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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 8:02 am 
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Hi there,

There is a unit of 9 knights with a character and a bolt thrower has a flank shot:

----C Bolt thrower
-----


Now the single shot will hit the second rank and pierce through that.

But wat if there is 4 rank and file and a character like this:

----C Bolt thrower.

Will I then hit the character first?

Also what about a Brets lance formation with 3 characters in the front row. Let's say my bolt thrower can shoot them in the front arc. Do I then hit 1 of the 3 characters and who decide which one is hit?

Hope you can help me out here


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 9:23 am 
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A few rules:

If you hit a flank, treat the files as ranks and ranks as files. The below rules are for hitting the front of the unit. So replace rank with file if you're shooting the flank.

For Boltthrower shooting, unit champions count as characters when determining who is hit. So where a rule says character it means character or unit champion.

if there are more then 5 R&F models in the unit, then a R&F models are always hit in each rank the boltthrower penetrates unless the rank hit consists entirely of characters.

If there are fewer then 5 R&F models in the unit you always randomize between all the models in the rank you hit (so first randomize between models in the first rank, then if you penetrate for the next rank).

Some emphasis to indicate where the unit is used and where the rank is used, as the difference is important for boltthrowers

So if you hit a flank of a single rank unit and there is a character on the end, then you will always hit the character first. The same goes for a bret lance with 3 characters in the front row. When you hit them you will randomize between the 3 characters. This is independent of the number of models in the unit as a whole, since there are only characters in that rank.

However, if you have a bret lance with more then 5 R&F models and there are 2 characters and a simple R&F model in the first rank then you will always hit the R&F model in the first rank.

Rod

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 11:43 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
A few rules:

If you hit a flank, treat the files as ranks and ranks as files. The below rules are for hitting the front of the unit. So replace rank with file if you're shooting the flank.

For Boltthrower shooting, unit champions count as characters when determining who is hit. So where a rule says character it means character or unit champion.

if there are more then 5 R&F models in the unit, then a R&F models are always hit in each rank the boltthrower penetrates unless the rank hit consists entirely of characters.

If there are fewer then 5 R&F models in the unit you always randomize between all the models in the rank you hit (so first randomize between models in the first rank, then if you penetrate for the next rank).

Some emphasis to indicate where the unit is used and where the rank is used, as the difference is important for boltthrowers

So if you hit a flank of a single rank unit and there is a character on the end, then you will always hit the character first. The same goes for a bret lance with 3 characters in the front row. When you hit them you will randomize between the 3 characters. This is independent of the number of models in the unit as a whole, since there are only characters in that rank.

However, if you have a bret lance with more then 5 R&F models and there are 2 characters and a simple R&F model in the first rank then you will always hit the R&F model in the first rank.

Rod


As Rod says. It's worth noting though, that in the case of Brets, their units come with a free champ and (as I understand it) they have to put the champion in the center of front rank under the lance rules.


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 10:02 pm 
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I believe this has also been covered in a couple of other posts in the forum. You could try searching for those too but AFAIK the conclusions were the same.


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 1:07 am 
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Cold Phoenix wrote:
As Rod says. It's worth noting though, that in the case of Brets, their units come with a free champ and (as I understand it) they have to put the champion in the center of front rank under the lance rules.


Does that make a difference, since the champion just counts as a character anyways?

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 3:49 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
If there are fewer then 5 R&F models in the unit you always randomize between all the models in the rank you hit (so first randomize between models in the first rank, then if you penetrate for the next rank).


Everything is correct but the randomise part. You do not randomise. There is actually very few things in WH that randomises (2 part model) and it will specify if you do.

If you have less than 5 R&F with 1 character and flank shots as per your diagram below
----C Bolt Thrower

You will hit the the models sequentially i.e Character than if there's a champion next to the character in sequences then the champion.

If you have a same situation as above but with a different unit formation as per the diagram below
-CG Bolt Thrower
--
i.e 3 in the first rank and 2 in the second rank with the character (G) hanging. C = champion
1st "hit" would hit the character (G)
2nd "hit" would randomise between champion (C) and R&F (-)
3rd "Hit would hit the R&F

If you have a same situation as above but with a different unit formation as per the diagram below
-CG Bolt Thrower
0--
i.e 3 in the first rank and 2 in the second rank with the character (G) and R&F hanging. C = champion
1st "hit" would randomise between character (G) and R&F (-)
2nd "hit" would randomise between champion (C) and R&F (-)
3rd "Hit would hit the R&F

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZvZqK5uQRE gives a good explanation of this

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 7:45 am 
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pk-ng wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
If there are fewer then 5 R&F models in the unit you always randomize between all the models in the rank you hit (so first randomize between models in the first rank, then if you penetrate for the next rank).

Everything is correct but the randomise part. You do not randomise. There is actually very few things in WH that randomises (2 part model) and it will specify if you do.

BRB p111, top right corner:
"If the rank hit by the bolt is made entirely of characters and champions or if the total number of rank and file models in the unit is less than five it will be necessary to randomise which model in the rank is hit."

I think we're talking about 2 slightly different situations. I was talking about hitting a rank with multiple models in it. If you have a unit of 4R&F models and a character and you hit the front of the unit, then you have to randomise between the character and the R&F models.

I agree that if you hit the flank of a unit which has only 1 rank then you always hit the model on that position of the rank. Which is what is meant by "if a rank is made entirely of characters and champions." You always look at what is available to hit in a rank you're hitting. If you can only hit characters then you randomise between them, per rank you hit.

Of course, to make it even more complex, in your last diagram, if there are more then 5R&F models, you will never hit the character (or unit champ), unless there is no other option:
--CG Bolt Thrower
----

In this instance, with the bolt hitting the flank, you will always hit a R&F model for each rank.

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 10:16 am 
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Okay, thank you very much guys for you answers. I know it probably have been discussed before, but I just couldn't find the right thread.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 1:16 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
pk-ng wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
If there are fewer then 5 R&F models in the unit you always randomize between all the models in the rank you hit (so first randomize between models in the first rank, then if you penetrate for the next rank).

Everything is correct but the randomise part. You do not randomise. There is actually very few things in WH that randomises (2 part model) and it will specify if you do.

BRB p111, top right corner:
"If the rank hit by the bolt is made entirely of characters and champions or if the total number of rank and file models in the unit is less than five it will be necessary to randomise which model in the rank is hit."

I think we're talking about 2 slightly different situations. I was talking about hitting a rank with multiple models in it. If you have a unit of 4R&F models and a character and you hit the front of the unit, then you have to randomise between the character and the R&F models.

I agree that if you hit the flank of a unit which has only 1 rank then you always hit the model on that position of the rank. Which is what is meant by "if a rank is made entirely of characters and champions." You always look at what is available to hit in a rank you're hitting. If you can only hit characters then you randomise between them, per rank you hit.

Of course, to make it even more complex, in your last diagram, if there are more then 5R&F models, you will never hit the character (or unit champ), unless there is no other option:
--CG Bolt Thrower
----

In this instance, with the bolt hitting the flank, you will always hit a R&F model for each rank.

Rod


Sorry my misinterpretation on your part but yes agree with you as well.

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