Shrinking Units, Characters, and No More Foes

[manveruppd]

A situation came up in my last game that my opponent and I disagreed on:

His unit of Ironbreakers had been charged in the flank by my Silver Helms. My champion challenged and his Runelord was moved to the leftmost spot of the second rank so as to be in contact with the champion. On his next turn, my Helms get charged in the flank, then on my next turn, I also charge a prince on a star dragon and a frostheart into the Ironbreakers (yes, the challenge was still ongoing, as my champ was ridiculously lucky with his saves! :p I found it strange that the rules would let us stalemate like that btw, I always thought that challenges only last for 2 combat rounds but the wording in the BRB can also be read to mean "until one challenger is dead", but anyway, that's off topic), so that the combat looks like this:



Apologies for the terrible diagram, I'm a Battle Chronicler noob. You can just barely see the Runelord in the second rank of Ironbreakers, I couldn't work out how to make him be a different colour.

My question is: Ironbreakers get wiped out by a combination of attacks and Thunderstomps, until only Runelord (still unable to kill my champion!) remains. I always assumed that my beasties would get nudged to get back into contact with the Runelord as described in "Shrinking Units and Multiple Fights" on p61 of the BRB. However, my opponent argued that the now sad and lonely runelord constitutes a new unit, and since he's no longer in contact with the frostie and dragon, the "No More foes" rule on the same page would apply to them! He based this argument on a bit he showed me in the FAQ that goes:

Q: At what point after a unit has been wiped out do any characters
remaining count as having left the unit? (p101)
A: As soon as the last model from the unit has been
removed, any remaining characters will count as a new unit.
Note that this will cause Panic tests to all friendly units
within 6” (including the newly formed unit of character(s))
as the unit has been destroyed.

It wasn't a huge issue in terms of how the battle went (as the phoenix could overrun into the RL anyway), but to me this is a huge issue, and completely antithetical to the spirit of the rules. I would have thought that whether the lone character is a new unit or not, that new unit would still be engaged by the things it had been charged by, as the old unit was. The fact that it's not in b2b with the phoenix or dragon is irrelevant, and simply a consequence of the characcter's irregular placement due to the challenge.

Furthermore, that FAQ quote seems really unclear to me. The page of the BRB it references doesn't talk about units getting wiped out, only about characters voluntarily leaving units. Plus, because it talks about panic tests, I suspect (but can't prove) that it was specifically talking about shooting and magic, not melee!

It seems to me that, if characters whose unit has been wiped out are allowed to count as no longer in combat simply because they're not in b2b, all sorts of shennanigans become possible. Say I have 10 cavalry with an Archmage in them running around in single file, and they get charged. Enemy character issues a challenge, my mage goes right to the back, combat is fought and my unit is wiped out. Now the Archmage is out of combat, 20" away from the enemy, and can't even by reached by an overrun! I pointed this out to my opponent, who said that in that situation the attacker would be nudged back into combat, and our situation was different because the runelord was also in combat with the silverhelms (and only the silverhelms, accordingto him). I personally can't see how the two situations differ, and what difference being engaged with another unit would make. Either it's a new unit that doesn't inherit "in close combat" status, or it does inherit.

My belief (and the way I always thought of it in my head in the 20+ years I've been playing this game, even if this exact situation hasn't come up before), is that, whether you're a new unit or not, you were still in combat with everyone your old unit was in b2b with. The fact that you weren't is irrelevant, and getting a "new unit" status doesn't create a force field around you that repels the people who just slaughtered literally everyone around you!

I've searched around on this subject and found an epically long thread here on the same subject, where there were people on both sides of the argument. I was astonished at how many people argued it the same way as my opponent, actually, which made me doubt myself before basic common sense reasserted itself. :p

How have you guys been playing situations like this? Would a lone character whose unit has been wiped out and who isn't in contact with enemies still be in combat with the enemies who wiped out his unit, or not? Have you seen this situation come up in any tournaments, and, if so, how was it ruled? I've looked in the ETC's faq but haven't found anything on this subject.

Any input is appreciated cause this question is scrambling my brain!

[pk-ng]

your friend is wrong and you are correct.
You are never able to get out of contact from enemy unit in combat unless that unit is COMPLETELY WIPED. In your case the Runelord (which was part of the unit when the said unit said) is still in combat with the said 3 units (FP, SD, Helms)
The only condition that a unit is consider out of combat is when the Warriors (or the W unit) complete wipes out the helms (just for argument sake). Thereby allowing to OR or reform

[John Rainbow]

I think this is one of those odd situations that falls between several rules 'holes'. I tend to think that most tournaments would rule it the way you described i.e. nudge to remain in B2B but I can see the other side of the argument too. I'm sorry to say that like all of these kind of issues, I don't think you'll find consensus in how people play this or how it should work. I would also add that just because it would seem common sense for things to work in a particular way doesn't mean warhammer works that way. There are plenty of rules that act contrary to how you thing they should in reality but we play with them just the same.

[pk-ng]

also the rule your friend is referring to is for magic / shooting.

[Loriel]

I was first like, oh good what RAW dispute. After (quickly referring) the way I read the rules, I cannot claim that RAW would be as your opponent said in this matter and most certainly RAI isn't (shouldn't even be a question )

there is possibility that some units would be left out of combat if they cannot nudge in btb contact with enemy (due impassable terrain other units)

although you directly didn't ask this, you can change color of individual model in battle chronicler army list, pressing buttom "has own color" (if my memory serves me right, I am at work now). there is also second possibility to add models in the unit (mainly if you wish to add command group), you can press (was it special buttom) in the chronicler and you can add special model inside the unit (allthough that model can never go outside of the unit) and it doesn't show in chronicler battle report html output in the list but rather inside the units part. thus making characters like this is not good idea, as there is possibility to attach unit to move and merged inside another unit (allthough it doesn't rank up as does special choice)... well you probably didn't understand a word I am saying. I can post a picture when I get home

[manveruppd]

Re: Battle Chronicler, thanks Loriel, I'm slowly getting to grips with it but it's a pretty clunky interface - and that's speaking as someone who tries to use open source/free software as much as possible so I'm prettty used to clunky interfaces! :p To be fair, once I figured out that you had to plan out everything in advance (eg. if a character left a unit during your game, you'll have to have 2 army list entries for him) it becomes simpler.

As for the subject at hand, it's nice to see that most of you seem to agree with me, but it's very disheartening to see that, like me, none of you can find a single rule or faq entry that clarifies it, even though it's such a fundamental aspect of the game! I guess Step Up means it comes up more often in 8th than in previous editions so maybe they would not have foreseen that, but that faq entry actually confuses matters more, and it takes a special kind of incompetence to write an FAQ that makes things worse instead of clarifying!!

[Loriel]

Sorry mods, little bit wrong thread and category, but as I promised for the chronicler.



so in short in the first picture making the own color for some unit choices. it is also possible to add symbols or even images (could have top picture of frosthearth phoenix for example)

Second is how to make special individual inside unit.

the best part with the (in my example) the blue model is that you can "kill" it and it will rank up nicely. if you use the attachment tool, it doesn't rank up the particular unit but rather takes the models label and movement arrorws off and makes it anchored to same unit so it will follow the unit if the unit is moved.

here is one example of my own battle report done with the chronicler http://loriel.kapsi.fi/WHFB_BR/HE074/BR.html .

In the first shot I have not attached any characters inside unit so their labels are shown so it will tell the approx position of the model then i attach them. secondly if one would use the special choice in the unit it would make all the point cost / additional information to appear in the army list thing.

And if you are wondering how to make the real life pictures in the actual report well, that needed a little paint skills and little code parsing (mainly the br.html file has fixed picture size that needed to be adjusted manually) too bad I haven't found any way to add real pictures to the actual program to support the battle.

[Loriel]

HAHA! epic paint skills. I accidently cutted the last part too much

WELL there is that flag "attached" and then a droplist of all the units that the particular unit can be attached to.

[manveruppd]

Aaaaah! So you flag them as "attached" and it'll just insert them in the unit and rearrange their ranks around them? Thanks! I just dragged the runesmith over the Ironbreakers in the screenshot in the OP cause I didn't know how to do that :p

[Loriel]

sadly ( I haven't found a way) to make another unit to rank up properly. the attached flag will only remove movement arrow / label and anchor the attached unit to the another unit so it will move together with the bigger unit.