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What would you like to read a tactics article about?
The Art of Deployment 37%  37%  [ 13 ]
The Game Lasts 6 Turns - Planning Ahead 29%  29%  [ 10 ]
Play Perfect - Evaluate The Matchup 17%  17%  [ 6 ]
A Guide To Tournament Preparation 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Conscious Thinking - How To Quit Doing Stupid Mistakes 17%  17%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 35
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:28 pm 
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Having finally concluded the powerplay article and moved it to the right sub forum I want to begin with another one. Please select an option below and / or leave a comment :)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:23 pm 
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I've actually been working on one on deployment for a while so that will get done eventually... it's mostly finished I think. I'll try and get back to it over the holidays.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:25 pm 
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My vote is for thinking ahead - I feel this is something chess players are great at and I have been trying to work on it in my games. Some tips would be awesome.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:39 pm 
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What JR said. Thinking ahead. It's a difficult skill to develop and easily subsumed by the immediate threats/turn in front of you.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:46 am 
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More important question is who could write a good quality report. In fact, Axiem planed to write one on how to write a good tactical article. Hopefully he can find time to do so, that would be worthy contribution for sure and many forum members would greatly benefit from his advice on that matter.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:10 pm 
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The Game Lasts 6 Turns - Planning Ahead looks to be taking a lead. I'll let this stay for a couple of days to let more people vote, maybe something else catches up.

John, I'm looking forward to reading about your thoughts on deployment! Please, put up a draft when you feel it's ready so we can contribute :)

Swordmaster, we are not spoilt for choice these days. While the articles currently in the sub-forum for articles are valuable and good reads, they are not exactly overwhelming in terms of quantity. Thus, we're left with what we have. In this particular case I will be writer. I'd be more than happy to see more people dig into these endeavours as I think we could need a whole lot more articles. Likewise I'm welcoming Axiem's contributions for a meta-guide: A guide on how to write a guide sounds like a helpful tool indeed :)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:36 pm 
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Very interesting topic. I think it will be a difficult writeup, but I will nonetheless look very much forward to reading your take on this.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:54 pm 
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There must be a reason why people do not contribute to the tactics section with more articles. Also, the lack of contribution is no excuse for mediocre quality (at best) just to increase the quantity. I'd be better to get fewer articles with a good quality because more people can benefit from that.

There are at least two way to address that:

1. Approach forum members who have already proved can write about tactics. Convince them to spend some time in writing about any topic they consider worthy. I suggested Axiem, Seredain and Hinge can easily be other great writers. Seredain does not need any introduction, Hinge has his blog where he writes great articles. If any of them wrote an article each it would have been fantastic already.

2. There are hidden talents among forum members for sure. They might just need an encouragement. It may be in the form of a competition for the best article. It might take other form, up to the Loremasters how to organize it in details. At the moment there is no incentive to actually contribute to tactics forum. Convince forum members their activity is needed, let them write what they think is a good article, allow other members to vote for their most favorite and award the winner. In this way you will encourage forum members to be more active, show them their contribution matters, provide clear selection criteria (not some vague ideas or "if Loremasters like it") and everybody will benefit from that.

That of course assumes you care about the quality of the forum more than personal popularity.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:01 pm 
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I believe people do not contribute to articles because it is a lot of work and you don't really get a whole lot back from doing it. In any forum such as ours, contributions drive the quality forwards. Multiple contributors striving for knowledge and progress increases the quality. However there is still no incentive for anyone to post anything apart from increasing personal standing in the community, increasing knowledge etc. Ultimately, each one must decide for himself why he (or she, for that matter) what makes it worth posting on this forum. In my opinion, it is not the job of the Loremasters (nor Heralds) to incentivize this. We are here to keep things running smoothly. Content and quality must ultimately come from members themselves. Of course we are included in the member base the same as everyone else and as such share a common responsibility for the quality and content of the forum. Perhaps we should play a more active role in incentivizing quality content, but how would we go about doing so? PMing specific members feels very pushy to me. If you feel that Seredain, Axiem and Hinge are the perfect candidates for writing articles I suggest you PM them instead of any of us doing it.

As for a competition, this is again a question of where it should come from. If you want to run such an event you will have our full support. I'm sure one of us could team up with you and get something like that going. Again though, I believe that initiatives like this should come from members, not necessarily moderators. This thread is what and how I would like to contribute, which is something I'd have done regardless of being a Herald.

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That of course assumes you care about the quality of the forum more than personal popularity.


I resent the implication because "personal popularity" is not why I contribute to Ulthuan. I do what I do to improve my game and to help others understand the game better. I'm not looking to become an internet hero. I value knowledge and progress and have always been a fan of tactically challenging games. Warhammer to me is a lot more than posting on Ulthuan, which takes up a relatively small amount of the time I spend on this game. However this forum has given me a lot and it still does, so I feel like contributing back to help the ones who've helped me and the ones who come after me.

This is going a bit off topic, but I think you raise an important issue: How can we improve the general quality of the content on this site? Your initiatives are sound and I believe they're best coming from you. If we can help you in any way we will of course be happy to do so :)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:21 am 
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I voted on the "don't do stupid mistakes option" because I did one last game and really felt dumb afterwards.

The Book of Hoeth is a temptress that can bring about your doom in a way you only realize afterwards. Having gotten off my 3rd spell with my Loremaster, and rolled fairly high on my three dice, I still choose to reroll one of them. This resulted in my Loremaster making it irresistible force. This in turn led to him blowing up, taking half his bodyguard of spearelves with him and finally getting sucked into Chaos...all done in turn one #-o

All because I got greedy and thought I could make it just a little bit harder for my opponent to dispell. Lesson learned, lesson very much learned o alluring book.

I don't know if this is the general idea with that option but I have a feeling I'm not the only one who has fallen to the temptation of reroll goodness. And would like to see other such "tactically challenging hindrances imposed on oneself"


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:33 pm 
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Planning Ahead it is :)

So, tell me, what do you all find most hard about this aspect of the game?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:14 pm 
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The part I most struggle with is anticipating my opponents moves. I guess this comes from experience but if there are any tips... I often find in a game that I have a broad plan to be somewhere by turn X and I can generally see what I think my opponent is trying to do in his next turn but I struggle to see beyond that in terms of his moves.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:49 pm 
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I think it's partly a matter of maintaining the initiative. It's a lot easier to know what your opponent is going to do if your actions force reactions on his part. If you can dictate his choices, it is much easier then to think about your counters to his forced choices. If you can continue to give him worse and worse options from a dwindling supply of available ones... then thinking ahead becomes easy.

This is much more difficult when your army forces you to be more reactive, and gives up the initiative of the game. Then it becomes more difficult to read an opponent's moves when they aren't ones you are forcing on him. I think the way to plan ahead is to know what your opponent will do... and you can only do that if you force him into something through your own actions.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:40 am 
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I think it's a combination of things.

A bit like in chess (though WH is no really anything like chess), there is a difference between moving pieces around because you have a notion that it's a good idea to have board control and having a plan about what you want to achieve and working towards that goal. Mid-games in chess are usually the hardest because you have a lot of pieces, relatively little room to move and have to force your opponent to do something or make a mistake.

The same goes for Warhammer. It's taking it a step beyond "shove unit forward until it hits your opponents unit". I think that's the kind of WH many people play (myself included by the way...). Yes, there will be some maneuvering or getting units in a good position. And there is some blocking and redirecting involved. But when you get down to it, deployment for most people dictates the units that will get into combat with each other.

So, to move beyond this, you need to know what you want to achieve. You need to predict, anticipate and force your opponents moves. And you need to manage your own plan as well. That's the hard part.

Rod

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:10 am 
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mod-edit. No need to get sarcastic. In case you really want to help, feel free to do so. Otherwise, no trolling/baiting.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:00 pm 
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I very much look forward to your article John. You're a good player who often adds useful insights to discussions. Part of the problem I believe is that anyone looking at the development of Curu's last article and the roasting he got writing it, is not going to be encouraged to go through the same process. Now I know that Curu is a big boy and can handle it but joe average looking at that is going to say "it's not worth the grief". I also know that part of that criticism was because Curu has a combative, challenging style but in general the point stands. I suggest any article submitted should have a set period (a week?) for general comment, then the author amends it (or not) and submits. Then we decide if it is accepted or not. We could outline this in an info post somewhere people are going to look at.

I don't think Seredain is a goer here because if he had any time he'd be posting on his blog. I once wrote something simple and small on the Chariot Prince, mainly because he suggested I do so. It was niche but it covered something that had not previously been touched on. TBH it wasn't fully a Tactics article, more a 'nuts and bolts' breakdown. I feel we should also consider articles that are not pure tactics, such as Axiem's excellent recent work on army-building and the meta, in his blog.

As someone intensively involved with chess for 25 years, the comparison is an interesting one. In general you learn to think ahead by osmosis, you play and play and just get better at it. It's a lot about memorizing patterns and sensing one when type of position might become another. You also get better at it though by analysing games played, especially your own games, especially losses. It's no surprise that arguably the strongest player ever, Kasparov, was brilliant at this. Even he though, could make terrible mistakes on occasion. In one World Championship match with Karpov, he lost an advantageous position within a couple of moves. As the British Grandmaster Jon Speelman commented, "only someone who believed they were the centre of the universe could make such a move". Contrast a Warhammer example, the former England ETC captain, Dan Heelan. After a loss to a similarly skilled player but one who had more experience Dan's comment was "learned loads". A touch of humility is a strength here I feel.

In terms of analysing the game to become better at it, the Opening traditionally has the most attention, countless books have been published on mere sub-variations. Middlegame is more difficult because of the sheer variety of positions. But one of the reasons the Soviet Union dominated the game for 50 years was that they studied the Endgame. The sheer options opened up for few pieces on an open board are mind-boggling. When I was a 2200 player I thought I knew something about Rook Endings. After reading the first chapter of the classic work by Smyslov and Levenfish I couldn't stop laughing. I was a fair player but I knew only the tip of the iceberg. Whether comparisons can be drawn with Warhammer I don't know.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:02 pm 
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Swordmaster, why would you respond to a helping hand in such a spiteful and arrogant matter? I am curious.

@SpellArcher - I have never even been close to your level in chess, but I have played enough chess to notice a few similarities between these games. The opening can largely be compared to deployment in the sense that it shapes the way the game plays. The mid-game is harder because in Warhammer it can occur at various points in time depending on the nature of the matchup and the goals of the players. For example a flying circus list could develop a mid-game T1 by being hyper-aggressive whereas a Warriors list with multiple chariots typically "extend" the opening into the first couple of turns. However, what they have in common is most definitely the end game: In chess this is constrained by the possible moves and the objective of locking down the king. In Warhammer you are typically more constrained about the game lasting 6 turns. It becomes a matter of planning how best to utilize this and towards the very end game these games share a very interesting phenomenon: You start making seemingly ridiculous moves to reach your objective. In chess, this could be setting a trap for your opponent where he can get your queen because in doing so he gives you an ending where you win. In warhammer, this could be congalining a stubborn unit just to last that one final turn of combat, it could be sending out characters in all different directions to minimize the impact of miscasting, it could be blocking a deathstar with an otherwise important character for the greater good etc.

What you say about positions and recognizing patterns is very true for Warhammer as well. Whereas chess players are typically hugely knowledgeable about openings, I find Warhammer players rarely prioritize deployment in the same way. This is a shame as I believe there's a lot to be learned from the way chess players approach the game. Knowing what options you have, what works and what doesn't should be a much bigger focus for pretty much everyone. Interestingly, one of the former national talents in chess here in Norway plays at our club (he has a 3-0 record vs Magnus Carlsen, not many people can claim that!). Frequently when he plays a new list, he'll offer the opponent to save all his drops until he's finished his. He believes that figuring out what deployment works for your army is a bigger deal than adapting to your opponent. He also happens to be one of the country's, if not the world's, best players. I'm very interested in seeing John's take on deployment and hope we'll see a draft soon ;)

I'm hoping to touch upon these issues (and more!) in the upcoming article. Being able to identify phases of the game and recognizing patterns and positions is crucial to evaluating one's position and thus making the right calls. Also, as in chess, predicting your opponent's optimal move is a necessity for planning and executing your own successfully.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:01 am 
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It was not spiteful or arrogant. I am sure Rod will update you on why I wrote it in the way I did.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:54 pm 
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'Tis funny that you attack my ability to write articles considering I've only submitted one to the articles forum and that one had an open feedback thread for literally months where there was not a single negative comment made. In particular, there was no comment from you. It's arrogant then, by definition, to bring up this now considering you never did so before when given the opportunity, doubly so when we are now discussing how we can improve our articles. You brought up the BOTWD-thread, which I think is a void point considering I took your advice into consideration about said thread (which is also why it hasn't been submitted to the articles forum).

What we are faced with here are basically two issues. The first issue is what I'm going to write about. Regardless of subject, you've made it clear that you have no faith in my ability to convey meaningful and valuable information on how to play warhammer in an article format. That's ok, I can accept that, even though I think this is the wrong time and place to take that discussion, so let's leave it at that. I'm going to write a draft anyways where I invite anyone and everyone to criticize my work, especially you, before I arrive at something I'm happy with and will submit for approval.

The second issue is what we can do as a whole to improve the articles. As I already stated, I think your suggestions are sound. The only thing we disagree about here is who should manage this. I believe it should be you, you believe it should be us. How can we solve this? I can start explaining my point of view: Basically I think we, as moderators, should interact as little with the site as possible in terms of actually moderating. We should facilitate, monitor and resolve issues and that is where I believe our duties stop. That is also where I believe they should stop and it was what was presented to me when I was first asked to become a Herald. I believe in content generated by the community as a whole. If someone has an initiative or idea, it should be his/her initiative/idea and the moderators should only facilitate where needed. Examples of this are all over the site, ranging from the Phoenix King debates to P&M contests, tactics articles and guides. In this case, the new ideas presented came from you. As such I think it should be yours to go on with. You are of the opposite opinion according to what you wrote above, so I would like to hear why you believe that the moderators should be the ones fronting your ideas?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:31 am 
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@ Curu

I apologized in other topic for my behavior. I will not continue here with either of the issues you raised until I get the answer if you are interested in getting things fixed. I will happily address each and every point you have mentioned here and will do my best to explain my stand properly. Be it here, in separate topic or via PM but at the moment it is up to you to choose the way that suits you the most.

@ Spell Archer

I know I am guilty of that strong criticism Curu's article received. In the end, however, there were plenty of good ideas and excellent advice from other members (Axiem in particular) so I really hope people don't get discouraged.

I really like your Chess related comment. It is a beautiful game and the one where players can develop their unique style based on their personality too. Kasparov's Fighting Chess are great example here. His arch-enemy, Karpov, was described as very meticulous, cold-calculating player who would spend a lot of time building a perfect trap, tightening the grip with every move.

There are many similarities between such a serious game as Chess and Warhammer but there are obviously many differences. For example, Chess can be studied with three phases in mind, opening, mid-game and end-game. Technically, you can do so with Warhammer too, although the first thing to decide is what is opening (deployment and first turn?) what is mid and what is end-game here.

The main challenge to any warhammer games study, however, is the fact that many games are not recorded with as many details as chess games. You know precisely where and when particular piece was moved. Many excellent reports from warhammer game, however, are not that precise though. Some show only pictures so judging the distance is difficult. Some do not provide details on winds of magic so that analyzing magic phase is limited.

I wonder how to overcome such an obstacle.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:09 am 
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It's always hard, as a new guy, to speak in the middle of an argument, especially between two longtime users of a forum.
Anyway, about the topic, and as a new HE player :
-I voted deployment, this for several reasons : As a dwarf player, I learned very fast that deployment is key if not the most important phase in the game, along with movement phase (yes, even when I'm playing a gunline. I can come back to that and explain why I find movement phase criticall with a dwarf gunline even if I only move one unit for two turns while the rest stay in place). A bad deployment and/or a clever opponent can win/loose the game before turn one.
While I understand the theory and what I need in a dwarf deployment, I'm completly lost with elves as the two armies are almost diametrally opposed. I feel like HE deployment is less punitive as your mobility allows you to redeploy and mitigate your mistakes, but I know this is just a feeling and not a true assessment.

-I think that if you plan to write a lot of tactical articles (like the ones you polled), it is better to start with the basics and what matters the most.


About the chess reference, I mostly agree that warhammer can be compared to it in most ways. While I'm not very good at chess (but still enjoy playing it on some websites), there is a lot of similarities in the two games. Even chess endgames can be related to warhammer in some extend in my oppinion !


Lastly, I would be interested and a statistic topic about RBTs, when is it more interesting to shoot in single/multi shot. I could start to work on it, but I first want to make sure nobody already did it / is actually writing it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:47 pm 
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For the guys who played a Warhammer game I think it's a lot easier SM. They can each do a report in whatever form and benefit from it as they go through the key points and realize things about the flow of the game that they didn't at the time. It's hard to get the fine detail across to people not there at the time, I agree. But even in chess you're reliant to some extent on the quality of any analysis accompanying the moves of a game.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:50 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Planning Ahead it is :)

So, tell me, what do you all find most hard about this aspect of the game?


I would say the recurring problem I have had that relates to this is that I often find that my support units are not where I need them to be when I need them. Sometimes a unit of Reavers can’t quite get into position to redirect (obviously less of a problem for eagles) and other times it’s a supporting combat unit (I.E. FH Phoenix) that has become tied up and is hence not available to charge on the same turn as my main unit/units.

I find that I often am not sure where I should be putting my Reavers with vanguard and t1 movement. Sometimes this decision is relatively easy but other times I find I don’t know where to put them in advance so that they are relatively safe and will still be available when I need them in later turns.

Regarding supporting combat units:
I can recall a game where I was running a cavalry bus and attempting to get into my opponents character bunker where he had a lot of points in characters. I had closed the distance with my bus to an easy charge distance with turns to spare but I hadn’t considered that several of his characters were very cheap and that he could sacrifice them to delay the bus for multiple turns (we were running very behind on time and this shouldn’t have been an issue if we had got 6 turns in). If I had had my Phoenix available I would have been able to charge it in to get the opponents bunker tied up in combat (preventing further jettisoning of characters). As it happened, I had allowed my Phoenix to become tied up in a slap fight with an armoured unit after I put him out of position to gobble up a small but significant supporting unit of my opponent.

A further issue I have had is spotting potential overrun threats/opportunities.
I remember losing what should have been an unlosable matchup after an overrun from one of my units of Reavers led my opponent’s bus into the other Reavers allowing him to win a combat behind my lines on my turn and reform to able to charge me on his.

In another game I lost my Phoenix because of the orientation of an eagle would have allowed an overrun of the eagle to get into the flank of my Phoenix. As a result, I fled with the eagle (through the phoenix) figuring I would have a better chance of passing my panic test than winning combat with the Phoenix after giving up a flank charge with the overrun. Phoenix failed the panic and ran off the board and this could have easily been avoided by just turning the eagle ~30 degrees (the eagle could be sacrificed without affecting the end game score).

Hope that helps.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:28 am 
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gaz wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
Planning Ahead it is :)

So, tell me, what do you all find most hard about this aspect of the game?


I would say the recurring problem I have had that relates to this is that I often find that my support units are not where I need them to be when I need them. Sometimes a unit of Reavers can’t quite get into position to redirect (obviously less of a problem for eagles) and other times it’s a supporting combat unit (I.E. FH Phoenix) that has become tied up and is hence not available to charge on the same turn as my main unit/units.


Adding to that, I find my reavers are often not in the formation I want them in, i.e. I might want them congad for a charge, or 2/3 abreast against a lighter target to get more attacks, or fully 6 wide to maintain steadfast. It's harder for the first two because you have to anticipate your opponents position a move ahead, whereas the latter you only need to look one turn ahead.

Also knowing/thinking/planning ahead for where *in the unit* characters should be placed. I'm getting good now at making sure wizards move within it to be in range, but considering who should be on the front/edge/2nd rank centre vs edge vs other edge etc is an art.

I think a lot of stuff here, and in gaz's comments, come down largely to experience and might be hard to write about. But hey, we throw them out there, your challenge is to address them :lol: 8)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 1:49 pm 
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The part I most struggle with is anticipating my opponents moves. I guess this comes from experience but if there are any tips... I often find in a game that I have a broad plan to be somewhere by turn X and I can generally see what I think my opponent is trying to do in his next turn but I struggle to see beyond that in terms of his moves.


I think this would be a brilliant topic for an article, or maybe even a series of articles. Anticipating your opponents moves does come largely from experience, both experience of playing against certain armies and certain players. While it wouldn't really be possible to address tactics that would be used by certain players (unless anyone fancies starting up some sort of Ulthuan NSA?) I think that between all the members of this forum, the wealth of experience out there regarding how to play/play against other armies is huge. I know that a good number of posters on this forum have more armies than just high elves, with high elves maybe even being a second or third army. I think it would be remarkably useful for players (such as myself) who rarely get a chance to play against a wide variety of armies if a series of articles could be composed detailing the most common army builds and strategies used by these armies, and specifically ways to counter them. Sure, we all need experience in order to improve, but who said it had to be our own experience?

Not sure I've explained what I meant to as well as I should have, but I think what I said makes sense. Maybe. Basically I want a big long encyclopedia of all the armies I could come up against, what I need to watch out for, and the best way to eliminate the threats that various armies pose.

Also, we should totally have a "Curu and Swordmaster debate:..." article, because then I could cancel my netflix subscription.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:29 pm 
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Wrathbaby wrote:
Basically I want a big long encyclopedia of all the armies I could come up against, what I need to watch out for, and the best way to eliminate the threats that various armies pose.

We are currently doing something that matches this idea. Check the "enemy of the month" articles (one of them is stickied). There we try to give an overview of the different armies. We take it one army at a time, since doing all 14 + ET armies is a bit much.

Rod

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:26 pm 
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Wrathbaby wrote:
Also, we should totally have a "Curu and Swordmaster debate:..." article, because then I could cancel my netflix subscription.


This. =D>


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