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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:59 pm 
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The enemy of January is Wood Elves.

Now that we have all relocated to sunny and woody Athel Loren, we need some space. We are looking for any and all information you have on our Wood Elven brothers and their spirit friends. What are their strong units? What are good combinations and items? What are strong lists? And, most important of all, how do we beat them.

A whole month to discuss and find out.

In your post, aside from information about Wood Elves, please also specify what kind of environment you play in. What comp do you play? What does your local meta look like? Do you play in tournament settings or just in your local shop? And how tough are the lists you regularly run into?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:37 pm 
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WE are a pain. I play mostly ETC. They usually take dual L4s, typically high/shadow/metal in any combination of the above. Death also appears every once in a while. The usual suspects apart from this are trueflight core, either GG or GR, wild riders, possibly sisters as a bunker, possibly moonstone for mobility, 2 units of waywatchers and 2 eagles.

The problem with these lists is that their magic is very strong against us. With the High/Shadow combo you'll typically see Power Scroll on the High L4 and Dispel Scroll on the Shadow L4. What this means is that T1 you'll often receive Arcane on BOTWD, followed by power scrolled Fiery Convocation. Extremely potent, and as if that's not enough Withering makes an absolute joke of our T3 when faced with 20 Waywatchers.

I've found that the best approaches to fighting WE is to take enough ranged power to contest a part of the table. Their army is very surgical in nature which means that they can concentrate a lot of power, but if you can deny a fairly big area, they struggle to bring this power to bear.

To do this though you need a serious amount of ranged power. Not every list has this by far, but I've found it to be a decent reply. Combined arms get completely destroyed because WE focus on the most important threat at all times and just dodge the rest. Fast armies typically spend too long getting into combat with anything meaningful and even 2-3 flyers struggle to zone WE. Their mobility is just crazy.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:27 am 
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I agree with what Curu has stated about the WE competitive builds.

Where I play a lot of the Tournies are uncomped but we have had a few Swedish Comp one's last year.

Firstly in my opinion the best WE builds tend to be shooty avoidance with strong Magic and a counter punch in the form of Wild Riders.

I tend to build my High Elf lists for Tournies and my preferred play Style is MSU with a more cavalry heavy elements than what Swordmaster uses.

The WE armies scare me because my small MSU units can be easily shot off with their small model count.

WE will tend to stay back (Avoidance lists) so we need things to deal with them at range until our combat troops can close on them.

The Meta in my area has quite a few WoC armies with quite an even split of the other races Elves being quite common.

So with the above factors taken into account the following are elements I would try to incorporate into my lists.

Countering Wood Elves generic Tournament Lists

What we should include?

Magic: Lvl 4 (to give us a good Magic phase and help counter the WE Lvl 4 or double Lvl 4's).

Supporting caster? Lvl 1 or 2 or Loremaster (for extra Items and Magic Missiles).

Items: Scroll, Book Of Hoeth, BoTWD (immunity to their magic arrows), Ruby Ring, Ring of Fury (extra magic missiles).

Shooting
RBT's and core archers probably not sisters or Seaguard due to shorter ranges and higher costs points wise easily killed by the WE shooting. Shadow warriors fall in between but could be useful due to their scouting ability which can help hamper the WE deployment.

Probably the standard BSB with Reaver Bow , etc.. would be a good choice.

Close Combat
Phoenix guard and White Lions are probably the pick of the HE infantry due to their resilience to shooting, especially with the BoTWD on the WL's.

SH's and DP's with their good armour and high mobility are going to be really useful as long as the WE Waywatchers are dealt with on turn 1 and 2.

Reavers will help with board control but may die fast unless used carefully.

I also think eagle Nobles could be useful if kept hidden behind other troops they would then only be vulnerable to True flight arrows but only -1 to their armor saves they should be good. The fly ability and speed means they can engage the WE archers to support cavalry charges or solo charge.

If using Phoenixes watch out for the WE poisoned arrows.

Tactics vs. WE's (shooty avoidance)

For my style of list I will need to deal with the WayWatchers in order to keep my heavy cavalry alive. So Magic and shooting to eliminate this threat is important early game.

The deployment phase is extremely important vs. the fast mobile WE army. Generally the WE will have a lot of fast cavalry and scouts so we need to deny places for these to go. You don't want WE's behind your lines.

If the WE player has Glade Riders these are pesky and ambush from turn 2 onward. Eagle Nobles may be a good answer to these guys due to their speed and maneuverability. Also the RBT's should be able to shoot off the Glade Riders unless they are in large numbers.

Back to deployment. I would tend to put the Reavers down first one unit on each flank and then depending on the scenario being played.

Use cover wherever possible when deploying units because not all WE archers will have the true flight Arrows.

If the WE list has Waystalkers then be very careful with your character placement as they can cop a few wounds from snipes.

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Last edited by Eltherion2 on Sun Jan 04, 2015 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:45 am 
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yeah whitle lions die to wood elf shooting as most of it is magical those lion cloaks dont help much lol


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:45 pm 
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I play a mixed WE list, such as you might see under Swedish comp or when playing the occasional maverick who doeesn't like putting 100 bows on the table.

:)

I've played HE's twice, first game vs Star Dragon, WDBSB, mini-Coven, 2x24 Lions, Archer/MSU cav Core. Dragonfire template is dangerous because you don't have to contact to use it, especially if WE player has an infantry block or a big unit of Swiftshiver (with High Magic for Hand). Hagbane doesn't put wounds on it fast enough IMHO and the usual Withering is moot vs T7. Even with Moonstone I had trouble getting a clear shot with Amber Spear. It should chew up anything in combat.

Lions aren't that great here IMHO, maybe as a WD bunker. OK I wouldn't put my Treeman into them but Eternal Guard are fine against them and WE cavalry hurt them. Not to mention they will struggle to see combat vs an avoidance list. Archers are worth having because they're a lot cheaper than the WE equivalent and still hurt them. I agree with Eltherion (and Furion) that MSU Helms are better than Reavers here. It takes Waywatchers to shoot them off quickly and those may have better things to do.

In general that game was very cagey. We had a central objective to capture but charge-timing slowed it down. A bit of a ranged war and I really struggled to cope with the Dragon's movement. Minor loss.

Second game was vs a monster mash with Dragon, Caradryan, 2x Frostheart, WD BSB in Helm Bus, 30 Archers, 2 RBT. Just couldn't cope with the speed. I threw away my lvl4 turn one which was the game, pretty much. My cav bus got one Phoenix but was ground down by another plus the Dragon. Treeman died slowly. EG got templated then ground by Caradryan, despite Venom Thicket (this is very popular). Even for a mixed list I was carrying dead weight in Treekin and Dryads here. Feel my current list could do better but still a tricky match-up.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 1:32 pm 
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akorndr2 wrote:
yeah whitle lions die to wood elf shooting as most of it is magical those lion cloaks dont help much lol


Give them the Banner of World Dragon and they are very survivable :wink: .

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:55 am 
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Here's the 2400 list of Amit Hindocha (former poster here) from this year's UK Masters. Comp Sheffield Slaughter pack, very light:

Spellweaver, lvl4, High, Scroll, 4++
Spellweaver, lvl4, Shadow, Moonstone, MR2, Power Stone
BSB, Starfire, Hail of Doom, Charmed Shield, Dragonbane

13 Glade Guard, Trueflight, +1 Ld banner, Musician
13 Glade Guard, Trueflight, Std, Musician
12 Glade Guard, Hagbane, Musician

7 Wild Riders, Eternal Flame, Shields
7 Wild Riders, Gleaming Pennant, Shields
6 Wild Riders, Shields

2x8 Waywatchers
2 Eagles

This has a lot of the most common elements in competitive WE lists. It doesn't have the characters in the popular Sisters bunker though, instead relying on the Moonstone. Amit can put all the characters in the ld bunker (with MR) and teleport when he feels like it or he can split them up. High offers extra board control, extra security with the Protection Counters and specialist stuff like Unforging (World Dragon). Hand is good on Waywatchers. Shadow helps him kill things, especially monsters which can otherwise be an issue for WE's.

He's gone for the popular Trueflight Core, good vs the ubiquitous elves and lets the GG move without penalty. He also has Hagbane for high Toughness. It's common for this to be on Scouts instead, so that it can Poison enemy war machines from turn 1 but Amit had other ideas for his Special section. With the Hagbane, Shadow and a good number of shots he has decent cover vs tough flyers etc..

The third Wild Rider unit is not always taken but helps the list keep the enemy at arms' length. Again, players sometimes omit the eagles but they are useful and buy time.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:12 pm 
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Sisters are, by and large, not needed with multiple units of Wild Riders and/or High Magic counters. With the moonstone as well it's plenty by far.

I think this is a good list to use as a template. It shows just how nasty WE can get. Specifics may vary of course but basically this is what keeps me up at night when I'm trying to write HE lists that I hope will have a chance against WE.

Lastly, in terms of tough targets: There isn't much Hand of Gloried WWs, Arcane Unforging, Withering and Pit can't take care of.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:01 pm 
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As said, this list lacks Hagbane Scouts so RBT deployed on the baseline are likely to survive a bit longer. Even if Hagbane GG are in range, deploying a unit between them and the RBT essentially stops Poison turn one (barring Hand) because they have to move to within 30".

It will obviously pay to keep an eye on all woods. You can occupy them to make Moonstoning awkwards but there may be room to fit despite this. Glade Guard can't shoot here but Waywatchers can and the mage can easily move into them and teleport them if he so desires. The fundamental point is as a bunker escape route but obviously relocating wizards to prime spellcasting positions is dangerous and this can be compounded with Smoke and Mirrors.

As said, I feel the Star Dragon can be a handful for WE armies. Here, Withering is dubious and the Hagbane is limited. Pit is the must-dispel. On the other hand Withering comes into play against Phoenixes. I'd be interested to see how this list squares up vs the HE monster mash. Mindrazor makes combats a bit uncertain. A Frostheart can usually tank a WR charge because they need 4's to hit it (no re-roll) and 6's to wound but obviously a spell can change this.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:12 pm 
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WE handles Star Dragon fairly good. Hand on WWs and multiple shots alongside poison + trueflight picks off wounds faster than you'd think. Additionally, if pit goes through you're in big trouble.

Now granted HE can bring stuff alongside the Dragon, but it's a big risk taking this build against a good WE player. Granted it's not exactly an optimal opponent for WE either and it depends on comp system and what the Dragon has for support, but I never feel comfortable with a Dragon vs WE. In fact I'd rather have an Anointed on Flamespyre ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:52 pm 
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Zach Martin's list from the same event:

Spellweaver, lvl4, Metal, Power Stone, MR3, Ironcurse
Spellweaver, lvl4, Death, Horse, 4++, Scroll
BSB, GW, Shield, Starfire, Hail of Doom

2x12 Glade Guard, Hagbane, Musician
2x6 Glade Riders, Hagbane

2x6 Scouts, Hagbane
2x8 Wild Riders, Shields, Champion

2x10 Waywatchers

Clearly putting the Death mage on a horse increases his threat. I imagine he will hang with Wild Riders for protection. The Metal guy on foot lacks Moonstone, normally I'd fear for him becoming a target, I'd be interested to hear Curu's views on this. Obviously Metal helps a lot with Empire, WoC etc..

All the GG are Hagbane, which in the opinion of some Masters commentators leaves it vulnerable to massed skinks (and elves a little IMHO). The Glade Riders are interesting, adding flexibility at some cost to firepower. This thread is interesting re their merits:

http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=28233

Then we get to the Hagbane Scouts. As said, these guys will likely be going for RBT's. In general this list has a lot of Hagbane which means it ticks the war machine and monster boxes, as well as countering Daemons etc.. For armour it has Metal and a lot of Waywatchers. No eagles here, the army is closer to pure avoidance but could sacrifice Scouts or GR's at a pinch.

As discussed earlier, one popular element in neither list is the Sisters bunker. So usually 7-8 Sisters with Hail of Doom BSB, Lvl4 plus often another mage. Generally Dispel Scroll, maybe Ward, Power Scroll/Stone, MR2, Moonstone. Unit will have either MR1 or +1 Ld banners. Very hard to catch (especially with Moonstone), it zips around and magics stuff. With High Magic the Protection Counters stack nicely with the 4++, sometimes enabling surprise charges as putting active combat res on it is very difficult.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:50 pm 
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I play wood elves verry often, so maybey i can help some people who don't.

I think the main thing you need to do is kill the waywatchers turn one. Without them, they have not much that can deal with a silver helm/ dragon prince bus with BOTWD, which is what a lot of people run these days. Apart from wild riders who charge you, they aren't all that awasome in combat, so I think that that is the phase in which we can beat them.

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