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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:24 am 
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Hey guys,

I am sorry to ask this. I looked but I could not find how the bus works. Is there any thread you can give me or simply explain it to me?

I am intrigued because I read about having mages in the second rank. Can they still cast normally? How does this work?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:23 am 
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A bus in Warhammer terms is a mounted unit whose real use is in defending the characters who are in that unit (riding the bus as it were).

The major rules to remember here are that command models (standard, musician, champ) always go in the front rank of the unit. The only exception to this is in CC where a character can make way to the front rank if he wants to (see BRB pp.92).

Characters are generally placed in the front rank of a unit, but in a unit that is say 5-wide, if there are already 2 character models in the front rank alongside the 5 command models, the extra characters go in the 2nd rank until that rank is full. Generally you want to try and work it such that choppy characters go in the front and the squishy mages end up in the second rank (see BRB pp.97).

Mages can still cast as normal with the usual restrictions that apply to whatever spell they are casting i.e. line of sight, forward arc, etc.

As an example of a HE bus unit, you could have a unit of Silver Helms with command and a mounted Prince, BSB and mage. The Prince and BSB would go in the front rank along with the command models from the unit and the mage will likely go somewhere in the second rank - not the edge of the unit though as he can then be hit in CC if they get flanked.

You can also do the same thing with infantry blocks but the term 'bus' usually refers to a cavalry unit.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:03 am 
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Thank you very much for the help!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:58 am 
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John Rainbow wrote:
A bus in Warhammer terms is a mounted unit whose real use is in defending the characters who are in that unit (riding the bus as it were).

The major rules to remember here are that command models (standard, musician, champ) always go in the front rank of the unit. The only exception to this is in CC where a character can make way to the front rank if he wants to (see BRB pp.92).

Characters are generally placed in the front rank of a unit, but in a unit that is say 5-wide, if there are already 2 character models in the front rank alongside the 3 command models, the extra characters go in the 2nd rank until that rank is full. Generally you want to try and work it such that choppy characters go in the front and the squishy mages end up in the second rank (see BRB pp.97).

Mages can still cast as normal with the usual restrictions that apply to whatever spell they are casting i.e. line of sight, forward arc, etc.

As an example of a HE bus unit, you could have a unit of Silver Helms with command and a mounted Prince, BSB and mage. The Prince and BSB would go in the front rank along with the command models from the unit and the mage will likely go somewhere in the second rank - not the edge of the unit though as he can then be hit in CC if they get flanked.

You can also do the same thing with infantry blocks but the term 'bus' usually refers to a cavalry unit.


FixT.
Some people like to go 3 wide especially if you have Crown of Command - giving you more tactical options.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:54 pm 
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pk-ng wrote:

FixT.
Some people like to go 3 wide especially if you have Crown of Command - giving you more tactical options.


But you lose the rows bonus. Which scenarios would recommend such formation?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:17 pm 
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It depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you want a character to be in the second rank and have command models then going 3 wide is ok if you don't need the rank bonus - a unit like archers that won't see combat could deploy like this for example.

If you do want to get into CC but still want to go 3 wide then you need some help. An item like the Crown of Command which makes the unit stubborn, or a unit of White Lions who are already stubborn can do this. You can also make it work with other units like Silver Helms if you are careful about what you run into and don't ever need the rank bonus.

Going three wide is also an option for smaller units who you want to get smaller frontage and who don't have rank bonus anyway. Instead of deploying a unit of 9 Silver Helms 5 wide you could go 3 wide. They don't really lose a lot as +1 rank bonus isn't a huge amount to lose. On the plus side it allows you to focus a lot more attacks in a single area - say you charge and there is a mage in the front rank. A 3-wide formation with our martial prowess rule allows you to put a lot more attacks onto that mage than if you went 5-wide.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:09 pm 
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Sounds very good!
Now my other question. I want to find a way to move fast two AM behind enemy lines. I thought about using GE but they become vulnerable. What do you think about a unit of 6 SH with FCG?? Maybe there is no need to put the full command and I should just put the six to avoid shooting.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:07 pm 
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You could try a shadow armor loremaster in shadow warriors... that can throw a wrench into a few enemy plans.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:18 pm 
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The thing is I want the Shadow/death combo


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:27 am 
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The loremaster could cast miasma, then use smoke and mirrors to get your death mage back where he's scouted.

Purple Sun into a unit that just got miasma'ed for initiative could be really ugly depending on who it was.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:13 am 
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Tullarion wrote:
The loremaster could cast miasma, then use smoke and mirrors to get your death mage back where he's scouted.

Purple Sun into a unit that just got miasma'ed for initiative could be really ugly depending on who it was.

Looks great in theory. But there are a lot of places where that could go wrong I think. You would need to be able to scout to a good position. Get 2 spells cast (without your opponent dispelling one or both of them). Actually have the mage and loremaster be withing 18'' of eachother. Not have your opponent kill the shadow warrior + loremaster bunker. Actually have purple sun, have it move a decent distance and not have it misfire. And probably a few more I can't think of.

It's a nice gimmick. And it will work (sometimes) against new players. But against a good opponent, there are just too many things that can go wrong with it to base a strategy off.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:17 pm 
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Oh, I don't think it's great or anything, either, jus t possible.

He wants two archmages in the rear of his opponent's army to cast spells, and without gimmicks you need a healthy silver helm bus to do it quickly. By the time you've put as many models as you need to make it a good body guard, plus BotWD BSB, and probably a cav prince just to make it worth it... you're not talking about putting two archmages into the backfield, you're trying to get you're whole army in the backfield. To do that, your opponent's army has to be removed... which sort of defeats the purpose of trying to get the mages there in the first place. That's why I went sneaky gimmick route.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:28 pm 
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What about two 8SH FCG in ranks of 3 having the mages on the 2nd line. In my army I will have GE and Ellyrian reavers to distract. I am considering to look for the weak flank in the army and put there both units. Maybe some dragon princes to cover. 5 of them might stand one round against something aggressive. Then, having the AM behind, might help me to boost them and finish the job, while having a deadly Death/Shadow combo behind their lines.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:42 pm 
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You could do that, but BotWD can only cover one unit, and if you don't use it, then any miscast is going to hit every silver helm in the unit, because the mage is in the center. Those units are also awfully small to get any use put of shadow, which doesn't need to be that close to begin with. Death does need to be closer, though.

I would suggest one bus with both mages and BotWD, and maybe some flanking units of 9 helms in 3x3 if that's what you fancy.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:57 pm 
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That sounds actually really good. but then it's literally the whole army. I wish to find a way to redirect the fire and attacks in order to give the flying AMs a chance to destroy by the sides. It should be a similar threat, but I cannot find what.

btw, If I keep the mages protected with cover of either scenery or units, I could get a fair chance in doing so.
let's say I'm far from fire (5+ to hit), to wound would be 5-4 with normal range weapons (T4 from GE), AS6+ if its low str fire, Special Ward 4+ would give a probability of hitting of: 4% - 17% (in case of real fire like RBT). For the cannons, catapults and so on, I might be screwed, but those are easier to avoid I think. With those chances, in the best case scenario, 20 shots give a 50% chance of killing one of them. With the worst case, the chance for those same 20 shots is 5%. After that, the mages will be behind, covered from fire, with 2 GE and 2 units of 5 ellyrian to redirect. Having them behind, makes it possible to survive and destroy.

Also, those calculations are made without any cover. With cover my chances of surviving improve.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:36 am 
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Yeah, I doubt anything short of a stardragon is going to distract your opponent from shooting his entire army at a lone flying death archmage setting up on his flank for a very obvious purple sun or general/BSB snipe.

Cover is great and all, but it doesn't save you from cannons (dwarf, empire, ogre, daemon, skaven), or stone throwers (dwarf, daemon, warrior, O+G, skaven) or trueflight arrows or mortars or fanatics or manglers or abominations or doomwheels or pump wagons or spawn... you get the idea.

The only way to "safely" get an archmage (much less a pair of them) to your opponent's flank is to bring the rest of the army with you, hence the silverhelm bus which, as you said, is literally the whole army.

One thing you could do is bring the eagledeathmage with an eagle noble with charmed shield or golden crown and park him in front. Stops cannons. Doesn't stop trueflight or the rest of it, but that's one less thing.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:55 am 
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What is trueflight? I understand what you mean and I will consider it! thanks! Finally something I can actually use!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:24 am 
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Wood elf magic arrows they can get on all their shooting models except waywatchers. They take no minuses to their BS shooting for any reason (long range, cover, moving, Iceshard blizzard etc...). That way they can fill the table with forests, move around, and still hit you on 3+. BotWD protects against them, though, as they are magical.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:36 pm 
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But with those arrows, 20 archers do on average 1.85 wounds. The chance of producing 3 or more wounds is less than 9%. If I do get the shadow spell 1 I can fly with the Death AM and then move it with the spell and it will have moved 30'. Then it will be behind.

Today I'm gonna try a bus for the shadow, which can be slower given the range and GE for Death. Sadly my friend plays with WoC, so the shooting is not going to be a problem, I just have to avoid the DP and try to kill him with spells. I will write the report and send it to let you know.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:42 pm 
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Well, if you put a death mage behind a wood elf line you won't get 20 arrows, you'll get 45-50.

And that's just that turn. He will see that model as a threat (and high point target) fron turn one. He can move and shoot with no penalty, so there's almost nowhere to hide. That's also not considering whether he has first turn, and Arrow of Kurnous if the death mage is the general, in which case, he could be dead before your first turn.

As far as WoC, avoiding a DP can be a tall order, what with skullcrushers, knights, chimeras and other gribblies able to cover your escapes, but good luck to you.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:14 pm 
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Ok, you are putting my hopes down haha
what about BSB,2 AM on GE join a unit of 2 GE. Then they can do Watch out sir, and use the BoTWD on the BSB. hahaha

This will be still like 1/3 or 1/2 of the army, but now I can have my units move independently. Still with a focus on cav.

This also arises my next question. Would this be considered as flying cavalry? because if so, I am saved haha


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:03 pm 
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Sorry, you need at least 5 rank and file to qualify for look out sir, so at least 5 great eagles.

But, it's moot anyway, since characters for some reason can't join flying units, as dumb as that is.

I'm sorry to keep shooting down your idea, it's just that your idea is a difficult one to pull off. I think your best bet is to send in the eagle mage alone, and try to force multiple targets to distract, but you have to realize it's a very risky tactic, and you will likely lose your mage. However, it can be a game winning tactic against ogres or dwarfs or whatever, even if you lose the mage.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:56 am 
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Ok, you were right. So many units moving forward so fast that it was impossible to avoid the conflict. I did it, but it costed me many units. My SH almost crushed his juggernauts by chance, but he passed a ld test of 4+
I threw the miasma over his nurgle warriors, -3 initiative and then threw the miasma. 9 nurgles died and 5 trolls. He had Throgg but he remained. It seems that is not profitable to have to AM, it is impossible to have such a magic phase that will pay-off.

The BoWD worked amazingly, my dragon princes received no wound from his characters and juggernauts, but they didn't run either, so I got crushed. My flamespyre phoenix survived 3 rounds against the DP, but with SS 2+ against fire, there was nothng to do. I could not avoid that charge without tampering my whole army.

I am considering a Loremaster now to go with shadow warriors. My white lions did nothing against the nurgles. I had 10, I should consider using more.

Also, I am having lots of trouble with the redirecting.... I should practice that more. My GE saved me from a charge, but there was not much I could do.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:24 am 
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10 White Lions aren't enough to do much of anything. As a general rule, high elf infantry should be at least 15 strong to take advantage of martial prowess and ranks. Lions can do a Lion cube, but that takes some finesse to use properly.

I'm curious about your whole list, actually. If I can see what you're working with, maybe I can suggest a goodnstrategy.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:37 pm 
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I want to have a list with strong death magic and support magic. I was trying death/shadow.

I had in a 2250pts list:

1 AM in GE, Talisman of prot. and BoH
1AM in steed, Talisman of resistance and dispel scroll

15 SH with shield and FCG
2x5 Ellyrian reavers w/ bow and lance

10 White lions BS and champion
6 Swordmasters
8 Dragon Princes FCG and BoTWD

Flamespyre Phoenix
3 RBT
1 GE

The DPs tanked the AM in steed (shadow) in ranks of 3 (I wanted to try that, but it seemed unefficient with them)
The Flamespyre got stuck with the daemon Prince
the swordmaster were supposed to support the White lions, but it didn't work, I was forced to close enemy lines with them to avoid being sorrounded.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:02 pm 
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janohirmas wrote:
The DPs tanked the AM in steed (shadow) in ranks of 3 (I wanted to try that, but it seemed unefficient with them)
The Flamespyre got stuck with the daemon Prince
the swordmaster were supposed to support the White lions, but it didn't work, I was forced to close enemy lines with them to avoid being sorrounded.

It seems like you have some of your own ideas about what worked and what didn't. How are thinking of changing your list to account for this?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:15 pm 
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My worst concern is that I cannot have the 3 things I need. Infantry that holds, Strong cavalry (good even for standing alone) and double magic.

I am considering the Loremaster with the Shadow Warriors. Still not convinced, but that one poses a lesser threat, so there are 2 options, either it gets the fire redirected, the its possible to advance easily with the cav and infantry; or it does not and I have a nice fight mage behind enemy lines.

About the RBT, I like them a lot, but I still do not see them paying off. The GE, I need some training to redirect and also to avoid getting tempted to engage with 5 ellyrian reavers. I should take out the lances to avoid such desire hahaha.

I am still working, but I will keep you posted with the progress..


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:44 pm 
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Why not? Surely you could fit Silver Helm core, PG in special and two Archmages if you wanted to?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:35 pm 
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That would imply no ellyrian and I cannot protect the AM with BoTWD.

I could also sacrifice the Phoenix, but I think the impact it does visually has some aid.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:11 am 
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janohirmas wrote:
That would imply no ellyrian and I cannot protect the AM with BoTWD.

I could also sacrifice the Phoenix, but I think the impact it does visually has some aid.

Not really. 20 SH + 5 reavers = 540 pts, which means that at 2250 pts you still need another 22pts for minimum core. So you can have 20 SH, FC and 5 reavers and just make minimum core. I would say 20 is a big enough bus. If you want 2 units of reavers then drop a few silver helms. 16 SH or 17 if you drop the banner (which doesn't add that much to a SH unit unless you play blood and glory) would still work OK I feel.

The dragon princes add very little to the list you posted I feel. I think dropping them and replacing them by a BSB with the BotWD (who goes in the SH) and putting the rest in the other units would improve the list. The BSB would improve SH unit to make it do more then just be filling for core. Also, I would drop the bows from the reavers. 10 s3 shots (which will normally have moved) do very little. The reavers job is to die. Keeping them cheap is usually better.

I would also replace the WL and SM with a unit of PG. They're a much more durable anvil. And with the razor banner they kick-ass in combat vs anything without a 1+ armour save.

Of course, I would also drop the GE and use the points this frees up to upgrade the flamespire to a frostheart (and some odds and ends here and there). 2 redirectors is enough at 2250 I think. And a flamespire just doesn't do enough.

I still think the AM on great eagle is a bit too much a gimmick to be worth it. Yes, it will definitely work great in some battles. And some armies will have little answer to it. Others will simply not care or be able to take him off the field in no time. While it would change the list dynamics, I think the list becomes stronger and more stable by replacing him with a prince on GE.

Rod

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