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 Post subject: Dealing with wood elves
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:51 am 
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Hi guys.

So now some time after the new wood elf book has been released and we all got to play some games vs. our brothers from the woods, I would like to hear how you guys deal with them.
I think that most competitive wood elf lists looks something like this:
3-4 unites of wild riders
Sisters
2 lvl. 4's (always high magic and then either shadow or metal). One mage with the moonstone.
BSB with hail of doom
3-4 units of glade guards with trueflight
10 waywatchers
2 eagles
maybe some waystalkers

Whenever I can tailor my list to play wood elves, I never leave home without 3 x soul Quench's, frostheart, 4x bolt throwers. Then I usually end up taking a star/moon dragon + silver helm bus with 2 nobles and 2 mages. So far most wood elf players I have meet, did have a very hard time against such a list.

Things I struggle with:
- Brutal magic phases.
- Waystalkers (they are made for killing our characters!)

What tools in our army do you find the most effective against wood elves?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:25 am 
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Intercept their shampoo supplies. Offer them cheap shampoo as an alternative, and ambush them when they turn up grumpy with oily hair.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:08 pm 
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Wood Elves are a very hard matchup for us. It is currently one of the biggest worries I have when designing lists. I was speaking to a fellow High Elf player yesterday which played a very strong list at a tournament last weekend and he lost 16 to a generic WE list. The problem is basically that they shoot a lot better than us and we can't catch them. When they first came out I didn't think it was that bad, but now I have had quite a few games against them and some of the players at our club plays them really well and it's just a nightmare. What's more is that they seem to be really strong against many of the other meta-builds out there as well. Warriors are frequently brought up as a problem for WE, but I just don't see it. Consider the following build:

L4 High, scroll, MR3, horse
L4 Shadow, power scroll, moonstone, horse
4 Waystalkers
BSB HODA, horse

Trueflight core

BIG unit of Wild Riders with discipline
A unit of scouts or two

2 Eagles
As many Waywatchers as you can afford

So there's a huge bunker which basically zones just about everything in Warhammer. With 3 S5 AP attacks per model on the charge it's just devastating. Do the math on these guys vs anything from Silver Helms to White Lions: High Elves just die in droves. Furthermore they're fast cav so positioning will always be perfect and with moonstone, they can basically just teleport across the table for both offensive and defensive purposes. 4 Waystalkers are just brutally strong against anything with a T less than 5. Against Daemon Princes etc, Withering really helps out. Ever seen what Waywatchers and Waystalkers do to a T3 Daemon Prince? It ain't pretty. Furthermore using the scroll to stop Withering early on is a nightmare as the power scrolled mindrazor is an everpresent threat.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:58 pm 
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I almost agree with everything you said Guru.
Yeah double lvl. 4's are very brutal in a wood elf army. However Wild riders are not my main problem, since they are frenzy and very fragile to shooting. A frost phoenix can also relatively easy take a charge from them. Having to perform that overrun really hurts them, in my opinion. However they counter our ASL white lions and swordmasters very very good. I do see the Sisters of thorn or Waywatchers as a better bunker however. Besides, they can take miscast better.
Waystalkers and the core trueflight are very deadly to high elves I would say. With our low toughness these units are so dangerous. But our bolt throwers coupled with other things which they also need to shoot (phoenixes) makes a good counter. High magic is also really good against both dark elves and wood elves.
In my area I start to see more and more wood elf players, which really pushes the meta. In a upcoming tournament, where characters are allowed, I simply dare not take Teclis, because of waystalkers.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:21 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
With 3 S5 AP attacks per model on the charge it's just devastating. Do the math on these guys vs anything from Silver Helms to White Lions: High Elves just die in droves.


Phoenix Guard? Anecdotally, but mine totally tanked the charge and caught them on the flee. I don't think my opponent played to their strengths, but 4++ (or 3++) S4 razor retaining ASF re-rolls IIRC is a tough nut to crack.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:23 pm 
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A frostheart phoenix taking a charge from a 2-counter Wild Rider unit with BSB is looking at the following:
- charge
- rank
- banner
- bsb
You will likely cause 0 wounds in return, resulting in a -4 break test before we even factor in the Wild Riders' doing some damage in return. Wild Riders as a bunker is extremely powerful with High Magic and I believe we'll see a rise in their popularity. As far as vulnerability to shooting goes they are fast cav and can thus usually get favourable positions. Furthermore I don't seem to ever be able to prioritize them as shooting back at their shooters is almost always more important.

Phoenix Guard are strong vs Wild Riders, true, but they won't ever catch anything to gain points either. Whatever they're housing in terms of characters are susceptible to Waystalkers as well and with a strong phase with Withering, the Wood Elf player can simply just kill them all.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:12 pm 
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Quote:
A frostheart phoenix taking a charge from a 2-counter Wild Rider unit with BSB is looking at the following:
- charge
- rank
- banner
- bsb
You will likely cause 0 wounds in return, resulting in a -4 break test before we even factor in the Wild Riders' doing some damage in return. Wild Riders as a bunker is extremely powerful with High Magic and I believe we'll see a rise in their popularity. As far as vulnerability to shooting goes they are fast cav and can thus usually get favourable positions. Furthermore I don't seem to ever be able to prioritize them as shooting back at their shooters is almost always more important.

Phoenix Guard are strong vs Wild Riders, true, but they won't ever catch anything to gain points either. Whatever they're housing in terms of characters are susceptible to Waystalkers as well and with a strong phase with Withering, the Wood Elf player can simply just kill them all.


Sure getting charged by a 2-counter 10 model strong unit of wild riders is not good for any unit. I was also merely referring to a normal unit of wild riders (5-7 models). However, you should never allow such a unit the charge, and even if they get it, they still need to pursue or overrun, which puts their mage in places he most likely don't wanna be. If that unit is getting charged, it is in deep problems.
You can neutralize such a unit fairly easy by just parking chaff in front of it and of course making sure you can flank the thing, when it overruns. Sure they can just run around your chaff unit, but at least they can't charge. In the wood elf army we are both referring to, there is only really wild riders, which your chaff should be occupied with and you can prioritize your shooting on anything else :) .
One other big disadvantage of such a bunker is when that miscast happen. It will really hurt it a lot with only a 6++.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:27 am 
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In elf v elf, keeping redirectors alive and within range of where they need to be is more difficult than usual. Maybe eagles > reavers here.

Unfairly, High Magic is also quite good against High Elves.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:58 am 
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A buddy of mine plays a list almost exactly like what OP described and I must admit, I have a really hard time. I've tried counter building the list but haven't had much success. He runs shadow magic and when a mindrazored wildrider unit hits my frost pheonix, it doesn't even stand a chance. Too many games of 0-1 hit and with an instant kill on return.

Eagles and reavers don't seem to do much. Usually on a stand and shoot, they all die. Kind of a frustrating match up, but thats just how it is right?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:04 am 
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Can't you scroll the Mindrazor AS?

What list are you running?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:08 pm 
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ArcaneSnow wrote:
Eagles and reavers don't seem to do much. Usually on a stand and shoot, they all die.

And why do eagles die to stand and shoot? In CC again elves, they'll die anyway. They should stay hidden/in cover until they can jump to prevent a unit from charging - and Wild Riders are a very good target for this, since they have to overrun due to being frenzied. That can at least prevent a charge on the Frostheart for a turn.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:28 pm 
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If you've got BSB within 12", frostie should hold Wild Riders first round then grind them down. Though as it flies and they don't I'm not sure they should be getting the charge here.

As long as you can stop the Mindrazor.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:03 am 
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I just played in a 1 day US Masters qualifying tournament and faced Wood Elves in my first two games, in the hands of very skilled generals. The tournament used the Swedish Comp, and gave 100 victory points per comp point, and comp was limited to 5+. I ran a combined arms list with a loremaster, silverhelm bus with Seredain prince, 20 man PG block and a unit of 14 swordmasters, backed by 2 RBT, a unit of archers, and small chaff units of 5 sisters and 5 shadow warriors. I lost against WE both times, 9-11 and 6-14. My list comped at a 13, and so did both of my opponents, so that element of scoring did not come into play for me.

I think that our best bet against them is a highly mobile attacking list with a static shooting base. Go full steam ahead towards the enemy L4 bunker turns 1-3, using your fast chaff turns 1 and 2, and slower chaff turns 2 and 3. Wild Riders are very strong, but suffer from overruns just like any other frenzied unit. Using magic is the key to keeping your chaff alive, as is providing sufficient target saturation. Surprisingly, my swordmasters were almost never targetted by the enemy because the fast elements of my army were putting too much pressure in the backfield.

In terms of magic, I target waywatchers first, utilizing the Loremaster's two potent magic missiles. These are must-stop for the WE player, but usually one will get through. Miasma is the only solution to Trueflight core, as they use their BS without any shooting modifiers. Making trueflight glade guard hit on 5's for one powerdie is very satisfying. Iceshard still works on Waywatchers and anything not Trueflight. With the rise in Wood Elf armies I am going to try to bring a L1 scroll caddy wielding fire magic. Although the character bus will always have MR, the rest of the army suffers dearly from fireballs.

For lists not taking the Loremaster, I am not sure what to do. High magic is aces, as unforging can always ruin anyone's day, and Tempest is actually decent for once. Soul Quench can be hard to get in rage and arc depending on where your mage is, but it melts units very efficiently. I would recommend L4, L2, and the Ring of Fury in any list hoping to take down our forest cousins. The Ruby Ring is another great choice if you are tailoring, or know that you will need magic missile support (if your L4 is Shadow, Death, or Life).


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