Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

[Asurion Whitestar]

Hey all, any comments and opinions would be greatly appreciated.

So, as I and the rest of my gaming circle understand, Venom Thickets cause a DT (Dangerous Terrain) test when you move through them.
Now the only real issue that arises is when Cavalry (and other units that take DTTs from Forests) Charge, Flee or March through a VT, to us it's obvious that Cav etc take two tests.

So, my issue is that I know I'm right as the rules a quite clear.
But, everyone I meet outside my circle (namely at Tournaments, whom have Cav) tell me otherwise.
Their arguments are that, you only ever take one DTT at any one time, this is ridiculous to me, as there are absolutely no rules to support their arguments. If there are, can someone please Please prove me wrong.

How I see it:
A Cavalry unit charges a unit in or on the other side of a VT.
They have to take a DTT for charging through the Forest, because it is a VT, they have to take a(nother) DTT (two tests).

Now this gets even more complicated (for others to understand) when say they are Fleeing through said Forest and unit instead of charging through and to the unit. Now they have to take three tests, one for fleeing through an enemy unit, one for fleeing through a forest and one for moving through a Venom Thicket.
Gods forbid there be a second or third unit through the flee path or the unit be under the effects of the Curse of Anraheir, whereas these DTTs would stack up.

So can anyone weigh in here?

[Prince of Spires]

I would say that a single cause of DT can only ever cause 1 DT test at a time.

A venom thicket is not both a forest and a VT. It is only a VT, which is a special kind of forest. Normal rules for forest say that certain units like cav etc take DT test when charging, fleeing etc through. The VT replaces these rules with everyone takes a DT test for any kind of move. It's not an addition to the forest rules it replaces them.

So 1 DT test for fleeing/charging/marching through a VT

If there is then a unit in the way, or another terrain piece that causes a DT test, then that is a new cause for a DT test and thus you take a second test.

Rod

[pk-ng]

agree 1 test for venom thicket.

[Asurion Whitestar]

Thanks for the swift reply Rod, but I'd like to point out that a Venom Thicket's rules (or any other forest's rules) don't actually replace the forest rules, otherwise that would make all types of forests non-dangerous terrain to Cav, when they are. It would also mean that different types of forests (other than an ordinary forest) don't give cover or break steadfast in units or give stubborn to Skirmishers, when they do. :3

Page 119, under FORESTS: All forests and woods use the rules given below.

I'd also like to point out that Forests are only treated as Dangerous Terrain if a model is cavalry, monstrous cavalry or a chariot (or flying).
The same as for Venom Thickets, they aren't actually DT (unless the model is Cav/Mon Cav or a Chariot) but rather only make you take a DTT when you move through it.

That's why even if the model is Cav etc, they take a test for running through DT (because a Forest is DT to them), then the VTs (additional) rules cause you to take a DTT, and not that it counts as DT to other Troop Types, otherwise that's what it would say.

I'm not trying to say that the a VT is a special type of double Dangerous Terrain but rather Dangerous Terrain (if you are Cav etc) that causes you take an additional DTT (or a single test if you are Infantry etc).

[Asurion Whitestar]

agree 1 test for venom thicket.

If you're infantry yes.

[Domine Nox]

But you don't take additional dangerous terrain tests for the same piece of terrain. It just tells you to make a test. So a Venom Thicket makes things that would not normally take a Dangerous Terrain test, to do so. Cavalry are already taking a Dangerous Terrain test, and as such I do not see any reason that they would have to take a 2nd.

[Asurion Whitestar]

But you don't take additional dangerous terrain tests for the same piece of terrain. It just tells you to make a test. So a Venom Thicket makes things that would not normally take a Dangerous Terrain test, to do so. Cavalry are already taking a Dangerous Terrain test, and as such I do not see any reason that they would have to take a 2nd.

But that's exactly it, you are only taking one DTT for a single piece/area of DT, the VT has special rules which say you need to take a DTT, not that it is DT but that you have to take a test for DT.
I believe we're on the same page until the rules overlap and by the rules as RAW and IMO RAI state you take a DTT for moving through it.
The rules for forest don't cease to apply, and at no point in the Rule Book does it state you only actually take one test per piece of terrain period no matter the additional/special rules.

This is the main concern I have, is that people don't seem to understand the concept between a piece of Dangerous Terrain and a piece of terrain which causes a Dangerous Terrain test.

Even the fluff is on my side, (even though I don't see it as a side, but the rules).

The Venom Thicket is full of poisonous critters right, that's what the test is for, you're fending them off. As opposed to a "normal" as it were, Dangerous Terrain test whereas you're testing to see if you made it through the hazardous area unscathed.
I'm pretty certain that's why it states, you have to take a test for moving through it.

The elements here are:
Forests; treated as Dangerous Terrain to Cav etc. So take a test for "running" through a forest.
Venom Thicket; not treated as Dangerous Terrain but causes you to take a Dangerous Terrain test from its rules.

It seems to me that people are not reading the rules for VTs for what they are.

I call attention to other terrain pieces, namely rivers.

Rivers are not dangerous terrain to any troops, so a good control.
Necrotic Ooze states that is dangerous terrain to all Troop types. If this were the case with Venom Thickets it would be worded this way, but it isn't.
The same for a Raging Torrent, it is Dangerous Terrain.
If the intent of the VT was for it to be DT for ALL troop types it would simply state "A Venom Thicket is dangerous terrain, it also grants models within it the Poisoned Attacks special rule (applies to close combat attacks only)", or something similar and not talk about venomous critters within it or dangerous terrain tests, just that it is simply, dangerous terrain.

The logic is flawless, is it not?


Have I won anyone over yet?

To add, this topic first came up when I myself was charging through a VT at an enemy Wood Elf unit, before the new book but the rules are the same for Wood Elves and forests.
I noted myself that I had to take an additional test, because those are the rules.

[Iyenrithe]

Your logic does make sense. The venom thicket doesn't make it a piece of dangerous terrain, it just says you take a dangerous terrain check. I agree with the fluff/logic-wise argument as well, because the reason you take a dangerous terrain check when moving is because its bad terrain for a cav model to move through. There is a chance of tripping over logs or getting hit by tree branches and what not that infantry do not have the same danger from. The Venom Thicket also adds an additional element that everyone has to worry about in the form of dangerous animals/fauna that are poisonous

Its kind of similar to when a weapon does -1 to your armour save and then you gain the armour piercing rule, they stack, where having two sources of armour piercing does not stack. Even though the first one is effectively the second one, the fact remains that they are different. In this case, Venom Thickets are not dangerous terrain, they just cause a dangerous terrain check. If the Venom Thicket was difficult terrain, it would not

I glanced through the Errata/FAQ and didn't see anything saying otherwise. I also can't find any rules saying you only have to take one test a phase, So RAW and fluff both seem to point towards two tests

[SpellArcher]

RAW I think you've got a point Asurion.

From a game balance PoV though, as a WE player, I wouldn't try to claim this. Venom Thicket is very good already.

[Ferny]

I posted a query about the lion strider rule, asking whether it was essentially useless, given that lions do not take DT tests as they're infantry.

The one exception which was pointed out to me was venom thickets, where they (ordinarily) would have to take the test because the rule simply says 'take one' rather than 'you are in DT'. However, because of their strider rule, lions remain impervious to this one DT test they would otherwise be required to make. Once the point was raised and explained, there didn't seem to be much controversy to it.

I'm not sure which side of the debate this supports, just throwing it out there!

[SpellArcher]

Useful stuff if your opponent is bringing the Acorns!



Looking forward to this mirror match where I start 100pts up...

[Asurion Whitestar]

I posted a query about the lion strider rule, asking whether it was essentially useless, given that lions do not take DT tests as they're infantry.

The one exception which was pointed out to me was venom thickets, where they (ordinarily) would have to take the test because the rule simply says 'take one' rather than 'you are in DT'. However, because of their strider rule, lions remain impervious to this one DT test they would otherwise be required to make. Once the point was raised and explained, there didn't seem to be much controversy to it.

I'm not sure which side of the debate this supports, just throwing it out there!

Thanks Ferny :3.
This is a good example, and does very much prove that the a VT isn't DT but causes DTTs. It also opens the Q n' A to the Strider rule as well.
Striders (or subspecies) don't have to take DTTs, so they are immune to DTTs which is fantastic when people use more terrain than simply hills and forests, with the occasional tower or building.
Every Tournament and game I've played in eighth so far outside my circle don't use anything else other than (usually) 2 forests, 2-4 hills, with 1-2 buildings. In our friendly games we often use the Random Terrain gen chart for true randomness and to throw some real tactical pieces down that keep us on edge. Or so we think/thought.

In the tournament scene only the forests are mysterious, and with them not even touching on rivers, marshes, obstacles etc, it narrows their view to that of VTs being ridiculously powerful, which they are good but not the best/worst piece in the game. But because they only look at Forests and normal hills, coupled with that most people seem to get the wrong interpretation of the rules, it places (throws) my strategy clean out the window and I'm labelled as being "Gamey" or as we like to refer to it in our circle; "Rule Bending", when I'm not in the slightest.

This is why in my games I go over it with my opponent before the game starts, ironically the only people that actually seem to "get it" are the casual gamers and/or those without any Cav models like Dwarves. The last game of the Tournie I fought our very own Ele(ssehta), and he very much understood. We actually both taught each other something that game, as he taught me that Forests give Stubborn to Skirmishers, which is a HUGE thing for me as I usually play Skirmishy Armies with WEs. We did forget the VTs extra DTT during the game which I fled my Waywatcher out of the forest and they were caught by his Reavers. I'm sure it could have played out a little differently being that my WW were Stubborn and he needed to take another DTT but that's why I like Tournaments so much, growth and fun. In the end I don't think the extra points for said units would've made a difference in score anyway.

That was my favourite game of the Tournie, not because I got my biggest win, but because Ele's such a cool guy and great player.

Sorry for rambling on and on and thanks for reading if you managed to get this far. :3

So back on topic, does anybody else play a VT this way, or will they now?

[Asurion Whitestar]

Useful stuff if your opponent is bringing the Acorns!



Looking forward to this mirror match where I start 100pts up...

Indeed it is, WLs and the Ranger's Standard are great because of their Strider rules. Although you cant field a whole HE army with WLs and can only have 1 Ranger's Standard, you can very easily out Tact the opponent with a few units that will cause real havoc being immune to DTTs from VTs and possibly everything else as well.

[pk-ng]

Thanks for the swift reply Rod, but I'd like to point out that a Venom Thicket's rules (or any other forest's rules) don't actually replace the forest rules, otherwise that would make all types of forests non-dangerous terrain to Cav, when they are. It would also mean that different types of forests (other than an ordinary forest) don't give cover or break steadfast in units or give stubborn to Skirmishers, when they do. :3

Page 119, under FORESTS: All forests and woods use the rules given below.

I'd also like to point out that Forests are only treated as Dangerous Terrain if a model is cavalry, monstrous cavalry or a chariot (or flying).
The same as for Venom Thickets, they aren't actually DT (unless the model is Cav/Mon Cav or a Chariot) but rather only make you take a DTT when you move through it.

That's why even if the model is Cav etc, they take a test for running through DT (because a Forest is DT to them), then the VTs (additional) rules cause you to take a DTT, and not that it counts as DT to other Troop Types, otherwise that's what it would say.

I'm not trying to say that the a VT is a special type of double Dangerous Terrain but rather Dangerous Terrain (if you are Cav etc) that causes you take an additional DTT (or a single test if you are Infantry etc).

I can follow this interpretation but let me put it this way

Forest -> Chariot, Cav, MC take DT test
Venom Thicket -> Special forest
Venom Thicket rule -> All models take DT test. Instead of just Chariot, Cav, MC.
The variable isn't the DTT it's the "models".

If Chariot, Cav, MC charge/flee/pursue/march through Fungus Forest it still takes DT test because it's a Forest...with special rules.

i.e Venom Thicket is a Forest...with special rules which also forces all units (not just Chariot, Cav, MC) to take DT test.

[NexS]

I can follow this interpretation but let me put it this way

Forest -> Chariot, Cav, MC take DT test
Venom Thicket -> Special forest
Venom Thicket rule -> All models take DT test. Instead of just Chariot, Cav, MC.
The variable isn't the DTT it's the "models".

If Chariot, Cav, MC charge/flee/pursue/march through Fungus Forest it still takes DT test because it's a Forest...with special rules.

i.e Venom Thicket is a Forest...with special rules which also forces all units (not just Chariot, Cav, MC) to take DT test.

+1

[Asurion Whitestar]

I can follow this interpretation but let me put it this way

Forest -> Chariot, Cav, MC take DT test
Venom Thicket -> Special forest
Venom Thicket rule -> All models take DT test. Instead of just Chariot, Cav, MC.
The variable isn't the DTT it's the "models".

If Chariot, Cav, MC charge/flee/pursue/march through Fungus Forest it still takes DT test because it's a Forest...with special rules.

i.e Venom Thicket is a Forest...with special rules which also forces all units (not just Chariot, Cav, MC) to take DT test.

+1

Are you guys serious..?
I don't mean to poke fun, but seriously.

I'm not interpreting anything, because there is nothing to interpret. The rules aren't given in a way that needs to be interpreted. They aren't written in a different language nor do they need to be explained (apparently they do, but I digress) because they are'nt misleading.

The rules don't say that AT ALL.. why would you think or take the rules out of context..?

Look, you don't read the rules and interpret it as you wish or take it as that the rule is talking about other troop types when it clearly isn't and actually goes out of it's way to state the opposite.

Maybe you didn't actually read the rules for terrain properly. I'll reference everything here so it is crystal clear.

Page 119; FORESTS
...
All forests and woods use the rules given below.
...
(Which include)
FORESTS AND MOVEMENT
If a cavalry, monstrous cavalry or chariot model marches, charges, overruns, flees or pursues through a forest it must take a Dangerous Terrain test (page 117).
This rule alone even indicates that forests aren't dangerous terrain, only that you have to take a dangerous terrain test when cavalry, monstrous cavalry and chariots march, flee, charge, pursue etc (run) through it. This is clarified on page 117, under DANGEROUS TERRAIN.
...
As such, cavalry, monstrous cavalry and chariots treat all terrain other than open ground as being dangerous terrain, as described above.
Page 118; HILLS.
HILLS AND MOVEMENT
Unless otherwise stated, hills are treated as open ground. Amongst other things, this means that hills do not cause Dangerous Terrain tests in cavalry and other mounted models.
...
VENOM THICKET
Any model in a Venom Thicket has the Poisoned Attacks special rule (applies to close combat attacks only). However, any model moving through a Venom Thicket must take a Dangerous Terrain test, to represent their attempt to fend off the venomous critters within.

I'm not sure exactly how this can be taken any other way other than exactly how it is written.

Page 120; RIVERS
...
NECROTIC OOZE
Necrotic ooze counts as dangerous terrain for all models.
...
RAGING TORRENT
A raging torrent is dangerous terrain.


With the above examples, you can clearly see the difference in definition between Dangerous Terrain and terrain that causes dangerous terrain tests. Yes, the Venom Thicket is the only piece of terrain that has the rules to take a dangerous terrain test without it actually being dangerous terrain, but that doesn't change the fact that it isn't dangerous terrain (except to cavalry, monstrous cavalry, chariots and flyers ending or beginning their flying move within a forest).

Along with all of this, I'd like to ask where in the rules does it state anything close to what you are assuming? I'm reading the rules as they are, I'm not adding in a sentence of "Instead of just Chariot, Cav, MC", or "not just Chariot, Cav, MC".

If you wan't to prove you're right (or that I am indeed wrong), please reference in the rulebook where it states what you are saying.

It still does not state under the venom thicket (at all, in any way, whatsoever) that it is only for the benefit (detriment) of Infantry type models.

[NexS]

If you want to get pedantic, page 117 (which is referenced by the forests' page) says "when a model marches, charges, flees, overruns or pursues into or through an area of dangerous terrain, it is called upon to take a dangerous terrain test"

A dangerous terrain test. Singular. The difference is that it causes any model type to terrain test when moving (ie: not just when it marches, charges, flees, overruns or pursues, but any movement).

[Prince of Spires]

I'm with NexS here. Just being dangerous terrain would mean that you would only test when marching, fleeing, pursuing and overrunning. VT extends that to also include walking normally.

Forcing you to take a dangerous terrain test = being dangerous terrain for you.

It should also be noted that the DTT rule for forests you mentioned is actually unnecessary and just a reminder of the general DT rule. After all, DT already specifically mentions that if something is terrain (which a forest is) then Cav, MC and chariots have to take the DTT. It's not a special rule to do with forests at all, just a repetition of the general DT rule.

Rod

[Asurion Whitestar]

If you want to get pedantic, page 117 (which is referenced by the forests' page) says "when a model marches, charges, flees, overruns or pursues into or through an area of dangerous terrain, it is called upon to take a dangerous terrain test"

A dangerous terrain test. Singular. The difference is that it causes any model type to terrain test when moving (ie: not just when it marches, charges, flees, overruns or pursues, but any movement).

You seem to be overlooking a fairly substantial piece of information here, being that the Venom Thicket ISN'T DANGEROUS TERRAIN (with the exception of mounted models), to which you are referring. It clearly indicates that you need to take a dangerous terrain test if you move through it.

I believe you have your wires crossed here.
I am simply reading the rules as they are, and trying to help other understand it as well.
I am not emphasising anything within the rules, neither am I adding my own translation or interpretation, as others seem to be doing.

The rule is, as it states; "Any model moving through a venom thicket must take a dangerous terrain test".
It is NOT:
A venom thicket is dangerous terrain, and causes models to test if they move through it at all, not just from charging, fleeing, pursuing or marching.
Nor is it:
A venom thicket causes any model, not just cavalry, monstrous cavalry or chariots to test for dangerous terrain, when moving through it at all, not just from charging, fleeing, pursuing or marching.

The A dangerous terrain test clearly doesn't indicate for you to take multiple DTTs for a single piece of DT. To which I am not refuting at all.
I have NEVER once stated that this is the case, nor that the VT is DT except to mounted models.
I know and understand that a model can and only ever will take a SINGLE dangerous terrain test for running through dangerous terrain.

The point I am trying to get across here is that a venom thicket causes you to take a dangerous terrain test, not that it is dangerous terrain..!
Do you understand the difference?


Rules are clear:
Forest = dangerous terrain to mounted models.
Correct?

A Venom Thicket is a special type of forest, just like an Abyssal Wood, a Blood Forest, a Fungus Forest, or Wildwood, they have additional rules, just like every other piece of non-mundane terrain, including different Hills, Marshland, Obstacles, Mysterious Rivers, Mystic Monuments and Arcane Architecture.
Correct?

The additional rules for Forests and indeed every type of non-mundane terrain from the list above, do not replace the rules for the normal terrain piece of its type.
Correct?

Therefore, you use the rules for each type of terrain piece as it is written. Without changing the words or adding them, without any emphasis etc.
Correct?
(If you don't, then you're playing a version of house rules, which is absolutely fine, but I'm talking about the actual rules presented in the rulebook)

So, providing that you are not playing with "house rules".
A Venom Thicket does what?
As it is written: you must take a dangerous terrain test for any model moving through it.
Correct?

"Any model" is not exclusive, it is inclusive of which by definition, includes every model and every troop type.
Correct?

So for any and every troop type, any and every model moving through the Venom Thicket (without running) needs to take a DTT, from its special rules, which go as far as to spell it out for you, that the models are fending off the venomous critters within the Venom Thicket.
Correct?

Remembering that the Venom Thicket IS NOT dangerous terrain, except to mounted models.
A mounted model/unit moves normally through the VT and each model has to take a DTT because of its special rules and not because it is dangerous terrain, because they are not Running.

The same said unit/model then runs through the VT, activating the dangerous terrain element of the rules, causing them to take a DTT from the dangerous terrain, which is the forest itself under the Dangerous Terrain rules on page 117 (the dangerous terrain test for dangerous terrain represents the model/s ducking or weaving their way through the hazardous/dangerous terrain feature/piece, ie: failing to duck under a low branch, tripping on a tree root, riding into a boulder).

They obviously only take a single test from each and every piece of dangerous terrain, which is the venom thicket (becuase it is a forest, not because it is dangerous terrain to all models), which has special rules that make you take a DTT regardless of what type of model is moving through it.

Ergo; you take a single DTT for the piece of dangerous terrain you are running through, the venom thicket, because it is a forest.
Then a second, for/from the special rule element of the venom thicket.

To say again.
The Venom Thicket is a Forest.
The Venom Thicket is also a Venom Thicket (having a special rule that makes you take a dangerous terrain test for moving through it).


I'm only following the rules..

[Asurion Whitestar]

I'm with NexS here. Just being dangerous terrain would mean that you would only test when marching, fleeing, pursuing and overrunning. VT extends that to also include walking normally.

Forcing you to take a dangerous terrain test = being dangerous terrain for you.

It should also be noted that the DTT rule for forests you mentioned is actually unnecessary and just a reminder of the general DT rule. After all, DT already specifically mentions that if something is terrain (which a forest is) then Cav, MC and chariots have to take the DTT. It's not a special rule to do with forests at all, just a repetition of the general DT rule.

Rod

Exactly on mark for the forest vs the DT rules. Just a reminder.

If I could ask though, how are you getting the impression or the general idea in its simplest form that the VT extends the DTTs to include moving normally?
The rules don't say or imply that at all, otherwise they would simply state, exactly that. That the VT counts as DT to all models and that they must test if and when they move normally through it.

I think this is where most of the confusion lies.
That the reading of the rules for it somehow relate back to a normal DTT. They don't say that at all.

In fact a good example would be the KHEMRIAN QUICKSAND on page 121.
A monster, monstrous infantry or monstrous cavalry model that fails its dangerous terrain test for Khemrian Quicksand is removed as a casualty with no saves of any kind allowed.

This is a reference to the DTT that you need to take, because of Marshland being dangerous terrain.

If the VT is referencing DTT it is doing a horrible job.

I'm looking at every other reference possible to be as clear and as correct as possible.
The Venom Thicket is not referencing anything, otherwise it would be written as such.

EDIT:
Even the rules are written to support them.
When you take a dangerous terrain test for running through a forest, you are dodging the stationary trees, branches, stumps, roots etc.
When you are taking a dangerous terrain test for moving through a Venom Thicket, you are fending off the venomous critters that are attacking you.

One test for trees, one test for creatures.

[SpellArcher]

I would suggest putting your arguments to the TO before your next event Asurion and getting a clear ruling so everyone knows before any games are played.

He may or may not agree with you but at least everyone knows the score.

[Asurion Whitestar]

Thanks SA, That's exactly what I and my tournie going posse (pretty much just me bro at the moment) plan on doing, or getting them to update their ruling/s before we start. They have a nice little players pack that includes funky rule decisions.

[Kes-Elrin]

If you want to get pedantic, page 117 (which is referenced by the forests' page) says "when a model marches, charges, flees, overruns or pursues into or through an area of dangerous terrain, it is called upon to take a dangerous terrain test"

A dangerous terrain test. Singular. The difference is that it causes any model type to terrain test when moving (ie: not just when it marches, charges, flees, overruns or pursues, but any movement).

+1 to this.

Without looking at the posts too deeply, it seems that the OP is over-thinking this.

Venom Thicket is an exception to the way DT tests are normally handled w.r.t. forests, i.e. ALL models take DT tests regardless of troop type (and White Lions get the benefit of their Forest Strider ability for once) and have to take them even if moving normally. Only one check is made, though.

[Asurion Whitestar]

If I may dissect the points you have made.

Without looking at the posts too deeply, it seems that the OP is over-thinking this.

Venom Thicket is an exception to the way DT tests are normally handled w.r.t. forests, i.e. ALL models take DT tests regardless of troop type (and White Lions get the benefit of their Forest Strider ability for once) and have to take them even if moving normally. Only one check is made, though. Again, what rules say this?, Dangerous Terrain causes you to take a DTT from it, only one. The special rules for the Venom Thicket cause you to take a DTT from it, you take a single test for running through a piece of DT as per the dangerous terrain rules on p 117, the additional rules listed under a venom thicket on page 119 cause you to take a test because it is a special forest, with venomous creatures in it.

You might want to have a closer look at the posts and the rules, I reference everything to prove that I am correct.
Could you tell me what w.r.t. means?

I think everyone is under-thinking this and taking the rules out of context.
You should be reading the rules EXACTLY as they are written, and not adding in interpretations, mixing them with other rules or adding emphasis to certain words, which is what seems to be happening.

I have noticed that no-one has actually referenced anything contrary to my point, just taking things out of context and emphasising words within the rules, or giving their own interpretation. The rules are written without emphasis, so don't need emphasising. The rules are written very clearly, and don't need interpretation. They don't refer to other troop types or other models or state anything to give any validation to the rebuttal.

There would be more refutable evidence if there was any. But more importantly there would be no argument from me at all if I was incorrect, as I am just following the rules as written and as described and as intended.

Can anyone give any evidence that I am wrong?

Challenges seem to be pretty popular at the moment, so I issue a challenge to anyone to prove me wrong.
Good Luck. :3

EDIT:
Also, thanks to everyone whom have taken the time to reply and give their input, whether for or against. Thanks for trying to understand the rules clearer, or trying to prove me wrong ;3. Or just for indulging me and my ramblings about how the rules actually are.

[Kes-Elrin]

w.r.t.= with respect to

[Asurion Whitestar]

w.r.t.= with respect to

Why thank you.

[NexS]

If you want to get pedantic, page 117 (which is referenced by the forests' page) says "when a model marches, charges, flees, overruns or pursues into or through an area of dangerous terrain, it is called upon to take a dangerous terrain test"

A dangerous terrain test. Singular. The difference is that it causes any model type to terrain test when moving (ie: not just when it marches, charges, flees, overruns or pursues, but any movement).

You seem to be overlooking a fairly substantial piece of information here, being that the Venom Thicket ISN'T DANGEROUS TERRAIN (with the exception of mounted models), to which you are referring. It clearly indicates that you need to take a dangerous terrain test if you move through it.

I believe you have your wires crossed here.
I am simply reading the rules as they are, and trying to help other understand it as well.
I am not emphasising anything within the rules, neither am I adding my own translation or interpretation, as others seem to be doing.

The rule is, as it states; "Any model moving through a venom thicket must take a dangerous terrain test".
It is NOT:
A venom thicket is dangerous terrain, and causes models to test if they move through it at all, not just from charging, fleeing, pursuing or marching.
Nor is it:
A venom thicket causes any model, not just cavalry, monstrous cavalry or chariots to test for dangerous terrain, when moving through it at all, not just from charging, fleeing, pursuing or marching.

The A dangerous terrain test clearly doesn't indicate for you to take multiple DTTs for a single piece of DT. To which I am not refuting at all.
I have NEVER once stated that this is the case, nor that the VT is DT except to mounted models.
I know and understand that a model can and only ever will take a SINGLE dangerous terrain test for running through dangerous terrain.

The point I am trying to get across here is that a venom thicket causes you to take a dangerous terrain test, not that it is dangerous terrain..!
Do you understand the difference?


Rules are clear:
Forest = dangerous terrain to mounted models.
Correct?

A Venom Thicket is a special type of forest, just like an Abyssal Wood, a Blood Forest, a Fungus Forest, or Wildwood, they have additional rules, just like every other piece of non-mundane terrain, including different Hills, Marshland, Obstacles, Mysterious Rivers, Mystic Monuments and Arcane Architecture.
Correct?

The additional rules for Forests and indeed every type of non-mundane terrain from the list above, do not replace the rules for the normal terrain piece of its type.
Correct?

Therefore, you use the rules for each type of terrain piece as it is written. Without changing the words or adding them, without any emphasis etc.
Correct?
(If you don't, then you're playing a version of house rules, which is absolutely fine, but I'm talking about the actual rules presented in the rulebook)

So, providing that you are not playing with "house rules".
A Venom Thicket does what?
As it is written: you must take a dangerous terrain test for any model moving through it.
Correct?

"Any model" is not exclusive, it is inclusive of which by definition, includes every model and every troop type.
Correct?

So for any and every troop type, any and every model moving through the Venom Thicket (without running) needs to take a DTT, from its special rules, which go as far as to spell it out for you, that the models are fending off the venomous critters within the Venom Thicket.
Correct?

Remembering that the Venom Thicket IS NOT dangerous terrain, except to mounted models.
A mounted model/unit moves normally through the VT and each model has to take a DTT because of its special rules and not because it is dangerous terrain, because they are not Running.

The same said unit/model then runs through the VT, activating the dangerous terrain element of the rules, causing them to take a DTT from the dangerous terrain, which is the forest itself under the Dangerous Terrain rules on page 117 (the dangerous terrain test for dangerous terrain represents the model/s ducking or weaving their way through the hazardous/dangerous terrain feature/piece, ie: failing to duck under a low branch, tripping on a tree root, riding into a boulder).

They obviously only take a single test from each and every piece of dangerous terrain, which is the venom thicket (becuase it is a forest, not because it is dangerous terrain to all models), which has special rules that make you take a DTT regardless of what type of model is moving through it.

Ergo; you take a single DTT for the piece of dangerous terrain you are running through, the venom thicket, because it is a forest.
Then a second, for/from the special rule element of the venom thicket.

To say again.
The Venom Thicket is a Forest.
The Venom Thicket is also a Venom Thicket (having a special rule that makes you take a dangerous terrain test for moving through it).


I'm only following the rules..

Sorry for the slack timeliness of responding to this.

You agree that only a single dangerous terrain test can be taken from any terrain piece, so you've answered your own question. Using your formula from above:

running through Dangerous Terrain = a dangerous terrain test
forest = dangerous terrain for cavalry and chariots
any movement through venom thicket = a dangerous terrain test
Venom thicket = test for all models

dangerous terrain tests <= 1
Therefore venom thicket causes 1 dangerous terrain test.

If you want to dispute it at a tournament, I think you'll find that you'll receive no sportsmanship points for that match. If you were playing against me, I'd let it though for the sake of getting on with the game.

[Asurion Whitestar]

Thanks for the reply NexS.

I agree that only a single DTT is taken for a single piece of Dangerous Terrain, not a single piece of terrain.

I've brought this issue up with everyone I battled at tournaments and the TO and I've always received full sports points.
The point was actually made by the TO that because I get poisoned attacks in the VT that the ruling was to only cause a single test. As I was right and proved the point to the TO.
I accepted it of course, but I do believe he forgot that any model in the VT gets poisoned attacks, and not just me. Because that's actually a fair fight within the confines of a Venom Thicket.

[NexS]

See, "A piece of dangerous terrain" isn't exactly a correct sentence is warhammer terms. You have a piece of terrain (physical piece) which may be "dangerous terrain" (metaphorical piece) for certain models.

Bending the rules isn't really sportsmanlike. It would be like giving my Slann the piranha blade and arguing that magical attacks caused by him also cause D3 wounds. Which is technically correct, as it states precisely that the model with the weapon gains the rule Multiple Wounds (D3), it's just not good form.
But if your opponents don't mind, then there's no real issue.

[Asurion Whitestar]

Well as myself and gaming group see DT as being an added rule to "normal" terrain, it is the rules. No rule bending required.
Just because a piece of terrain is dangerous terrain to some troop types, doesn't change the fact that the piece of terrain's rules aren't being replaced, nor is its definition changing to that of only Dangerous Terrain.
Dangerous terrain is a type of terrain that works in tandem or symbiotically with the normal rules for said terrain piece.