Birona's Timewarp and great weapons

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manveruppd
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Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:37 pm

Birona's Timewarp and great weapons

#1 Post by manveruppd »

BRB p.66 states that, where units have both the ASF and ASL rules, the two cancel each other out and the unit strikes in normal Initiative order. Now, if a unit that has both ASF and ASL (eg Swordmasters) were to have Birona's Timewarp (which grants ASF) cast upon it, would it again gain ASF? Or would the presence of ASL cancel out both instances of ASF?

Argument for NO: logically, ASL does not cancel out ASF, it simply cancels out its effect. So the model STILL has ASF. A spell that grants ASF cast on a unit that already has ASF (even though it can't enjoy the effect of ASF because it also has ASF) would not give it "more ASF" - as it ALREADY has ASF.

Argument for YES: raw does actually state that the two rules "cancel each other out". So an ASF unit with great weapons doesn't actually have ASF, or ASL, and can therefore gain ASF. Furthermore, in the introduction to the special rules section, p66 states "the effects of multiple special rules are cumulative". Examples of other special rules stacking with themselves include Fight in Extra Ranks, Magic Resistance, and pretty much a million other things.

My opinion: dunno. On the one hand it sounds illogical, and feels cheesy, so no. But RAW would seem to say yes.

Couldn't find anything about this in any FAQ. Have there been any tournament rulings about this?
Nicene
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Re: Birona's Timewarp and great weapons

#2 Post by Nicene »

There's been discussion of this in other threads. Check the tournament FAQ thread, for example. Almost everyone agrees that a model with two copies of ASF and one copy of ASL will strike at its initiative.

US masters 2014 rules this way.
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pk-ng
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Re: Birona's Timewarp and great weapons

#3 Post by pk-ng »

Nicene got it correct. WHFB FAQ directly quoted:

"Page 66 – Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have.
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to “[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However, unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of
the first paragraph."
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