended from nation-State-defined remembrance of the narrowly and nationally defined group of WWII Dutch Armed Forces and Resistance personnel, Dutch Civilians and Liberators, extending during the years through Jews and other minorities prosecuted and killed by the Nazi's, to a broader definition in the last decade of remembrance of tose fallen and suffering through war and prosecution everywhere in the world in the past, but also at this very moment. I laud this very inclusive definition. Liberation Day has in the same vein gained a status of remembering and celebrating not only the narorwly defined freedom of the Dutch Nation-State from occcupation as it was after 1945, but has extended to remembering and celebrating the blessing of freedom for all, everywhere on the planet.

That is of value.

[Giladis]

I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about the people that "lost" the war and their families.

I did. Apologies for any offense I may have caused.

No offense, mine were on both sides

[Allerion]

I think it only pertinent to remember that the Western Allies, especially the USA, did much to destabilise matters shortly after WWII, especially regarding the placement of the Jews.

OT (really sorry about this, but HAD to bring it up) so the USA destabilized europe? so the Marshall plan didnt stabalize europe? cause i kinda thought it did. you know, the whole "containment" of communisim and keeping it out of western europe by rebuilding countries thing...

anyway...

IT:

It is sad that in America we dont have a day to commemorate the end of WWII. The closest thing weve got is veterans day, which is for the veterans who were in the war (all wars at that), not the remembrance of the war itself.

[Prince_Asuryan]

I think it only pertinent to remember that the Western Allies, especially the USA, did much to destabilise matters shortly after WWII, especially regarding the placement of the Jews.

OT (really sorry about this, but HAD to bring it up) so the USA destabilized europe? so the Marshall plan didnt stabalize europe? cause i kinda thought it did. you know, the whole "containment" of communisim and keeping it out of western europe by rebuilding countries thing...

Correct. The Marshall plan kick started the failing European economy. It was a key aspect of the USA's involvement, and very important.

[RE.Lee]

In Poland we don't celebrate the end of WW2 much - during the communist era the regime would commemorate the 22 of July - the date of the formation of the stalinist government in Poland but it obviously never became popular. Actually its the dates of the German and Russian attacks on Poland that most Poles remember (even more so since september the 1 is also usually the first day of school).

OT: I think the way Roosevelt handled Jalta was kind of destabilising, not intentionally of course - once Truman took over things got better but the damage in Eastern Europe had already been done.

[Loki17]

[quote="Allerion"

It is sad that in America we dont have a day to commemorate the end of WWII. The closest thing weve got is veterans day, which is for the veterans who were in the war (all wars at that), not the remembrance of the war itself.[/quote]

Veteran's Day is actually Armistice Day, celebrating the end of WWI. It is now for honoring all military veterans, both those alive and dead. Memorial Day is at the end of May (the last Monday) and is for honoring all of those who have died in military service for the country.

[MadassAlex]

OT (really sorry about this, but HAD to bring it up) so the USA destabilized europe? so the Marshall plan didnt stabalize europe? cause i kinda thought it did. you know, the whole "containment" of communisim and keeping it out of western europe by rebuilding countries thing...

By the time Stalin took power in Russia, communism was dead. The "communism" you're taught of is actually just another kind of capitalism - it's just more brutal and dishonest about what it is. Essentially, it wasn't communism that was the problem; it was who was behind the wheel.

In addition, I was referring to the middle-east, where a new country was written into existence and its borders enforced, displacing thousands of the land's former citizens for the purposes of creating a watchdog state. The conflict that ensued hasn't ended since.

^^
Simple fact. Few good things come from any war, WWII inclusive. Celebrating anything to do with it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Loki17]

Simple fact. Few good things come from any war, WWII inclusive. Celebrating anything to do with it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Yeah, why would we celebrate the ending of one of the deadliest wars and the one of the worst atrocities of mankind? That makes no sense at all.

[Allerion]

Veteran's Day is actually Armistice Day, celebrating the end of WWI. It is now for honoring all military veterans, both those alive and dead.

hence what i said, except in different words.

By the time Stalin took power in Russia, communism was dead. The "communism" you're taught of is actually just another kind of capitalism - it's just more brutal and dishonest about what it is. Essentially, it wasn't communism that was the problem; it was who was behind the wheel.

well, i can honestly say that ive never heard of the soviets as being referred to as capitalists. not to be pedantic or anything, but communism is a form of government and capitalism is a type of economy. i think you mean to say they werent socialists anymore. im interested on why you think this, since ive never heard this before. but please start a new thread or pm me, cause i dont want to hijack this thread. (more-sorry)

back to V-E day?

[Prince Elileth]

Actually Communism and Capitalism are both economic systems. Now Communism can also be seen as a political ideology but it is first and foremost an economic system. Claiming Communism is a political system is a bit of a misnomer as Communism as a political system is a form of government in which the state operates under a one party system with a Communist economic system. Communism is wrongly believed to be a form of government first by many probably due to the fact that the implementation of communism on a national scale has been followed hand in hand by the creation of an authoritarian regime in said country. Examples of this being the USSR and China (yes I'm aware China's current economic model bares no resemblance to that of communism but once upon a time it did).

[Musashi]

Economies impinge on governance and vice versa. Or to be more precise, interest groups from both sides try to influence the other.

[Aerendar Valandil]

Simple fact. Few good things come from any war, WWII inclusive. Celebrating anything to do with it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Yeah, why would we celebrate the ending of one of the deadliest wars and the one of the worst atrocities of mankind? That makes no sense at all.

I very much agree with this. That the fighting of war is destructive, I think most people will be of. Crucial are the reasons the war was fought for, what was achieved as a result or wat was averted or blocked. Victory in itself is not enough to celebrate. And many victories in arms that were once celebrated have since been stripped of their laurels - and rightly so. In the case of WWII however, an immense human atrocity was blocked at least halfway, an imperial power was blocked in its expansion and several nations were liberated from occupation. I think WWII is one of the wars that even in retrospect was justified. WWII is beyond many other wars in that sense - even if one takes into account the naivete, interests and false decisions before and after the war of several of the important Allies.

[RE.Lee]

I think WWII is one of the wars that even in retrospect was justified

Please elaborate. There was no reason for this war, apart from one psychopatic individual, who started it.

[Prince_Asuryan]

I think WWII is one of the wars that even in retrospect was justified

Please elaborate. There was no reason for this war, apart from one psychopatic individual, who started it.

There is no reason for any war. But the fact that the psychopath needed to be stopped justified the other countries entering into a war of that scale.