Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:20 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:47 pm
Posts: 8
My fellow elven commanders!!! I've not see yet a thread dedicated to discuss what Strategies, Tactics and Combos were introduced with the new book EOT: Khaine.

So... just to start (and even if you hate the new fluff or love it): what do you think it will be our new and more nasty combo? (using the new combined elven army)

Let the storm come!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:39 pm
Posts: 2062
Location: Cathy
a bit too early as the book even isn't out?
And if the above statement is true then people won't have played any games or much games at all.

_________________
ETC WHFB Team Singapore
2014 - Chaos Dwarfs & Most Favoured Enemy
2015 - High Elves & Top HE

T9A
Highborn Elves - Army Book Committee
Balancing Board
Highborn Elves - ex-Army Support


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:38 am
Posts: 727
Location: Burbank, CA
Few interesting combos in the Eternity King list:

A Wood Elf Lord/Hero with Moonstone + Any dangerous HE/DE unit can port in and be quite dangerous.

Blood Shrine Bound Spell on a unit of Wild Riders gives each model 7 attacks on the charge (1 base, 1 Devastating Charge, 2 for Frenzy, 1 base mount, 2 for mount Frenzy).

High Elf Mage + Either Sisters or Warlocks = fast moving 3+ ward save bunker.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:53 pm
Posts: 63
RogueSun wrote:
High Elf Mage + Either Sisters or Warlocks = fast moving 3+ ward save bunker.

But without fastcav rule.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:17 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:38 am
Posts: 727
Location: Burbank, CA
Count wrote:
RogueSun wrote:
High Elf Mage + Either Sisters or Warlocks = fast moving 3+ ward save bunker.

But without fastcav rule.


Still a 3+ ward fast moving bunker. If I have to choose between my mage never being engaged and sticking him in a combat block of PG and both getting a 3+ ward, I'll stick to the never being engaged part.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:40 pm
Posts: 45
Location: The Netherlands
8 bolt throwers in a shooty list... :l


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:05 pm
Posts: 108
Just dark elves with frosties and BotWD really.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:37 pm
Posts: 78
Remember though if you are using any of the Elven ET lists you MUST use the new magic rules. So that means 4d6 PD, random number of dice per cast/dispel, etc...

With that in mind, I plan on taking a Loremaster so that I have 56 spells and either power scroll or book of hoeth then stick him in some swordmasters, perhaps with a cauldron of blood. If you use the Host of the Eternity King you would have Martial AND Murderous Prowess, 3 attacks per model in the front rank (frenzy) and throw in the banner of the world dragon and you have a terrifying unit IMO.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:05 pm
Posts: 108
J4far wrote:
Remember though if you are using any of the Elven ET lists you MUST use the new magic rules. So that means 4d6 PD, random number of dice per cast/dispel, etc...

With that in mind, I plan on taking a Loremaster so that I have 56 spells and either power scroll or book of hoeth then stick him in some swordmasters, perhaps with a cauldron of blood. If you use the Host of the Eternity King you would have Martial AND Murderous Prowess, 3 attacks per model in the front rank (frenzy) and throw in the banner of the world dragon and you have a terrifying unit IMO.


That is the sound of Warhammer breaking.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:38 am
Posts: 727
Location: Burbank, CA
SteVieBizzLe wrote:
J4far wrote:
Remember though if you are using any of the Elven ET lists you MUST use the new magic rules. So that means 4d6 PD, random number of dice per cast/dispel, etc...

With that in mind, I plan on taking a Loremaster so that I have 56 spells and either power scroll or book of hoeth then stick him in some swordmasters, perhaps with a cauldron of blood. If you use the Host of the Eternity King you would have Martial AND Murderous Prowess, 3 attacks per model in the front rank (frenzy) and throw in the banner of the world dragon and you have a terrifying unit IMO.


That is the sound of Warhammer breaking.


Not really. One casting of Dwellers at the unit and it's effectiveness drops drastically. 2 Castings (remember you can try to spam spells now if you successfully cast it previously) and it's pretty much done for. BotWD does nothing against Dwellers.

Plus it's Swordmasters... you can still shoot them to death crazy easily.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:37 pm
Posts: 78
Can't cast spells that are 15+ more than once a turn. And when you declare you are casting, then you roll a d6 and that is the maximum number of PD you can use to cast. I find that will tone down the effectiveness of the unit killers to a more manageable level. Also you can buff your S with Wildform as well (fairly easy to cast with book reroll). As for shooting, I guess I can't really do much other than spells for that, but then again those spells are all easy to cast with 2-3 dice so much more reliable than trying to go for big ones. Miasma, Pha's, Net, etc...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:27 am
Posts: 208
Location: Seattle, WA USA
Death hag with witch brew on the couldron

4A sword masters with double prowess... before spells.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:38 am
Posts: 727
Location: Burbank, CA
Tullarion wrote:
Death hag with witch brew on the couldron

4A sword masters with double prowess... before spells.


Again. This still runs into the whole it's Swordmasters issue. I know people desperately want to make Swordmasters good, but giving them more attacks isn't what does it. Protection is what does it. White Lions with 3 attacks each in the above combo sounds WAY more dangerous because of the fact that they'll actually arrive in one piece.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:27 am
Posts: 208
Location: Seattle, WA USA
Yeah, I think white lions are better, even in end times with all the goodies, but it still takes sword masters to ridiculous abilities. And again that's before spells/ward increases

And the solution to that shooting that you're worried about could be the 8 bolt throwers you're packing. If there's no shooting threat, sword masters get pretty stupid, pretty fast with a couldron and witchbrew.

That said, lions are still the safer bet.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 6:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:51 pm
Posts: 563
Tullarion wrote:
Death hag with witch brew on the couldron

4A sword masters with double prowess... before spells.


The bound spell on the cauldron doesn't stack with witch brew...

Either way Phoenix guard are clearly the best unit to accompany a the cauldron of blood, especially if the hag has war cry, take or leave the anointed on foot.

15 Dark shards might be the best small arms shooting unit in the game with martial prowess, and shields aren't a bad investment.

Silver helm darts are very reliable with murderess prowess

Using all three books you can build a pretty fearsome, high strength infantry list. Which is actually pretty potent when backed up with high magic, and warlocks to supplement the lore.

_________________
I saw Karaz-a-Karak...and then I burned it to the ground.

Baleanoon and House Morhathel march once again for the Glory of Khaine and his chosen King.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:21 pm
Posts: 132
Baleanoon wrote:
Tullarion wrote:
Death hag with witch brew on the couldron

4A sword masters with double prowess... before spells.


The bound spell on the cauldron doesn't stack with witch brew...

Either way Phoenix guard are clearly the best unit to accompany a the cauldron of blood, especially if the hag has war cry, take or leave the anointed on foot.

15 Dark shards might be the best small arms shooting unit in the game with martial prowess, and shields aren't a bad investment.

Silver helm darts are very reliable with murderess prowess

Using all three books you can build a pretty fearsome, high strength infantry list. Which is actually pretty potent when backed up with high magic, and warlocks to supplement the lore.


Completely agree with all of this.

Would add that Shadow compliments that infantry list as well. With Malekith (with the addition of his innate bonuses to both murderous prowess and martial prowess) being a massive boost to infantry lists that can stay close to him.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:03 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
L4 High, Wood Elf, Dispel Scroll
L4 Shadow, High Elf, Book of Hoeth
BSB, High Elf, BOTWD

4x Waystalkers

Core:
Max. Trueflight

Special:
Max. Shades

Rare:
Waywalkers

Warhammer´s fun. That army will shoot anything off the tabletop. With BOTWD + High Magic counters defensively, not much can touch it.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:51 pm
Posts: 563
Curu Olannon wrote:
L4 High, Wood Elf, Dispel Scroll
L4 Shadow, High Elf, Book of Hoeth
BSB, High Elf, BOTWD

4x Waystalkers

Core:
Max. Trueflight

Special:
Max. Shades

Rare:
Waywalkers

Warhammer´s fun. That army will shoot anything off the tabletop. With BOTWD + High Magic counters defensively, not much can touch it.


I don't agree multiple 3++ from chaos and DP can walk through it without any difficulty at all... Not to mention the chariots, skullcannons and scouting harpies. I've essentially seen this army already get walked through locally, one game it lost because the player lost the role off for first turn against shooty avoidace Dark elves, then it got 20-0 by Nascar, and game one drew MSU Daemons. The other player using the army did better but he played HEs twice as soon as he played chaos he lost to the DP just landing in the middle of the waywatchers and casting choir and then proceeding to push 3 skullcrushers through the rest of the army.

_________________
I saw Karaz-a-Karak...and then I burned it to the ground.

Baleanoon and House Morhathel march once again for the Glory of Khaine and his chosen King.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:56 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
While it might not be the perfect combination given the possibilities, that list is insanely strong. Wood Elves, like Lizardmen, are extremely hard to play well and thus it´s easy to have a false sense of how powerful they can really be.

As for WoC, it´s a common misconception that these are a bad matchup for Wood Elves. I know 2-3 extremely skilled Wood Elf players and uncomped the matchup vs WoC is not even funny. Withering, Arcane Unforging, Walk and Hand just kill WoC so badly, add Mindrazor with Book of Hoeth on the L4 as well and, yeah. Daemon Princes frequently go down T1, after all Waywatchers and Waystalkers scout so you just place them 40" away, march up and shoot them to kingdom come before they get to move. 3++ lords are likely the most painful, but in reality you are unlikely to see more than one of them as the second is more likely on a Sorcerer or BSB. Again, Arcane is powerful and Mindrazor risky.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:38 pm
Posts: 14
RogueSun wrote:
Tullarion wrote:
Death hag with witch brew on the couldron

4A sword masters with double prowess... before spells.


Again. This still runs into the whole it's Swordmasters issue. I know people desperately want to make Swordmasters good, but giving them more attacks isn't what does it. Protection is what does it. White Lions with 3 attacks each in the above combo sounds WAY more dangerous because of the fact that they'll actually arrive in one piece.


I never understood why all the hate towards Swordmasters.. They are an amazing unit, I take them to every game I have been taking them in 20 (7Wx3D) with a Loremaster and Banner of the World Dragon at 1000 Points and up, and they have done amazing every single time, and in Siege games they are the reason I win, People underestimate that extra Attack and WS base a lot, and best part is they are less comp points then both White Lions and Phoenix Guard! I have never lost the whole unit (Lore of Life) and they have taken out seral hundred points each game, and in triumph & Treachery they win games on their own..

A lot of people at my local said they sucked till I started using them, now people hate them, I never take a list without 20-21 of them, period! Best Cr generators in the HE army,


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:47 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 7076
Location: The city of Spires
The problem with SM is not that they aren't good, it's more that they are mainly very good vs things most HE armies don't have a lot of trouble with.

I remember someone earlier doing a statistical comparison of SM vs WL in terms of killyness. Against T3 5+ armour models (or worse) or stuff with wards, SM perform better. Against other stuff, WL are just as good or better. And most HE armies struggle vs high armoured opponents more then vs t3 5+ armour stuff.

And the added protection vs shooting WL get means that more of them will survive and get into combat against a lot of opponents. A smart opponent will know that a big unit of SM is not something you want to fight, but also that it dies vs shooting pretty fast. They are a nice target for HE archers for instance.

Last thing is that in bigger units the advantage SM has, being the 1 extra attack matters less and less. A unit of 7 will have double the attacks of a unit of WL. A unit of 21 (3x7) will only have 33% more attacks. And if you decide to buff them with an extra attack (so 3 in the front rank for SM and 2 for WL), then the SM only have 25% more attacks.

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:27 am
Posts: 208
Location: Seattle, WA USA
I think if the arrow deflection were back like it was in 5th, with -1 to hit, it would go a decent way to making them on par with Lions. Still not as survivable, but that's why they each cost what they do.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:22 pm
Posts: 70
So I'm curious, has anybody thought about a Light Council type of list? Since Banishment can now be spammed, we can have 50% lords and 50% heroes, getting a bunch of light wizards isn't hard.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:07 pm
Posts: 60
Yeah, Im considering 4 lvl1 light mage/sorceress in a cavbus. The problem im having with light council is that I cant find a good place to put them other than with a cavbus(cany cast once in combat) or with woodelf skirmishers.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:53 pm 
Offline
Something Cool

Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:21 pm
Posts: 2309
Location: Northern, California USA
beencounter wrote:
Yeah, Im considering 4 lvl1 light mage/sorceress in a cavbus. The problem im having with light council is that I cant find a good place to put them other than with a cavbus(cany cast once in combat) or with woodelf skirmishers.



Why not with the fast cav casting bunker? They'd all have to wood elf light wizards though.

_________________
Ptolemy wrote:
Im not above whoring myself for a good cause. ;)


Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:27 am
Posts: 208
Location: Seattle, WA USA
Malossar wrote:
Why not with the fast cav casting bunker? They'd all have to wood elf light wizards though.


Well, I think he's trying to get BoH in there, which needs a high elf. I think it would be fine though. They wouldn't be fast cav anymore (since our steeds can't figure out how to not run into trees), and no forest strider, but it's probably fine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:10 pm
Posts: 721
Frankly, given that using the Khaine Magic Rules is mandatory when using armies from that book, the best caster is, hands down, the Sorceress because of the dagger. Why? easy: The dagger allows you to bypass the limit on dice thrown, helping a whole lot to get those 15+ ET spells out, regardless of the 1D6. Furthermore, these mechanics punish heavily dispels, too, so you don't need to go over the top. Heck, you could take lore of Undead, summon a unit of zombies, move into the unit in your next turn, and start spamming spells. You just out-Nagashed Nagash.

BSB with BotWD for extra cheese and protection from miscasts.

_________________
My standard gaming lists - 2500 pts.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:48 pm 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 7076
Location: The city of Spires
Shadeseraph wrote:
Frankly, given that using the Khaine Magic Rules is mandatory when using armies from that book, the best caster is, hands down, the Sorceress because of the dagger. Why? easy: The dagger allows you to bypass the limit on dice thrown, helping a whole lot to get those 15+ ET spells out, regardless of the 1D6.

Actually, I think it doesn't. End Times magic rules specify that items that grant extra dice to spells being cast can be used but they can never take the number of dice higher then the number rolled on the D6 for the amount of PD.

So when you roll a 4 on the D6 for the amount of PD, you can use 3 pool dice and a sac-dagger dice. But you can't use 4 pool dice and a 5th you get from the dagger.

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:10 pm
Posts: 721
Prince of Spires wrote:
Shadeseraph wrote:
Frankly, given that using the Khaine Magic Rules is mandatory when using armies from that book, the best caster is, hands down, the Sorceress because of the dagger. Why? easy: The dagger allows you to bypass the limit on dice thrown, helping a whole lot to get those 15+ ET spells out, regardless of the 1D6.

Actually, I think it doesn't. End Times magic rules specify that items that grant extra dice to spells being cast can be used but they can never take the number of dice higher then the number rolled on the D6 for the amount of PD.

So when you roll a 4 on the D6 for the amount of PD, you can use 3 pool dice and a sac-dagger dice. But you can't use 4 pool dice and a 5th you get from the dagger.

Rod


The exact quote in regards to the rule is:

"Any special rules or magic items that modify the number of power dice used to cast a spell, will work just as they would have done previously; the only change is that the maximum number of dice you can choose is changed from 6 to the roll of a D6"

I admit I don't know by memory the exact wording of the dagger, nor I have a copy with me of the DE army book, but as long as the item itself doesn't cap at 6 max, it should work. The cap only applies to dice taken from the pool, not from other sources.

_________________
My standard gaming lists - 2500 pts.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:11 am
Posts: 246
I just checked and the item doesn't specify any cap. But after close examination, I'm pretty convinced that you can only make one 'successful' sacrifice per casting attempt. If you don't make the 4+ roll and the sacrifice fails, you can sacrifice again until it does, but once a successful sacrifice is made the wording of the rules do not allow for any more on that casting attempt. Therefore you are never going to get more than one extra power dice on any particular cast.

I was playing yesterday with repeated successful sacrifices with the dagger and I felt it was too overpowered - I was getting off the Metal End Times spell every turn. But if only one successful sacrifice per casting attempt is allowed, I'd say it is fine - bargain for the points in End Times, but no game breaker. Its main use, like book of hoeth, will be to keep low dice spam chains going, as well as a *little* extra help to get those big spells.

But I think Shades is right and you would be allowed one extra dice over the D6 casting limit.


Last edited by Ladril Caledor on Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group