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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:06 am 
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In a big game against Skaven I'd take some sort of deathstar with the BoTWD and it's quite a hard cookie for them to crack unless they land the 13th.

But I'm struggling to come up with a list for a small 1k army. I've many ideas but they all seem reliant on 1 model or something going right.

I'm wondering what sort of lists and tactics people have been using in low point games against Skaven?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:49 am 
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Swordmasters. When they don't have the points for all their nasty stuff, swordmasters rip through rats like nothing else, they just can't handle them.

Archers, too. A good amount of arrows, and you can really thin the ranks. They are also quite good in combat against skaven... even stormvermin.

At this level, getting big models is risky since they cost so much. Better to put lots of models on the table, because your troops are just plain better than his. Swordmasters and archers are high damage output, and relatively cheap for elves. Back that up with a death mage to snipe general/bsb and cast doom and darkness, and they'll all run away.

Without all their toys, skaven aren't that hard to deal with.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:35 am 
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Tullarion wrote:
Swordmasters. When they don't have the points for all their nasty stuff, swordmasters rip through rats like nothing else, they just can't handle them.

Archers, too. A good amount of arrows, and you can really thin the ranks. They are also quite good in combat against skaven... even stormvermin.

At this level, getting big models is risky since they cost so much. Better to put lots of models on the table, because your troops are just plain better than his. Swordmasters and archers are high damage output, and relatively cheap for elves. Back that up with a death mage to snipe general/bsb and cast doom and darkness, and they'll all run away.

Without all their toys, skaven aren't that hard to deal with.


Ah good ideas!

What would you take as the rare choice?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:30 pm 
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Also the humble spear elf is outstanding for killing rats. 21 rerolling attacks that ASF? Outstanding for butchering slaves! I'd even sneak in a loremaster:

something like:


Loremaster w. Gem of Sunfire = 250

25x Spear Elves w. FC = 255

5x Swordmasters - 65
5x Swordmasters - 65
5x Swordmasters - 65

3x Bolt Throwers - 210


90 points to spare! Loremaster pops gem for a 3d6 fireball on a hell pit if he ends up bringing one.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:05 pm 
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I thought about the loremaster, but was worried that he's a quarter of the points.

That said, when he gets a good phase, the number of magic missiles he can throw out is disgusting, and the gem is a great way to amplify a fireball. Even if he ends up not getting much off, he can be a fighty character in a pinch, though that's probably worst case scenario.

I like Malossar's list, but personally am biased in favor of archers over spearmen in this instance, due to their ability to kill at range, and the fact that they fight just as good as the spearmen (though at one less rank).

I'd say a good alternate to Mal's list would be:

Loremaster: GoS, Dragonbane Gem (he likes gems)

2x 15 Archers: Standard, Musician

3x 5 Swordmasters

3 Bolt Throwers

Should mess rats up real good.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:25 pm 
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I do like the Lore master, solid choice. My only worry is getting splatted by a WLC which is more likely without any ward save.

Is 3 bolt throwers the way to go? What about the Phoenix or Eagles for some flanking?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:57 pm 
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He should have look out sir, so I wouldn't worry about the WLC. Honestly, they are really random. They are just as likely to do almost nothing or blow up or shoot their own rats. But, if they get lucky, there's not much to do against it anyway.

That said, I think they are great targets for soul blight.

And I definitely agree with Malossar's call on bolt throwers. You don't really want to redirect, you've got better combat blocks. You do want to thin down the hordes, and three bolt throwers are brutal at 1000.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:21 pm 
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I'm still thinking about this list :lol:

I think Archers vrs Spear men is a tricky one. I've never had luck with bows but most armies I've played were T4++. I can see how a unit of 20+ spearmen would tear up a skaven slave unit though. Maybe go best of both and get Seaguard?

I've had second thoughts with the Loremaster. Without the BoH I don't know how reliable he is going to be. He does have the combat ability though. I don't think my opponent has a hell pit as well at least not for the 1k.

I'm leaning towards a Lvl 4 but I don't know what lore is most useful against Skaven.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:48 pm 
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As far as the toss up between archers and spearmen, consider this: spearmen fight in four ranks. Archers fight in three ranks and shoot 30 inches. For the loss of five attacks (if you go 20 in a 5x4), you get 15 shots per turn. That's going to take its toll. By the time the rats make it to you, that should thin out the hordes enough to make the loss of five attacks negligible. Plus, archers are still martial prowess with ASF... they can fight, and Skaven are their preferred target.

Seaguard are an awful compromise. For a lot more points, you get a Spearman with a 24" bow. I'd rather pay far fewer points to have an extra turn of shooting, honestly. Also, Seaguard usually want to move... and bows don't like moving. I say if you're going core infantry, archers are the only ones to go with, and against skaven, they pull their weight, both in and out of combat.

The loremaster may seem less useful than a level four until you realise the sheer number of magic missiles he has access to. He may only be getting a +2, but you have so many options of what you can do each turn, and that firepower can really bring their numbers down.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:39 pm 
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It's not as clear cut as that though.

Realistically you're getting 2 turns of shooting tops. 30 shots, 15 hits, 7 dead rats. Which is about 14 points if you're shooting slaves, probably something like 30 whole points if you're shooting clanrats. For the roughly 200pts that spearman/archer unit costs you'll get 100 slaves in return. 7 dead rats don't make a difference against a good skaven list.

The reverse also matters. When you get into combat, you get more bodies (since spearmen are cheaper). Which means more ranks, so you actually have a chance of breaking steadfast. You get more attacks, both for the extra rank and more bodies. And, you'll lose fewer elves. A 5+ isn't much, but against your typical skaven s3 attack it means 1/3 of all wounds fails. Which makes a difference.

As for lores, high is actually quite good. Hitting all models in a unit @s4 is a big thing vs rats. Especially if you do it two or three times in a row.

Rod

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:54 pm 
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Good points as always... particularly about the armor, but I'm not sure the cheapness really matters. For every 9 archers, you get 10 spearmen... that's not exactly extra ranks. Also, the advantage of shooting is that he can't hit me back, plus I'm shooting every turn, the only time I'm not shooting, is because I'm hitting him in close combat. Again, though, the armor is a great thing to have.

High is quite good. There's a lot of spells in it that can be a big pain for rats. It's worth looking at. Just keep in mind the Loremaster's toolbox.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:14 am 
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There's not one clear answer in this I think. At higher points levels I would probably always opt for archers. Especially in an all-commers list. But 1000pts and lower is always a bit a different case.

Things I would consider @1000pts:
- yes, it's only 10 spearmen for every 9 archers. But 25 spearmen vs 22 archers makes a difference. It's 5 ranks vs 4, and it's only 3 wounds from 4 vs 3. 3 wounds which you're more likely to suffer since you have no armour.
- fewer really good shooting targets. I think a skaven player will likely bring fewer toys (weapon teams are ideal targets for smaller shooting units for instance). Also, a decent chance all the good targets will be in combat relatively fast.


Of course, there is no reason you can't just bring both... It really depends on the list. Do you want a shooting or a combat oriented list.

I definitely agree with you on the loremaster. He's seriously powerful at low points. The amount of magic missiles he can throw out is very big. And with fewer units on the table his effectiveness goes up relatively speaking.

Also, and that's a big thing, Strength in Numbers does not apply when making a LD test on your unmodified LD. Which means that for spirit leech, the skaven player tests with a 7 at best. Which can be painful for him. And vs skaven, if you manage to remove the general then half the work is done. Even more so if you also take out the BSB. He'll start losing LD tests all over the place (LD5 for slaves with SiN is still not very high for instance).

Rod

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:00 pm 
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Do you think it's better to target the general or BSB first?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:47 am 
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Difficult to say in general. I would go for whichever I could kill first.

If the general is a grey seer on bell I would go for the BSB first. The bell gives magic resistance, which makes death a lot less useful. If you can get his general, you take his LD down 2 points on average I think. And for stuff like slaves, it takes them from great to pretty useless. steadfast on LD 5 isn't really something to be proud of, even with a reroll.

But already getting rid of the BSB helps. The thing with skaven is that once they start running, their LD goes down significantly. Since you have no ranks when fleeing they don't get Strength in Numbers. Which drops the big units 3 points in LD. And without a reroll you're bound to fail a LD test every now and then, even at LD 8 or 9.

A side benefit is that it is also where the points are. Trying to get points by killing off their units doesn't take you very far. You can spend a big part of the game working through 100 slaves to only net you 200pts...

Rod

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:53 am 
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I actually had this battle and took:
10x sword master with blade lord
10x sword master with blade lord
25 spears with FC
Loremaster with GoS
3x RBT

My opponent had approx:
Doomwheel
WLC
40 slaves
40 slaves
40 clan rats with FC shield
Warlord with GW, Iron Icon, ToP
Chieftan BSB, ToE, Charmed
Warlock lvl 2 with Doomrocket


I had first turn so decided to try get rid of the Doom wheel and manage to deal 4 wounds to it with combo of RBT and some magic missiles. However on Skaven turn 1 he fires the WLC which kills 13 spearmen and causes them to panic and I failed the LD roll. In fact I fail to rally them the next 3 turns and they eventually run off the board...

Doom wheel dies eventually and i start work on attacking the slaves with RPT which causes minimal wounds. His unit of clanrats moves in front of my sword masters with loremaster which allows me to try a 3D6 GoS fireball which he dispelled with double 6's..... He fires the Doom rocket with 4D6 and kills all 10 sword masters lol. Loremaster escapes with LoS! unharmed and the blade lord takes the hit. I try to cast Spirit Leech and do take out his lvl 2 and eventually I rejoin the other sword master unit. Mean while the RBT's are firing at a slave unit because clan unit is behind a rock. The WLC managed to take out a RBT.

I get close to this clan unit whilst hiding in a forest but for 3 turns I fail to land spirit leech with 4-5 dice as he manages to dispel it every time even without his lvl 2. He also failed to charge twice against my unit. He is charging into the forest which would negate his steadfast. When we finally made it into combat his Warlord and Chieftan just wiped the floor with the sword masters. It was quite shocking how good the warlord is for the points. I tried to direct attacks on the Warlord and Chieftan but they survived and the return attack took out about 6 sword masters which caused me to lose combat.

So I lost pretty bad but it was really that WLC and the Doom rocket that caused the problems.

I don't like to say I lost due to bad luck. I had some shocking rolls with magic and not being able to rally LD 8 4x in a row. However that Warlord and Chieftan were just too strong for a 10 man unit to handle. My only hope was to have landed those spirit leeches.

Well GG.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:53 am 
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Man, I think it was a mistake to spirit leach the warlock, especially since it had already fired its doom rocket. I would have gone for the warlord (assuming you were in range).

I also think that no bolt thrower shots should have gone into the slaves until the lightning cannon was down. With no warlord, the swordmasters should have been able to annihilate any skaven combat. It was bad luck about the spearmen... no helping that, I guess. But I sure wish that they were two units of archers instead. Two separate targets, and they can shoot, which could have put wounds on the WLC, Doomwheel or plinked off some stray rats.

It's a difficult matchup. At 1000 points, skaven can easily afford all the toys they need to be strong (warlord/BSB/slaves), plus can still afford some of their crazier toys (WLC, Doomwheel, Doom Rocket). We can barely cover core and a character, with just enough left to keep from getting slaughtered (hopefully). We can't afford any of our cool stuff at that point level.


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