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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:47 pm 
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Hello,

I'm considering to form Tiranoc Chariot units (two big or three big) in my army.
First of all, I need common tips, experienced advice and recommendations (follow my signature link to see how works my army) about using chariot units.
Now, some rules questions:

1.- Can I form ranks of one chariot? Can I reform and move in the same phase?

2.- Can I cast Regrowth on them to bring back to life a lost chariot? Are 1D3+1 wounds healed (it means that heals better than cavalry)?

3.- Can they be steadfast? How?

I see Tiranoc Chariot units working really well with the Lore of Life. The +2R is huge, it protects them from shooting and either from close combat attacks for making a good resolution. Shield of Thorns protects them from cavalry, specially from dangerous elven troops.


Cheers

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:14 pm 
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1a) Yes. But why you would I have no idea. You would lose all the impact hits from back rank chariots.

1b) No. The unit can't have a musician, so no swift reforming.

2) Yes and yes.

3) No. You could take a stubborn crown character in a chariot, but it wouldn't be able to join the unit.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:59 pm 
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Thank you! Looks difficult but still I lool for good points.
Now I have an interesting question:

Having overrun-charged with a chariot unit (for example through a Great Eagle), are the back rank chariots able to put impact hits on enemy units attacking (counter-charging) from the flank?

I've tried to explain it clearly... :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:24 pm 
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After reading pg 71 and pg 58 (and rulebook FAQ) I have to say I believe they are.

Nowhere does it say that they have to be in frontal contact.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:33 pm 
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sadly our tiranoc chariots would need 5 files to gain steadfast and you can only take up to 3. they don't have monstrous ranks or anyother special rule that would allow them to have rank from 3. (as for example tomb kings chariots have)

The only way I would think of our chariots to gain steadfast would to team up with ogres and use their signature spinemarrow ;) similar (well better) than stubborn would be light of battle from lore of light.

---

to the overrun / flank trickery... This seems possible by raw. Neat trick, but I would dare to say that it might cause some serious arguments if you would pull that off during a game :P however it seems hard to pull off as you need to make the charge with gongaline as you are not allowed to do the reform during overrun / pursuit...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:45 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
After reading pg 71 and pg 58 (and rulebook FAQ) I have to say I believe they are.

Nowhere does it say that they have to be in frontal contact.

I believe they are not after reading p71. RAW you get no impact hits at all, though I wouldn't go that far perhaps.

BRB p71, under resolving impact hits: "If the model with impact hits itself is charged ... then this rule [impact hits] gives no benefit.

Since the chariot unit is charged you deal no impact hits. Now, the rule seems to read like they didn't consider the situation mentioned (the chariot both charging and being charged), so the best compromise is to let the chariot have the impact hits vs the unit it actually charged but not vs the unit that charged it. But if you push the issue, then it's no impact hits at all.

Rod

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:50 am 
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the magnificent moomin monstrosity Prince of Spires is correct.

this is always funny when I have red the same page couple times and simply missed that part...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:43 am 
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Say the unit is three wide and overruns into an enemy such that only two chariots make contact. The unit is then charged frontally in the enemy turn, the 'free' chariot being hit. My reading of pg 58 is that both charging units will get full bonuses, including Impact Hits. So the previously uncontacted chariot will inflict Impact Hits on the new charger. The way I read pg 71, the rules make no distinction between this scenario and Sutilar's flank charge one.

I agree that taken in isolation the phrase you cite on pg 71 contradicts this Rod. RAI it makes little sense because the phrase is there to cover first round combats where the chariot did not charge (ie they have failed to consider that both units can be charging). I agree though that RAW the chariot unit's ability to make impact hits would be lost for any models contacted by the new charge. Which is a bit weird if say a chariot is half in contact with the unit it overran into and half with the freshly charging unit.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:51 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
RAI it makes little sense

Well, this is GW we're talking about... ;)

Though to be fair, it also makes little sense (purely from a logic POV) to get impact hits against a unit you haven't charged.

The easiest solution in my mind is to stick to: a chariot hits a unit, you get impact hits against that unit, a unit hits a chariot you don't get impact hits. So you would get impact hits to the front against the unit you originally charged, but not against the rest.

This sort of works with all rules. And definitely makes the most sense in a battle situation where impact hits represent a chariot barreling into a unit.

Rod

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:09 am 
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Even the RAI is unclear I think. The chariot unit has forward momentum. Say the enemy chargers had ASF and the chariot unit was Goblin. The charging enemy could feasibly wipe the whole 3-model unit out before it had a chance to attack the stationary enemy. A bit strange if we're positing the chariot charge as happening before the enemy charge.

It's a decent compromise suggestion Rod. But even this contradicts both RAW and RAI IMHO. A chariot in contact with both enemies would inflict Impact Hits, despite being charged. Plus in all circumstances, the charioteers will get the +1 S for Spears, despite not, on the face of it, charging the charging enemy.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:44 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
A chariot in contact with both enemies would inflict Impact Hits, despite being charged.

How so? The rules for impact hits very clearly state the exact opposite to this. When charged you do not benefit from impact hits. There is no exception listed for what happens when you both charge and get charged. Rules only state that impact hits only happen in the first round of combat and that if you are charged you do not get impact hits. Despite being illogical it's actually pretty clear.

The spears getting +1S is a different rule. It follows from the pursuit rule which states that you count as charging and the spear rule which states that you get +1S when charging. The spear rule makes no mention of what happens when you are charged.

Rod

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:02 pm 
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I believed your position was Rod that a chariot in contact with both charging and non-charging enemies should still inflict hits on the latter as a RAI-RAW compromise to make more sense. The Spear point is the same issue basically. That RAI the words "is itself charged" should have said something like "does not count as charging in the first combat round".

If we're referring to the pure RAW position then I agree, no Impact Hits for any model charged. But say this chariot unit is charged in the enemy turn by Ogres. The models they hit count as charging per pg 58. Does that negate the Impact Hits of the Ogres?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:25 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
I believed your position was Rod that a chariot in contact with both charging and non-charging enemies should still inflict hits on the latter as a RAI-RAW compromise to make more sense.

Pretty much my position from a RAI pov indeed. It's how I would play it since it makes the most sense to me (as far as sense has anything to do with it of course). Anyone wanting to argue can then get the RAW interpretation...

SpellArcher wrote:
If we're referring to the pure RAW position then I agree, no Impact Hits for any model charged. But say this chariot unit is charged in the enemy turn by Ogres. The models they hit count as charging per pg 58. Does that negate the Impact Hits of the Ogres?

Lol. I would love to see the face of the Ogre player who hears his impact hits are negated. :) Good point though. Unless Ogres have some strange definition of impact hits in their army book then indeed, ogres do not get impact hits in this situation.

Rod

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:59 pm 
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Of course this will all be obsolete soon but it's good to see we can still find so many holes in the rulebook.

:)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:40 pm 
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As to the multiple charges, impact hits, etc question, straight out of the BRB (pg 58)

"This might result in both sides having charging units in the same fight, in which case the charging units on both sides will get the normal bonuses conferred by charging (eg causing impact hits, benefiting from a lance's strength bonus, etc, and other bonuses described later in the rules section)".


Basically, in the hypothetical of the ogres charging into chariots that had overrun/pursued into a new unit, the chariots would get their impact hits (divided as you see fit amongst the units in contact) and the ogres would get their impact hits as well. Consider them as happening at the same time, even though the chariots technically "charged" in the previous turn, essentially it happened simultaneously with the ogres' charge, since both count as having charged and fighting their combat in this new round.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:25 pm 
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mcmulligan wrote:
As to the multiple charges, impact hits, etc question, straight out of the BRB (pg 58)

"This might result in both sides having charging units in the same fight, in which case the charging units on both sides will get the normal bonuses conferred by charging (eg causing impact hits...


I have read all the arguments, this last one definitely clears up! Quoting: "...eg causing impact hits...". Did you SpellArcher and Rod missed that? I really hope so, as I try to build a competitive Tiranoc Chariot unit...

Sutilar

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:57 pm 
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It all depends how you compare that quote to the "If the model with Impact Hits is itself charged.....then no Impact Hits will take place" of page 71. These options IMHO:

1) RAW, pg 71 overrides pg 58, no Impact Hits inflicted.

2) RAI, pg 71 badly written, should be ignored, Impact Hits inflicted.

3) Compromise, Impact Hits inflicted on the unit Overrun into but not the enemy charging into the combat in his turn.

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