Does Blizzard Aura stack?

[HERO]

Page 66 – Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have.
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to
“[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However,
unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit
from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of
the first paragraph.

Source:
https://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cu ... PRIL13.pdf


Doesn't say anything about the Frostheart's Blizzard Aura..
If you have 2 of them on a unit, is it -2S (to a min of 1)?

Exact quote:
"Any enemy unit in base contact with a Frostheart Phoenix has the ASL special rule and suffers a -1 to its Strength (to min of 1)."

[Malossar]

That's how we're playing it. Since ASL can't be stacked, mainly because its a rule in the BRB but the strength can, i mean they're REALLY cold.


However I think we need a FAQ to clear this up for sure.

[akkristor]

As the rule is written from the enemy unit's point of view, and simply asks the question "is it in contact with A phoenix", as written it does not seem to stack if two Frosthearts are in contact with the same unit.

[Jimmy]

I don't believe it does or should stack.

Do I get +2D3 power dice for taking two caskets of souls in my Tomb Kings?

[Bra'tac]

I don't normally chip in to such things but I'll have a go.

"A model gains no additional benefit from having the same special rule multiple times". This says to me that ASL doesn't stack, as I'm sure everyone will agree. However the Blizzard Aura states The enemy gain the ASL special rule AND Minus 1 Strength.(emphasis mine) So the enemy unit gains a Special rule and a Modifier, and modifier's can stack.

Just as a caveat, Each Phoenix only has the special rule Blizzard Aura once, it does not have the same special rule multiple times, you obviously can't have 2 blizzard aura's on a single Phoenix. This may be a little pedantic but I think it's worth saying. So the only unit this rule(P66 BRB) can be relevant to is the enemy unit. So it boils down to this, is the -1 to strength a special rule? I'd have to say no, it's a modifier.

So, to sum up, the enemy unit is only gaining the effects of the special rule once, but is effected by both modifiers. (it actually has ASL twice too, it just makes no difference in gameplay terms.)

I've convinced myself anyway,

(@Jimmy - I don't know the TK book at all, but this is apples and oranges surely?)

[akkristor]

I don't normally chip in to such things but I'll have a go.

"A model gains no additional benefit from having the same special rule multiple times". This says to me that ASL doesn't stack, as I'm sure everyone will agree. However the Blizzard Aura states The enemy gain the ASL special rule AND Minus 1 Strength.(emphasis mine) So the enemy unit gains a Special rule and a Modifier, and modifier's can stack.

Just as a caveat, Each Phoenix only has the special rule Blizzard Aura once, it does not have the same special rule multiple times, you obviously can't have 2 blizzard aura's on a single Phoenix. This may be a little pedantic but I think it's worth saying. So the only unit this rule(P66 BRB) can be relevant to is the enemy unit. So it boils down to this, is the -1 to strength a special rule? I'd have to say no, it's a modifier.

So, to sum up, the enemy unit is only gaining the effects of the special rule once, but is effected by both modifiers. (it actually has ASL twice too, it just makes no difference in gameplay terms.)

I've convinced myself anyway,

(@Jimmy - I don't know the TK book at all, but this is apples and oranges surely?)

The only difficulty I have with this interpretation is how the Blizzard Aura is worded. "Any enemy unit in base contact with a Frostheart phoenix has the ASL rule and suffers -1 to it's strength".

The main question here is not does the Blizzard Aura stack, but rather, do two Phoenix effect a unit with the aura twice?

Looking at the wording of the Blizzard Aura rule, it is written from the perspective of the enemy unit, and the qualifier for the penalty is to be "in base contact with A Frostheart Phoenix".

Even if the unit is in base contact with more than one Phoenix, the rule in this case does not seem to care at all how many are in contact with the unit, it only matters if the unit is in contact with a phoenix. If the unit is in contact with a phoenix, it has ASL and -1 STR. Units in contact with more than one phoenix qualify, as they are in contact with a phoenix.

Granted, this rule can be easily interpreted either way, as it is quite ambiguous. Barring a FAQ, i doubt that any amount of analysis of the wording of the rule itself will allow for a definitive interpretation of the effects.

[HERO]

I don't believe it does or should stack.

Do I get +2D3 power dice for taking two caskets of souls in my Tomb Kings?

That's because your casket says "one or more". The Phoenix does not. Until it does, the -1S will stack.

[theviking]

I would opine it doesn't stack for two reasons. Note that this is my opinion, both my arguments have holes.

First,

As previously stated, the rule takes effect from the enemy's perspective. If a unit meets the required condition (base contact with a frostheart) the Blizzard Aura effect (ASL and -1 strength) is applied.

Now, if the rule said "this phoenix is in base contact with an enemy unit" then multiple blizzards would stack, as the condition would be met from the phoenix's perspective, and could be met multiple times with corresdponding multiple effects.

I realize this can be argued otherwise as there is nothing to make the enemy unit consider all units in base contact as a whole. The argument relies on language, always an iffy prospect when GW rules are involved.

Second, and more importantly,

Special rules do not stack. We've established that ASl is a special rule and thus not stackable, but no one mentioned yet that Blizzard Aura is itself a special rule. If special rules cannot be stacked, then a unit affected by Blizzard Aura can only be affected once, regardless of the number of sources.

Again, this can be debated by saying that Blizzard Aura is a special rule for the Frostheart, and the affected unit is given a special rule (not stackable) and a debuff (stackable).

Ugh, all this thinking makes my head hurt. I am going to go have a beer and wait for GW to errata the description to "one or more" instead of "a".

[Asurion Whitestar]

I don't believe it does or should stack.

Do I get +2D3 power dice for taking two caskets of souls in my Tomb Kings?

That's because your casket says "one or more". The Phoenix does not. Until it does, the -1S will stack.

True.

I believe it is meant to be played that way aswell.
If not it would have the same wording as the casket.
One or more.

[pk-ng]

Life would be easier if GW had added: it does not stack

[Prince of Spires]

Repost from the frost vs flame thread:
Been thinking about the frost stacking issue a bit and I think in the end it does stack, though it does probably need and faq.

Reasoning:
the faq said special rules don't stack. The question then becomes, what is the special rule in question?
The special rule is blizzard aura. This is on the phoenix. So having 2 blizzard auras (if that was possible) on the phoenix is useless. But blizzard aura isn't on the unit, it's on the phoenix. So while it doesn't stack on the phoenix, that doesn't say anything about the target unit. Blizzard aura then does 2 things.
1. Give ASL to a unit
2. Give -1 S.

The point that the rule is written from the perspective of the enemy unit is a bit moot. The phoenix has the special rule, not the unit. And the special rule from the phoenix does 2 things. The first is giving a special rule and so doesn't stack. But the second is not, it simply a change to a stat.

Rod

[Shannar, Sealord]

Repost from the frost vs flame thread:
Been thinking about the frost stacking issue a bit and I think in the end it does stack, though it does probably need and faq.

Reasoning:
the faq said special rules don't stack. The question then becomes, what is the special rule in question?
The special rule is blizzard aura. This is on the phoenix. So having 2 blizzard auras (if that was possible) on the phoenix is useless. But blizzard aura isn't on the unit, it's on the phoenix. So while it doesn't stack on the phoenix, that doesn't say anything about the target unit. Blizzard aura then does 2 things.
1. Give ASL to a unit
2. Give -1 S.

The point that the rule is written from the perspective of the enemy unit is a bit moot. The phoenix has the special rule, not the unit. And the special rule from the phoenix does 2 things. The first is giving a special rule and so doesn't stack. But the second is not, it simply a change to a stat.

Rod

That's where I am on it. I don't care to predict what the eventual FAQ will say though

[Eirik]

Even though it isn't written as explicitly as casket of souls, the wording seems clear in that it will not stack. Each unit in contact with a frostheart phoenix gets -1S. If you're in contact with 1, then you satisfy the condition 'in contact with a frostheart' and get -1. If you're in contact with 2, or 11, or 100, then you satisfy the condition 'in contact with a frostheart' and get -1S.

[Jimmy]

Agreed.

[wisetiger7]

I humbly disagree with Erik.

Wake of Fire specifically states: "If a Flamespyre Phoenix moves over one or more unengaged enemy units in the Remaining Moves sub-phase..."

This clearly demonstrates the singular, regardless of the actual number.

Blizzard Aura states: "Any enemy unit in base contact with a Frostheart Phoenix..."

If the -1S wasn't meant to stack, they would have said "Any enemy unit in base contact with one or more Frostheart Phoenixes..." However, it says "...contact with a Frostheart..." Therefore, it is clear RAWwise, that it is meant to stack.

The difference in the wording of these two rules makes it clear that it was meant to stack both RAW and RAI. Now, who knows the real intent of GW on this rule, but as far as we know now, they have the vocabulary to differentiate stack from no-stack. Because they did not use said vocab with regards to the Blizzard Aura rule, I believe it does indeed stack. Additionally, the language used "to a minimum of 1" is a clear indication that it does stack. If you look at Shield of Saphery, it states "...gain +1 to their ward save (to a maximum ward save of 3+)..." This is clear in that it stacks, and thus we must attribute the same logic to the wording in Blizzard Aura.

Furthermore, I agree with Rod, in the sense that the enemy unit obtains the rules granted by the Blizzard Aura, thus the ASL does not stack (being a special rule itself), but the -1S does.

[Danidude]

Regarding ASL as a special rule and can not stack. A friend of mine argued when a unit has ASF, and gains ASL it goes to imitative. However when it gains ASL again it becomes ASL, as ASL is not a benefit and therefore ASL may be cumulative with itself. I can see where his point of view is coming from, and can not really see in the rules how this is wrong.

This might be a big thing regarding that with our FH may gain double ASL. Thoughts?

[Shannar, Sealord]

Regarding ASL as a special rule and can not stack. A friend of mine argued when a unit has ASF, and gains ASL it goes to imitative. However when it gains ASL again it becomes ASL, as ASL is not a benefit and therefore ASL may be cumulative with itself. I can see where his point of view is coming from, and can not really see in the rules how this is wrong.

This might be a big thing regarding that with our FH may gain double ASL. Thoughts?

It's been FAQ'd as wrong.

[Danidude]

It's been FAQ'd as wrong.

Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have.
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to
“[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However,
unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit
from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of
the first paragraph.

How is it wrong according to this?

[pk-ng]

It's been FAQ'd as wrong.

Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have.
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to
“[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However,
unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit
from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of
the first paragraph.

How is it wrong according to this?

I can see where you're coming from but it specifies that multiple special rule does not stack. I know it's says "no additional benefit" but it's an another ruling not one that cancels the first sentence.

At least that's how I see it.

[Foxbat]

Page 66 – Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have.
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to
“[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However,
unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit
from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of
the first paragraph.

Source:
https://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cu ... PRIL13.pdf

I’m not so sure that I agree with how this change to the rules is being interpreted relative to ASF and ASL interactions. This interpretation can be summarized as “because I already have ASL, due to a great weapon even though I have ASF, means that any further applications of ASL are ignored”.

The rule change cited relates to the stacking of the same rule when the model is already benefiting from the effects of that Special Rule. The classic example was Armour Piercing, where players were attempting to argue that their model with AP would get a further benefit from the Razor Standard. This rule change addresses this type of situation where the model has the effect and is attempting to apply it again. Here as the AP Special Rule does not state that it stacks, it doesn’t.

In the case of ASF + ASL, the rules have a stated outcome of this interaction and that outcome is that neither rule applies. As a result, the model is not under the effect of either rule. My interpretation of this interaction is that where a model has both ASF and ASL, the model simply swings in initiative order and that model no longer has the benefit of either Special Rule. The fundamental difference between this interpretation and the “I have ASL cause I have a GW, I’m immune to further ASL” logic is that my interpretation fully recognizes the ASL rule while the “I’m immune” approach only partially recognizes the ASL rule. A further problem of this partial application of the ASL rule is that it will lead to rules arguments around how combats should be resolved.

To better see what I mean, let’s apply the two approaches to a combat scenario where a unit of WL has charged a unit of Great Swords.

First we will begin with a player that applies the “I already have ASL cause I have a GW, I’m immune to further ASL” logic. So you begin to resolve the combat and you go to throw your dice, but your opponent says “Hold on there! I saw that against your last opponent, an Ogre player, you applied the logic that your WLs have ASL and were immune to the effects of his Thundertusk, then this means that my GS and your WL resolve their attack’s simultaneously.” You scream “WHHHAAAAATTT? They have ASF and ASL so they swing based on initiative order!” Your opponent then goes on to ask “Well do your WLs have the ASL Special Rule or not?” You respond, “Of course they do, they have GW.” Your opponent then says “Right, by the ASL rule, it says that if your model, your WLs, face an opponent with this ability, the combat is resolved simultaneously. My GS have ASL and they are your WL’s opponent, so by the rule the combat is resolved simultaneously.” While you can attempt to argue that your opponent is being a rules lawyer and not applying the full ASL rule, the truth is that this is exactly what is going on when one attempts to use the “I’m immune to ASL” argument as this approach also conveniently forgets to apply the ASF & ASL cancel aspect of the ASL rule. Here the Empire player has simply applied the rule in the same manner.

Now moving to the alternative interpretation of “ASF + ASL = cancelled special rules”. In the earlier Ogre Kingdoms game, the WLs would have swung last if they were within the ASL effect range of the Thundertusk or in initiative when outside of the ASL effect area. Moving to the Empire game, the WLs would swing based on initiative order and before the GSs who would strike last due to their ASL Special Rule. No arguments, no issue.

Just for more fun, let’s discuss the effect of attempting to use the two interpretations to a different combat where say your opponent’s WLs have been charged by your unit of Dragon Princes. Once again, by not fully recognizing that the stacking effect of ASL and ASF is cancellation of these two Special Rules, this combat will also result in a rules argument as the ASF rule also includes the same “opponent with the same ability” language as found in the ASL rule. Here your High Elf opponent will say to you that since my unit of WLs has the Special Rule ASF and your unit of Dragon Princes (my opponent) has the same ability, we resolve the combat simultaneously and you don’t get any re-rolls!

I believe that the best way to address multiple applications of ASF and ASL is to count up the number of ASF and ASL rule applications a model is under. If the net result is more ASF than ASL the model strikes with ASF, if they are equal then the model strikes in initiative order, and if there are more ASL than ASF the model would strike using ASL.

[John Rainbow]

Just in, the Crossroads GT (big tournament in NE USA) has ruled no:

Q: Does the -1 Str. to units in base contact with a Frost Phoenix stack if they are in contact with more than one of them?
A: No, only -1S.

[Domine Nox]

I believe that the best way to address multiple applications of ASF and ASL is to count up the number of ASF and ASL rule applications a model is under. If the net result is more ASF than ASL the model strikes with ASF, if they are equal then the model strikes in initiative order, and if there are more ASL than ASF the model would strike using ASL.

So in your gaming group casting Speed of Light on WLs or SMs gives them re-rolls?

[The Silly Dragon]

That's a different can of worms I feel. It is not clear whether or not the Aura stacks but its pretty clear that ASF+ ASL = I no matter how many times you add in ASF as ASL is still there to make it I order. What possible rules do you use to justify getting re-rolls?

[Keith]

I don't believe it does or should stack.

Do I get +2D3 power dice for taking two caskets of souls in my Tomb Kings?

That's because your casket says "one or more". The Phoenix does not. Until it does, the -1S will stack.

True.

I believe it is meant to be played that way aswell.
If not it would have the same wording as the casket.
One or more.

This is nonsense. Look at the quote.

"Any enemy unit in base contact with a Frostheart Phoenix has the ASL special rule and suffers a -1 to its Strength (to min of 1)."

Are you in contact with a FP, if so, you are -1STR and ASL.

This is still just a true false if there are 9 FP on the table or 1.

[HERO]

Where's our damn FAQ is more like it.

[Mordekai]

This is nonsense. Look at the quote.

"Any enemy unit in base contact with a Frostheart Phoenix has the ASL special rule and suffers a -1 to its Strength (to min of 1)."

Are you in contact with a FP, if so, you are -1STR and ASL.

This is still just a true false if there are 9 FP on the table or 1.[/quote]

Well, if you cast a spell giving a unit -1str, and then cast it again on the same unit with another wizard, does that stack ?
Of course it does.
What is the wording on that ? No different then with the Frostheart.
It is an effect that affects a stat, and stat changing effects are cumulative.

For the effect not stacking, they would simply write 'in contact with one or more Frosheart' as they do always.
Quite clear to me.

[Bashtrigger]

I seem to remember this question to have actually been asked to games workshop staff before and they stated the -1S stacked. What happens is simply that with 2 FP, the unit in base contact gets: -1S, -1S, ASL, ASL.
Like with armour piercing, ASL cannot stack, and instead becomes a singular rule, leaving: -1S, -1S, ASL.
Stat changes do stack, turning the total effect into: -2S, ASL.

If this was not intended, in the next FAQ, they will change the wording of the rule into "one or more", if this WAS intended, they again will clarify in the (hopefully soon) upcoming FAQ. Untill such a time, the S part of the aura stacks, because there is no valid reason for it not to.

Please note that the aura confers 2 different effects, so the ASL part doesn't prevent the stat part from stacking.

On the other hand (maybe because of balancing issues?) the general ruling in the tournament scene has been 'no'

So purely based on the ruling as is, yes it stacks. Based on 'what was probably meant', for now the tournaments rule it as 'no'

[pk-ng]

This is nonsense. Look at the quote.

"Any enemy unit in base contact with a Frostheart Phoenix has the ASL special rule and suffers a -1 to its Strength (to min of 1)."

Are you in contact with a FP, if so, you are -1STR and ASL.

This is still just a true false if there are 9 FP on the table or 1.

Well, if you cast a spell giving a unit -1str, and then cast it again on the same unit with another wizard, does that stack ?
Of course it does.
What is the wording on that ? No different then with the Frostheart.
It is an effect that affects a stat, and stat changing effects are cumulative.

For the effect not stacking, they would simply write 'in contact with one or more Frosheart' as they do always.
Quite clear to me.[/quote]

I seem to remember this question to have actually been asked to games workshop staff before and they stated the -1S stacked. What happens is simply that with 2 FP, the unit in base contact gets: -1S, -1S, ASL, ASL.
Like with armour piercing, ASL cannot stack, and instead becomes a singular rule, leaving: -1S, -1S, ASL.
Stat changes do stack, turning the total effect into: -2S, ASL.

If this was not intended, in the next FAQ, they will change the wording of the rule into "one or more", if this WAS intended, they again will clarify in the (hopefully soon) upcoming FAQ. Untill such a time, the S part of the aura stacks, because there is no valid reason for it not to.

Please note that the aura confers 2 different effects, so the ASL part doesn't prevent the stat part from stacking.

On the other hand (maybe because of balancing issues?) the general ruling in the tournament scene has been 'no'

So purely based on the ruling as is, yes it stacks. Based on 'what was probably meant', for now the tournaments rule it as 'no'

Firstly never ask GW staff for rules clarification....they are seldom right.
Base on ruling we wouldn't have this thread. There's a rule the specifically states special rule do not stack. Is Blizzard aura a special rule? -> yes therefore people conclude it does not stack. As do most of the biggest tournaments agree as well.

[Prince of Spires]

Base on ruling we wouldn't have this thread. There's a rule the specifically states special rule do not stack. Is Blizzard aura a special rule? -> yes therefore people conclude it does not stack. As do most of the biggest tournaments agree as well.

Only problem with this argument is that the frostheart doesn't give Blizzard aura to the unit in B2B contact. The forstheart is the one with the blizzard aura special rule (so having it twice on one frostheart if that were possible would do nothing that the first doesn't do).

Blizzard aura does 2 things: it confers a special rule to units in B2B, being ASL, and it confers a stats change to units in B2B, being -1S. The target unit never receives Blizzard aura as a special rule. So havign 2 frosthearts in B2B with a unit then gives ASL twice, which is the same as giving it once since special rules don't stack. And it gives -1S twice.

Having -1S twice is the same as getting -2S (to a minimum of 1). That is how it is ruled pretty much everywhere in WH. 2 casts of Enfeebling? -2S (or rather 2D3). 2 casts of Wildform? +2S. A GW and wildform? +3S. It works that way everywhere, why not here then?

In my opinion, most tournaments rule it as not stacking because they feel the frostheart (and HE in general) is overpowered and needs comping. And this is the way to do it. It has nothing to do with the actual rule itself.

Rod

[Curu Olannon]

Does Blizzard Aura stack?

No