Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

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Curu Olannon
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Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#1 Post by Curu Olannon »

In every game I play, when fast cav is concerned regardless of how they reform I measure the distance from my starting center to my ending center. If this is less or equal to double my movement and no model ends up moving over 2x M, then the move is considered legal. This is how everyone I know plays it and how every tournament I know of plays it (this includes tournaments in Norway, the UK, Sweden, Switzerland, Poland and Serbia).

Basically a reform does not count as moving. You do not measure distance you`ve moved during the reform at all, instead there is only 1 rule: when all reforms are done and the move is complete, no model can end up over 2x M from their starting point. In this thread (link: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 67#p874367) Rod argues that movement during the reform should be counted. I have never heard this being argued before, nor do I agree after re-reading the relevant rules now. It would make it very hard to evaluate fast cav movement as they often perform up to 3-4 reforms when they need to get in position.

Consider the following:

Image

The diagram to the left shows 3 units: The red blocks are enemy formations while the green block is a unit of Reavers. The way I`ve described above is shown here: the Reavers reform to a single file and move through the 3" gap in the enemy formations, reforming back to 5-wide once they`re through. Of course in-game I never bother with reforming them at all, I just measure end-to-end and move the entire unit. As long as no model has moved over 2x M, this is fine.

The diagram to the right shows the implications of Rod`s argument: after the Reavers have reformed to a single file, one model ends up being at least 4" away from the center of the unit, and thus (again, according to Rod`s argument) needs to spend 4" of his M18 to reform back to a single rank. In a nutshell, this reduces a fast cav unit`s move by at least 4" if they wish to reform to a single file, as they need to spend movement to get back to one rank instead of one file.

Relevant rule sections can be found on Page 14 and Page 68 in the BRB. As a reform is never described as movement in itself, I consider the 2x M clauses to concern the ending point of all models. This is probably to prevent huge units from basically reforming across the battlefield (think 100 Skavenslaves going from 5-wide to 100-wide and blocking pretty much an entire army for a turn for example), but I can`t see how this is meant to concern movement during the reform. Again, I have never heard this argued before either. Also, we have this from the last FAQ that was up:
BRB FAQ April `13 wrote: Q: When moving Fast Cavalry or Skirmishers, should I measure
from the location of each model before it moves and place it anywhere
within its Movement Allowance (or double its Movement Allowance
if it is marching) ? (p68, 77)

A: Yes. Except when there is a unit or impassable terrain in
the way, the distance moved must include the distance
required to move around these obstacles.
The issue that brought this up illustrates a case which many will consider abusing the rules: Assume 10 Hexwraiths are standing 30" away from a unit. They march up 16", then Vanhels is cast on them. You move them another 8", then you reform them to 2-wide. This earns you another 8" and 2 models are now in contact with the enemy unit. You keep reforming like this until the entire unit has touched the enemy. Unless you count the distance a model is pushed during a reform as movement, this is completely legal as no model is ever moved over 2x M, nor does anyone end up over 2x M from their starting position (at the end of the reform shenanigans you reform to 2x5, 8" away from the enemy unit).

The ETC FAQ has a (fairly) elegant solution to this situation, but not everyone plays ETC:
ETC FAQ wrote:Q: How do you measure the movement spent by Skirmishers or Fast Cavalry that makes an attack during its movement (Like Screamers, Terradons or Hexwraiths)?
A: Measure the distance each individual model moves, from its starting position to a position where it is over/through the target unit and then to its final, legal position. The total distance a model moved cannot go over its Movement value, or double that when marching. Free reforms cannot grant any extra Movement during the attack. Terradons and Screamers need only 1 model to clip the target unit for all to attack.
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Sinsigel
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#2 Post by Sinsigel »

Curu Olannon wrote:As a reform is never described as movement in itself, I consider the 2x M clauses to concern the ending point of all models.
[/quote]

This is the nucleus of the discussion, whereas Rod believes 'double movement' restriction includes every 'literal' movement of models
while Curu sees that the model ony has to be within 'double movement' distance from original distance if I understand correctly.
I can now clearly understand the point Curu olannon, but is there solid evidence to ensure the reform movement never counts as 'moving?'
I'm still perusing the rulebook but I can't seem to find it quickly now.

However, if we assume that reform never really is movement, can hexwraiths' Spectral Hunters rule come into play?
Would it not be seen as contradiction?
(Since the rule indicates unit of hexwraiths should move through enemy unit to have effect.)
In addition, IMHO the official FAQ Curu olannon has quoted can be interpreted in a way that reform movement does include
how models actually moved : otherwise, why would they bother counting how much models moved around obstacles/units,
if fast cavalry models only need to be within 'double movement' distance from the starting point?

For those of the members who aren't familiar with hexwraiths, below are their special rules(VC army book p. 47)
I'll edit my comments if posting pieces of rules is an infringement on GW copyrights.

Soulstriders
: Hexwraiths and Hellwraiths can move through unengaged units(whether friendly or enemy) during the Remaining Moves sub-phase,
but cannot end their movement within 1" of another unit

Spectral Hunters
: If a unit of Hexwraiths move through one or more unengaged enemy units in the Remaining Moves sub-phase, nominate one of these units.
That unit immediately suffers a Strength 5 hit per hexwraith(or hellwraith) that has passed through it, distributed as shooting attacks.
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#3 Post by Iluvatar »

I play Fast Cavalry just as you do: basically, I measure the movement of the center of the unit, and use this as base for the movement. Then, ensure that no model ends further than twice its movement from its starting position. Of course, measuring the movement of the center must take into account the 1' inch at every step of the movement, but usually it's quite simple.

The rule I would strongly challenge, however, is the reform part at the end of the movement: Hexwraiths can move through units, but they cannot reform through them. Fast cavalry grants them free reforms, but you should be able to make those reforms legally, and each model should finish its reform 1' away from other models (friendly and enemy). So you would need an actual movement, not a reform, to use their special attack...
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#4 Post by Nicene »

Mind=blown.

Our circle interpreted the rule the same way Rod did, but you have totally convinced me otherwise. This makes reavers a lot easier to use; thank you!
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#5 Post by gaz »

To me, the FAQ entry indicates that you are meant to determine the range of each individual fast cav model and then place each of the models within its own range of movement and so that the individual models form a legal formation for the unit as a whole.

Image

To clarify, if the pink model is to move from the lower location to the upper location then I think that the purple line can't be longer than 2X the pink model's movement.
I think it's not sufficient that the blue line is less than 2x the movement as this is effectively ignoring the distance required to move around the intermediate unit (and the FAQ specifically says you don't ignore this extra distance required to move around obstacles).

I can see another interpretation of the FAQ and it comes down to the wording.
The issue is what is meant by "in the way".
Does it mean:
a) in the way of the center of the unit?
b) in the way of a particular member of the unit?
Given the FAQ indicates that the normal (i.e. when there aren't obstacles in the way) method of moving fast cav is treat the models as individuals, I would assume that you do the same for determining if something is "in the way" and hence has to be maneuvered around using extra movement.
I guess the tournaments Curu discusses only count something as in the way if it is between the starting center of the unit and the final center of the unit.

With regards to using infinite reforms to move every model into base contact with a unit (the Hexwraiths trick) I think that the FAQ ruling implicitly prohibits this as it just say pick up model and place it in a legal location. It doesn't say place it as many places as you like on the way there. I'm not sure if it's strictly legal or illegal but I would definitely consider it against the spirit of the rules and the game (I realize this doesn't mean much other than perhaps a sportsmanship deduction at a tournament).

Anyway that's my interpretation.
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#6 Post by Grenic »

The approach I use is to allow my opponent's to move their unit anywhere within in 2xM less 1” for each increase/decrease in rank number for each reform made and allowing for wheel distances (measured based on the initial and final unit centres). The important point is that the reform must retain the same unit centre, so any increase in ranks, moves the leading edge of the front rank 1" forward for each cavalry rank added.

In the example shown, the sequence of events would have been:
1) The unit reforms from 1 rank by 5 files (1x 5) to 5 ranks by 1 file (5x1);
2) Moved forward “x” inches; and
3) Complete a second reform from a 5x1 formations back into a 1x5 formation.

The mental math is relatively easy as both reforms changed the number of ranks by 4, so that’s a use of 4 x 2 x 1” = 8”. This limits the maximum centre-to-centre movement of the unit to 2x(M) – 8", which for a Hexwraith (M=8") would be 8" or 10” for a unit of Reavers (M=9").
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#7 Post by Dalamar »

The purple line in gaz's picture basically says it all. If you play any differently, you're playing a home rule
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#8 Post by Rabidnid »

Dalamar wrote:The purple line in gaz's picture basically says it all. If you play any differently, you're playing a home rule
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#9 Post by Grenic »

When I got my models out and moved them around to complete the required set of reforms (2 reforms are required) and forward move shown in the diagram, I found that Gaz's purple line understates the actual path of the highlighted model as it moves from its initial unit position to its final unit position.

The line does not show the model having to move past the final unit's position and then moving back into line when the second reform is completed.

Also the distance moved by the highlighted model is actually not the one that moved the greatest distance in order to complete each reform.

I found the greatest distance was moved by model #3 as it has to move either directly forward 4" or backwards 4" to take on the #1 or #5 model location in the conga line formation and would again move the same distance to unwind the conga line formaiton. Model #2 (the one located to the right of Gaz's highlighted model) or the #4 model (the one to the right of the centre model) also moves about 4" as one model or the other has to take the position in the conga line not taken by the #3 model (i.e. location #1 or #5).
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#10 Post by Dalamar »

But you don't perform actual reforms with fast cavalry.
You take one model, move it to desired location on its own and then do the same thing with each remaining model in the unit, keeping their formation and making sure no model moved more than Mx2.

Most of the time it can be achieved by simply sliding the whole unit in one direction. That covers 90% of situations.

What Curu describes is moving a unit to 5" away from enemy, performing a series of pointless reforms which only purpose is to attempt to abuse rules through bad understanding, and then move away with remaining move.

The whole thing fails to acknowledge the fact that word "through" requires no interpretation. It's a basic English word with a simple meaning.

When you say "they bullet went through the target" you will never imagine the bullet making a u-turn inside the target.

A lot of people are trying to make fast cavalry more complicated than it is.

It's simple.
Take a fast cav model, measure its movement exactly along its path and place it at destination. Then do the same with next one taking a similar path (no you still can't split a unit to go around an obstacle.

Skirmishers move in exact same way.
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#11 Post by Rabidnid »

Grenic wrote: I found the greatest distance was moved by model #3 as it has to move either directly forward 4" or backwards 4" to take on the #1 or #5 model location in the conga line formation and would again move the same distance to unwind the conga line formaiton. Model #2 (the one located to the right of Gaz's highlighted model) or the #4 model (the one to the right of the centre model) also moves about 4" as one model or the other has to take the position in the conga line not taken by the #3 model (i.e. location #1 or #5).

On Pg 14 the description of the reform suggests that #3 does not move at all during either of your reforms


Image
Last edited by Rabidnid on Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#12 Post by Curu Olannon »

Consider the FAQ from GW: If there are no obstacles, of course you move the unit like this. Thus, if this was the intention the FAQ is completely unnecessary. What the FAQ deals with is how you treat the movement when the unit can perform a number of reforms: I mean if there is nothing in its way then reforms are unnecessary (save for the fact that you can get more attacks per frontage etc). The FAQ makes sure to cover the topic of true obstacles in the way of the unit, so that it cannot be interpreted as moving as ethereal. See the diagram below:

Image

The picture to the left shows a unit being a true obstacle. The FAQ makes sure you can`t just place the unit behind without having to account for moving around the unit. The same goes for the picture on the right: a big piece of impassable terrain is in its way and the FAQ ensures that you cannot simply move through the rock.

The thing is that the whole model discussion is irrelevant: when you reform the unit there`s nothing in its way. Consider the following logical implications of your argument:
- The FAQ states that if there are no obstacles, you can place the unit freely within its 2x M, with reforms. This means a unit can reform as many times as it wishes, and move its full 2x M
- However, the way some of you interpret this, as soon as there`s a unit involved, the reforms magically start counting as movement. So, reforms are "free" as long as there are no units around. This is a logical inconsistency and therefore we can conclude that the FAQ does indeed tell us that reforms do not cost movement. To those of you who disagree with this, please explain to me the meaning of the FAQ if what I`ve explained above and in the previous post is not correct.

Those of you who want to argue the Hexwraiths situation: I suggest you open a thread of its own. Although it was what sparked this discussion, it is off topic and not fruitful to this thread.

Oh and @Rabidnid - that is just an example. Reform specifically states that you can rearrange as you please. Anyway, the whole point is irrelevant in light of what I wrote above.
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#13 Post by Grenic »

Rabidnid wrote:On Pg 14 the description of the reform suggests that #3 does not move at all during either of your reforms


Image
Unfortunately formations #2 and #3 are not permitted. However, if you revise the diagram to show the two models in line with other three, then the diagram works.

While you are not required to move the centre model, not doing so means that the #2 and #4 models must take positions #1 and #5 in the conga line. This will result in the same outcome, but both models will need to move slightly over 4" (about 4 1/8" each). However, if you move the #1 and #5 models to hold the same positions in the conga line they would move just under 4 1/2".

As the entire exercise here is to minimise the distance moved by each model, moving the centre model achieves this. The question then becomes are you really going to argue over 1/8"? I don't because it makes all the measuring more complex than it needs to be.
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#14 Post by Grenic »

For discussion purposes, the diagram is how I understand the sequence would be for normal Fast Cavalry:
Image

The diagram below shows the path of Model #4:
Image

I see the path and the distance that was moved by model #4 as being shown by the purple arrows.
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#15 Post by Rabidnid »

Grenic wrote:For discussion purposes, the diagram is how I understand the sequence would be for normal Fast Cavalry:
I see the path and the distance that was moved by model #4 as being shown by the purple arrows.
Yep, but where in the rules does it say that your unit must reform into a conga line and not a bent conga line? You are adding restrictions that do not exist in the rules. This is what Dalamar and I are trying to point out. With infinite numbers of reforms possible and no restrictions on the formation assumed - beyond the centre element remaining in the centre - you can pretty much ignore the whole thing and just move as individual elements without breaking anything.
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#16 Post by Grenic »

Rabidnid wrote:Yep, but where in the rules does it say that your unit must reform into a conga line and not a bent conga line? You are adding restrictions that do not exist in the rules.
Actually, they kind of do, refer to page 5, Forming Units, the rule at the top of the second column "All models in a unit must face the same direction." It is this rule that the bent formation breaks.
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#17 Post by Ferny »

Don't the rules not oblige unit formations to be ranked in legal ranks? So it wouldn't matter whether you have five ranks of 1, two ranks of 2 plus one rank of 1, or one rank of 5. But you would have to have full ranks.

Nowhere does it say our infantry can take on weird, stretched wheel type structure where they rank (kinda) at the pivot point but don't rank up on the outside arc of the wheel. Why should cavalry, or even fast cavarly, be able to do this?

Edit: ninjad, more concisely and with a reference. Bravo =D>
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#18 Post by Grenic »

Curu Olannon wrote:Image
For the diagram on the left showing the Fast Cavalry unit moving around a blocking unit, this could be completed using several different sequences. For the player though they need to be able to work out in their head what the proper sequence before they attempt to move the models.

For this example and assuming that there is sufficient room to wheel the conga line, then I would reform immediately into a conga line, move forward so the leading edge of the #1 model in the conga line is 1” past the unit, wheel left, move forward until the leading edge is 2” past the back of the blocking unit (needed to complete the final reform), wheel left, move forward desired distance, and then reform into the final position using a 90 degree reform (for a 90 degree reform use 1/2” per rank removed not 1”). The metal math is fairly easy, being 2(M) less 9” (4” for the initial reform, 2" for the 90 degree reform, and 1.5” for each wheel).

If I don’t have the space to wheel, then the sequence would be move the unit forward in its current formation so that it clears the unit by 1” (back of my models), reform into conga using a 90 degree reform, move by the unit such that the centre of the unit is 2” past the back of the blocking unit, reform into conga to face left (for a 90 degree 5 model conga-to-conga reform, use 5.5”), move forward, complete a 90 degree reform to reform into final position. Here the mental math is 2(M) less 9.5” for the reforms (2” for each of the two regular 90 degree reforms and 5.5” for the single 90 degree conga-to-conga reform)

In both cases if the distances needed to move the unit is less than my calculated available movement allowance, then I’m good. If not, I need to figure out what action to drop, which is typically the final reform, freeing up 4” or 2" depending on the type of reform.

For the diagram on the right with the impassible terrain being 1” in front of the unit, the best option is to reform into conga line facing right. Like the issue in the left diagram, the mental math will depend on what space you have to complete wheels. If you have the space, wheels are usually more efficient when in conga line formation, but if you can’t then multiple reforms must be used. Just keep in mind that as the number of reforms increase, the importance of knowing where models are to move within the reforms also increases, otherwise you will use up your movement allowance unnecessarily.
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#19 Post by Rabidnid »

Grenic wrote:
Rabidnid wrote:Yep, but where in the rules does it say that your unit must reform into a conga line and not a bent conga line? You are adding restrictions that do not exist in the rules.
Actually, they kind of do, refer to page 5, Forming Units, the rule at the top of the second column "All models in a unit must face the same direction." It is this rule that the bent formation breaks.
I'm probably thinking of an earlier version of the rules as I cannot find the example of a moving file I've seen. I will stick with Dalamar's reasoning and ignore the whole thing.
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#20 Post by Curu Olannon »

I don`t know why you keep ignoring my argument nor why you don`t take the FAQ into consideration. Let me provide a crystal clear example with the FAQ in mind, to hopefully once and for all show you how fast cav should be played. First:
BRB FAQ April `13 wrote: Q: When moving Fast Cavalry or Skirmishers, should I measure
from the location of each model before it moves and place it anywhere
within its Movement Allowance (or double its Movement Allowance
if it is marching) ? (p68, 77)

A: Yes. Except when there is a unit or impassable terrain in
the way, the distance moved must include the distance
required to move around these obstacles.
So the FAQ tells us you can pretty much pick up a fastcav unit and place it anywhere as long as no model has moved over 2x M, assuming no obstacles. Let`s consider a unit wanting to perform a side-ways move, a fairly common one for fast cav (shown in picture 0 in the diagram below):

Image

So, the rules say nothing about fast cav having endless wheels or anything, so if you try to wheel to accomplish this, you won`t have enough movement to get there (shown conceptually in picture 2). This is a typical problem experienced by cavlist generals: your movement quickly evaporates when you need to perform wheels like this. Fastcav however, don`t have this problem: as the FAQ clearly says above, they can use their free reform to actually get there. The way to do this is to reform around the center (this can also be a reform to a single file for that matter), move up and reform again to ensure every model is within 2x M from its starting position before you end your move (show conceptually in picture 1).

Now the FAQ clearly specifies that this is a legal move, but by the logic presented in this thread by those of you who disagree, it`s impossible because reforms cost movement. These 2 cannot coexist, so the only explanation is that reforms do not cost movement. Yes, this presents a problem with Hexwraiths and similar units, but this is beyond the scope of this discussion.
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#21 Post by Dalamar »

You're right. And wrong at the same time.

Nobody is claiming that reforms cost movement.

Just read carefull on how the faq fells you to move fast cavalry. I will spell it out for you.

Take a model.
Place it anywhere within it's movement allowance (18" in case of elven steeds)
If there is an obstacle in the way (enemy unit or impassable terrain. Or plain terrain that you want to go around, like a forest) make sure you measure the actual path.

At no point you perform standard reforms like any unit without the free reform rule would.

You don't:
Reform into a file
Move 18"
Reform into a line

Instead you:
Measure 18" for each model
Move fhem to destination, maintaining formation and making sure none moved more than double M
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#22 Post by Bashtrigger »

I wish I knew how to get pictures uploaded, otherwise I'd make a few examples in paint on how to move and how to calculate how much you've moved beyond your allowed movement (2x unit movement), whenever this applies.

Complex Maneuvering

Basically, you take 4 dice, 2 for each imaginary line you'll be drawing. You place the dice around your fast cav unit in such a way that the two lines they make intersect at the center of your unit. Then you pick up your unit. Then you measure, from your intersection, a line towards a other point on the battlefield --> this is moving your unit. Now from this new point, you can measure towards a other point on the battlefield and so forth untill you've ran out of movement, or you've ended up where you want to end up.

This last point, you make 2 imaginary lines intersecting at this point, and place your unit in any direction or formation you want, with it's center on the point created by your imaginary lines.

Changes in direction

Congratulations, you've moved, but it's likely you have moved some models to far. To check this, whenever you start a move with fast cav and whenever you end a move with fast cav, look at the direction you start and end the move. If your unit is not at a 90 degrees angle to that direction (in other words, not facing either towards or directly away from the direction you're moving), you will be moving more than allowed. How much more? Your center model will never move extra, but any models towards the side you're not moving to will, so measure a line from the edge of your center model (if you've got an even number of models and there is no center model, then measure from your center) towards the outer edge of your unit in a direction directly opposed to your movement direction. This is a bit confusing to try to explain, I would like to clarify with pictures later. Do this both at the start and at the end of your move, substract the largest of this numbers with the smallest of these numbers and you know how much you've moved above movement allowance (if you've marched your unit maximally) This last substraction may sound contradictionally now, but with images this will become clear.

What to do when increasing the number of ranks

Then if you've also changed formation into more ranks (deeper), this will also cause you to move further than allowed. To avoid moving too far, I will give you an explanation of what to do when reforming from a single rank into more ranks. Basically, whenever you decide to add more ranks in a reform, instead of placing your unit back with its center on the crossing of your imaginary lines, instead place it with: the center of the front rank if your unit will end up facing more in the direction last travelled or the center of the back rank if it will end up facing more contrary to the direction last travelled.

Something along these lines can also be used when reforming from a number of ranks to a different number of ranks, the point you choose in your unit when you place it at the end of the whole movement corresponds with the center of the rank in which your center was when you started the movement. In other words, when you start the move in 3 ranks (3 deep), the center will be over your 2nd rank, hence when you reform into more ranks, follow the rules above, but instead of the front or the back rank, take the second rank from either the front or back. An even number of ranks will not have its center in a rank but between ranks, however the same principle will still be valid.

Decreasing the number of ranks at the end of movement will not increase movement (rather decrease it), so no worries there.

When this rule of thumb has been followed for changing the number of ranks, you can still use the first rule of thumb for measuring any 'over movement allowances' due to changes in direction at the start of this post.

Simple maneuvres

Just moving in a straight line, without the need to move around objects and such? Then don't bother with all of the above, it's pointless wasting of time. Just measure where you want to end up and for each model in your unit measure if it has moved above allowance or not.



Again, all of this would make more sense with images, but I'm just not good with those :? If anyone would like to help me with how to upload and such I can make some later this week (tomorrow most likely).
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Prince of Spires
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#23 Post by Prince of Spires »

@Curu: you are and are not correct in your assesment.

The FAQ states that if you move a fast cav model over open ground, you simply pick up a model and put it down somewhere, facing whichever way you want. Maximum distance any model can be placed is 2X M for that model.

However, it also specifies what happens when there is no straight path to where you are going, so when a unit or impassible terrain is in the way. You then measure the distance of the path you are traveling to get to the destination. And this path can be max 2X M. This picture has it correct:
gaz wrote:Image
In this instance, the purple line is the distance the pink model moves. And this can be 2X M max, per the FAQ you quoted.

The FAQ also specifies that this is on a per model basis. So even if the centre of a unit would stay within the 2X M limit, the move wouldn't be legal if it means a model on the outside of the unit moves further.

(As a side note, in our earlier discussion, I missed the faq. Good catch)

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Bashtrigger
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#24 Post by Bashtrigger »

No, in fact Curu is correct,

Reforming does not cost movement, in the aforementioned situation, the unit does not need to take a detour, so the whole unit can move its maximum in movement value and you never have to worry about the models on the side taking a longer path.

No arguing about that, a reform does not cost movement, it only restricts movement for most unit types.

If the gap would have been slightly off the center of the fast cav unit, it would need to take a slight detour as a whole, hence needing more movement to get past the obstacle, this is what your FAQ is about.

The addition that no model can move more than twice its movement value, is to prevent shady behaviour like moving your fast cav and then wheeling it to get it just that couple of inches closer to your opponent, it's there to prevent people from abusing the fact that reforming does not cost movement.

Don't go abusing the rules that have been invented to prevent abuse!
Dalamar
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#25 Post by Dalamar »

Which part of the faq that says fast cav moves on a per model basis and not center to center is hard to understand?
Bashtrigger
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#26 Post by Bashtrigger »

Dalamar wrote:Which part of the faq that says fast cav moves on a per model basis and not center to center is hard to understand?
No part of the FAQ does, it just states that after movement has been made, no model of the unit may have moved over twice it's movement value. It doesn't tell you to track the movement of every model during a move. It tells you to check it after the move has been made

The reason that rule has been implemented is to prevent people from abusing reforming by moving to their max straight forward, and then reforming (either in more ranks, or sideways) to get closer than they normally would be able to go.

Lets put it this way, a fast cav can reform as many times as they want, so lets reform 20 times on the spot before I actually start moving, by your logic I've already used up all my movement allowance, while I haven't moved a single inch yet.

You don't calculate a reform in the movement value, you just check wether or not a model has traversed a distance over twice it's movement value at the end of your move, keeping in mind that a unit has to walk around intervening terrain.

In the picture show, there is no intervening terrain as the unit is able to move in a straight line forward, so no walking around means I can use the blue lines to check to see if my models haven't moved over twice their movement (reforming, after all, does not cost movement, we don't use the purple lines).

Now imagine that gap to be off to one of the sides of your fast cav unit. Then your unit has to move sideways to reach the gap, then forward through the gap and then sideways back again. In this case you WILL get less far because you've just had to move around to reach the same spot. This is what the FAQ about intervening terrain is about, this time around you have to make a new blue line, first sideways, then up, then back sideways to see if your fast cav model has moved too far, following the same lines the unit took. AKA, my unit needed to move 4" sideways, I make a blue line from my model 4" sideways, then a number of inches forward to get through the gap and then 4" sideways again. This is how far my model has now moved with intervening terrain accounted for.
Last edited by Bashtrigger on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dalamar
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#27 Post by Dalamar »

Ok.

Fast cavalry doesn't reform, you need to stop thinking about it this way or you'll never get it right.

Don't look only at the answer part, also look at the question part.

For each model in the unit you measure the distance it actually moved.

Yes, if you decide for some reason to move the unit in a tight circle and end up on the same spot you're more than welcome to.

The explanation exists to prevent abuse of hexwraiths running up to 2" away from target and performing a million pointless reforms to abuse the rules.

Pick up a model, measure its movement, place it down. Do the same with the next one. Forget about the reform manoeuver. Free reform is a completely different animal.
Bashtrigger
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#28 Post by Bashtrigger »

Dalamar wrote:Ok.

Fast cavalry doesn't reform, you need to stop thinking about it this way or you'll never get it right.

Don't look only at the answer part, also look at the question part.

For each model in the unit you measure the distance it actually moved.

Yes, if you decide for some reason to move the unit in a tight circle and end up on the same spot you're more than welcome to.

The explanation exists to prevent abuse of hexwraiths running up to 2" away from target and performing a million pointless reforms to abuse the rules.

Pick up a model, measure its movement, place it down. Do the same with the next one. Forget about the reform manoeuver. Free reform is a completely different animal.
It isn't, its the same exact animal. The very, very, very same animal. Thats the whole point. And I don't know who ever came up with the ridiculous notion that reforming that hexwraith unit a million pointless times did anything other than that, waste a whole lot of time. Reforming like that will never trigger any of the hexwraiths abilities concerning moving through units. I just told you, reforming has nothing to do with moving, none of those models that end up in a other spot has actually "moved" there as according to the WFB notion of a move.

If you want to make a visual representation of a reform, imagine all the models converging on a single spot (the center of your unit) and diverging out again to form a new formation. Normally this takes up some time and energy, therefore normal units are not allowed to move when they reformed (unless they swift reform). The new configuration of your unit has to respect all normal rules for units (staying 1" away from other units)

If you want to make a mental representation as to why Fast Cavalry can still move and march, then look at it this way. Fast Cav are so used to adapting to battlefield situation, and are so light as to be able to reform at will, without it affecting their movement, hence they are able to reform and still move and march. Think of it as them having a larger stamina reserve, which they can call in whenever a model has to make a little more distance to catch up with the unit.

However, ruleswise, this would allow a unit to traverse a greater trajectory than it was meant to do, so to prevent shenanigans, Games Workshop released a FAQ that makes you check the distance traversed per model to make sure your unit doesn't use any 20 wide to 20 deep reform shenanigans to end up eating a whole lot more distance than they GW wants a unit to be able to traverse.

And now some folks like you want to abuse this by telling me my unit suddenly isn't able to march up to it's full potential, even though my unit marched straight ahead and didn't even end up in a different configuration than it did when I started --> AKA, i've been a good boy and used the Fast Cav rules, without any abuse?

Well then, I now want to declare that nobody is able to reform in combat again, after all, you're not allowed to move in combat. Sounds pretty ridiculous doesn't it? That's because reforming is not equal to moving

I can reform a godzillion times on the same spot just as I like, and I can still move twice my movement value after that, just as I like. That march cannot take any of my models in that unit outside of twice their movement value from the beginning position though. If my unit has to go around something, my models have to do so aswell, therefore the "range bubble" of my models changes. But if my unit can move straight ahead, you're damn right my "range bubble" doesn't change one bit, and you're damn right I'll move my Fast Cav as if I was moving over open terrain.
edited: mind the language, please
Last edited by Bashtrigger on Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dalamar
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#29 Post by Dalamar »

You believe someone wants to stop you from moving your full potential. You misunderstand.

I start to see that you do understand movement of fast cavalry, you just do it in a convoluted and roundabout way.

But no, reforming units do not "converge on one spot" I don't know what makes you believe that.
Bashtrigger
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Re: Fast Cav, Reform and Movement

#30 Post by Bashtrigger »

Dalamar wrote:You believe someone wants to stop you from moving your full potential. You misunderstand.

I start to see that you do understand movement of fast cavalry, you just do it in a convoluted and roundabout way.

But no, reforming units do not "converge on one spot" I don't know what makes you believe that.
The way GW tells you to execute a reform tells me that (aka removing your unit and rebuilding it from the center outward)
I think that I now understand what you think a reform is. You think its a wheel. It isn't.

Imagine a 5x5 unit that changes formation to face it's previous side. The whole unit doesnt wheel about to the side (this is the equivalent to a WFB 'wheel'). Rather, each model changes facing to the side around it's own axis. Therefore the unit hasn't actually traversed any distance to wheel to the new facing. Now consider a 5x1 situation. Each model now turns on it own axis, but this turns the unit into a 1x5 situation, therefore the models 'reform' (hey, look at that, guess where that word originates from) to get back to their original 5x1 situation.

I do believe an example just as such is somewhere in your rulebook.

The side model hasn't actually moved in a circumferential way to end up in it's new position, heck, the model that is now on the side isn't even nessecerily the model that was originally on the side. If the model did move in a circumferential way, the unit wouldn't have reformed, it would have wheeled.

I have just thought of a whole new argument, let's say I want to reform a 30 wide unit, just to move my BSB to the other side of the unit, but hey! According to you, I can't, because it will have moved more than twice it's movement value, even though my unit itself hasn't moved at all (I can't even move, because I just reformed) :shock:

Edit: On hindsight, I actually can't because Games Workshop tell's me I can't on p.14 under reform. And it seems I did have a different notion of reform than GW did. I'm going to sit here and read through all the rules again before commenting any further.
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