Models wih Random Movement charging
Models wih Random Movement charging
I don't know how players in other countries handle this issue, but this one came up lately in nearby gaming club.
The pictures show the argument of those who think it is counted as charging when model with random movement special rule
pivots and touches the enemy unit, which is just 1" away from the model in question.
In the pictures, the fast cavalry unit is placed 1" next to HPA so that HPA can only move straightforward.
This move is meant to exploit the '1" apart' rule. The HPA cannot pivot to move within 1" from the fast cavalry, so it cannot pivot.
However, some players believe that HPA isn't prohibited from pivoting and entering within 1" of the fast cavalry, because random movement
models count as charging when they come into base contact with enemy models.
And in this case, the pivoting allow the HPA to contact the fast cavalry, and this pivot essentially turns into charge move.
Thus the HPA isn't violating the '1" apart rule' which doesn't apply to charging.
My counterargument is that Random Movement special rule section simplies that pivoting, which is done before moving random distance, doesn't count as charge move.
I interpreted so, because the rule states that the model with the rule counts as charged, if it contacts enemy unit's base after moving random distance(after pivoting)
Page 74 Random Movement 3rd Paragraph
"There's a chance that the model's peculiar movement will cause it to come into contact with an enemy, so measure the distance in a straight line before the model is moved.
If the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy, then it counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges and using the distance rolled as its charge range"
In addition, the last sentence of the quoted part above states that such charge move should be resolved using normal rules for charges.
In such case, the 'charge' move shown in the picture isn't legal because the HPA has no line of sight to fast cavalry from the beginning.
I also recall no rules allowing the charging model to show its flank to the enemy unit when the model charges.
So, do you find such interpretation(shown in the pictures) legal? If so, what are the reasons?
Are there any comp packs or tournaments which have similar or exact rulings like the example above?
Edit. Just uploaded the new pictures. Hope these help.
Last edited by Sinsigel on Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Models wih Random Movement charging
pictures don't seem to work?
You have to pivot to in the direction you are moving. So in order to "charge" you first need to pivot and then move to "charge". But since you come into the 1" radius (which you cannot as you're in the "compulsory move phase" and not the "charge phase") you therefore cannot "charge" a unit 1" next to you.
Charge / Charge phase = allows to move within 1"
Other movement phase = NOT allowed to move within 1" UNLESS you ROLL the dice to make it into a combat via random movement.
You have to pivot to in the direction you are moving. So in order to "charge" you first need to pivot and then move to "charge". But since you come into the 1" radius (which you cannot as you're in the "compulsory move phase" and not the "charge phase") you therefore cannot "charge" a unit 1" next to you.
Charge / Charge phase = allows to move within 1"
Other movement phase = NOT allowed to move within 1" UNLESS you ROLL the dice to make it into a combat via random movement.
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Re: Models wih Random Movement charging
The pivot taking the HPA into the fast cav is not a charge. The move with the fast cav is a standard "railroad" move. It ensures the HPA can only move straight forward.
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Re: Models wih Random Movement charging
I definitely think that that is not a successful charge. I have heard people who like their random movement toys claim that pretty much any movement (or pivot) that causes the random movement unit to touch an enemy counts a charge.
However, the rulebook clearly says that "If the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy, then it counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges and using the distance rolled as its charge range"
There is no way that you can complete a legal charge in the manner described above using "the normal rules for charging". I suppose if you count the model as charging (which is not the same as successfully completing a charge) then it might be a failed charge as per the normal rules for charging?
Virtual pivoting is one thing but these sorts of shenanigans are going way to far IMO.
However, the rulebook clearly says that "If the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy, then it counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges and using the distance rolled as its charge range"
There is no way that you can complete a legal charge in the manner described above using "the normal rules for charging". I suppose if you count the model as charging (which is not the same as successfully completing a charge) then it might be a failed charge as per the normal rules for charging?
Virtual pivoting is one thing but these sorts of shenanigans are going way to far IMO.
Re: Models wih Random Movement charging
I agree with everyone here. You can only break the 1" rule during the "moving chargers" sub-phase. Seeing that random movement is in the compulsory movement sub-phase, there ain't no 1" rule breaking to be done!
Regards,
Brad
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Re: Models wih Random Movement charging
Although I agree with everyone else, I do believe that using a move such as this as "exploiting" the rules goes against the spirit of the game, but then again, so is the HPA simply by being on the board.. :3
Re: Models wih Random Movement charging
I'd much rather fight a HPA than a giant....
Regards,
Brad
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Re: Models wih Random Movement charging
I don't think this is technically correct, as the movement of random movers takes place after the "moving chargers" sub-phase has been completed, in their own sub-phase. However they have their own allowance to break the rule and complete a charge- but only if the "move forwards" part of their move would have sent them into an enemy.NexS wrote:I agree with everyone here. You can only break the 1" rule during the "moving chargers" sub-phase. Seeing that random movement is in the compulsory movement sub-phase, there ain't no 1" rule breaking to be done!
So I guess what I'm saying is effectively I also agree with everyone here, and by the wording of the rules (if not exactly the spirit) then you can do this railroading and prevent a charge.
Re: Models wih Random Movement charging
No, it isn't a legal charge. However, certain comp systems allow the random movement model to execute a pivot-charge like this in order to prevent "railroading" manoeuvres. I don't believe I've heard anyone say that they believe the pivot-charge is actually legal within the normal ruleset; it's an extra rule added by comp packs, and allowance is made for fudging the charge move to get the models into base contact.
In my opinion, the pivot charge makes sense considering the spirit of the rules for random movement.
In my opinion, the pivot charge makes sense considering the spirit of the rules for random movement.
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Re: Models wih Random Movement charging
"Railroading" is a valid tactic. If you're bringing random movers (or deep units) you should have countermeasures ready.
Unless you play etc, then you can whine at the faq team and havegit your way.
Unless you play etc, then you can whine at the faq team and havegit your way.
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Re: Models wih Random Movement charging
I would check with your club/TO about this as it is a pretty well known issue that is not resolved in an FAQ or similar. I've played places that have used both the 'railroading' idea (i.e. that you cannot come within 1" and therefore cannot pivot and can only move in a straight line) and in tourneys that allow you to charge a unit that is blocking like this and just 'fudge it' so it seems reasonable.
Random movement is one of my most hated things in the game at the moment as it breaks so many rules. It needs an FAQ for this at the very least, either from GW or an agreement in your local scene.
Random movement is one of my most hated things in the game at the moment as it breaks so many rules. It needs an FAQ for this at the very least, either from GW or an agreement in your local scene.