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 Post subject: Star Dragon vs Gunline
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:42 pm 
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This came up over on the army list section but I think here is more appropriate.

I love my Prince on Star Dragon. My usual build is the Star Lance with a halberd back up, enchanted shield, potion of toughness, talisman of preservation and dragon armour.

Against most armies he is devastating. My problem is against gunline armies. With multiple cannons or hellcannons, he just dies more often than not. He takes up so many points and I'm at a huge disadvantage after that. I've tried rushing the artillery with my dragon but he more often than not gets nailed by multiple cannonballs and dies. I've tried hiding him behind something until cavalry, magic or eagles can take out the artillery, but such large terrain is rare, and my dragon can end up out of the fight for so long he struggles to make his points back.

Anyone have a good reliable strategy for using a Star Dragon Prince against multiple heavy artillery?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:43 pm 
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Yes. Don't expect the Prince to survive and you won't be disappointed.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:53 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Yes. Don't expect the Prince to survive and you won't be disappointed.

Lol.

This 'strategy' is unfortunately true but not very helpful I fear. The truth is as Curu says, this is an uphill battle from the start. Hiding is generally not an option although remember that your opponent has to be able to draw line of sight to the point he targets with the cannonball. Your best best here is to overload your opponent with threats and hope enough gets through. Other units like eagles, phoenixes, etc can all be used as sacrificial protection for the dragon if need be. Or you use he dragon as a bit target and let the other units get to work.

You should also be looking at items that help the dragon in this situation i.e. charmed shield on the rider or on an eagle noble to catch cannonballs for the dragon, lores like high magic for walk and regrowing wounds or light for Pha's, etc.

Hopefully these few things will help. As stated this is at best an unfavorable match-up to start with though.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:18 pm 
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When you bring a Dragon to a game you automatically accept that gunlines are going to be at the mercy of the dice. There is no way around it. There are of course small things you can do to mitigate the worst of the damage, such as taking lores that can assist your dragon for instance, but at the end of the day when that Dragon has no cover and your enemy points 3 cannons at him you're down to lady luck. You have to come to terms with this fact if you want to play a monster list.

I have a number of reports with related musings in my blog(s). The old one is admittedly a bit outdated but the principles still apply. The new blog has several reports as well. Give them a read, especially when I play OK, DW and EMP and you will see what I'm talking about.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:38 am 
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Nice blog Curu, very useful for me. I see what you mean, there's no obvious solution.

How about Teclis with End Times rules? First I'd try to get off the Metal End times spell with the 2+ ward save on the dragon and if that doesn't work he has the offensive spells to take out the artillery and spam-healing spells to restore lost wounds.

I think this is going to become less of a problem with combined monster profiles in the next edition. With ten wounds, a 4+ ward save and something like the Golden Crown of Atrazar, the star dragon and prince will most often survive at least a turn even with three cannons firing at him, giving time for you to take out the artillery. Then high and life magic can restore some wounds and with the artillery gone, the dragon is going to tear through the remaining units.

Dragons have become rare in 8th but I have a feeling they will be a huge part of the meta in 9th. Which is good, because dragons are awesome, and a perfect centerpiece to build an army around. Better than seeing those ugly Frosthearts in every High Elf army.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:04 pm 
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With the new changes to the percentages you could probably get two princes on dragons in your army :D


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:18 pm 
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Give them many objetives: stardragon + 2 frosthearts. There is no gunline that can kill all of them (sometimes even more than one) in a single turn.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:41 pm 
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HugoMac wrote:
Give them many objetives: stardragon + 2 frosthearts. There is no gunline that can kill all of them (sometimes even more than one) in a single turn.


Wrong. Empire can, Dwarfs can, Chaos Dwarfs can, High Elves can, Wood Elves can. Light Coven and Death Magic are highly effective against a Star Dragon while cannons can easily one-shot a Frostheart on a lucky day.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:56 am 
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Sadly I agree with Curu here. There are multiple lists that can take out 2 of them easily - think Empire Coven of Light with double Str.7 banishment, double cannon and a stank - doesn't bode will for the list! I think after you lose 2/3 monsters you're cooked here.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:50 pm 
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I disagree.

For magic, we have our own dispel resources, and at least for a single turn we should be able to shut down almost all enemy phase with the d-scroll.

For warmachines, yes, it is mathematically possible, but let´s be honest, is LARGELY improbable. Is like saying that 4 bolt throwers can kill a dragon: yes, it can be, but no one really counts on it.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:28 pm 
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Hugo, how many double banishment empire lists with 3 cannons and double stanks have you faced with a monster mash kind of build?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:14 pm 
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You said yourself in the OP that you have a problem against gunline builds. There is no real answer to this problem other than the suggestions we have made which are tbh, unreliable and not all that effective.

If in your meta, the dragon works against some and not all builds then that is the way it will be. You have to decide if you think you can accept a few losses for the wins that will also get.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:05 am 
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HugoMac wrote:
I disagree.

For magic, we have our own dispel resources, and at least for a single turn we should be able to shut down almost all enemy phase with the d-scroll.

For warmachines, yes, it is mathematically possible, but let´s be honest, is LARGELY improbable. Is like saying that 4 bolt throwers can kill a dragon: yes, it can be, but no one really counts on it.

at least 1 banishment 2 at most because you'll cop one.
You are basing it on "theoryhammer" which isn't reality - put it this way you have a statistical probably of getting more points if you hide then charging forward at the same time.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:36 pm 
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Probably not always going to save your dragon, but you could try two eagles right in front of the dragon to stop cannonballs. If he ends up hitting the eagle first and not killing it the cannonball is stopped. Course given the size of the eagle base compared to the dragon the chances of that working are slim-but it's worth a shot if you really want to keep your star dragon.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:25 pm 
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Lorthemar wrote:
Probably not always going to save your dragon, but you could try two eagles right in front of the dragon to stop cannonballs. If he ends up hitting the eagle first and not killing it the cannonball is stopped. Course given the size of the eagle base compared to the dragon the chances of that working are slim-but it's worth a shot if you really want to keep your star dragon.

Or a charmed shield eagle rider.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:02 am 
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Or a frosty?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:17 am 
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Or another dragon.

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