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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:14 am 
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Hello everyone,

A brief introduction before I get to the meat of the article so you can get an idea of where I'm coming from and would like to go with this. I've been playing 40k for several years now (Space Wolves and Eldar) and am looking at making a switch to Fantasy, my experience with Fantasy thus far has been two introduction games one using Goblins the other proxy my friends Wood Elves for Dark Elves (I've been interested in either HE or DE for several months now and have made up my mind to go with the HE) and watching a dozen or so games being played as well. I know the general rules but not the finer points.
I have been keenly following 8th edition rumours and witnessed an 8th edition intro game at my local GW (not to mention lurking this site for a couple of weeks) and am looking at making a HE army suitable for 8th.

The theme I'm going for is a versatile force able to advance or hold back and counter attack with dominance in the magic phase, Im not looking for something to crush everyone I play against just something that will be a challenge to play and play against and suitable as a take all comers list.
My GW plays 1500pt games on 4x4 tables so I have constructed the following, I am just looking to make sure I'm heading in the right direction and not shooting myself in the foot (I learnt after my first army to plan and not just impulse buy everything shiny). I believe it adheres to the new FOC, I only caught a glimpse of it for several seconds when one of the staff members was showing me the new book.


Mage (165)
Level 2
The Seerstaff of Saphery
This guy is my offensive mage once I am familiar with the magic lores in the new rulebook I'll be able to adapt to any situation I need.

Mage (175)
Level 2
Annulian Crystal
This guy is my defensive mage most likely taking High Magic for Drain Magic and whatever else he rolls up, my aforementioned friends' new force is VC and if I am able to hinder him raising so many troops it'd be great.

Lothern Sea Guard x 20 (271)
Shield s
Musician
Standard Bearer
These guys are also adaptable and look great on paper I see them either guarding flanks or advancing possibly shooting along the way. I also think they'd fill the role of a locking unit so the SHs or PG can counter attack, I see this also being useful if the mage rolls up Courage. From my understanding of unit Champions I dont think they'd be worth the points in the LSG unit, what's the general consensus with this?

Lothern Sea Guard x 20 (271)
Shield s
Musician
Standard Bearer

Phoenix Guard x 10 (180)
Keeper of the Flame
Musician
Standard Bearer
I see these guys as being like the Striking Scorpions in the Eldar force, good WS, decent Str fairly resilient as far as elves go. They look like a good general combat unit.

Silver Helms x 10 (234)
Musician
Standard Bearer
Two reasons for these guys, I've read that 2+ save cav cannot march (not to mention I ran out of points for shields anyway) so to keep them as a fast unit - am I right in thinking heavy armour + cav + barding = 3+? The second reason is I'm thinking of buying 2 battalion boxes so I'll have the models anyway. The lack of High Helm is from lack of points.

Repeater Bolt Thrower xxx
Repeater Bolt Thrower xxx
These guys look awesome and once again fit in with the versatility theme.

Total 1496

So how does this look? Everything seems sound in my head at least but I'm not experienced enough to know if it'll work out or not.
Going over this it might be cheaper to buy everything individually than the battalions as the archers look very expensive for guys with no saves.
If the rumours of HEs being in the Isle of Blood is true I'll probably look at getting that when its released more LSG, plastic SMs and a cheap mini rule book, cant go wrong! :wink:

Thank you for reading.

*Edit* One thing I forgot to ask that is how to best protect the mages? I was thinking the LSG or the PG but they'll get crunched in the first round of CC wont they?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:33 am 
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they'll get crunched in the first round of CC wont they?


Yes. Ideally, you should have a unit or two that you don't going to send into combat, to put the mages in.

I'd also recommend the Banner of Sorcery on the Phoenix Guard as would give quite a significant boost to your own magic phase.

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I've read that 2+ save cav cannot march


I've read that this turned out to be a false rumour. Or did they play this way at GW?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:52 am 
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Get a lv 4 Mage.

Trust me, you'll want one. Lv 4 with Anullian and Lore of life/ Shadow can basically win you the Magic Phase. +5 to dispel, +1 Dice -1 enemy casting, Banner of Sorcery for + 1d3 so your average is 9 PD/turn.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:35 am 
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I'm terrible at quoting multiple people so I'll do it the old fashioned way.
Lathaon:
My original thoughts were a unit of White Lions to hide the mage in inside a wood it does seem to be an expensive baby sitter though. One thing I did notice with the 8th ed intro match I watched was at the start of the game the employee running the game rolled for each forest on the board and consulted a chart, one of the woods became poisonous and (not sure specifics) models entering it took a dangerous terrain test, the ones that survived though gained poison attacks. I dont know if this was something in 7th ed as well I never encountered it but its made me think twice about wanting to deploy inside it. Perhaps this was all just a scenario the employee himself made up I dont know. Also maybe the Woodsman rule will negate this?
I had also considered placing the mage/s with the RBTs but figured this would give warmachine/mage hunting units a massive easy target to prey on. Still an option depending on my opponent I guess.

I'm not sure about the 2+ on cav I didnt notice it during the intro match I saw, its a very small store there was about 8 people playing and I didnt have a good vantage point. On a side note a thing that may interest people, a mounted chaos unit was able to assault some HE archers who were atop a tower. The employee said the riders dismount and charge up the stairs to engage units in buildings. Maybe this was in 7th as well, these are the finer points I dont know but everyone at the table seemed surprised so I guess its new.

Eldareth:
I'd still take the lvl 2 mage as well right? Maybe free up some points by dropping it to level 1
+5 to dispel is pretty damn hot! I never liked taking expensive HQs in 40k and these two mages would end up taking what like 400pts? Is it acceptable in Fantasy to invest so much in a 1500pt battle or would this be for when I move to 2k+?

This would work out pretty good actually as Ive been reading some posts on this forum that BSB will be extra important and I wasnt sure if I could take a noble with BSB and have one of the regular mages be the General even though they have lower Ld but taking the Archmage would make for a simple solution. :)

I could drop the Silver Helms take a unit of Archers (and just last post I was saying they didnt appeal to me :roll: )and hide a mage in here this should free up the points needed to upgrade to an Archmage.

Thanks guys keep the opinions coming :D Seems like a part from a few minor tweaks the foundation is set.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:04 pm 
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Archmage and Mage might be a bit much for 1500pts... Just the Archmage, perhaps, and a bound item in case he fails to cast early on and you have a bunch of unused dice... Possibly an Archmage would be better than two mages because of the +dispel and because it's easier to protect just one character than two. Of course, failure to cast or dispel will be pretty bad without a second caster, though.

I can't really express any opinion on the woods as I don't know the rules for them yet.

I think they stopped allowing characters to join war machines... Guess it came with the combined profile idea.

About those knights - does that mean they lose the armour save bonuses from the horse and barding? And their mounts' attacks?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:45 pm 
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Ive started messing around modifying my list I ended up dropping the second mage and upgraded the first to an Archmage he looks like this atm
Archmage, Level 4, Annulian Crystal, Guardian Phoenix (325) - expensive but not much more so than what I was paying for the 2 lvl2s and I see its quite obvious now the additional levels for dispelling not to mention your points about hiding him make this guy the clear winner.

The mounts didnt get to attack, I'm not sure about the armour bonuses I would think they'd be lost too. Something was said about the weapons they carried preventing them from doing something... Maybe they lost the strength bonus for charging? Not being able to fight in ranks perhaps? (Though this doesnt seem likely everything seems to be able to fight in additional ranks now so perhaps it was the strength thing). Sorry I cant be more specific the employee was at the other end of an 8 foot table I had 3 little kids mucking around in front of me and a new guy asking for painting advice.
If it gives any clues they were playing a mission (good v evil but I think this is irrelevant as it was just to accommodate 8 people) it was a capturing buildings mission. There was a watch tower near the centre of the board slightly closer to the good side 2 or 3 other buildings along the good sides deployment zone with the evil forces going first as its an invasion and all. The cavalry unit were able to declare a charge on the archers who were up the top of the watch tower in the middle, the charge may have only needed to reach the edge of the building Im not sure as I dont recall hearing anything being said about any distances required to roll to make it up the tower. The archers died and the cav (I'm not familiar with the Chaos armies units I just hear their warriors are hardcore) unit held the building.

Another thing that seemed new to people was a hydra in close combat the employee said once per battle it could use a breath weapon in close combat. Why its only once per battle I dont know.

I could give a list of new things I saw if you'd like?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:00 pm 
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I could give a list of new things I saw if you'd like?


Sure. :)

I think the rumours have probably caught most of it, though.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:39 pm 
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Yea that's what I originally figured but might be something new, I'll list everything I saw anyway.

* ASF + Initiative granting rerolls to hit.
* Cav charge M + 3D6 taking the 2 highest.
* Infantry charge M + 2D6
* Spear men fought in 3 ranks
* There was some big guys (giants perhaps? They were skin coloured) they were 3 files wide and this was considered a full rank
* Something was said about characters not being safe on their own any more (I left the table and came back to find a DE sorceress who was on her own had been killed so I'm going to assume there was a rule like in previous editions of 40k where you couldn't target an Independent Character who was within a certain distance to a friendly unit? If so this mightve been removed.)
* The magic phase from what I could gather was the player who's turn it was would roll 2 dice this was their pool, they got the total number of dice whilst the other player gained a number of dispel dice equal to the lower of the die rolled. Then for each wizard players would roll a D6 on a roll of 6 they would gain an additional dice.
* To dispel a player would use the level of the nominated wizard in addition to whatever their dice roll was.
* The Hydra also has some stomp/impact attack. D6 str6 (may have been str 4 but think it was 6) hits. Not sure if this is each round of combat or just the first.
* The randomized forest effect at the start of the game.
* When a unit flees from close combat the standard bearer dies as he holds his ground trying to rally the troops - iirc it granted units a re-roll for failed leadership in CC.
* Fear doesnt do what it currently does a unit fighting against a unit that causes fear must pass a Ld test or fight with WS1

Think that's about it, most of it is probably stuff you've read in the rumours anyway. Not much happened in the game I think it was called top of turn 2 due to the shop closing. They're very tight with people reading the new rulebook until it is officially released so I can't just go in and read it. :(

I'm so keen to get started in Fantasy I might call up my mate and see if he'll come around tomorrow and bring his VCs and WEs so I can proxy them as HEs :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:28 pm 
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Aoitora wrote:
* When a unit flees from close combat the standard bearer dies as he holds his ground trying to rally the troops - iirc it granted units a re-roll for failed leadership in CC.


Ah, I don't think I knew this. So if you fail the roll he dies, but you get to re-roll so the unit might not flee after all?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:02 pm 
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Aoitora wrote:
Something was said about characters not being safe on their own any more (I left the table and came back to find a DE sorceress who was on her own had been killed so I'm going to assume there was a rule like in previous editions of 40k where you couldn't target an Independent Character who was within a certain distance to a friendly unit? If so this mightve been removed

Isn't there a 4+ LoS now for being close to a unit? In 6th you couldn't target solo characters easily but this was removed in 7th, I think because Mr Cavatore didn't like it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:24 pm 
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Lathaon
I think how it worked was you take your leadership test if you fail you get to re-roll from the banner but if you fail again the unit breaks and the banner-man dies holding his ground. I'm pretty sure they didn't die the first failed roll. Thinking back this guy might've been a BSB not just a regular upgraded banner I recall the Archers in the tower after being charged by the chaos cav able to re-roll leadership from a nearby banner (I dont think they had their own).

SpellArcher
I'm not sure mate if the rule was removed in 7th then I dont know why the employee said what he did. Maybe I miss heard and he said 'its not unsafe for a character to be on their own anymore'?

The employees themselves only had had the book a week or two so there's a chance they may have missed something.

Oh yea another thing pre-measuring on everything was fine. Including magic phase.
I don't like the idea of pre-measuring I haven't been learning to estimate distances all these years for that to be thrown out the window. I hope they'd don't pick this up for 40k it'll take away those hard decisions if you should shoot before assaulting or not fearing they'll kill the closer models and be out of charge range.

*Edit*

So my new list is looking like this


Archmage (325)
Level 4
Annulian Crystal
Guardian Phoenix

Lothern Sea Guard x 20 (271)
Shield
Musician
Standard Bearer

Lothern Sea Guard x 20 (271)
Shield
Musician
Standard Bearer

Archers x 10 (110)

Phoenix Guard x 10 (230)
Keeper of the Flame
Musician
Standard Bearer
Banner of Sorcery

Sword Masters of Hoeth x 6 (90)

Repeater Bolt Thrower
Repeater Bolt Thrower

Total 1497

Im thinking of giving the SM a go they have awesome fluff, I really like the fluff of everything in this list.

So I imagine the formation would look something like this

LSG PG LSG (the LSG might be positioned a bit further back if I'm worried about quick charges down my flanks).
SM (These guys floating around in the middle of the lines for cover and looking for opportune times to charge/counter attack).
RBT A RBT (these guys looking for somewhere at the back with elevation and clear firing lanes).

I should point out I am awful at movement in Fantasy my Eldar have really spoilt me with this being able to move 24" in a single turn any facing, any direction, flying over any obstacles.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:43 am 
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So my mate came over today I got to test the list out (Dwarves and WE turned into HE).
It was vs Vampire Counts. He took a named character on foot with a squad of graveguard, a vampire on a mount with some cav (7-8 strong) - wasnt blood knights but they had a 2+ save.
2 units of about 20 skeletons. A unit of ghouls a unit of dire wolves and 3 corpse carts (they each have necromancers in them :? ).

First turn shooting a couple of skellies died it was really pathetic, my mage was too far back to cast anything other than courage and drain magic (we both just stuck to our race lores I figure no point familiarizing myself with a soon to be outdated edition).
My friend corrected what I said previously on magic the player whos turn it is rolls 2 dice and the opponent gets dispel dice equal to the highest not lowest like I said earlier.

Anyway *nods to Eldareth* good call mate the Archmage went hardcore! Shut down lots of his spells. My friend also told me (he was playing in the trial game I watched) that IF causes miscasts now? That put me off throwing lots of dice into spells. Anullian Crystal was awesome.

The LSG performed pretty well but it was their ability to hold the line that was what I was most happy with. Both squads got 2 rounds of shooting off which may have killed 5 skellies between them.

The Archers made a poor showing not even close to earning their keep. (I didnt roll CoAA with the Archmage which was what I was hoping for).

Phoenix Guard charged some ghouls they did pretty good winning the combat they were later charged by Dire Wolves and still won the combat, only 3 ghouls remained now - I was rolling terribly to wound. They only died because the Archmage failed a terror test (we werent sure how Terror works in the new edition so we used 7th ed rules) and I think the cav chased him down. So I had to take a Ld test across the board and the only ones who failed of course were the PG who was the only unit still really in the fight, they got charged whilst fleeing and died. :(

SMs got charged by some summoned zombies and the cav unit. They took out 3 of the cav and a bunch of zombies and somehow stayed alive for another turn.

The bolt throwers did alright damage I dont think they made their points back but they provided the only reliable shooting.

I spent nearly twice as much in core as the 25% min so I think Ill drop the Seaguard (at least until I start looking at making 2k lists) into regular Spearmen and beef up the specials some more. A mobile mage would be a little more helpful too. :lol:

I'll definitely take SM and PG again I liked them.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:02 am 
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Did you win? :)

Also, did you just roll four different spells right away? If you roll a duplicate now, you can choose which spell to replace it with.

Did you get Flames of the Phoenix? Would be nice against his infantry blocks.

Quote:
IF causes miscasts now?


This is true. Though with High Magic and +4 to cast, you should only need 2 dice for most of them, maybe 3 dice for the top two. Could get away with casting your final spell with just one since it doesn't matter if you fail to cast at that point.

Quote:
The Archers made a poor showing not even close to earning their keep.


I think they're worth it just to protect a mage. Best against fast cavalry and lightly armoured threats. Witch Elves come to mind; with the stepping up rule, they'll be able to cut through a fair few of our troops and only Phoenix Guard and Dragon Princes will get ASF re-rolls against them. I guess you could also use them to take down a war machine if it has only one wound left or something.

Quote:
The bolt throwers did alright damage I dont think they made their points back but they provided the only reliable shooting.


What did you shoot?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:13 pm 
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No I lost, my opponent tells me after he got home he checked his list and was over 150pts over... yea that was helpful. =D>

I got Courage, Fury, Flames and Vaul's. I had heard the rumour that you get to pick if you roll a double but wasnt sure so just followed what it said in the HE book and re-rolled. In hindsight I should've dropped Vaul's for Saphery but I'll know this for next time.

I was able to Flames once and I put it on his Grave-guard. Something I wasnt sure about as this was my first game using magic, when I cast Flames he had 2 corpse carts within 24" which he said reduces my casting level by 2 or something along those lines. So I cast Flames on a 14 inc my casting level. He dispelled it at the start of his magic phase and not after he had cast the rest of his magic (I just looked it up now says to do it after casting normal spells). More finer points to learn. :p
He said he could attempt to dispel Drain Magic? :? I figured if he wanted to throw dice at doing that I wouldnt stop him.

Most of the time I was just using 2-3 to cast with and never had a problem. We were playing with a hybrid of rules, using what we knew of 8th edition and things we weren't sure about we used the 7th ed rules. This was so I could get a feel of how the HE list would play.

"Could get away with casting your final spell with just one since it doesn't matter if you fail to cast at that point." - Thats a good point and Drain Magic is simple enough with a lvl 4 Archmage.

He said his force was immune to psychology so I think it wasnt a good example of how the archers would play out as I couldn't attempt 25% casualties to force break tests. I'll give them a few more goes.
I've been thinking (list tweaking) with the Arch mage mounting him on a Great Eagle he comes in with the crystal and the 5+ ward save talisman at 375 so the 25% cap in 1500. How does this normally go? He'd be very mobile able to fly/march out of range of anything threatening him whilst also able to get into positions to cast. The eagle if Im not mistaken counts as a monstrous mount so he'd get a bit of extra protection from this with the randomized incoming hits.

The RBTs.... *sigh* Well it all started with deployment. We had built previously 2 houses and 2 towers so we used this for terrain as well as 3 hills. The odd hill was on the edge of my left flank and we alternated in positioning the rest. I placed a tower in my DZ he did the same opposite, I positioned a hill right in the middle of my DZ so he put the house right infront of it dividing the LOS down the middle more or less (in hind sight I shoulda grabbed the other hill and placed it somewhere else in my DZ instead of looking for revenge and placing a house in his DZ trying to divide his forces up). So when it came time to deploy I placed one RBT on the hill covering the centre and left flank. I then placed the second RBT on the other side of my tower towards my left, it was able to see across the board and I figured both RBTs could assist each other. He deployed his heavy cav unit on the opposite side and after the first turn the angles were never there to shoot at them really. He kept talking up the corpse carts so I shot at that 2-3 times (never killed it) I used the multi shot. My other RBT I fired at skellies with the multi shot, I stopped many of his spells out of about I dunno 6 casts he'd only get 2 through. Hey wait a sec was he able to keep attempting to raise skeletons over and over?
Anyway after I saw how easily he could replenish the skeletons I swapped over to the Dire Wolves (turns out theyre kinda garbage and my elves showed them what for in CC later). So I was an idiot for not focus firing, I wasnt sure how TLOS worked (I guess its exactly the same as 40k but we just went w/ 7th ed for this) so I was going with my understanding of 7th ed and not focusing the Corpse Cart with the second RBT as it wasnt elevated to see over the skeletons positioned infront of it.
So I was foolish with target priority so thats my fault. His Grave Guard and cav were out of LOS pretty much the whole time so I learnt from this to deploy them last if possible (old instincts from 4th ed 40k took over with deploying 'heavy' first :lol: )

I also have to learn to judge assault threat ranges better it just feels different to 40k I guess with my unfamiliarity with the rules so that'll come in time.

I've doubled checked a few things he said (made me roll to hit with Fury of Khaine) and the fact he was 150+pts over I dont feel so bad for the loss. He doesn't teach slowly but I guess you learn from a bloody nose just as fast as someone holding your hand and showing you.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:58 pm 
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Quote:
I got Courage, Fury, Flames and Vaul's. I had heard the rumour that you get to pick if you roll a double but wasnt sure so just followed what it said in the HE book and re-rolled. In hindsight I should've dropped Vaul's for Saphery but I'll know this for next time.


Oh, if it says that in the army book then I suppose we have to re-roll. Maybe they'll update that in the errata...

Quote:
when I cast Flames he had 2 corpse carts within 24" which he said reduces my casting level by 2 or something along those lines.


I don't know the rules for those.

Quote:
He dispelled it at the start of his magic phase and not after he had cast the rest of his magic (I just looked it up now says to do it after casting normal spells).


Ah, I actually thought it was supposed to be done at the start. I'll have to remember that... :lol:

Quote:
He said he could attempt to dispel Drain Magic?


When you cast it, he could. Not in his magic phase though as it isn't RiP.

Quote:
I've been thinking (list tweaking) with the Arch mage mounting him on a Great Eagle he comes in with the crystal and the 5+ ward save talisman at 375 so the 25% cap in 1500. How does this normally go? He'd be very mobile able to fly/march out of range of anything threatening him whilst also able to get into positions to cast. The eagle if Im not mistaken counts as a monstrous mount so he'd get a bit of extra protection from this with the randomized incoming hits.


Once you come up against enemy war machines, you will probably realise that any kind of montrous mount makes a mage extremely vulnerable. There's no getting out of range of a cannon. Also, from what I've heard, eagles don't work that way - you count it as one model with the rider's toughness and the mount's wounds. The only protection you get from it is +1 for being mounted...

Quote:
Hey wait a sec was he able to keep attempting to raise skeletons over and over?


I think they're still allowed to do that.

Quote:
I wasnt sure how TLOS worked (I guess its exactly the same as 40k but we just went w/ 7th ed for this)


From what I've heard, you can shoot whatever you can see, but units in between provide soft cover unless you're in a position to shoot over them.

Quote:
made me roll to hit with Fury of Khaine


It causes 2D6 hits, not 2D6 attacks. Hopefully he didn't know better...


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