combat refoms

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Nicene
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combat refoms

#1 Post by Nicene »

Can the center of a unit shift during a combat reform?

What are some good examples of legal and illegal combat reforms? I just don't understand how they're supposed to work.
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Curu Olannon
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Re: combat refoms

#2 Post by Curu Olannon »

Yes. A legal combat reform fulfils the following:
- all individual models currently in base contact with an enemy model must remain in base contact with an enemy model
- all command models must be in the front rank after a reform, unless there are fewer models in the front rank than there are command models
- the unit cannot use its combat reform to change what side it faces an enemy unit. For example, if you for some reason engage an enemy unit that you can only fight corner-to-corner in the flank, you can`t combat reform to "envelope" around it, thus contacting its front

Good example of a legal combat reform: White Lions 5-wide with full command and 1 character is fighting a unit of Darkshards, 5-wide without command or characters. The Lions are aligned as far to the left as possible with maintaining full contact. They combat reform to align as far right as possible (effectively moving the entire unit 40mm). Another example: Silver Helms with BSB 5 wide are fighting Cold One Knights head-to-head. The BSB is in the middle position, allowing 3 Cold One Knights (and supporting attacks) to target him. The High Elf player seeks to avoid this and by means of a combat reform he can shuffle the unit 25mm to either side, placing the BSB so that he only has base-to-base contact with a single model.

Examples of illegal combat reforms: White Lions 5 wide with full command and 1 character is fighting a unit of Darkshards, 5-wide without command or characters. The White Lions combat reform to 3 wide to push the character into the second rank (ILLEGAL). Silver Helms with BSB and full command 5 wide are fighting Cold One Knights head-to-head. The Silver Helms combat reform to present their flank to the Cold One Knights (ILLEGAL). This latter move is illegal because command has to stay in the front rank and since they were all engaged prior to the combat reform, it is impossible to keep them all in the front rank and keep the same 5 models engaged whole the CoKs are 5 wide.

It`s kind of hard to give general examples. It would be easier if you had specific cases.
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SpellArcher
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Re: combat refoms

#3 Post by SpellArcher »

The bit about the centre shifting is in the BRB Errata & FAQ.

Say you are 5-wide infantry fighting 7-wide, you might want to expand out rear ranks to go 9-wide.

Say you are 7-wide 20-mil infantry fighting 3-wide MC who contact you so that one of your files can only fight because of corner contact. Essentially picture him contacting with 2 models dead centre and then simply adding the third on the flank of his choice. You kill one and he removes so that both his remaining models can fight but now 3 files of yours can't. You reform simply shifting your unit to the side so your whole frontage is in contact again.

The above are both legal. Any reform while contacted on more than one facing (eg front and flank) for example is illegal, per pg 55.
theviking
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Re: combat refoms

#4 Post by theviking »

Yes you can shift the center. The only restrictions are that you can't remove a model from base contact and if you are engaged on two flanks you aren't allowed to combat reform.

Example 1: Your knight bus overruns into a new unit but ends up with only half the front rank in base contact. Assuming the unit doesn't break, you can do a combat reform and slide the unit sideways until the entire front rank is in base contact. If the other unit desires to also combat reform, they will need to pass a ld test modified by the amount they lost combat (none if steadfast) and then both players dice off to see who moves first.

Example 2: A horde of spearelves is charged by a unit of 5 chaos knights. They lose combat but are steadfast and hold, then can pass a ld test to combat reform and rank up 7 wide, which is the number of models in base contact with the knights. They cannot go any narrower because then some of the infantry that were in base contact would be out of combat.

Example 3: 21 phoenix guard deployed 7x3 are engaged with a unit of zombies, then are flanked by a unit of vargheists. The PG finish off the zombies to their front and can then combat reform so the vargheists are to their front. They can keep their 7 wide formation or change to any other width greater than 3 models, which is the number of PG currently in base contact.

Example 4: A unit of archers with an archmage on the front corner is flanked on the archmage's side by a unit of dark riders. The archers reform to have ranks and put the dark riders to their front, but the archmage must remain in base contact with at least one of the dark riders, as otherwise you would be removing a model from combat.

Example 5: A unit of white lions is charged to the front by a unit of ironguts and an ironblaster, which is on the front left corner of the white lion unit. The white lions can combat reform wider to get more models in base contact with the ironblaster, but must not remove any models that are in base contact with the ironguts. They can slide over far enough to leave just one model in corner to corner contact with the irongut on the front right corner, as long as the number of ironguts and white lions in base contact remains the same or increases.
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Re: combat refoms

#5 Post by SpellArcher »

theviking's examples are more complete than mine. It's worth remembering though that in the first one, your overrunning unit must wheel to maximise contact, making the scenario unusual. Can happen though.
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Re: combat refoms

#6 Post by Ferny »

Curu Olannon wrote:Yes. A legal combat reform fulfils the following:
- all individual models currently in base contact with an enemy model must remain in base contact with an enemy model
- all command models must be in the front rank after a reform, unless there are fewer models in the front rank than there are command models
- the unit cannot use its combat reform to change what side it faces an enemy unit. For example, if you for some reason engage an enemy unit that you can only fight corner-to-corner in the flank, you can`t combat reform to "envelope" around it, thus contacting its front

...Another example: Silver Helms with BSB 5 wide are fighting Cold One Knights head-to-head. The BSB is in the middle position, allowing 3 Cold One Knights (and supporting attacks) to target him. The High Elf player seeks to avoid this and by means of a combat reform he can shuffle the unit 25mm to either side, placing the BSB so that he only has base-to-base contact with a single model.
It`s kind of hard to give general examples. It would be easier if you had specific cases.
Is this allowed? I thought you couldn't because you are removing the BSB from combat with two enemy models (see your rule #1). And if it is allowed, would it be forbidden if there were a champ/character in the CoKs in base-to-base with the BSB, and therefore you would be shuffling out of combat with this guy (albeit still being in b2b with the unit?).
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Nicene
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Re: combat refoms

#7 Post by Nicene »

This is really helpful; thanks. I didn't realize the BRB faq addressed this issue as well!
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Re: combat refoms

#8 Post by pk-ng »

Ferny wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:Yes. A legal combat reform fulfils the following:
- all individual models currently in base contact with an enemy model must remain in base contact with an enemy model
- all command models must be in the front rank after a reform, unless there are fewer models in the front rank than there are command models
- the unit cannot use its combat reform to change what side it faces an enemy unit. For example, if you for some reason engage an enemy unit that you can only fight corner-to-corner in the flank, you can`t combat reform to "envelope" around it, thus contacting its front

...Another example: Silver Helms with BSB 5 wide are fighting Cold One Knights head-to-head. The BSB is in the middle position, allowing 3 Cold One Knights (and supporting attacks) to target him. The High Elf player seeks to avoid this and by means of a combat reform he can shuffle the unit 25mm to either side, placing the BSB so that he only has base-to-base contact with a single model.
It`s kind of hard to give general examples. It would be easier if you had specific cases.
Is this allowed? I thought you couldn't because you are removing the BSB from combat with two enemy models (see your rule #1). And if it is allowed, would it be forbidden if there were a champ/character in the CoKs in base-to-base with the BSB, and therefore you would be shuffling out of combat with this guy (albeit still being in b2b with the unit?).
No this is illegal. You can never reduce the number of models contacting characters.
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Re: combat refoms

#9 Post by Curu Olannon »

pk-ng wrote:
Ferny wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:Yes. A legal combat reform fulfils the following:
- all individual models currently in base contact with an enemy model must remain in base contact with an enemy model
- all command models must be in the front rank after a reform, unless there are fewer models in the front rank than there are command models
- the unit cannot use its combat reform to change what side it faces an enemy unit. For example, if you for some reason engage an enemy unit that you can only fight corner-to-corner in the flank, you can`t combat reform to "envelope" around it, thus contacting its front

...Another example: Silver Helms with BSB 5 wide are fighting Cold One Knights head-to-head. The BSB is in the middle position, allowing 3 Cold One Knights (and supporting attacks) to target him. The High Elf player seeks to avoid this and by means of a combat reform he can shuffle the unit 25mm to either side, placing the BSB so that he only has base-to-base contact with a single model.
It`s kind of hard to give general examples. It would be easier if you had specific cases.
Is this allowed? I thought you couldn't because you are removing the BSB from combat with two enemy models (see your rule #1). And if it is allowed, would it be forbidden if there were a champ/character in the CoKs in base-to-base with the BSB, and therefore you would be shuffling out of combat with this guy (albeit still being in b2b with the unit?).
No this is illegal. You can never reduce the number of models contacting characters.
Sure you can. Where does it say you cannot? A model has to remain in contact with an enemy model, not the same enemy models or the same amount of enemy models for that matter. This is a perfectly legal move as far as I know, this has been played frequently and I have never heard anyone quote a rule that says otherwise. If you know of such a rule, please enlighten us.
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teep
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Re: combat refoms

#10 Post by teep »

Curu Olannon wrote:Where does it say you cannot?
In Germany's most widely used comp pack (c.o.m.b.a.t. 8.0) they unfortunately do - next to no congas, only four dice per spell; also, botw, mr frosty and a Star Dragon can never go to the same party:( winter is coming and along with it, a big a$§ "gamey/tricks-of-the-trade confusion...

Sorry for the OT rant, but I'm attending my first tourney next weekend and got a bit riled up re-checking the comp pack after having stumbled upon this thread.
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Re: combat refoms

#11 Post by Curu Olannon »

While I can see that it might make sense to overrule it, this is pretty clear and anyone doing it differently is essentially houseruling. Of course, if houserules dominate your meta you need to respect them (same as the green entries in the ETC FAQ override the rulebook and people playing with said FAQ need to respect them), but that don`t make the houserules BRB Warhammer rules ;)
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Re: combat refoms

#12 Post by teep »

That it doesn't, obviously - but it makes me want to relocate to England where you encounter warhammer, ETC
and a huge variety of houserule sets :)
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Re: combat refoms

#13 Post by Curu Olannon »

I expect to go abroad for tournaments 4-5 times next year. This year it`s only been 2, but it´s a great way to expand your horizons. Besides, it`s tons of fun to go with friends :)
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