Can Flying Chariots March?

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Ferny
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Can Flying Chariots March?

#1 Post by Ferny »

I'd assumed not and all the comments on ulthuan have suggested not too. But last night I faced a black coach and a tzeench chariot and at my club they reckon they can. I've asked for the quote FAQ/errata/rules my club plays and it's basically a re-telling of the discussion below:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthrea ... they-march

Now for my money, if skycutters CAN march, then they're really really useful. But if they can't then they maybe have a place in some armies, especially if like me you really like the model.

Is the ulthuan.net verdict that flying chariots definitely CANNOT march? Is there any precident for it from other races? Tzeench, Black Coach etc?
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#2 Post by Prince of Spires »

It can't march.

Reasoning: chariot entry sais that chariots can't march. Flying sais you can march as normal. The normal marching for a chariot is that you can't march. So a flying chariot can't march.

Only way I can make sense of 2 seemingly contradictory rules.

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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#3 Post by Minsc »

No they can't march, for the same reason you don't see marching Necrosphinxes, marching Carrions, marching flying Black Coaches, etc.
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#4 Post by wisetiger7 »

Rod, you can use that same argument for the affirmative that yes, a chariot can fly. Flying says you can march as normal. Chariot says you can’t march, which is abnormal. Thus, you fly march as normal.

I think we should remember one of my favorite rules: Basic versus Advanced rules.

“Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting, close combat, and so on, as well as the rules for Panic tests.”

In this sense, the Chariot’s rule is a basic rule. All chariots basically act the same, no march.

“Where rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.”

Fly is a special rule, which is an advanced rule, as it goes against things that normally do not fly. Thus, it overwrites the chariot rule of not marching, as the Flying rule specifically states that you can march.

The entry for “Flying March” states: “A unit that is flying can march as normal, doubling its flying move to 20”, representing a particularly long swoop or glide.”

This rule specifically states you can move 20”.
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#5 Post by John Rainbow »

wisetiger7 wrote:Rod, you can use that same argument for the affirmative that yes, a chariot can fly. Flying says you can march as normal. Chariot says you can’t march, which is abnormal. Thus, you fly march as normal.

I think we should remember one of my favorite rules: Basic versus Advanced rules.

“Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting, close combat, and so on, as well as the rules for Panic tests.”

In this sense, the Chariot’s rule is a basic rule. All chariots basically act the same, no march.

“Where rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.”

Fly is a special rule, which is an advanced rule, as it goes against things that normally do not fly. Thus, it overwrites the chariot rule of not marching, as the Flying rule specifically states that you can march.

The entry for “Flying March” states: “A unit that is flying can march as normal, doubling its flying move to 20”, representing a particularly long swoop or glide.”

This rule specifically states you can move 20”.
I don't know on this one. It tends to be played the other way in most cases - or at least all of them that I have seen i.e. Necrosphinx, Black Coach, etc as Minsc says. Again, an FAQ is required.
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#6 Post by Stormie »

I agree an FAQ is needed because GW specifically wrote a new rule this edition that represents models that can move but not march (Hover), so why continue to give flying chariots the fly rule if they would be limited to 10" only?

As per wording though I don't think flying chariots can march. The ability to march is forbidden by many things, such as arriving back on the table edge, being a Tomb King, being march-blocked, etc. Just having the flying rule doesn't change any of these. You might as well say, "My Dragon is in combat, and I want to march out of combat, and the Fly rule says I can march, so I can". Again, it's one of those rules that should be considered as having "excepting exceptions". ("those rules" are every rule in the game, by the way)
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#7 Post by Ferny »

Stormie wrote:I agree an FAQ is needed because GW specifically wrote a new rule this edition that represents models that can move but not march (Hover), so why continue to give flying chariots the fly rule if they would be limited to 10" only?
This is one of the arguments being used over at my group. But I semi-counter it with the "Sea Monster" special rule ;).

My gaming group seems pretty adamant that flying chariots can march. TBH I don't care which rules are used so long as I know - and it opens up some really interesting possibilities for me :mrgreen: .

I'm not a tournament player, but for those of you who are, what's been your experience there? Do they allow marching flying chariots or not?
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#8 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

After going through the whole Warseer thread about this, I'm now on the fence.
The Hover vs Fly argument makes complete sense, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Disc of Tzeench have the Hover rule, yet the chaos flying chariot has the Fly rule..

I know GW isn't known for its logical-ness but that's something that's plain obvious.

If Hover is Fly (but can't march) why on earth would anyone whom is designing a book be so daft to not include the relavant rule.?!
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#9 Post by Prince of Spires »

wisetiger7 wrote:I think we should remember one of my favorite rules: Basic versus Advanced rules.
While you are right that the basic vs advanced rule exists, both of them are advanced rules, so the basic vs advanced rule doesn't apply in this situation. Basic rules are all the rules you need to play with simple infantry models. Advanced rules "apply to specific types of models ... because the are not normal infantry models".

Rulewise there is no basic rule for chariots. The chariot rules themselves are advanced rules.

There is then a contradiction between the fly rule and the chariot rule.
- chariot sais you can't march
- fly sais you can march as normal

If you take the as normal to mean that you can march in any situation, then you get a conflict. If you take it to mean "the unit can march just like it normally could, except that it uses its fly move, then you have no conflict.

It definatly needs an FAQ, since both sides have their points. But until then, I'm going for "can't march" since that gives the fewest conflicts

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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#10 Post by Enomiel »

Asurion Whitestar wrote:After going through the whole Warseer thread about this, I'm now on the fence.
The Hover vs Fly argument makes complete sense, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Disc of Tzeench have the Hover rule, yet the chaos flying chariot has the Fly rule..

I know GW isn't known for its logical-ness but that's something that's plain obvious.

If Hover is Fly (but can't march) why on earth would anyone whom is designing a book be so daft to not include the relavant rule.?!

This is easily explainable the other way around: Flying chariot are chariot thus can't march, thus doesn't need to be hoovering while non-chariot potentialy flying unit you want to downgrade (for balance reason or whatever) need a specific rule or they'd be able to march.

I agree with what has been said on the flying rule part which say " the unit can march as normal", i.e. as per normal rule a chariot can't march so a flying chariot as normal can't march.
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#11 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

Assuming flying chariots CAN fly.
All others get a greater boon the we, as the Skycutter can't shoot after marching anyway..
So there's no real super move of 20" plus shoot with Eagle Eye and/or crew.
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#12 Post by Eirik »

So should we all start spamming GW customer service with this question in the hope that it gets FAQd?
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#13 Post by Ferny »

My mate emailed them today about the Black Coach on this address and got a response (probably auto) saying it would be considered for the next FAQ.

gamefaqs@gwplc.com

Unless the forum has any particular sway or rules about spamming the faq email, I think it's a good idea. Completely changes the utility of the unit if it can march...and more likely to sell models =D>
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#14 Post by Eirik »

Ferny wrote:My mate emailed them today about the Black Coach on this address and got a response (probably auto) saying it would be considered for the next FAQ.

gamefaqs@gwplc.com

Unless the forum has any particular sway or rules about spamming the faq email, I think it's a good idea. Completely changes the utility of the unit if it can march...and more likely to sell models =D>
I doubt there are any rules about it... people complain enough that GW doesn't listen to their customers; there's certainly no reason we can't just speak louder.
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#15 Post by Enomiel »

Asurion Whitestar wrote:Assuming flying chariots CAN fly.
All others get a greater boon the we, as the Skycutter can't shoot after marching anyway..
So there's no real super move of 20" plus shoot with Eagle Eye and/or crew.
On the other hand I never considered taking the eagle eye option as I found shooting option match poorly with a chariot and S5 unique shoot isn't powerful enough to push me past this reluctance (as an ironblaster is).

But if the chariot can march and get the 20" flying movement it could be priceless to strategically place yourself for combined charge or go well past the enemy's front line and threaten anything behind.
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#16 Post by Delaqure »

rdghuizing wrote:
wisetiger7 wrote:I think we should remember one of my favorite rules: Basic versus Advanced rules.
While you are right that the basic vs advanced rule exists, both of them are advanced rules, so the basic vs advanced rule doesn't apply in this situation. Basic rules are all the rules you need to play with simple infantry models. Advanced rules "apply to specific types of models ... because the are not normal infantry models".

Rulewise there is no basic rule for chariots. The chariot rules themselves are advanced rules.

There is then a contradiction between the fly rule and the chariot rule.
- chariot sais you can't march
- fly sais you can march as normal

If you take the as normal to mean that you can march in any situation, then you get a conflict. If you take it to mean "the unit can march just like it normally could, except that it uses its fly move, then you have no conflict.

It definatly needs an FAQ, since both sides have their points. But until then, I'm going for "can't march" since that gives the fewest conflicts

Rod
Flying is a special rule that overrides the basic rules. Flying says you can march as normal, meaning you follow the normal rules for marching such as doubling your move, can't march withing 8" of an enemy unless you pass a leadership test etc. The skycutter is a chariot that moves like a chariot and hits like a chariot etc and has the additional special rule that it can fly. The special rule of fly, overrides the basic rule of movement of a chariot. Otherwise what the heck is the point of a flying chariot? What the heck is the point of special rules if they don't overrinde the regular rules? I even think in the special rules section it states they override the regular rules.
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#17 Post by Dalamar »

What the heck is a point of a flying chariot?
Perhaps a chariot that can fly over obstacles, terrain, *enemy units*. Heck, that's a whole lot of a point to have a flying chariot!

You think you're safe on the other side of the forest and then the charioteer charges you over it. Surprise.

Why don't we simply use both rules?
if, chariot can't march
and, fly allows to march as normal
then, what is normal for chariot? //look line 1
conclusion, flying chariot can't march.
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#18 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

Dalamar wrote:What the heck is a point of a flying chariot?
A 20" ignore obstacles move...!
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#19 Post by Prince of Spires »

Delaqure wrote:The special rule of fly, overrides the basic rule of movement of a chariot.
This assumes that some special rules are more special then others. Which is not the case. The chariot rules are special rules, just like the fly special rule. So the basic chariot movement rule is not a basic rule at all, but a special rule. Which puts it on the same level as the fly rule.

As for what the point of a flying chariot is, you have to ask the designer that. Probably thought it looks cool.

I agree with Dalamars interpretation. Fly rules say you can march as normal. Chariot can't normally march, so no marching for a flying chariot. It already has a lot of benefits for the chariot, as anyone who has rolled a 1 followed by a 4+ for a dangerous terrain test can tell you.

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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#20 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

My gripe with the rules is still:
Hover vs Fly.

Why give something that can't march the Fly special rule if all it can do is Hover..?
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#21 Post by Dalamar »

Because being a chariot already prevents it from marching so why repeat a rule?
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#22 Post by Maedil »

Dalamar wrote:Because being a chariot already prevents it from marching so why repeat a rule?
Why then create the "Hover"-rule? Obviously, it is used by other units, but why not just use it for all the units that can fly but not march?

That in my mind would create the best interaction between the rules, lessen the room for confusing, avoiding the advanced-on-advanced rules debate (with the sub-question what is an advanced rule). Personal note: this was not a real problem before the Hover-rule became a thing, because up until then it was assumed that the march-restriction in the chariot rules overruled the fly rules.
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#23 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

Maedil wrote:
Dalamar wrote:Because being a chariot already prevents it from marching so why repeat a rule?
Why then create the "Hover"-rule? Obviously, it is used by other units, but why not just use it for all the units that can fly but not march?

That in my mind would create the best interaction between the rules, lessen the room for confusing, avoiding the advanced-on-advanced rules debate (with the sub-question what is an advanced rule). Personal note: this was not a real problem before the Hover-rule became a thing, because up until then it was assumed that the march-restriction in the chariot rules overruled the fly rules.
At the same time remember the Black Coach of 7th edition?
It could Fly, and then remember that back then Fly wasn't a Marching Hover..

So in theory this is what I believe was intended.
Chariots CAN Fly, not just Hover.
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#24 Post by Maedil »

I have to pass on the 7th edition rules, as I have only played 6th and 8th. However, GW is good at being confusing, I will grant them that.
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#25 Post by Bashtrigger »

What you guys misinterpret, is that the little heading "Flying March" under the Fly special rules, is there to state that a flying unit is 'allowed' to march for a full 20" flying march, as opposed to only a 10" flying move and then a march on the normal movement on the model. What is isn't meant to say is that every flying unit that otherwise isn't allowed to suddenly becomes allowed to march.

Granted, if they would have just given the chariot Hover, things wouldn't become so complicated. But a flying chariot is still a chariot, so 'may not march' clearly overrides an 'allowed to march for a full 20"' in my books.

Everyone I've ever played ruled it that way, without even considering it might be ruled differently.

In short: treat the rule under the Fly heading as saying: 'A unit that is flying and is allowed a march move, may march by doubling it's flying move to 20", representing a praticularly long swoop or glide' (This is how it should be changed in the general rulebook FAQ to prevent any more nitpicking)

If not, you're also suddenly not allowed to marchblock a flying unit, because the fly rule would override any 'may not march' rule in existence
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#26 Post by Nicene »

Flying VC and TK units also may not march, for example.
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#27 Post by Prince of Spires »

While I agree with the outcome of the ruling, I would caution you to be careful with the argument you are making.
Bashtrigger wrote:is there to state that a flying unit is 'allowed' to march for a full 20" flying march, as opposed to only a 10" flying move and then a march on the normal movement on the model. What is isn't meant to say is that every flying unit that otherwise isn't allowed to suddenly becomes allowed to march.
Bashtrigger wrote: In short: treat the rule under the Fly heading as saying:
How do you know? There isn't any hidding meaning in the rules. The moment you should treat something as reading something else, then you are entering your own opinion into the rules. Someone who is convinced that flying chariots can march, can very simply say to your argument:
"that's not what the rules say. You're not the one who invented the rules, so you have no idea about the intent of the writer. Therefor all we have to go on is what is written down. It is written down that special rules trump basic rules. Chariots not marching is a basic rule. Flying march is a special rule. So flying chariots can march."

It's hard to argue with that from the point of "it should read something else because that is what they mean with the text." When someone is convinced of his ruling and pointing at the words in the BRB, this kind of argument is definatly not going to change his opinion.

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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#28 Post by Stormie »

I agree with his re-wording of it, because all he is essentially changing in the text is to add "if allowed to do so". This is a tautological rule that is present in almost every rule out there (along with "except for exceptions), and (both) could be added to nearly every permissive rule in the game- it'd just waste a lot of text space. As such terms are redundant by their nature, we should be able to cope without their presence, and know that they apply even though it doesn't (and shouldn't have to) state them for each rule.
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#29 Post by Nicene »

For example, in the Movement section, it states something like "a unit may declare a charge." Elsewhere we can read that "a fleeing unit cannot do other things and must attempt to rally". and also that "warmachines cannot charge." So the statement that a unit may charge carries the implicit caveat that the unit must be allowed to do so.

Generally, perhaps, if we are told in one place that a unit may do something, and told elsewhere that it may not, then it may not.
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Re: Can Flying Chariots March?

#30 Post by Bashtrigger »

rdghuizing wrote:While I agree with the outcome of the ruling, I would caution you to be careful with the argument you are making.
Bashtrigger wrote:is there to state that a flying unit is 'allowed' to march for a full 20" flying march, as opposed to only a 10" flying move and then a march on the normal movement on the model. What is isn't meant to say is that every flying unit that otherwise isn't allowed to suddenly becomes allowed to march.
Bashtrigger wrote: In short: treat the rule under the Fly heading as saying:
How do you know? There isn't any hidding meaning in the rules. The moment you should treat something as reading something else, then you are entering your own opinion into the rules. Someone who is convinced that flying chariots can march, can very simply say to your argument:
"that's not what the rules say. You're not the one who invented the rules, so you have no idea about the intent of the writer. Therefor all we have to go on is what is written down. It is written down that special rules trump basic rules. Chariots not marching is a basic rule. Flying march is a special rule. So flying chariots can march."

It's hard to argue with that from the point of "it should read something else because that is what they mean with the text." When someone is convinced of his ruling and pointing at the words in the BRB, this kind of argument is definatly not going to change his opinion.

Rod
I don't know, but the placing of the rule within the whole box of rules of Fly, implies that this is just a little addendum to clarify that a unit with fly that marches, may do so up to 20" and that the whole march move can be treated as a flying move. The wording however is poorly chosen, leaving us with this whole discussion. Just take a critical look at the little flying march rule in it's context of the whole fly rule. For instance, the Flee and Pursue rule (the very next little rule) specifically states that flyers move over ground when pursuing (so it clarifies how to move when pursuing). The little rule Moving Flyers is there to claryfy how a unit with fly moves, leaving me to believe the flying march rule is there to tell us how to move when marching (not to automatically allow a march move). Both the flying move and the 20" are the important parts the writer was probably considering while adding this little addendum. I very much doubt he was thinking about allowing every flying unit a march even if they are normally not allowed to.

In short, I strongly believe that in this case, the writer wanted to clarify how to execute a march move with a Flying unit. Note that the general marching rules say that all troops can move at double speed (which at this point still includes chariots). But a closer look at that rule, tells you that it's there to clarify that such a thing as a march move exists, and how to execute it. Then any troop types that are not allowed a march, have an entry at their specific pages. The may not march then overrides the can march. I strongly believe the same to be true for the Flying March rule. I strongly believe it's there to tell you such a thing as a flying march exists, and how to execute it. Then, if certain troop types are not allowed a march, this is clarified at their own page.

There is absolutely no text ever written that was not influenced by context, neither are the WFB rules, even though for simplicity's sake we love to take each rule as a single entity. They are not, they interact, and they do so very often.

Then again, context is a %^&#, and anyone who strongly wants to believe that they are now allowed to march with their flying chariots, will most certainly whipe their buttocks with my now very carefully presented argument. Feel free to do so, meanwhile I'll happily choose not to march with my flying chariots, neither does my friend who plays Vampire Counts.

I just spent 20 minutes editing this message to get to this final draft, I hope I don't come over as an asshole who just wants to be right, a lot of carefull thought has been applied to come to the conclusion I arrived at. And neither was I just trying to randomly change a rule in the rulebook to change it's meaning. I was, with carefull consideration, trying to give you a rewriting of the Flying March rule that would prevent it from conflicting with other rules, without changing what I believe to be it's purpose. [-o<
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