Overrunning issues

[Shadeseraph]

I'm quite sure this is fairly easy to answer and I'm just being dense, but I'd like some help clarifying some things, all of them related to the overrun / pursue maneuvers:

In the following case, the rightmost unit is overruning after a combined fight. In this fight, due to having a larger frontage than the side of the destroyed unit, the overruning unit had to maximize during the charge, meaning that the other unit is in the way of the overruning unit.



Can said unit overrun into the leftmost unit? This is confusing to me because the BRB both shows cases of units clipping over each other and blocking each other.

I've got a couple questions more, but I want to check the BRB thoroughly first.

[Iluvatar]

It depends.

If the red, engaged unit flees to the left, both blue units can pursue. Check the distance between them and the other red unit, and if their pursue is enough, they can charge that one.

If the unit is wiped out, the rightmost unit can't overrun due to the other blue unit blocking it, unless:
- the other blue unit also charged this turn, and overruns far enough to stop blocking
- or the rightmost blue unit can fly/hover.

[Loriel]

this is these question that rulebook doesn't clearly state how things are done. Are you doing them sequencing, or do you first nudge them to 1 inch away from each other and then do stuff.

But I would play it exactly as Iluvatar had stated.

[John Rainbow]

I agree with Iluvatar also.

[Eirik]

In general I would play it as Iluvatar mentioned.

In friendlies I would probably just allow the overrun, especially if my opponent wanted to do it, because clipping is kind of silly and you're supposed to give people an inch.

If you want to play by the rules, at least start encouraging your friends to be mindful of how they maximize when they charge, since there are often ways around this clipping scenario by staggering as you come in so that the flank charger has their right most model touching the rear model of the defending unit only by the corner. It might not work in your picture where the charger has a lot more files than the defender has ranks.

[pk-ng]

1) figure direction of pursuit.
a) If the right blue unit has more ranks then the engaged unit will flee away from the right blue unit
b) If the centre blue unit has more ranks then the engaged unit will flee away from the centre blue unit
c) If both blue units has equal ranks then randomise the direction the engaged unit will flee away from

2) assuming the engaged unit flee from the right blue unit. pivot the red unit, centre to centre from the unit it's fleeing from (in this case the right blue unit).
3) do your restraint test IF applicable
4) fleeing unit rolls
5) move fleeing unit the said distance
6) relevant panic test IF applicable
Now the tricky part
7) once the fleeing unit has reached the final fleeing position
8) pivot centre blue unit facing fleeing unit's FINAL position, centre to centre
9) indicate which unit will be pursuing first, second, third and etc. VERY IMPORTANT
10) roll dices for each unit as specified in step 9.
11) if you roll high in enough you will catch fleeing unit
12) if you roll high enough and depending on final position of fleeing unit you may overrun into the left red unit.

[Loriel]

@pk-ng your other wise good flow chart has one flaw. You actually roll flee & pursuit distances and if you roll equal or higher then you will destroy the unit in position where it is. If pursuiters doesn't get higher then you do the moves and it is actually mentioned that even in situation where the actual movement could bring the chaser to base contact with the fleeing unit it will not destroy it but rather stays 1 inch away. However if you overrun / pursuit in to a new enemy then you will charge it or destroy it if the new enemy is fleeing.

[Prince of Spires]

If the unit is wiped out, the rightmost unit can't overrun due to the other blue unit blocking it, unless:
- the other blue unit also charged this turn, and overruns far enough to stop blocking
- or the rightmost blue unit can fly/hover.

A bit late perhaps, but this is incorrect.

An overrun works exactly the same as a normal pursuit move, with the following exceptions:
- you are only allowed to make it if you have charged into combat that turn
- it's optional, no test is required to restrain
- enemy needs to be wiped out completely

Other then that, "an overrun is essentially a special pursuit move ... all other rules governing pursuit rules apply to overruns". So if you could pursue, then you can also overrun.

When you have multiple units in a combat, and you pursue an enemy unit (or overrun, since that works the same way), you do not take the other friendly units in the combat into consideration when moving the pursuers. See the diagram on p61. The first pursuing unit can pivot through the other unit in the combat.

Only after they have been moved do they become an obstacle through which friendly units can't move.

Rod

[Eirik]

Think Rod is right, which just goes to show that the 'give them an inch' rule is always good advice

Except for terrorgheists. If one of those things are 1'' out of range on a scream then it's just too ******* bad for your opponent.

[John Rainbow]

Interesting Rod. I have to check this out now...

[John Rainbow]

Ok just read the rules on this again and I don't see which rules you are referring to. If you come within 1" of an intervening unit or piece of terrain during a pursuit you have to stop. This is clear (first paragraph on pg. 58). The only mention of not following this and allowing units to overlap at the end of combat is in moving the fleeing unit. Do you have a more specific reference Rod?

[Loriel]

I have to add little funny fact about the overrun direction.

The exact wording is that directly away from the biggest unit. FAQ states that directly away means center to center. This actually mean that you can dictate the angle of breaking by clipping units a little. We have concluded in our local gaming club to house rule it simplier that directly away is in same angle and line as the unit as we had always played it that way and felt that it would make the game much more different to play.

[SpellArcher]

I would agree with Rod because of the diagram on pg 61.

However, pg 58 states that if the Pursuit roll is enough to hit a new enemy unit it becomes a Charge, "following all the normal restrictions".

Presumably these still include not moving through a friendly unit?

[John Rainbow]

I would agree with Rod because of the diagram on pg 61.

However, pg 58 states that if the Pursuit roll is enough to hit a new enemy unit it becomes a Charge, "following all the normal restrictions".

Presumably these still include not moving through a friendly unit?

I can see this but the text doesn't mention anything about this and says intervening units make you stop 1" away. So are we rules as written or pictures as shown?

[Eirik]

Wow. I knew some of the pics in the book were unclear, but I didn't know any contradicted the rules.

[SpellArcher]

Page 60 mentions that the unit pivots around it's centre before it moves, the pg61 picture shows what they mean (ie this can be through a friendly unit). This initial pivot is (I'd argue) intended to work exactly like that for the fleeing unit, ie it ignores 'winning side' models. But they should have explicitly stated this in the text, I agree.

Pg 60 also mentions that the pivot is technically prior to the pursuit as such ("and then pursues") so coming within 1" wouldn't be a problem at that point. It's fiddly but I'd argue that pg58's "if the pursuit move (my emphasis) would take the unit into contact with" doesn't apply because the units are already in contact. I guess the issue is then whether the pursuers are 'taken through' the friends or 'taken out of'. Clearly they cannot halt 1" away from them as instructed because they start closer.

Messy but I believe per the diagram is the least contradictory way of doing it. It depends how you interpret the words "or through". I suggest that their context implies that the pursuer would have to move into the friends from over 1" away, then "through" and out the other side, which is not the situation here.

But returning to Shadeseraph's Overrun, I still think the unit doesn't move if you roll high enough to contact the fresh unit because as soon as the dice land (before a model is touched) the Pursuit becomes a Charge and the pg60 diagram and pursuit wording cease to apply.

[pk-ng]

@pk-ng your other wise good flow chart has one flaw. You actually roll flee & pursuit distances and if you roll equal or higher then you will destroy the unit in position where it is. If pursuiters doesn't get higher then you do the moves and it is actually mentioned that even in situation where the actual movement could bring the chaser to base contact with the fleeing unit it will not destroy it but rather stays 1 inch away. However if you overrun / pursuit in to a new enemy then you will charge it or destroy it if the new enemy is fleeing.

but you move to you final position. so irrelevant when you destroy the unit (it gets destroyed either way).

[Eirik]

I think 'Least contradictory' is a good way to put it SpellArcher. Often we have to make the least assumptions to draw a conclusion from ambiguous rules, because we can't draw a definite conclusion.

[Loriel]

@pk-ng your other wise good flow chart has one flaw. You actually roll flee & pursuit distances and if you roll equal or higher then you will destroy the unit in position where it is. If pursuiters doesn't get higher then you do the moves and it is actually mentioned that even in situation where the actual movement could bring the chaser to base contact with the fleeing unit it will not destroy it but rather stays 1 inch away. However if you overrun / pursuit in to a new enemy then you will charge it or destroy it if the new enemy is fleeing.

but you move to you final position. so irrelevant when you destroy the unit (it gets destroyed either way).

7)
4) fleeing unit rolls
5) move fleeing unit the said distance/quote]

I was referring to this part. From page 56. You make a roll to flee 2d6 and then roll to pursue 2d6. If the pursuer rolls equal or higher the fleeing unit is destroyed. Then page 57 explains that if fleeing unit rolls higher then you do the flee move.

and it is not irrelevant where and when you destroy it, as it triggers panic tests.

In page 60 in firection of flight is mention that sometimes you might "catch" fleeing unit with actual movement, but still stop 1 inch away.

[SpellArcher]

I think 'Least contradictory' is a good way to put it SpellArcher. Often we have to make the least assumptions to draw a conclusion from ambiguous rules, because we can't draw a definite conclusion.

Thanks Eirik.

This is GW, after all.

[pk-ng]

@pk-ng your other wise good flow chart has one flaw. You actually roll flee & pursuit distances and if you roll equal or higher then you will destroy the unit in position where it is. If pursuiters doesn't get higher then you do the moves and it is actually mentioned that even in situation where the actual movement could bring the chaser to base contact with the fleeing unit it will not destroy it but rather stays 1 inch away. However if you overrun / pursuit in to a new enemy then you will charge it or destroy it if the new enemy is fleeing.

but you move to you final position. so irrelevant when you destroy the unit (it gets destroyed either way).

7)
4) fleeing unit rolls
5) move fleeing unit the said distance/quote]

I was referring to this part. From page 56. You make a roll to flee 2d6 and then roll to pursue 2d6. If the pursuer rolls equal or higher the fleeing unit is destroyed. Then page 57 explains that if fleeing unit rolls higher then you do the flee move.

and it is not irrelevant where and when you destroy it, as it triggers panic tests.

In page 60 in firection of flight is mention that sometimes you might "catch" fleeing unit with actual movement, but still stop 1 inch away.

a) you don't need to roll flee then pursue. There's no sequencing rule for this part. You need to decided if you want to pursue / restraint before he rolls his flee though.
b) But in either case if your overrun (not catching) you still charge the new enemy unit. The 1" rule would still apply if you come in contact to friendly units / impassable in all cases unless you can overrun a new enemy unit. In which case it's considered a new charge.
c) Panic test has always been immediate.

remember the issue is the direction of the secondary in combat and it's pursuit path. GW rules are not clear on this.

How would you play the secondary unit's pursuit path because this is huge.

[Loriel]

Incase you were talking only about the OP question and answered directly to that. then your diagram is correct with the exection that you don't destroy the unit in the final position, but with the position that it was when the break occured -> then work out the the direction where pursuers will go (as if it were fled)

If you are going for general charge flow chart, that isn't correct. If you read the rules from page 56 not being even a bad RAW hammerer you will first roll flee, then roll pursue roll and after depending on those roll you either destroy it (move the pursuers / Overrunners) or if you don't destroy it then you make the flee move and move pursues or overrunners.

• Loser takes Breaktest with every unit that is still in close combat
  • if passed -> combat reforms (some units may not pursue if they still have enemy, some units may if they are only in base contact with the breaking enemy etc..).
  • If failed:
• Winning side choose if they try to restrain pursue with a standard leadership test with any eligible unit. He will also decide which unit will pursue fleeing units, so they cannot pursue two unit at the same time(notes any special rules that affects for example frenzy)
  • Loser rolls 2d6 roll to flee with every breaking unit (adds any modifiers etc. for example swiftride or skaven scurry away)
  • Winner rolls to pursue with 2d6 for each unit (adds any modifiers etc. for example swiftride)
    • Work out for each separate unit that was fled and pursued wether any of the pursuers have equal or higher pursuit roll than the unit they were pursuing after.
      • If victorious units roll is equal or higher fleeing unit roll then fleeing unit is destroyed
      • If fleeing unit roll is higher, then move the fleeing unit (ignoring any units or impassable)
      • Do reforms on units that restrained
      • Move pursuers directly towards unit they pursuing after. You will also make the pursue move for units that were caught.

[pk-ng]

If you are going for general charge flow chart, that isn't correct. If you read the rules from page 56 not being even a bad RAW hammerer you will first roll flee, then roll pursue roll

No. The BRB never states the sequence explicitly. BRB just writes "Rules for Flee" then "Rules for Pursuit". There's no RAW for it.

You don't get the problem
The problem is the pursuit direction/path of the 2nd unit pursuing.

[NexS]

Ok just read the rules on this again and I don't see which rules you are referring to. If you come within 1" of an intervening unit or piece of terrain during a pursuit you have to stop. This is clear (first paragraph on pg. 58). The only mention of not following this and allowing units to overlap at the end of combat is in moving the fleeing unit. Do you have a more specific reference Rod?

If the overrun would get you into contact with a new enemy, it's a charge, right? Therefore you can move within 1" of things and wheel etc. to get into a maximised position?
BUT if you have something blocking the straight-through path then you can't.

That's how I read it anyway.
(though, the rules could change in the next couple of months)

Edit:
Looking back at the OP... the unit on the right is basically in base contact with the bottom friendly unit so you couldn't run through them.
Therefore, you may not overrun.