Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

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NexS
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#31 Post by NexS »

If you're happy with it, that's fine. As long as you're aware that the majority of the gaming community here disagrees with your reasoning and thinks you have come to a false conclusion.

I will never play it in that way of my own accord. :) I hope it kills many enemy knights so as to make all your point dispute time worthwhile haha
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#32 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

NexS wrote:If you're happy with it, that's fine. As long as you're aware that the majority of the gaming community here disagrees with your reasoning and thinks you have come to a false conclusion.
And I them. :3
I will never play it in that way of my own accord. :) I hope it kills many enemy knights so as to make all your point dispute time worthwhile haha
Oh it does indeed, at least within my group. :P :lol:
Of course no many have ever seen the VT as anything other than special dangerous terrain. Except those that read the rules as they are written and those that see it instantly as I do, but then again those people normally don't have any mounted models so don't have any worries.
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#33 Post by NexS »

Yeah, I think it's more about intent. I think the intent of the VT was as we all see it, rather than your description. I have been bitten by wording vs. intent before and it's terribly annoying. Ie: My beloved lizards and The Engine of the Gods/Lord Kroak magic spells - Hits all enemies withing X'' rule. Because they're technically Direct Damage spells, they're automatically reduced to forward-arc only. Which is only 25% of all enemies within X".
Sigh.
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#34 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

Yep, I could be wrong myself about the intent. Although why would you go to the trouble of wording it the way it is instead of how everyone else sees it?

To be fair though, remember that army books supersede the Rulebook, especially when the Rulebook states so.
P.31 CHOOSING A TARGET
...
However, unless stated otherwise the following rules apply:
(Which include the forward arc).

On the same page for Direct Damage spells; they don't say that they need to be in the forward arc.
So you use the previously covered rules on p.31.

The Army Book tells you it targets all units with x range (4D6 for EotG and 12/18/24 for Kroak's Itza (It's A) Delivery spell).

Sorry to be the bearer of good news, but unless there's a FAQ telling you you can't, you do in fact target every model in range as the spell describes. Because the Rulebook tells you to do so.. :3
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#35 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

Are you now double checking the Rule Book and Lizzies book to make sure?? :P
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#36 Post by NexS »

Unfortunately, the table in the back of the BRB says:
TYPE
Lie within forward arc?
DIRECT DAMAGE
Y
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#37 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

That's the summary of the rules, not the actual rules.
You use the SUMMARY for quick references, the rules always come from the relevant sections within the Rule Book.
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#38 Post by NexS »

Fair enough. I'm not sure how that would hold up in a tourney, but it can't hurt to ask the question I suppose.
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#39 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

Well, the actual rules for Direct Damage spells don't say you need front arcage, the rules for front arcage are for all spells unless stated otherwise.

As the Lizzy spells state "all units in range" you don't use the front arcage rule. If the spell stated target one unit or all units in the casters front arc.

The wording of "all units in range" covers the frontal arc rule.
I could be wrong though, and some could say the wording is specific to the wording of including "front arc" to supplement the front arc rule. That is the same over-amplified reading into that people use to emphasise certain points they want to make.
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#40 Post by Grenic »

Interesting debate about the need to take one or more than one Dangerous Terrain Tests.

Almost sounds like a version of the Special Rules can’t stack debate…

How would the two fractions see the following?
- Unit of Dragon Princes are in a Boiling Flood;
- A Venom Thicket abuts the Boiling Flood;
- Opponent’s injured General is alone in the Venom Thicket;
- Opponent’s Beast Wizard casts Net of Amyntok on the Dragon Princes;
- The Dragon Princes charge the General;
- The General flees 8”, exits the Venom Thicket (taking no wounds), and is still within the Dragon Princes' charge range;
- The Dragon Princes’ direct path to the General is out of the Boiling Flood & through the Venom Thicket; and
- There are no redirection options.

So, how many Dangerous Terrain Tests will the Dragon Princes have to take and on what rolls would they take a wound?
Last edited by Grenic on Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#41 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

Grenic wrote:Interesting debate about the need to take one or more than one Dangerous Terrain Tests.

Almost sounds like a version of the Special Rules can’t stack debate…

How would the two fractions see the following?
- Unit of Dragon Princes are in a Boiling Flood;
- A Venom Thicket abuts the Boiling Flood;
- Opponent’s injured General is alone in the Venom Thicket;
- Opponent’s Light Wizard casts Net of Amyntok on the Dragon Princes;
- The Dragon Princes charge the General;
- The General flees 8”, exits the Venom Thicket (taking no wounds), and is still within the Dragon Princes' charge range;
- The Dragon Princes’ direct path to the General is out of the Boiling Flood & through the Venom Thicket; and
- There are no redirection options.

So, how many Dangerous Terrain Tests will the Dragon Princes have to take and on what rolls would they take a wound?
Thanks for replying Grenic. :3

Do you mean the Curse of Anraheir Beasts spell? As Light of Net only makes the unit take a S test to move.
So without the effects of (any) spells this is how I'd play it (how it is :3).

-The Dragon Princes (declare a) charge (against) the general out of the Boiling Flood (they take a test for DT from the river).
-The Dragon Princes then move into the VT to catch the fleeing General on the other side, because they are charging through a Forest which is DT to them, they take a DT test. Because the forest is also a VT, they take a test for moving through it.

3 DTTs in total for the Dragon Princes, only failing on 1s as is normal with normal DTTs.
If they were under the effects of Curse, they would take an additional 2 DTTs (5 total) as the areas of open ground inbetween the river and forest are DT as is the area after the forest, they would also fail on 1s & 2s from the effects of the spell.
As the forest and river are already DT, the spell has no effect on them apart from the increased chances of failing (1s & 2s).

On the opposing side, the number of DTTs for the Dragon Princes would be 2.
One for the River.
One for the Forest.
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#42 Post by pk-ng »

Asurion Whitestar wrote:Well, the actual rules for Direct Damage spells don't say you need front arcage, the rules for front arcage are for all spells unless stated otherwise.

As the Lizzy spells state "all units in range" you don't use the front arcage rule. If the spell stated target one unit or all units in the casters front arc.

The wording of "all units in range" covers the frontal arc rule.
I could be wrong though, and some could say the wording is specific to the wording of including "front arc" to supplement the front arc rule. That is the same over-amplified reading into that people use to emphasise certain points they want to make.
Actually DD needs front "arcage" so this statement is false.
The problem with EotG rules so say all units within X" but it is a DD which means all units within the front arc is only affected.
But some comp system has ruled differently (i.e ETC).
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#43 Post by NexS »

Asurion Whitestar wrote: On the opposing side, the number of DTTs for the Dragon Princes would be 2.
One for the River.
One for the Forest.
(EDIT: I realised i was talking about the spell, and you weren't haha)
Now this one is a bit more curly... The curse of aranheir states that all terrain is dangerous terrain. That could be interpreted in a few ways:
1. There is no differentiation between different terrain types because ALL terrain is equally dangerous, and therefore only 1 test is made (fail on 1-2)
2. Test for dangerous river, dangerous open ground, dangerous forest, dangerous open ground, therefore 4 tests (fail on 1-2)
3. (AW, your interpretation) Test for dangerous river, dangerous open ground, dangerous forest, venom, dangerous open ground, therefore 5 tests (fail on 1-2 on all because of the curse)


Honestly, I'm torn between 1 and 2 but think it's probably fairer to go with 2.


@pk-ng:
AW does have a point though, the book clearly says "targets all units within (12"/18"/24"/4D6")", which tells you exactly. But i've been biting the bullet anyway and pointing my models at what I want to die. Save the argument.
Same can be said for Tempest. It's a DD which says to place the template anywhere within 30" of the caster. Do you only place it in the forward arc? And same with with vortexes?
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#44 Post by Grenic »

Asurion Whitestar wrote:Yep, I could be wrong myself about the intent. Although why would you go to the trouble of wording it the way it is instead of how everyone else sees it?

To be fair though, remember that army books supersede the Rulebook, especially when the Rulebook states so.
P.31 CHOOSING A TARGET
...
However, unless stated otherwise the following rules apply:
(Which include the forward arc).

On the same page for Direct Damage spells; they don't say that they need to be in the forward arc.
So you use the previously covered rules on p.31.

The Army Book tells you it targets all units with x range (4D6 for EotG and 12/18/24 for Kroak's Itza (It's A) Delivery spell).

Sorry to be the bearer of good news, but unless there's a FAQ telling you you can't, you do in fact target every model in range as the spell describes. Because the Rulebook tells you to do so.. :3
I’m not on the same page as you are here.

The rules on page 31 speak to several things including that a spell must be targeted at a single unit in each case and that the range of the spell is known. The EotG simply modifies these rules to read:
- “all units” must lie within the “EotG’s” forward arc;
- the “EotG’s” does not need line of sight to “all units”
- “all units” must lie within the spell’s “rolled” range
- “the EotG’s” cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat.

I don’t recall there being a specific line in the EotG’s rules indicating that it overruled the forward arc limitation. Simply saying “all units” is just telling us that the spell does not need to be aimed at a single target unit and instead affects all units within range. Of course this is still the forward arc as I don’t think the rule modified that aspect nor did it override the “can’t target units in combat” bit.
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#45 Post by NexS »

The difference is that the the spell doesn't say "direct damage with a range of x", it says "Direct damage that hits all units within x".
In any case, i've given up worrying about it. Normally i'd say "wait for a FAQ", but clearly GW are far too busy trying to change the rules to bother supporting things they've released in the past 12+months.
Oh well.
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#46 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

Grenic wrote:
Asurion Whitestar wrote:Yep, I could be wrong myself about the intent. Although why would you go to the trouble of wording it the way it is instead of how everyone else sees it?

To be fair though, remember that army books supersede the Rulebook, especially when the Rulebook states so.
P.31 CHOOSING A TARGET
...
However, unless stated otherwise the following rules apply:
(Which include the forward arc).

On the same page for Direct Damage spells; they don't say that they need to be in the forward arc.
So you use the previously covered rules on p.31.

The Army Book tells you it targets all units with x range (4D6 for EotG and 12/18/24 for Kroak's Itza (It's A) Delivery spell).

Sorry to be the bearer of good news, but unless there's a FAQ telling you you can't, you do in fact target every model in range as the spell describes. Because the Rulebook tells you to do so.. :3
I’m not on the same page as you are here.

The rules on page 31 speak to several things including that a spell must be targeted at a single unit in each case and that the range of the spell is known. The EotG simply modifies these rules to read:
- “all units” must lie within the “EotG’s” forward arc;
- the “EotG’s” does not need line of sight to “all units”
- “all units” must lie within the spell’s “rolled” range
- “the EotG’s” cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat.

I don’t recall there being a specific line in the EotG’s rules indicating that it overruled the forward arc limitation. Simply saying “all units” is just telling us that the spell does not need to be aimed at a single target unit and instead affects all units within range. Of course this is still the forward arc as I don’t think the rule modified that aspect nor did it override the “can’t target units in combat” bit.
The rule wording in question is "All units within range", not just "all units"..
As I said earlier: the rules aren't written in the way/s you state them above.
The rules should be read how they are actually written, they are not open to interpretation.

I've highlighted the obvious rule you are overlooking in my quote.
I would go into more detail about why you are wrong, but I've already covered the same debate already within this thread. I know English is a hard language but it isn't that hard to read something as what it is. The rules aren't written in rhymes or riddles, why add in what you think it means? What the rule means is what it says...

Edit:
If the spell was meant to mean that it targets more than one unit (all units) in the front arc, it would read:
This spell is a Direct Damage spell that targets all units the caster can see and within range.
Or something very similar.

Simply stating "all units within range" is inclusive of ,a) all units and ,b) within x range.
It doesn't mean ,c) all units within x range that also lie in the front arc/or what the model can see.
Last edited by Asurion Whitestar on Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#47 Post by NexS »

AW, what are your thoughts on vortexes and DD template spells?
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#48 Post by Grenic »

@Asurion Whitestar, so by your logic as all it says is "all units within range" you should be also able to hit units in combat?

The bottom line for me is that for a waiver to a known restriction to exist it must be specifically noted in the rule granting the waiver. Just because a rule is silent on a known restriction should not be construed as a granting the waiver.

In this case the rule would need to say something along the lines of “…all units within range and they need not lie in the forward arc…”. As it does not, there is no waiver.
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#49 Post by NexS »

Grenic wrote: The bottom line for me is that for a waiver to a known restriction to exist it must be specifically noted in the rule granting the waiver. Just because a rule is silent on a known restriction should not be construed as a permissive waiver.

In this case the rule would need to say something along the lines of “…all units within range and they need not lie in the forward arc…”. As it does not, there is no waiver.
This is how many others perceive it also. I'm not fussed - I'll find other ways to kill things i want to be dead. It is just disappointing because it reduces the model's effectiveness by 75%.
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#50 Post by Grenic »

NexS wrote:It is just disappointing because it reduces the model's effectiveness by 75%.
True enough. Now if it had been only been a hex….
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#51 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

NexS wrote:AW, what are your thoughts on vortexes and DD template spells?
The Direct Damage template spells and Magical Vortices are pretty simple, spells like Flame Storm and Pit of Shades state "anywhere within X range" so don't use front arc, they go anywhere. Magical Vortices are always placed in contact with the caster's base and the centre of the template needs to be in the front arc, so they don't really need any explanation.
Grenic wrote:@Asurion Whitestar, so by your logic as all it says is "all units within range" you should be also able to hit units in combat?


The answer is No, the spell doesn't say it can be cast into combat.
I see where you are going but your reasoning is faulted on your original understanding of the written rule/s being wrong.
The front arc rule is negated by the word "All". I shouldn't need to explain meanings of English words but.. The word 'All' (no matter the context) is inclusive, it means the whole number/quantity of any given object or group of objects or things.


The bottom line for me is that for a waiver to a known restriction to exist it must be specifically noted in the rule granting the waiver. Just because a rule is silent on a known restriction should not be construed as a granting the waiver.

Please refer above.

In this case the rule would need to say something along the lines of “…all units within range and they need not lie in the forward arc…”. As it does not, there is no waiver.

See 6 lines above. :3
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Re: Venom Thickets and Dangerous Terrain tests.

#52 Post by Prince of Spires »

Asurion Whitestar wrote:
Grenic wrote:@Asurion Whitestar, so by your logic as all it says is "all units within range" you should be also able to hit units in combat?


The answer is No, the spell doesn't say it can be cast into combat.
I see where you are going but your reasoning is faulted on your original understanding of the written rule/s being wrong.
The front arc rule is negated by the word "All". I shouldn't need to explain meanings of English words but.. The word 'All' (no matter the context) is inclusive, it means the whole number/quantity of any given object or group of objects or things.
Here you are contradicting yourself.

If 'All' in this context needs to be taken as every single enemy unit in range, regardless of limitations placed by the type of spell it is, then targeting a unit in combat is no different from targeting a unit outside of the front arc. Both are limitations placed by the general spell rules. There is no difference between one and the other. So if you can do one, you can also do the other.

And then you answer the question. The spell doens't say it can be cast into combat so it can't. The spell also doesn't say it can be cast outside of the front arc, so it can't.

Same logic, same conclusion.

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