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 Post subject: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:48 pm 
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Hi guys.

How do you deal with steamtanks and in general 1+ armour saves? It seems to me that High magic is getting more popular, but it has no answer to these threats what so ever. Bolt throwers are good against low toughness, high amour stuff, but against steam tanks it seems useless.

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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:07 pm 
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RBT have a 4+ to put D3 wounds on it with no saves. Losing even a few wounds can slow it down a lot. 4 bolt shooters are a decent counter to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:24 pm 
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4 bolters plus an arcane unforging each turn is a serious threat. Or a Loremaster, with searing doom to go along with your archmage on High Magic. Or a Noble with the Star Lance.


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:41 am 
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Death
Maybe metal
Just chip wounds off the stank. Stank you either chip some wounds off its and send chaff to slow it down / block it and ignore it for the rest of the game OR you go balls to the walls and put everything into it.
As for 1+ you need anything with at least S6 strength...preferrably S7 otherwise you other choices are single shot from RBT or magic or if you are lucky you can try panicing them off :p

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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:13 am 
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Even doing a few W's to a stank will change the way it plays so get those W's in early to reduce the effectiveness of this beast.


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:20 am 
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I can't remember the stats of the tank, but I think if it loses 3 wounds it's effectiveness is reduced by half.

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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:41 am 
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Sackree wrote:
I can't remember the stats of the tank, but I think if it loses 3 wounds it's effectiveness is reduced by half.

Somewhat true
T6, W10
so if it takes 3W it'll be down to W7 which means it'll misfire on 8,10,misfire = 50% chance of misfire.

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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:03 pm 
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Quote:
4 bolt shooters are a decent counter to it.

Well 4 bolt throwers will on average put 2 wounds on the stank every turn. This is assuming that all 4 can hit it on a 4+ which is highly unlikely.
I usually bring 3-4 bolt throwers in most list, and normally I really try to avoid shooting at toughness 6 stuff, because it will happen, more often then not, that you will see a whole round of shooting doing absolutely nothing.

Really like lore of metal for the purpose of handling high amour. I would even go so far as to call it very underrated by most players. It goes really well with our troops, however the only thing it is lacking is some good protection buffs for our fragile elites.


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:24 pm 
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As mentioned, as soon as you put three wounds on it you can switch the RBT's to other targets if desired because the malfunctions slow the Stank down big time. That's the strength of RBT, that they can counter different targets at different times in the game. If you have Withering or Harmonic Convergence this helps.

Metal can be great but it needs a complement lore because it's not optimal against armies that lack armour.

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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:55 pm 
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While High Magic might not be the best vs a Steam Tank, I don't think I've ever fought Empire where the STank is my biggest concern. Just keep firing single bolts at it. Meanwhile, Walk is a terrific spell against them, arcane helps remove those annoying runefangs/crowns/scrolls and Drain is absolutely a killer vs both Life and Light, both highly popular among Empire armies.

How I deal with armour depends on my list. The STank is typically dealt with by RBTs. If I run death, purple sun is a strong counter. If I run the Loremaster, boosted Searing Doom tends to find its targets plentiful and fearing for their safety. If I run the Dragon, a Star Lance + Star Dragon will grind down the STank. Demis can be beaten on combat resolution, same for their busses.

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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:57 pm 
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You also have the option of limiting its movement with faster units depending on how your group rules 'rail-roading' and some of the intricacies of random movement.


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:00 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Just keep firing multi-bolts at it.


Mathematically single bolts are better than multi-bolts against a steam tank (unless you can get of some hexes on it).

Single bolt hit: 1 hit * 1/2 chance to wound * 1/1 chance to get past armour * 2 (d3 wounds) = 1 expected wound per hit

Multi-bolt, 6 hits: 6 hits * 1/6 chance to wound * 1/3 chance to get past armour =0.33 expected wounds per 6 hits

Even if you discount the d3 multiple wounds factor (i.e. when it only has one wound left) the single bolt is still better.


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:57 pm 
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My bad, I meant single bolt. I never fire multibolts at a stank. Post edited :)

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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:52 am 
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I feel it comes down to how you've constructed your army. My recent army is based around only having core troops and characters(it's made before the FAQ change so 25% lords/heroes) And after my first game I immediately found out my level 2 High mage would be better suited as a level 2 metal mage(also, the kickass guy doing the devil sign has to be a metal mage) because high armour is pretty hard to work with with limitations of that kind.

Now other players might take lots of boltthrowers, or white Lions. So I suspect our three biggest counters to that type of enemy would be RBT, White Lions and lore of metal. Regarding White Lions I think of small units of ten, being stubborn I think they could hold it a few turns and bring a wound or two. Lastly I'm thinking reavers/eagles/shadow warriors could do a fine job in stearing it in a straight line.


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:12 am 
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Viale wrote:
I feel it comes down to how you've constructed your army. My recent army is based around only having core troops and characters(it's made before the FAQ change so 25% lords/heroes) And after my first game I immediately found out my level 2 High mage would be better suited as a level 2 metal mage(also, the kickass guy doing the devil sign has to be a metal mage) because high armour is pretty hard to work with with limitations of that kind.

Now other players might take lots of boltthrowers, or white Lions. So I suspect our three biggest counters to that type of enemy would be RBT, White Lions and lore of metal. Regarding White Lions I think of small units of ten, being stubborn I think they could hold it a few turns and bring a wound or two. Lastly I'm thinking reavers/eagles/shadow warriors could do a fine job in stearing it in a straight line.


Metal works, the loremaster has a few options and a prince or anoited with a giant blade/starlance is an option. My favourite was lore of beasts which has both savage beasts and amber spear.

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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:31 am 
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I feel that every high elf list, should have a clear idea of how it will handle high amour saves, since I see it as our main challenge. My last game was vs. an empire army with a steam tank, demi's and inner circle knights. Even with my 4 bolt throwers I couldn't handle these three units all with 1+ amour save. I was running elite infantry with phoenix guards and swordmasters, which both lack the strength to punch through armour :? .

Absolutely love high magic, but I feel you really need to have some tools for amour if you are only running this lore. I usually take a noble with the star lance, Frost Phoenix and bolt throwers.


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:41 am 
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Your problem is that you were running PG and SM, which is a bad combination from the getgo. With PG + Razor Standard + High Magic and White Lions as your secondary unit with a secondary lore as well, you would have been just fine with 4 RBTs supporting you.

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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:13 pm 
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Andros123 wrote:
I was running elite infantry with phoenix guards and swordmasters, which both lack the strength to punch through armour.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. You need to be able to deal with 1+ AS and this comes in at list creation. It isn't easy making an all-comers list and I think you're discovering more about how to do it. A good idea is to create a list and then think about what it might face i.e. can I fight avoidance DE, horde Skaven, 1+ AS Empire, etc, etc. This will help you create a more balanced list with all the tools it needs.


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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:24 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Your problem is that you were running PG and SM, which is a bad combination from the getgo. With PG + Razor Standard + High Magic and White Lions as your secondary unit with a secondary lore as well, you would have been just fine with 4 RBTs supporting you.


Not everybody likes white lions. I will never run them because I think they are ugly and the premise for them being S-4 doesn't work for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Steamtanks and amour
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:48 pm 
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Rabidnid wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
Your problem is that you were running PG and SM, which is a bad combination from the getgo. With PG + Razor Standard + High Magic and White Lions as your secondary unit with a secondary lore as well, you would have been just fine with 4 RBTs supporting you.


Not everybody likes white lions. I will never run them because I think they are ugly and the premise for them being S-4 doesn't work for me.


Then you need to build a different list if you want to cope with armour, that really is how simple it is. I'm not a big fan of Lions either, but they are a necessary evil for some lists to work.

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