Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:51 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:52 am
Posts: 2077
I've been playing with SH darts for a while now and I'm liking them more over Reavers.

They're about the same cost, hits much harder, survives many more things, and effectively the same size in 3x2.

They kill other chaff nicely because they outrange them in most cases and hit harder with ASF S5 on the charge, better than Reavers when you put them on a flank, and can actually help you with combat.

Thoughts?

_________________
Image
Click the banner to see my 8th Ed. High Elves Tactica!
HERO's Gaming Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:29 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12238
Location: Otherworld
I used to prefer Reavers for the flexibility but by the end of 25% lords and heroes I think Helms because of all the elf shooting.

50% and End Times?

Wouldn't like to say.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:34 am
Posts: 357
Vanguard, Free Reform and the ability to move normally after regrouping are what make me still take reavers.
Minimum sized SH unit is good chaff and anti-chaff, but when I take chaff it's usually for their mobility.
(My anti-chaff unit is usually a pair of chariots)
And reavers still excel at this in HE core list.

But what actually keeps me from using more SH 'darts' is because SH box is now direct sales product only. #-o


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:06 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
These are two different units with different roles to play. These roles may overlap but if you think that SH do everything better you might simply not utilize the options Reavers give you. Check out these two excellent articles on fast cavalry uses to see what this type of a unit can do:

Dark Riders can do it better - by KillerK

The death of chaff? Say it ain't so... - by Hinge

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:28 am
Posts: 78
Those two articles are really good at explaining a fundamental part of the game. Not all units are meant to earn their points back.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:00 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12238
Location: Otherworld
Killer K's article is about how to squeeze the most out of Fast Cav. I'm guessing it's from slightly earlier in 8th edition but the points still hold. Hinge's is more about how to adapt use of fast cav to the elf shooting meta at the end of 25% (thanks for posting that SM). He makes solid points and I agree with most of it. However, when he cites the number of shots needed to wipe out a unit of Wolf Riders, I feel this is slightly by the by as you likely only need to kill enough to force a Ld 6 Panic test, which they will fail on average. Elf Fast Cavalry are more resistant to this but then again, it's easier to kill Reavers (or especially Glade Riders) because they lack the 4+ save. It's clear that Reavers are far from useless against heavy shooting but their advantages over small Helm units are less pronounced here and their disadvantages more so IMHO.

SpellArcher wrote:
50% and End Times?

Wouldn't like to say.


But I'll have a punt...

:)

There used to be a rule of thumb amongst several players here that you needed at least three re-directors. My feeling is, from facing previously the kind of flyer-heavy armies that are popular under the 50%, is that two may be the sweet spot now. That's what I'll likely be going with in my first tournament with the new caps, next month. But some armies work differently of course and could well benefit from more. It's a common belief that re directors are useless against flyers for example but this is not always true. For instance you can screen a unit of infantry that's about to be charged with Fast Cav, such that a flyer can't contact the block. He can charge the cav, kill them and overrun but then then the infantry combat happens in your turn, which has implications for magic, supporting charges etc..

I'd be interested to hear what guys think the impact specifically of the 50% has been on Helms vs Reavers.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:16 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
I am always curious why people insist on this A vs B when you can have both, in particular when these two units are really different from each other.

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:21 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12238
Location: Otherworld
You can SM but you might for example favour two units of Helms and one of Reavers if you expect to face a lot of BS shooting but one of Helms and two of Reavers if you don't. The reason these units are compared is that both are Core (and careful Core spending can be vitally important IMHO, especially with 50% Lords and Heroes) and arguably have a lot more in common with one another than LSG for example, more of the roles overlap.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:26 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
Sure but the way Hero posted his question and the way similar topics were framed (Swordmasters vs Lions for example) it is always about one or another but never both.

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:38 am 
Offline
Master of Brushes
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:41 pm
Posts: 1206
Location: Poznan/Hannover
Because only in msu playstyle you have got enough points to take both swords and lions and it can be reasonable

_________________
Image

Galharen's painting blog

The winged hussar host - army blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:57 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
They are two very different units with two very different application areas.

The TL;DR I think is that Darts are better area deterrents and capable of operating (somewhat) individually whereas Reavers are better defensive area controllers and almost always an element to help the rest of your army. Not all armies need Helms, not all armies need Reavers. Some can utilize both. I've run almost all variations of this core setup, ranging from 3x10 reavers to one big block of Helms to Helms + 2x Reavers, Helms + 2x darts, all-dart core and multiple mixes (the Dragonlist I ran last year had one of each, for example).

I have yet to understand fully how the 50% impacts these choices. Reavers seem to be less important since blocks are even rarer now and flyers/cowboys are more popular. Also, MSU shooting is becoming an issue but I think neither darts nor reavers make much of an impact here in traditional lists (see my WE BR from BSK last year for example, Dart was shot off T1 without my opponent sacrificing much to make that happen).

It should be noted that Furion's a big proponent of the darts and he has an extremely aggressive playstyle. Perhaps darts are better suited for this.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:12 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12238
Location: Otherworld
I've been seeing a single block of Core infantry in quite a few 50% lists. Not so much High Elves maybe but the usual desire for a large unit of Helms (or sometimes Archers or even Spears) takes up much of the Core allowance, which is why there is often a tight choice between small units of Reavers and of Helms. I ran both alongside each other for a long time. Yes they are different but there is overlap, as between Spears and Archers say. As a WE player, Helms are more annoying than Reavers because shooting them off quickly requires Waywatchers who would like to be doing something else.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:41 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Indeed SA, MSU core is unusual for us. Whereas WE for example can do this with glade guards, our Archers simply aren't that strong so MSU'ing them up is often working against their intended purpose, seeing as spells like Blades of Aiban and Hand of Glory fail to deliver the same impact as they do on a horde.

As for Darts and Reavers it's important to remember that at some point you get diminishing returns. One dart on either side of the table maintains flexibility and area denial for example whereas a third dart has no "natural" place to go. Likewise, you can only have so many reavers before you run out of points to pay for the things in your army that actually deal damage.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:52 am
Posts: 2077
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Sure but the way Hero posted his question and the way similar topics were framed (Swordmasters vs Lions for example) it is always about one or another but never both.


SM vs. Lions is easier to answer IMO, because both are distinctive combat units.

Chaff from core is a much harder debate! Recently, I've switched to SH darts and haven't switched back. Maybe I'm an aggressive player, maybe I don't have much shooting in my list designs, but I find the S5 on the charge and durability to be much more worthwhile.

_________________
Image
Click the banner to see my 8th Ed. High Elves Tactica!
HERO's Gaming Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:11 pm 
Offline
9th Age Moderator

Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm
Posts: 1906
A related question is how you field them. Against general opinion, it seemed, I never rated reaver bows so fielded cheap 5-man spear units with a musician to enhance their core role of fleeing and rallying. Given their spears they make decent enough combat troops on a charge into light chaff or sometimes into a flank/rear, to the extent that I've toyed with giving them banners (but never rated that enough to do so).

By contrast, it is harder to get helms into position and I've never bothered with a musician. But you can field cheap 5-man squads for 115, which are basically heavy chaff, or you can invest an extra c.40pts and have 6-man darts with champ and banner. This unit fulfills so many roles and is reasonably cheap, and I'v started using these units instead of 5-man no command...but costs as much as two min units of reavers...

So it isn't even as simple as a straight reaver vs helms debate for me, but rather 2xreavers vs helms. And on this I'm not sure, because certainly I find there are games where my reavers don't feel to have a role (e.g. vs shooting lists) but equally there are games where I wish dearly I had more chaff. In an all-comers list with a varied meta, given finite points to spend from core, I'm still undecided on which I prefer.

_________________
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:28 am
Posts: 78
After having started to equip my Reavers with bows I'm seeing much greater flexibility in them.
At first I was hesitant since I felt it would only increase their cost and until that point I had only used them for a cheap sacrificial unit, but after giving them bows I'm finding their use increase tremendously. I always build my list to be able to handle all types of types of armies even though I might not play against them. Hence the bows grant me a useful way of dealing with stuff like fanatics and such.

On the other hand it is very tempting to try your idea of using Silver Helms, simply due to their armour save and lances. Sometimes I have found myself really wanting to charge my Reavers into the side or rear of a unit just to get the 2-3 combat resolution, but fearing they might provide more combat resolution in their deaths has kept me from trying that.

I don't think there is an easy answer, but Fast Cavalry, Vanguard and the option of bows does provide some unique possibilities regarding Reavers that Silver Helms cannot do. In that sense Silver Helms are more "dedicated" to their role as a close combat unit.

Whether you condone the maneuver or not, there is also the option of railroading. With Reavers you can do it but with Silver Helms you have to wheel your way into the position every time. I know some players frown upon it but I see it as a legitimate way of dealing with stuff(Steamtank, Deamon train) with random movement or slow movement(hellcannon).

Another matter is the environments we all play in, I don't play tournaments so I don't know if small single models like fanatics are prevalent in the tournie meta. So maybe my joy over the bow option doesn't fit your environment.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:35 am
Posts: 51
My thought is silverhelms are shock troops, reavers /w spears are flankers, reavers /w bows are skirmishers, reavers /w bow&spear are flankers&skirmishers


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:19 pm
Posts: 378
From my point of view, I think the optimal choice is not one or the other but a mix. I find that 2 Reaver units for each Silver Helm unit works quite well. However, 1 to 1 ratio would likely also work well.

With the increased incidents of lone monsters and lone character models, the composition of a chaff cavalry unit has changed somewhat. I'm now of the view that they should contain 6 models, a champion, and a musician/standard bearer (for Silver Helms and Dragon Prices, usually full command is better). This composition allows these units to easily hold up such models for an entire game turn when you charge in a Chaff Missile formation (vs a lone monster) or a Chaff Wing (vs a lone character model). With their long change ranges, three such cavalry chaff units can effectively make a very large portion of the table an area they would prefer not to fly/march into, which slows up their advance rate.

With the increased model count and command, they can still complete their usual chaff roles, just a little more effectively.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:52 am
Posts: 2077
RedPanda wrote:
My thought is silverhelms are shock troops, reavers /w spears are flankers, reavers /w bows are skirmishers, reavers /w bow&spear are flankers&skirmishers


Really? Because I view SH as flankers, because they can actually stay around after their charge to apply their combat res + flank bonus rather than die from retaliation. Reavers for me are skirmishers and/or long eagles. Nothing more.

_________________
Image
Click the banner to see my 8th Ed. High Elves Tactica!
HERO's Gaming Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:25 am
Posts: 251
So, Hero I think that the answer to this would depend on the opponent and your list.

Against an army like OnG, DE, WoC, DoC and armies that are likely to employ their own light chaff I would use Reavers. Because they can shoot the enemy chaff while also roadblocking other things. And they can flee and come back to shoot the next turn and roadblock again. Reavers obviously benefit from being fast cavalry, which can give you an advantage against certain armies in the deployment phase and chaff warfare.

Against armies like OK, BM, Dwarves and such I would use the SH dart. These armies are unlikely to employ much chaff that the reavers can shoot, and you dont have a large amount of units that you would want to continuously roadbloack. SH's here would work because you can use them to both take out an enemy 'hard' chaff (think copter or a wolf thing from Ogres) and also flank an enemy unit without just giving up five points of res like Reavers do.


Obviously, there are many more considerations but this is a general idea of what I look at when making this decision. If my list has two eagles than I may decide the SH's are ok. Just something to think about.

_________________
i hate people who blame losses on dice, when they lost to me.

God created man, then he came up with a better idea


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:51 pm
Posts: 563
In the new 50% meta I think both are pretty obsolete. WoC are taking mostly single models, the majority of which fly, and all the elf armies shoot well enough to make the difference marginal at best. Against armies like Skaven it is again mostly pointless as neither unit has the ability to hold a unit of assassinate a Character. And most other armies are moving away from small chaff units to single characters who hit heavier, more manueverable and not likely to panic.

So ultimately it comes down to what is it that you actually expect from this unit? If its re-directing/blocking they are of limited use. Flanking single characters? Usually they are mounted with different I stats to attack both champion and unit.

_________________
I saw Karaz-a-Karak...and then I burned it to the ground.

Baleanoon and House Morhathel march once again for the Glory of Khaine and his chosen King.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group