Multiple Flamespyre Phoenixes

[Axiem]

Here's a question I came across while thinking about different lists based on ETC feedback and idea-storming for the new Nagash expansion. I can't seem to find a consensus, so I pose it to you!

If you have multiple Flamespyre Phoenixes (3 lets say) which all move three units (a,b,c) how do you resolve the hits?

The way I see it, there are two options:

i. The Flamespyres all happen at the end of the Remaining Moves sub-phase, meaning if all three Phoenixes move over units a, b, c they can't cherry pick where the hits are going. They all declare their target (either the same or different: a,a,a; a,b,b; etc.) then you roll for damage. This can result in damage being lost due to a unit dying before a second or third Phoenix resolves his Wake of Fire.

ii. The Flamesypres all happen immediately, during the Remaining Moves sub-phase, but at the time of movement, meaning if all three Phoenixes move over units a, b, c they can cherry pick where the hits are going (by deciding where the damage should go after the previous damage has been resolved). If you fly over units a, b, c you can resolve one or more Phoenixes against any unit passed over, before deciding to resolve any other Phoenixes against the same or different target. This means you cannot lose damage due to a unit dying, providing you fly over more than one unit(s) and those units aren't removed before moving the final Phoenix.

Here's the exact wording for reference:

"If a Flamespyre Phoenix moves over one or more unengaged enemy units in the Remaining Moves sub-phase, choose one of those units - that unit suffers D6 Strength 4 hits, plus an additional D3 hits per rank after the first. These hits have the Flaming Attacks special rule."

This seems to support i. above, specifically where the comma placement is in the first sentence. It does not say, for instance "If a Flamespyre Phoenix moves over one or more unengaged enemy units, in the Remaining Moves sub-phase choose one of those units..."

There's also the argument that says there's a similar issue in the Shooting Phase where if you shoot your unit, including characters with extra (stronger) shots, at another unit, they resolve at the same time, rather than shooting regular shooters first, killing below LoS range for instance, and they firing the character's weapon.

I don't mind either ruling, there are strengths to each, I'd just like to know what people's consensus is.

Thoughts?

Axiem

[John Rainbow]

I think the number of views and lack of posts is somewhat indicative of 2 things:

1. It isn't clear
2. How often it actually matters

This is not to say that it isn't an important issue, I just mean that it will rarely (if ever) actually come up in a game. I imagine it might be an even rarer situation still where these attacks will cause a problem for the player in that the unit is destroyed before all the 'Wake of Fire' hits are resolved - this is the issue I think you are driving at?

For me at least, I read it as saying the following: you move your phoenix, if it moves over an enemy unit resolve some hits against them. Then proceed onto moving your next unit(s). I would therefore resolve the hits immediately in any game I played. I can't imagine this being a problem in my gaming circle/meta. I'm not sure how the ETC or others would feel about it.

[Prince of Spires]

I agree with John. For me, there is a direct correlation between the move and the hits. The rule reads roughly: move unit, if you move over a unit, it deals hits. The hits are part of the move and thus resolved as part of the move. There is nothing in its rules that suggests they are dealt at a different time. It's a simple "if A happens, do B"

Rod

[Axiem]

This is not to say that it isn't an important issue, I just mean that it will rarely (if ever) actually come up in a game. I imagine it might be an even rarer situation still where these attacks will cause a problem for the player in that the unit is destroyed before all the 'Wake of Fire' hits are resolved - this is the issue I think you are driving at?

I agree with John. For me, there is a direct correlation between the move and the hits. The rule reads roughly: move unit, if you move over a unit, it deals hits. The hits are part of the move and thus resolved as part of the move. There is nothing in its rules that suggests they are dealt at a different time. It's a simple "if A happens, do B"

You are of course, correct John: it isn't something that is likely to come up, at least not in "normal" play simply because the number of Flamespyres present in most armies (mainly zero to recently, one). However it does make quite a big difference if you are taking multiple. Not only does this potentially change how much damage can be done (based on ranks) it can cause issues in other circumstances.

For instance, If I fly over 5-10+ Skirmishers in 2+ Ranks who are sheltering a Wizard, if I roll decently well with the first Wake of Fire, any subsequent applications can start hitting the character. This feels kind of weird for something that is suppose to be taking place all at the same time. The real problem is it doesn't tell you when to resolve the hits, which it should, only telling you if you can or not.

Like I said, I don't have a problem playing it either way, and I think this is likely the most straightforward approach. It does however open the door to tactical finagling, like what I've outlined above. Hence, the interpretation of a simpler version that takes place all at one time: i. in my original post above.

The reason for this topic in the first place is because I think the Flamespyre could start seeing a lot more play, not only given Furion's results but the addition of the Nagash campaign where I'm expecting zombies in droves to be an option. We'll have to see!

Appreciate the input! Thanks!

Axiem

[Aicanor]

This feels kind of weird for something that is suppose to be taking place all at the same time.

But why should it be taking place simultaneously? It happens in the same subphase. But the player can choose the order of units moving - same thing with charging order in multiple charge. I would say both should follow the same mechanic.

[Axiem]

But why should it be taking place simultaneously? It happens in the same subphase. But the player can choose the order of units moving - same thing with charging order in multiple charge. I would say both should follow the same mechanic.

Because the damage doesn't take place immediately when you move (RAW) and there isn't any reference as to when the damage is suppose to take place. The wording is that it takes place sometime after, although still in the Remaining Moves Sub-Phase, especially when you compare it to how the wording of other Movement-Phase damage-dealers are written.

Ultimately, it's just unclear but I think the simplest implementation is to have them deal damage as they fly. It does open up tactical finagling however, as I've pointed out.

Axiem