stand&shoot denial

[Elkadar]

During my recent game I have faced following situation:

My infantry unit and my ally character on flying mount declared charge on enemy handguner that were around 8 inch away.
Opponent declared stand&shoot against my infantry. I started to argue that he can not do that because stand&shoot is denied by flying character charging form within base movement range and handguner will be engaged in cc before they could aim their weapons.
My opponent claimed that he can declare stand&shoot against any valid target and my unit (charging from longer distance than base movement) was a valid target.

It was a tough discussion so I let it go for the sake of sportsmanship, but emphasising my point that I was right anyway:)

However, before I bring this topic again in my gaming group, I would like to ask you guys for opinion. Just in case I'm stupid

[Lady Phoenix]

During my recent game I have faced following situation:

My infantry unit and my ally character on flying mount declared charge on enemy handguner that were around 8 inch away.
Opponent declared stand&shoot against my infantry. I started to argue that he can not do that because stand&shoot is denied by flying character charging form within base movement range and handguner will be engaged in cc before they could aim their weapons.
My opponent claimed that he can declare stand&shoot against any valid target and my unit (charging from longer distance than base movement) was a valid target.

It was a tough discussion so I let it go for the sake of sportsmanship, but emphasising my point that I was right anyway:)

However, before I bring this topic again in my gaming group, I would like to ask you guys for opinion. Just in case I'm stupid

I would like to jump in first as Im a noob and dont fully undertsand the rules

As I see it

Your enemy can stand and shoot against your infantry because they are more than normal movement distance away

Ref - BRBp17 - 2nd paragraph - As the unit requires some time to aim and fire its weapons, a stand and shoot reaction can only be declared if the range to the enemy is greater than the charging unirts move characteristics.

Ill be honest and say I dont know about stand and shoot against a flying charger, but I would guess that this still applies, the defenders would be shooting into the air rather than along the ground?

Im happy to be wrong though - as long as its a learning experience.

[John Rainbow]

Your opponent was correct. He can stand and shoot the '2nd unit' as you had it. To start with I would advise you to reread the section on charging and stand and shoot on pp.16-17 of the BRB. Charges, etc are done as follows:

1. Declare charge (you do not move anything here)
2. Declare & resolve charge reaction (this is where stand and shoot happens)
3. Move onto another unit that you want to charge and repeat steps 1 and 2 until you have nominated all of your charging units
4. Move charging units in any order

The big takeaway here is that no units move until after all charges have been declared and reactions have been resolved. As such your opponent can choose to hold against the first charge, then stand and shoot or flee or whatever against the second unit that declares.

[Lady Phoenix]

Your opponent was correct. He can stand and shoot the '2nd unit' as you had it. To start with I would advise you to reread the section on charging and stand and shoot on pp.16-17 of the BRB. Charges, etc are done as follows:

1. Declare charge (you do not move anything here)
2. Declare & resolve charge reaction (this is where stand and shoot happens)
3. Move onto another unit that you want to charge and repeat steps 1 and 2 until you have nominated all of your charging units
4. Move charging units in any order

The big takeaway here is that no units move until after all charges have been declared and reactions have been resolved. As such your opponent can choose to hold against the first charge, then stand and shoot or flee or whatever against the second unit that declares.

Yeah, I got one right

To expand on this.

Im guessing you can stand and shoot against a flying charger, however, you can only stand and shoot against one unit.

So, the bluff/double bluff is this

Scenario 1

I have two units that can charge, lets say some nasty dark elf archers of some description.
I want to charge them with unit 1, but Im worried that he will stand and shoot, so I FIRSTLY declare a charge with unit 2. My opponent declares a stand and shoot. I THEN Declare a charge also with unit 1 and my opponent is unable to stand and shoot, so therefore can only hold

Scenario 2

My opponent has two units that can charge my archers. One is fluffy and pretty while the other is big and mean, possibly even green
My opponent declares a charge with said fluffy unit, so I declare a hold, as I want to stand anbd shoot against green meanies. However, my opponent had no intention if charging my unit with a second unit and Ive missed my chance to get off a round of free ballistics.

[SpellArcher]

What John said.

A lot can depend on the order in which you declare the charges. You could for example declare with the infantry. He gets a charge reaction and decides to Stand and Shoot, damage resolved immediately. Your infantry remain exactly where they are (unless they fail a Panic test). You then might declare with the flyer. He can't Stand and Shoot (both because he can only do this once and your flyer is too close) but could for example Flee (moving immediately) at that point.

Once all charges on the table have been declared and reactions resolved, only then do you roll for and move chargers. Normally one unit at a time (in the order you please) but in this case simultaneously because both units are charging the same enemy, per pg 23.

Lady Phoenix you had it right and the flyer counts as M10 here per pg 70. Stand and shoot is possible only if it starts over 10" from the target.

Edit: you've also ninja'd me! It all sounds right to me, except that, as I discussed above, a unit that's already stood and shot retains the option to Flee a second or subsequent charge declaration.

[Eirik]

It's already been said, but always bears repeating.

Declare all charges/reactions and roll FIRST
then move

Don't move anything, until everything has been declared/reacted/rolled.

If you declare/roll/move one unit, your charge phase is over, you can't do any more charges.

[John Rainbow]

EDIT - John, did you mean pages 16-17 and in my BRB pages 36-37 is spell resolution and next spell

I did. I've change my post. Thanks.

[pk-ng]

Scenario 1

I have two units that can charge, lets say some nasty dark elf archers of some description.
I want to charge them with unit 1, but Im worried that he will stand and shoot, so I FIRSTLY declare a charge with unit 2. My opponent declares a stand and shoot. I THEN Declare a charge also with unit 1 and my opponent is unable to stand and shoot, so therefore can hold or flee.

Scenario 2

My opponent has two units that can charge my archers. One is fluffy and pretty while the other is big and mean, possibly even green
My opponent declares a charge with said fluffy unit, so I declare a hold, as I want to stand anbd shoot against green meanies. However, my opponent had no intention if charging my unit with a second unit and Ive missed my chance to get off a round of free ballistics.

Correct but small error

It's already been said, but always bears repeating.

Declare all charges/reactions, resolve reaction (i.e if you flee you roll to flee, you S&S you roll for S&S) and then roll for charge FIRST
then move

Don't move anything, until everything has been declared/reacted/rolled.

If you declare/roll/move one unit, your charge phase is over, you can't do any more charges.

[NexS]

Your opponent was correct. He can stand and shoot the '2nd unit' as you had it. To start with I would advise you to reread the section on charging and stand and shoot on pp.16-17 of the BRB. Charges, etc are done as follows:

1. Declare charge (you do not move anything here)
2. Declare & resolve charge reaction (this is where stand and shoot happens)
3. Move onto another unit that you want to charge and repeat steps 1 and 2 until you have nominated all of your charging units
4. Move charging units in any order

The big takeaway here is that no units move until after all charges have been declared and reactions have been resolved. As such your opponent can choose to hold against the first charge, then stand and shoot or flee or whatever against the second unit that declares.

+1

[Prince of Spires]

Your opponent was correct. He can stand and shoot the '2nd unit' as you had it. To start with I would advise you to reread the section on charging and stand and shoot on pp.16-17 of the BRB. Charges, etc are done as follows:

1. Declare charge (you do not move anything here)
2. Declare & resolve charge reaction (this is where stand and shoot happens)
3. Move onto another unit that you want to charge and repeat steps 1 and 2 until you have nominated all of your charging units
4. Move charging units in any order

The big takeaway here is that no units move until after all charges have been declared and reactions have been resolved. As such your opponent can choose to hold against the first charge, then stand and shoot or flee or whatever against the second unit that declares.

+1

Perhaps to clarify something, in case it wasn't clear: 'Flee' reactions are resolved immediately (including the moving). So if a unit flees, then it immediately moved 2D6 away from the charging unit. The charging unit itself stays in place until all charges have been declared and you are rolling for charge distance.

Also, once you are fleeing, you have no more choice about what next charge reaction you pick. So you can hold, stand & shoot and then flee. You can't flee and then hold.

Rod

[SteVieBizzLe]

What about if the flyer was in the unit of infantry? Would that change anything?

[Lady Phoenix]

What about if the flyer was in the unit of infantry? Would that change anything?

Im guessing that if he was IN the unit then instead of having two seperate units you now have one and the enemy can stand and shoot. However, the flyer wouldnt take any hits as the normal cannon fodder always dies first?

[SteVieBizzLe]

But part of the charging unit starts the charge move within their movement value, so technically a stand and shoot reaction is not possible.

[Lady Phoenix]

But part of the charging unit starts the charge move within their movement value, so technically a stand and shoot reaction is not possible.

Doesnt a unit always move at the slowest persons rate? I.e. if you have a unit that can move at 5" and acharacter that moves at 4" then the ENTIRE unit moves at a basic 4"?

[Elkadar]

But part of the charging unit starts the charge move within their movement value, so technically a stand and shoot reaction is not possible.

Doesnt a unit always move at the slowest persons rate? I.e. if you have a unit that can move at 5" and acharacter that moves at 4" then the ENTIRE unit moves at a basic 4"?

+1
You are right.
Unless, you charge faster character out of the unit but then the unit stays behind and can not declare another charge the same turn.

Anyway, thanks everyone for all those answers. It seems that I was stupid at the end
However, we all made an error while playing that particular game. There were a lot of points on the table so to keep it faster, we declared all of charges at once, instead of resolving them one by one. This led to messing up with rules. Next time I will make sure we follow exactly the sequence as John advised to avoid any misunderstanding. Thanks again.

[Lady Phoenix]

Anyway, thanks everyone for all those answers. It seems that I was stupid at the end

Stupid is the last word I would use

1 - You must be smart as a stupid person wouldnt be able to understand half the rules of warhammer
2 - You let your opponent play the rule that he thought was correct, which showed great sportsmanship.
3 - You then had the intelligence to discuss it later on via a forum and when you discovered you were wrong you took it graciously as a learning experience.

and most importantly for me anyway

4 - You have given a noob like myself the opportunity to discuss some finer points of the rules, thus improving my knowledge of the game.

[Loriel]

Lady Phoenix said it spot on. Why else we had this community and rules section but to talk about the rules and seek guidance?