How do we deal with Karl Franz?

[Curu Olannon]

I have an upcoming tournament in January, Sheffield Slaughter, which is completely uncomped in terms of army composition. I expect End Times characters to make frequent appearances, and while I have some ideas for Nagash et. all, I am completely out of ideas for Karl Franz.

A quick rundown of what he is: 10 attacks that work like a Runefang, except he deals D3+1 wound. ITP, Stubborn, LD10, standard combined-profile, but here's the killer: He's 4++ with MR2.

So far I've been trying to come up with various ideas, but even a BOTWD-protected Prince is likely to die in a single round of combat and with him being stubborn, combat resolution is not an option. His toughness isn't much to write home about, but with nearly max. allowed wounds and the 4++ it's kinda hard to make the quality hits matter. He still has a decent armour save, so volume of attacks/fire won't help either.

The obvious candidates for dealing with him are the power-spells. Purple Sun needs him seriously reduced unless you're just praying for the 6. Dwellers + Enfeebling I suppose is one of the better bets, but still a longshot considering how hard this combo is to cast. Mindrazor is a good starting point, but without re-rolls to hit because of his high initiative and the 4++ it's still, at best, a longshot (a mindrazored Spearelf will on average deal ~0.2W to him, meaning it will take roughly 50 mindrazor-attacks to kill him. This can be improved significantly with TOTS and re-rolls, if you can bring his initiative down). Lastly there's Banishment. With a strong coven you can wound him on 2s and negate his armour save, meaning you will deal a little less than 2W on average per casting. This still requires 5 casts to bring him down, on average, which is not something that'll happen.

This leaves us with High Magic. Karl Franz' weakest point is definitely Arcane Unforging. The problem is, how do we weave High Magic into a build that is supposed to play in a close-to-uncomped environment? Thus far my infantry builds have all been centered on Light Magic as I believe it to be a key component to fighting big, bad nasties such as Nagash and multiple WoC Daemon Princes whereas my cavalry builds have all been centered around Life. Perhaps the latter could be better off with High as long as LoS! vs Dwellers is in play, but holding him off for long enough to get the crucial casts through (you really need it twice to reduce him to anything manageable, and even then he's quite fearsome). The bigger question is, how do we handle him while containing the rest of his army as well? He's cheaper than Nagash so I expect him to have 3 cannons, a couple of STanks and magical defense as backup...

This is officially the worst nightmare I have seen in Warhammer. This guy is completely nuts and I don't know how anyone is supposed to deal with him. He can basically go toe-to-toe with anything in Warhammer and just kill it and there's just about nothing you can do to try and stop him from doing so. Maybe Wood Elves with Shadow Magic + High Magic has a decent shot at him (Withering + Waywalker-spam with Hand of Glory boost and Arcane Unforging), I don't know.

[sandstorm]

As far as I am concerned, Teclis with Dwellers, Final Trans, Pit of Shades and Purple Sun spamming test or die spells on him over and over again until a 6 is rolled is probably our best bet. Eventually the 6 will come with repeated castings.

[Curu Olannon]

If you take Teclis he can just run straight home, into combat. What prevents him from doing just that? If you're lucky, you'll get one such cast off. True, Purple Sun helps and stubborn WL with 2++ vs him is sufficient to stay around for a while, but long enough? Maybe stubborn WL with Archers or something possibly flanking with Mindrazor is enough to keep him wary, but what prevents him from simply smashing apart said Archers (and the rest of your list, for that matter) instead?

[mcmulligan]

Simple answer, wait for whatever we get as an "Avatar of Khaine" in the next book...

Other than that, we have literally 0 options.

Even if your opponent was insane enough to charge him into a nice big huge block of BotWD protected silverhelms, he'll still kill off whatever you're trying to throw at him to tie him up in one round. And he's stubborn LD10.

We have no answer outside of ridiculous attempts at magic combinations, that you've already highlighted. Or attempting to arcane unforge him. I don't really see that as viable, since he WILL be in combat on turn 2, if you get first turn you have at best 2 attempts at the spell, and he'll have a scroll for one of them. And really, that's the only spell he cares about.

Honestly, our best bet is to not even try to kill him, but to keep him tied up with enough steadfast units that we can mop up the rest of the army, and hope that we end up on the winning side of that point exchange (which will be tough considering his damage output and how quickly he is going to tear through everything).

[John Rainbow]

I'm with both you and McMulligan here. Short of some magical help, I can't see much holding him off. Unlike McMulligan though, I don't see steadfast units being much help here as I don't see them staying steadfast for too long with 10 attacks and a thunderstomp coming at them as well as the bloodroar...

Mindrazor for the win?

[Sinsigel]

Unless all other armies' mounted characters get same treatment(i.e. lords on monsters using combined profile and saves)
and End Times : series are fully released, I don't think there is a decent way to effectively deal with Karl Franz.
It is a transitional period for warhammer fantasy IMO, and Empire simply happened to have the best tool meanwhile.

Personally, I would not participate in tournaments utilising rule sets which aren't even complete and heavily in favour of factions whose units and new rules are already covered in End Times series.

[Curu Olannon]

A mindrazored Silverhelmbus might be one of our best options. With the BOTWD-BSB staying out of B2B with him, he won't win combat. Even if he kills "a prince or two" he'll eventually lose out.

But... Shadow-bus? Viable? Possibly...

[John Rainbow]

I think you're right Curu about using this to kill Franz but it produces some other terrible matchups.

On the plus side this is pointing towards our Dragon Lords getting a bad-ass combined profile also. Though it might take a while to get round to us... (prays for Imrik to be included in the HE End Times book)

[mcmulligan]

Is getting your opponent so drunk that he forgets that he actually has the model considered a viable tactic?

There's also the ever-popular table flip option....

[Prince of Spires]

Things that could be considered kind of weak points, multi-wound weapons still only deal 1 wound to 1 wound models. So his fancy weapon is more or less useless against standard cavalry and infantry. Just don't get any multi-wound models in B2B with him.

And of course, BotWD is a big bonus vs him.

Thunderstomp only works vs infantry (and some other stuff we don't have).

Immune to psychology means no fleeing from charges.

Low T.

With that in mind, options that come to mind:

WL or DPs with BotWD. Both receive a 2+ ward vs his 10 attacks. DPs have the advantage of not suffering from thunderstomp (which is not magical...), which means you should suffer less then 1 wound per round of combat. Big unit, 2 ranks, banner, charge and you have him testing on 7. Better then nothing. 16 DP attacks should do a bit over 1 wound after saves. 16 mindrazored DP attacks should do 3.3. So if you can get more then 10 mindrazored DPs in combat with him, you could have him testing on 5 or so. Decent... Horded WL should get something like 3 wounds in as well. Only issue is they go second and suffer from thunderstomp.

PG mainly just keep him where he is. 10 attacks + 3.5 from stomp should kill something like 3.5 PG per round of combat or so. They're steadfast, ld9. so not going anywhere anytime soon.

Of course, getting him into those combats is the big issue here.

Final option is pray the Elves ET book arrives before your tournament and just take your straight 10 profile ASF kickass superstomping dragon + caledor.

Rod

[Sinsigel]

WL or DPs with BotWD. Both receive a 2+ ward vs his 10 attacks. DPs have the advantage of not suffering from thunderstomp (which is not magical...), which means you should suffer less then 1 wound per round of combat. Big unit, 2 ranks, banner, charge and you have him testing on 7. Better then nothing. 16 DP attacks should do a bit over 1 wound after saves. 16 mindrazored DP attacks should do 3.3. So if you can get more then 10 mindrazored DPs in combat with him, you could have him testing on 5 or so. Decent... Horded WL should get something like 3 wounds in as well. Only issue is they go second and suffer from thunderstomp. Rod

Well, except that the emperor is also stubborn.

[Prince of Spires]

Well, except that the emperor is also stubborn.

Right, glanced over that part... Still, keep those DPs mindrazored for 4 rounds of combat and you have a dead Karl Franz.

I do agree with Sinsigel that as long as not all ET books are done this seriously unbalances games to a point where I wouldn't like to play against them in an all comers setting.

Another option is Gravity + BRB (hardcover version). Does solve a lot of miniatures issues. Just might not make you any friends.

Rod

[Seredain]

Are we looking at Deathclaw here, or the imperial dragon?

As a Book of Hoeth 6 levels high magic user I feel *relatively* comfortable that I can arcane unforge this guy and then hurl ALL of my bolts at him till he becomes vulnerable to a charge from the foolhardy/OTS star lance prince or else a combat with my bus - maybe even the 3++ phoenix guard. What's he got a 3+ AS? Not so impressive without the ward save. 10 attacks with Ghal Maraz is unbelievably helluva good (I wish Teclis would give his own sword to someone who could actually use it), so obviously I'd hope to kill the hammer with unforging or combat is just a no-no for me unless he's on very few wounds so I could snipe him with ASF. So yeah I'd be 6-dicing unforging if I had to. If I do kill the hammer, then a giant blade cavprince plus shield of saphery (high mage) plus featherfoe torc (BSB), has a good shot. Even Karl Franz doesn't want to sit infront of 4 bolt throwers all game, so pursuading him to get pinned in combat, and then counter-attacking before the pinning unit melts (either with the star prince or the giant blade + featherfoe bus), is going to be the thing. Depends on what support he has, I guess. I'll probably need to spam-shoot cannons to death. Maybe throw the full bus at a steam tank to draw Karl out. Hard to say what a flyer is going to do, but winning the ranged war would seem to be a good start.

In any case, I'm loving high magic all-comers and unforging really makes it so good in a lord heavy meta (as do the ward saves), without sacrificing your ability to spam multi-hits, move units, burn big blocks against other kinds of list, all buffing your units' ward saves for combat with the big boys. Hand of Glory takes a big step up in lord-on-lord fights too because +D3 WS is the difference between hitting (and being hit) on 3s or 4s. I'm pretty happy that it gives you the tools. A model like this, all about the magic items, is a case in point.

The more I look (theoretically) at End Times, the more I also think that flying monsters/characters like Karl will be the big problem for those of us fielding ground-based forces. Featherfoe torc is therefore starting to feel like a very good shout for those of us who want to keep our princes safe from cannons by putting them with knights instead of on beasts.

All this change is exciting, isn't it? Like Axiem said it looks like the meta has just exploded with the force of a thousand new possibilities. This new one is an absolute beast but nerf his wings & steal his items and he's just a human riding a large parrot. Unless he's totally undercosted points-wise, in which case he'll make me cry.

P.S. I agree with what you say Rod re. the possibilities offered by 1 wound models. Seems to me that the biggest losers in a game with lords like this (and lords generally) is going to be monstrous cavalry. Very little static res, very little steadfast, lords hit them on 3s, penetrate their armour and withstand the return attacks. I therefore think that infantry will have room to make a comeback. Unlike moncav, solo lords can be challenged out by a lowly champion and made to do nothing for a round. After that, the vast majority of lords (including monster lords) kill fewer infantry models than monstrous cavalry do. Even Karl himself will only kill 10 archers in a round compared with 4 skullcrushers' 15, and he doesn't even have the one rank. Hitting on 3s, he'll still only kill three 3++ phoenix guard per turn. Even medium-largish infantry blocks can be steadfast honey traps against these super-charged ET lords. We just need enough of a ranged threat (and arcane unforging) to force them to look for a safe haven in combat. Pin them, then either leave them there and kill their army with our own heroes, or bring in a counter charge.

Regardless, if more lords means fewer mournfang (or lets people tackle them more directly), I think infantry across many army books can retake its place in the game's rock-paper-scissors.

[vespacian1]

Not for nothing, but savage bubbled on multiple combat characters is another option. He's likely to kill all or most of them, but 3 nobles with asf is 9 hits wounding on 2s, that's 3.75 wounds roughly. That, combined with general attrition has a shot. Not a big one, but better than zero.

Curse can also reduce response attacks.

All in all its bad, but with new uber characters I do see beasts improving in efficacy. Both savage and Amber spear are solid anti character options and curse can reduce their effectiveness.
Still think if you know the match up high edges it out though.

Can't wait for our new toys...

[mcmulligan]

In all seriousness, feeding him champions is your best bet.

6 reavers with a champ will (likely) hold him for 2 rounds. Continue charging units into that combat that have champions, to keep the steadfast units tying him up. Assuming he gets into combat on turn 2, and by turn 6 everything has moved out of his charge arc, you need to keep him tied for 4 rounds. Doable. He'll probably pick the first combat he gets into, but assuming all of your units have champions, then this strategy still holds.

But, you also run the risk of losing one of those leadership tests.

6 man helm darts with champs, also a good option.

Keep in mind life too (which is pretty decent against empire anyway) and regrowth brings the champion back to life first.

I really think that trying to kill him is going to be the wrong goal.

Honestly, Nagash worries me more thanks to his ridiculous summoning abilities.

[John Rainbow]

FYI he is 810pts for all this:
https://www.facebook.com/ForgeTheNarrat ... =1&theater

[SpellArcher]

I believe the organiser is holding fire on Glottkin for now?

Can't see him being too happy to allow double Skillcannon WoC with improved Reign of Chaos. Unstable or no.

[Curu Olannon]

Lots of good ideas here. This was the main topic today at the club as well. Let me reply to you one by one:

@John - Yes, ours will be strong as well. But they're not necessarily here before January 23rd

@mcmulligan - I appreciate the creative input, but I want solid options here

@Rod - as has been pointed out, stubborn. DP with BOTWD is a place to start I suppose. I've had the same thought re:infantry. White Lions wear him down over time and also provide a bunker from which a deathmage can spam purple sun until he fails his I test. This is actually kinda bad as he basically does T-stomp + 1 wound per turn or so, meaning stubborn lions take forever to kill.

@Seredain you can't clip his wings: He's combined profile with almost 10 wounds. Arcane Unforging is really good, but it's direct damage so chances are you'll only get one cast. Maybe 2, but he'll always be in combat T2 pretty much. The problem is, if you unforge the hammer you are still facing 5 hits @S6 every single combat phase, on average (assuming WS7+). Even with Shield of Saphery, that is tough to weather. MC indeed got worse, but that's a good thing in my opinion

@vespacian1 - good point on Beasts. Transformation of Kadon is also quite powerful here.

@SA - I don't know what the orga is considering for him. Nagash is one thing, but he's actually trivial compared to Karl Franz. Doubly so because the latter can have insane support.

To give you an idea, consider the following:

Karl Franz - 810
Grandmaster, Runefang, Charmed Shield, Luckstone, Potion of Speed, Dragonbane Gem - 255
Captain, BSB, FPA, Barded Warhorse, Dawnstone, Great Weapon, TOTS, Dragonhelm ~160
L2 Life, scroll, warhorse ~140

14 Inner circle knights, FCG, standard of +1M: 395
5 Empire knights: 110
5 Empire knights: 110

3 Great Cannons - 360

~2325

We are looking at a 5 drop list with basically beyond insane pushing power. Furthermore it is complemented by sufficient artillery to actually put a lot of pressure on possibly enemy counters (not that most big things would want to engage this beast in the first place, but things like Nagash, Glottkin and possibly more ET madness to come can still hurt him).

Making a High Elf list capable of dealing with this without compromising too much looks to be a futile effort, in my opinion. You have to tailor too much to have a good chance. Sure, you can have a list that at least has some things it can try to do (e.g. Purple Sun for 6 turns, Arcane Unforging, Mindrazored infantry etc) but at the end of the day, this guy is flying and can basically pick whatever he wants to fight, engage and slowly but surely kill said unit. Yes, BOTWD is a decent protection here, but the other support units are strong against BOTWD-carriers. You are running Lions deep? Here, taste my triple cannon hitting 6 of them on average. Dragon Princes? Meet 1+ save Inner Circle Knights.

It is arguably other approaches that are even superior here. You *can* have double stanks alongside him for example...

[Sackree]

I think we all just have to remain calm, breath deeply, and count our blessings that we're not ogres.

It does seem to me that unforging plus bolt throwers are our best answer to him as it stands.

[Truthiness]

For now, I agree we would likely struggle to deal with KFA. High Magic I think is the key, but it's hard to get the mage in range without exposing yourself. I think in general I'm leaning away from my favored Loremaster and more toward High Magic thanks to this 50% lord thing. Arcane Unforging could be critical to dealing with merged profile monsters/riders.

I'm looking forward to if/when we get our merged list. I'm pretty sure it's coming, and pairing with Wood Elves will help a lot here. Here's the list I envision at 2500 points:

Mounted Spellweaver (High Magic)
HE BSB w/ Reaver Bow+PoS

2x 10 Hagbane Glade Guard
3x 5 Reavers

5x Sisters of the Thorn
2x 6 Wild Riders
27 White Lions w/ BOTWD
2x 7 Hagbane Scouts

Frostheart

Hagbane I think is going to really shine with all those Lords running around on monsters. It's also balanced to deal with other builds as well. High armor? Well I've got some Wild Riders and White Lions for you. Hordes? Good thing High Magic excels at taking down large blocks and Wild Riders hit like a piano smashing into the pavement.

Admittedly, that's a lot more Wood Elf than High Elf. However, the most critical part is just the Spellweaver with High Magic in a fast cav bunker. The rest of the army can be tailored to your style. By having that Spellweaver in a bunker (and therefore retaining the fast cav ability), it would help significantly with getting into range with Arcane Unforging while still avoiding combat with KFA. Once Ghal Maraz is gone you can pin him with a Frostheart. If you take down the Silver Seal, you can RBT and/or magic him to death. I despise Dark Elves, but imagine a High Magic Spellweaver in a Doomfire Warlock unit (if we end up able to do that). Franzy is so dead.

[Ferny]

Doom and Darkness+Static Res+BotWD? Hope for a failed (re-rollable?) 7.

[Seredain]

Curu, the "clip his wings" bit is the Featherfoe Torc. Put it on a support character in your cavbus (mine is BSB, Halberd, Charmed Shield, Golden Crown, Torc)and any flyer, rider or combined-profile flyer will be re-rolling successful hits on your giant blade prince. A pip or two of Shield of Saphery on him and you have a character who will do well in challenges against these kinds of monsters*. 4 bolt throwers and a decent amount of high magic, with Book of Hoeth to force it through, puts him under pressure. Elsewhere you can have a star lance prince ready to act as bolt thrower number 5 once he's weakened. I'll be using:

Prince - Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon, Dragon Armour, Shield, Barded Steed - 285
Prince - Star Lance, Armour of Destiny, Dragonbane Gem, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Weapon, Lion Cloak, Shield, Barded Steed - 272
Archmage - Level 4, High Magic, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation - 320

BSB – Featherfoe Torc, Charmed Shield, Golden Crown, Halberd, Dragon Armour, Barded Steed - 172
Mage - Level 2, High Magic, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Khaine's Fury, Elven Steed - 180

12 Silver Helms - Full Command, Shields - 306
21 Archers – Full Command - 240
5 Reavers - 80

20 Phoenix Guard - Keeper, Standard, Razor Standard - 365

4 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 280

2500 points

*First, arcane unforging. Take out the silver seal and you can shoot him with bolt throwers (I'd point everything else in range at him too - 3 soul quenches wounding on 5s is decent, and Karl's cannons will probably be targeting your bolt throwers). Combat can then finish him with ASF if he's low on wounds. If you take out the hammer instead, with the above setup you can take him in combat. A bit of Hand of Glory to have your prince hitting on 3s, and some Apotheosis to keep him in the game, plus Shield (something goes through), and you can grind him out.

Nothing's perfect - this guy's a beast - but Unforging, Book of Hoeth (or Power Stone), high magic buffs, 3 magic missiles, 4 bolt throwers, Featherfoe Torc and dual ASF princes feels like a decent combined counter which also has legs in an all-comers environment.

Truthiness, I like the phoenix guard unit for getting the level 4 in range safely. If Karl charges this unit, you challenge him out with the champ (he moves into base contact, away from your archmage), then you hold him for ages so long as you get one spell off to get the 3+ ward save. Of course a flyer can always stay more than 24" away from an infantry unit but, if he's feeling that timid, that would also keep him away from your characters - giving you more time to burn the scroll for when he finally comes in.

As Sackree said, plenty of armies are going to have it much worse than us against units like this.

[Curu Olannon]

Yes, I know we can load up on High Magic, RBTs and a bus to somewhat counter the usual suspects, but I don't think this approach is a good one in the face of the End Times and its meta. With your specific build Seredain you have an extreme weakness to WM heavy armies: 7 Helms dead and you have no LoS. Orcs and Goblins can easily manage this, foot followed by double doom divers + double bolt throwers + double catapults for example. Dwarfs, likewise. Chaos Dwarfs the same: Magma Cannons followed by Hellcannons and Deathshriekers. Then there's the Wood Elves around, which basically just shoot your entire bus to death (think 4 Waystalkers and 20 Waywalkers backed with High + Shadow and Trueflight core). While one wm-heavy army weakness isn't that big of a deal, having a weakness against all of them is. Even then, I wouldn't fancy this list's chances vs Karl Franz and Friends.

Then there are of course "the rest" out there which also have to be accounted for: Teclis in the usual WL bunker, DE flying circus, WoC trollspam, Empire Light-coven, dual-stank, triple-cannon, High Elf Dragonbuilds, VC scream-spam. There are so many things around where High Magic just feels insufficient in its own right. Coupled with the fact that there are armies you can't push against and armies that can push you with impunity and I think the proposed approach, at best, tries to do a little too much at once.

Oh and if Karl is challenged out by a champ, why can't he just combat reform to present his flank to the PG, thus getting the L4 in base contact again?

[Seredain]

Guess I'd better counter fast then! Or flank charge him with archers and challenge again. Seriously though 24" is a safe distance for an unforging cast - no flyer can make that charge.

It's funny but ever since I switched from 9-10 helms to 12 with ironcurse icon and 6 levels of high magic, I haven't lost the giant blade prince to war machines (the other two mounted characters are packing ward saves in any case). Obviously a Karl Franz thread isn't the place, but if you're interested in how I approach different war machine setups (they always scare me), let me know and I'll do a write-up.

[Prince of Spires]

Thinking about it, the scarecrow banner might actually be worth it vs KF if you have a spare 5 points and banner bearer. Taking away his terror is actually a bigger thing then in normal cases. rolling 3 dice, discard the lowest will mean a fair few failed terror tests (though more for other races then HE). So causing fear at least removes that disadvantage at little cost.

Thinking outside the box. Double loremaster + Teclis? 3 searing dooms + banishment + thunderbolt. In a big phase that could be 6D6 hits wounding on 3+, 2D6 S6 hits (s7 if you bring an extra light mage) and D6 S6 hits + D6S4 hits. Powerstone on one of the loremasters, the book on the other and use the moonstaff. Good luck warding all those. On average those should give you a dead KF in a single big magic phase. 7 wounds from 3 searing doom, 3 from banishment and 1 from thunderbolt.

And it's actually a combination that works on most big baddies out there. As long as they are sporting a decent armour save of course.

Rod

[Seredain]

I guess the flaw in the plan is hoping and praying for the big magic phase. But since his spell selection is so good you'd have to say Teclis is going to be the answer to lots of ET problems. If you didn't go the the SC dark side, Rod, what sort of tweaks could you make to your current list?

I was thinking more about challenging with champions this morning. They have to go in the front rank, I know, but isn't it right that there's nothing to stop them going on the front corner? So if your unit gets charged by a solo character, you suck him to one end of the unit with your challenge and make sure you've deployed the unit wide enough that the length of the monster's base can't reach a mage deployed on the far corner. Yon only need one rank for steadfast, so thinning your lines should work nicely.

Just make sure your local comp doesn't allow sliding. My club uses Mo comp, which doesn't.

[Prince of Spires]

Yeah, winds of magic reliance is the big flaw in the plan. Without the banner of sorcery (or equivalent), magic is a big reliability. I've had plenty of games where the first 3 turns (which are the phases that really matter here) gave me very low number of PD. After all, you roll below average about half the time. Powerstone, Teclis' staff and 4 channels (assuming a back-up lvl1/2 for s7 banishments) can mitigate it a bit. But if the empire brings life, then chipping wounds off KF over a few phases is less useful.

My current list usually sports a star dragon and Frosty, supported by a high mage, a medium sized PG block and DP bus. Against KF, the SD is a liability. He needs to stay away from him at all cost. 10 autowounding multiwound attacks that don't allow armour saves take care of a SD in no time.

I would consider feeding him small units and challenging him to tie him down, though you'd have to charge them in in your own turn. So T2, charge and challenge, pray you hold, T3, repeat. I would dedicate all my core to that. 2 units of reavers go first, since they can actually hope to catch him. Second wave would be archers and LSG (or whatever else I put in core). A change here would be to add champions to all units, which could be a zero-sum change. Drop a few models and replace with champions.

The rest of the army then would need to gather the remaining points as fast as possible. Even more so then normally. After that, keep out of his way as much as possible and hope to preserve enough points to scrape out a win. The only thing in the list with enough power to take KF out is also the thing that most needs to stay away from him.

Rod

[John Rainbow]

Just make sure your local comp doesn't allow sliding. My club uses Mo comp, which doesn't.

What about a combat reform?

[Seredain]

Yes John, that's what I mean. The rulebook says that you can't use a combat reform "to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in contact before the reform was made." So say the Franz is in combat with 6 models because of his cheeky sideways reform, he has to stay in combat with the same six models. No sliding sideways to bring the mage into combat (albeit retaining the same number of total models in combat).

That's how Mo comp plays it.

In which case, Karl moving side-on to a 3++ phoenix guard unit doesn't feel like a very good idea, assuming (as I think is the case), that he's on a chariot base. Front on he's getting hit by 12 attacks. Side on, he's getting hit by 19 (assuming my unit of 20 -1 for the dead champion). He gets no more attacks, he doesn't hit the mage (deploy 8 wide), he suffers 2 wounds instead of 1 and he's at minus 1 from being flanked.

3++ phoenix guard are actually pretty good against this relatively low toughness unit. If your shooting and magic does something on his way in, you could even grind him out. If not to death, then at least to the point where a star lance prince can finish him off.

[Feeblings]

Not really sure what you could do to deal with him, besides lots of lucky magic, however I would be extremely mad playing someone who just surprises me with Karl Franz. If it was a friendly game I'd like to at least be given notice of the person using him beforehand, because in my opinion it's kind of cheap. Especially since we don't have our super end times unit yet. And even if we did I wouldn't want to use it, unless to combat something like Franz.