Arcane Unforging vs. The Nine Books of Nagash

[weekendwarlord]

Arcane Unforging vs. The Nine Books of Nagash

I have scoured the web searching for discussions on how Arcane Unforging will affect Nagash, but hardly anyone is discussing this it seems so thought I'd start this here.

I have seen some people saying he only loses 4 spells as he is still a Level 5 Wizard, while others say he loses all 9, as all his spells originate from the book(s).

What does everyone think.

[SpellArcher]

I think it should just unforge him completely into a pile of goo or somesuch but sadly I'd have trouble getting that past an opponent.

[Domine Nox]

How is the item worded?

[weekendwarlord]

Pretty sure it would be against the rules to post that info. Just search google for 'Nagash leaked', you will find it.

[Domine Nox]

My first approach would be that he loses Ryze, and then 3 randomly chosen. Because he is still a level 5 Wizard, and the book only gives him 9, or in other words it gives him Ryze and 3 spells. That's my thoughts on it.

[Prince of Spires]

He loses all his spells.

If you get a spell from an item then when you lose the item you lose the spell.

The item specifically mentions that it generates the 9 spells for him. Losing the item thus means losing all the spells.

He still remains a lvl5 wizard for dispelling purposes.

Rod

[Domine Nox]

It says he 'knows' not that it 'generates.' The lores listed from the book are even the same lores he is listed as knowing for being a lvl 5 Wizard. So if the stance is that the book generates 9 spells, then he also gets 5 for his Wizard level in addition.

[Prince of Spires]

The knowing of 9 spells is still part of the item description.
Also, the third line of the item sais "he generates the other spells..." So the generation of all spells is part of the item.

The part of 5 extra spells is invalid. He knows 9 spells, not 9 extra spells. Army book overrides BRB. Thus he only knows 9 spells.

Rod

[Domine Nox]

But then what about...

"Nagash is a level 5 wizard. He uses spells from..." Which is listed separately from the item.

The item does not invalidate him being a Level 5 Wizard who uses listed lores as described by the rulebook. So either the book is in addition, or supplemental.

[weekendwarlord]

It's becoming clear that GW did not properly think this through at all. With three armies that have access to Arcane Unforging able to delete the nine books, there should be a clear statement in the rules as to how it affects Nagash when they're gone.

[pk-ng]

It's becoming clear that GW did not properly think this through at all. With three armies that have access to Arcane Unforging able to delete the nine books, there should be a clear statement in the rules as to how it affects Nagash when they're gone.

Did you really think GW would make clear rules? This is GW we are talking about...

[NexS]

I have to say 4 spells. I'm with Domine here with the named spell first.

I'd much ratherget rid of the armour. I can destroy all 9 spells better by killing the giant mofo.

[Prince of Spires]

It says he 'knows' not that it 'generates.'

You mean the part where it says: "He generates the other 8 spells..."?

But then what about...

"Nagash is a level 5 wizard. He uses spells from..." Which is listed separately from the item.

The item does not invalidate him being a Level 5 Wizard who uses listed lores as described by the rulebook. So either the book is in addition, or supplemental.

Please point out to me in Nagash's rules where it tells you how to generate his spells. Is that or is that not part of an item?

Whether or not he is a lvl5 wizard is irrelevant. The general rules of generating spells for a wizard are overridden by Nagash's special rules. Note that in the part you quote it actually doens't say he generates his spells, just that he has access to those lores. Compare that to for instance the Everqueen, who has the same mechanic of being able to use multiple lore whos rules do say: She can generate ..." All his spells are generated by the nine books of Nagash. So they are directly attached to the item.

Destroy the item and all the spells generated because of the item are removed. And the Nine books of Nagash are very clear on the subject. They generate all 9 spells for Nagash, which is why the item sais:
Arcane item: Nagash knows 9 spells. The first is... He generates the other 8 spells from the lores ...
Even if Nagash would be a lvl1 wizard would he still have those 9 spells. And then it's a simple case of:
Q: What happens if a magic item is destroyed by any means?
(Reference)
A: All of the rules, bonuses, etc. granted by that magic item
are lost, and have no further effect on the battle.

Rod

[Domine Nox]

If that is how it gets ruled, then against any army with access to High Magic Nagash is the most overpriced character to date. Since his entire strength is in being a wizard (yes he's a beefy monster, but a monster with his stat line would be 1/3 of his cost). And a single casting of Arcane Unforging has a 25% chance to remove that entire strength.

[aurynn]

I dont think he will lose all 9 spells, but 4. He still is a lvl 5 wizard. His remembering the 5 spells is not dependent on the books. The availability of the 4 remaining is and the generation of his spells is... If we assume that generation takes place before the battle then this effect is done and ended after the spells are generated and cannot be removed by destroying the item as the effect is not there anymore.

However the books actually do bestow 4 more spellslots which will be removed by Unforging. That is their only persisting effect that should and can be removed with their destruction. One of the removed spells should be Ryze as it is specified as the one spell gained auto through the item. Another possible solution would be that he loses all 9 spells and generates 5 new ones for himself.

Not talking about the fluff logic now. Fluffwise I would say that the item and its fluff is very badly made in relation to its effect and rules.

My friend - a former tourney arbiter agrees with me.

[Prince of Spires]

If that is how it gets ruled, then against any army with access to High Magic Nagash is the most overpriced character to date. Since his entire strength is in being a wizard (yes he's a beefy monster, but a monster with his stat line would be 1/3 of his cost). And a single casting of Arcane Unforging has a 25% chance to remove that entire strength.

That's not a rule argument though. Please point out the place where it says that 5 of his 9 spells don't depend on the item. Or that 5 of those spells are generated without using the item.

If we assume that generation takes place before the battle then this effect is done and ended after the spells are generated and cannot be removed by destroying the item as the effect is not there anymore.

I'm not sure if there actually are still items that give extra spells to users. But AFAIK, all items that grant extra spells have always been ruled that it the item is destroyed then those spells are gone. Which is also backed-up by the BRB FAQ:
Q: What happens if a magic item is destroyed by any means?
(Reference)
A: All of the rules, bonuses, etc. granted by that magic item
are lost, and have no further effect on the battle.

spells generated by an item fall in the categories "bonuses, etc". So they are gone.

However the books actually do bestow 4 more spellslots which will be removed by Unforging.

Can you point out the rules of the item where it says that they bestow 4 spells or 4 extra spells? Looks pretty simple to me, the item says Nagash has 9 spells, therefore the item bestows 9 spells on him and all other spell generation is ignored. Remove the item and all 9 spells granted by the item are removed.

Fluffwise it makes perfect sense if you apply this logic. 9 books => 9 spells => destroy a book and you destroy a spell => destroy 9 books (which this item is) and you destroy 9 spells. Looks pretty simple to me.

As for tournaments, they will have to come up with their own ruling. As of now, all we have is the actual written rules to go on. Unless your friend also happens to be the writer of the book of course. In which case I'll gladly bow to his knowledge.

Rod

[aurynn]

It does not say "it bestows 9 spells either". It says - as you pointed out - Nagash has 9 spells. HE has. Not the books. So according to this sentence he should not lose any spells as HE has the spells.

So you are saying that a lvl 5 wizard needs this item(s) to have any spells? Not IMHO.

EDIT: ROFL the wording is actually so bad, that it seems that the item actually has no effect at all. Its all Nagash by himself!

[John Rainbow]

Why is there not a vote for "AAAAARGH Warhammer Explodes!" ?

[finreir]

If I were to referee call it (which I do a lot)
I would say he loses 4 spells and remains a level5 wizard.
The item says he knows nine spells
His rules say he is level 5
The item does not say it bestows nine spells and thus you have to make an assumption that it bestows the extra knowledge he requires to gain the additional 4.
I also find this to be fair to both players
I feel he would lose 4 random spells but a valid argument I'd there for the spell mentioned send 3 random

[Prince of Spires]

The item does not say it bestows nine spells and thus you have to make an assumption that it bestows the extra knowledge he requires to gain the additional 4.

On the other hand, the item does say it generates the 9 spells so I find assuming that the item bestows all 9 spells on the less of an assumption. Also, the other 5 spells are not generated normally. There is a clear relation between how those spells are generated and the item.

Rod

[finreir]

The item does not say it bestows nine spells and thus you have to make an assumption that it bestows the extra knowledge he requires to gain the additional 4.

On the other hand, the item does say it generates the 9 spells so I find assuming that the item bestows all 9 spells on the less of an assumption. Also, the other 5 spells are not generated normally. There is a clear relation between how those spells are generated and the item.

Rod

I know your point but where it is not clear in either direction I will always take the middle ground as a ref not jump into a conclusion either way, this is a genuine FAQ needed we can argue all day here there is no wrong or right just a judgement to be made on a comp by comp basis

[Grenic]

On the other hand, the item does say it generates the 9 spells ...

As it sounds like the item generated the spells, would he lose any due to a miscast result?

[nick larking]

The nine books are listed as a magic item of nagash.
Descriptions says "nagash knows 9spells" in it.

By writing that under the books of nagash item we can kinda assume that nagash knows those 9spells from that magic item. Otherwise there would not even be a point in listing that specific item or description of its rules, since nagash would know the spells even without the books (magic item).




As usual GW rules and how they should be used are very clear though...
Anyway i voted loses all 9spells.

[Prince of Spires]

On the other hand, the item does say it generates the 9 spells ...

As it sounds like the item generated the spells, would he lose any due to a miscast result?

I think it's covered by the following FAQ:
Q: What happens if a Wizard loses one or more Wizard levels? (p28)
A: Whenever a Wizard loses one or Wizard levels, he instantly
forgets a single spell for each Wizard level lost, chosen at
random from those he knows.

So yes. If you lose a wizard level, you lose a spell. It's a pretty unconditional FAQ ruling. In a roundabout way, I feel it's also supported by the following faq entry"

Q: Can a model lose Wizard levels granted by a magic item? (p28)
A: Yes.

It's sort of the reverse situation of that.

Rod

[John Rainbow]

If I were to referee call it (which I do a lot)
I would say he loses 4 spells and remains a level5 wizard.
The item says he knows nine spells
His rules say he is level 5
The item does not say it bestows nine spells and thus you have to make an assumption that it bestows the extra knowledge he requires to gain the additional 4.
I also find this to be fair to both players
I feel he would lose 4 random spells but a valid argument I'd there for the spell mentioned send 3 random

I think this is the most sensible option and what I see happening. It is also what I would do if the situation arose.