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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:54 am 
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So compared to my original, this list basically switches Alith Anar for 4xRBT and switches the handmaiden PoS for a High Mage. The idea here is to a) maximise the volume of shooting to take advantage of withering (rather than the accurate high strength stuff) and b) to have dual 3++ blocks of PG supported by shadow :twisted: :twisted: ! In theory this list will struggle against high T/AS opponents (IMO Alith and Handmaiden dealt with them better than RBTs), but with two wizards I can put the scroll on the Lv2 giving the lord access to the power stone/scroll to force through mindrazor.

I also think there's scope for some fun character shenannigens with this list...stubborn PG on Ld10 re-roll which can reform wide to protect characters and get more PG attacks in. Smoke and mirrors to get the AM out of the combat unit and the High Mage in...

Lords: 320max
Archmage Lv 4, Shadow, 320max
Power Scroll/Stone, Ring of Fury, ward/MR

Heroes: 335
Lothern Sea Helm, BSB, 175
Shield of MyrWyrm, Crown of Command

Mage Lv2, High, 160
Scroll, MR1

Core: 608
30x Archers, FC 360
6x silver helms, ch+st, 158
5x reavers, mus, 90

Special: 660
18xPG, FC, Razor Banner, 345
18xPG, FC, Banner of Discipline, 315

Rare: 478
4x RBT, 280
7x Sisters, 98
2xEagles, 100

Edit: I'm not even thinking swedish now so I haven't checked comp (though it's probably not too bad on comp) - this is just a straight up list which I think might be strong.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:39 am 
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I like it.

I know Power Scroll is highly regarded on Shadow but my question is this:

"Forcing through Mindrazor can be a case of simply exploiting a 7v5 or 6v4 dice split say by throwing six dice at it. What are the mechanics of getting it through on three dice say, in a typical phase? How do you draw the DD to make it happen?"

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:48 am 
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You don't force it like that, you threaten with it. You cast Withering, then Miasma. Opponent out of DD? Winrazor!! The sheer threat of it with a power scroll in hand means opponents won't stop your other spells, which can frequently be killers on their own.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:06 am 
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So you get to keep the PS in hand as a big stick for future turns Curu? Sometimes though you badly need to get Mindrazor off that turn. What then?

I'm guessing it's also useful for when winds are low? So even if you roll a 3v2 say, you can get Mindrazor off.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:28 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
So you get to keep the PS in hand as a big stick for future turns Curu? Sometimes though you badly need to get Mindrazor off that turn. What then?

I'm guessing it's also useful for when winds are low? So even if you roll a 3v2 say, you can get Mindrazor off.


That's why I'm tempted by the stone rather than the scroll - it doesn't necessarily threaten IF as strongly, but it would boost a low winds phase (when they're perhaps also less likely to get double 6).

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:42 am 
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Ferny are you talking about the rulebook version of Power Scroll?

It was Errata'd. It now simply halves the Casting Value for the spell.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:49 am 
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It's also why I went stubborn seahelm and Ld10 for one unit. Lions can tank a turn on stubborn but PG can tank it on ward...but sometimes you fluff their wards and you're looking at a dicey break test...but with stubborn (and re-rollable 10) getting Mindrazor off on *that* turn becomes less imperative. I figured the extra points for seahelm would help keep him out of trouble and the shield is a poor mans ward which is no bad thing for the points. Meanwhile, the AM can be in the unit for Ld10 bubble or he can smoke and mirrors out for the high mage ward saves and the unit remains Ld10.

This list feels pretty strong for me. WoC units seem to optimise around 18. I know they're considered slow, but I think there's enough shooting in this list to be defensive (force the push) against most armies, and if I needed to advance into a dwarven gunline I could in principle even deploy the PG (or one unit at least) 18 wide to minimise war machine impact, given the seahelm reform, stubborn and smoke and mirrors...

I think it'd be a pain to fight against, even uncomped. Thinking of some of the big lists out there:

HE star dragon...he has a lot to tank and mindrazor is risky for him
WE BS spam...with RBT I have the range to return the threat and PG are the best unit we have for tanking hagbane or trueflight, especially when backed up by high...shadow maybe doesn't help so much here, but miasma and dual soul quench provide options
DE peg spam...perhaps tricky because of all the ward saves, but I don't think there are many soft points to be had from my list?
DE fast cav bus or HE helmbus - I think I can tank it
WoC DP, skullcrushers, chariots, chimeras...I think between shooting, magic and wards its not too bad
Empire heavy metal...as WoC
Empire light council...banishment is a threat, but that might be about it?
Deamons (nurgle, skullcannons, horrorcore or nurglecore)...I think is fine, even without banner
VC blender...risky, but with 4++ or 3++ and good options on his unit I think I could easily win combat and res, if he's in a bus all the better as it can be targetted with shooting where kills might actually count.
VC toys...Magical shots and soulquenches vs hexwraiths, RBTs vs terrorghiests...I think it's OK
OK gutstar...as WoC and Empire

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:54 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Ferny are you talking about the rulebook version of Power Scroll?

It was Errata'd. It now simply halves the Casting Value for the spell.


I was and I did not know that (I don't think I've ever seen it in 8th...or perhaps ever) - it was Dennis' list which made me look again at it. Makes Mindrazor what, casting value 9? With a Lv4 you could do a risky 2 dice or a confident 3 if your opponent is out of dice.

I think I prefer the stone though; an extra 2 dice (avg score 7) could really swing it towards casting value 14 in a low dice phase, in which case they're less likely to have the dice to dispel. In a high dice phase you can hopefully get high+withering+miasma through before they throw all their dice at mindrazor...or they dispel them and you get mindrazor. Either way, feels pretty winsome.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:03 pm 
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It seems to me that the advantage of Power Scroll over Power Stone for Shadow is that it lets you cast Mindrazor with minimal chance of miscasting. Especially for a list lacking World Dragon.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:05 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
It seems to me that the advantage of Power Scroll over Power Stone for Shadow is that it lets you cast Mindrazor with minimal chance of miscasting.


4D6 on normal mindrazor = 55.6% chance to cast
2D6 on power scrolled mindrazor = 83.3% chance to cast

Considering many comp systems penalize PD generation and cap magic (or, in the case of ETC, mindrazor in particular) at 4PD, the advantages of a power scroll become very clear.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:10 pm 
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This comes of not being used to playing under such caps!

Put like that, the advantages are stark.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:41 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
2D6 on power scrolled mindrazor = 83.3% chance to cast

Considering many comp systems penalize PD generation and cap magic (or, in the case of ETC, mindrazor in particular) at 4PD, the advantages of a power scroll become very clear.


Even without comps, Mindrazor on 83% with 2D6 is horrific!

Can you imagine a list with BoH Loremaster and PowerScroll Shadow (or Death I guess) - no-one would ever dispel anything for *the FEAR* of a gamewinner coming out, leaving you free to cast earthblood, miasma (twice!), iceshard, wyssans...whatever combat buff you want.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:01 pm 
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I find that the Loremaster is primarily strong once combat hits home. Hence, half the idea of pairing him with a wizard is to add to your magical threats before combat is started. To this end, I think Shadow is a poor fit since it is also, largely, a combat lore. I think High Magic is well suited here, because of Arcane Unforging and Walk Between Worlds both having the potential to draw scrolls very early on. Death could also work :) The point however is that I don't think Loremaster + Shadow is the way to go, it's simply overkill on combat buffs. Comparing this to Dennis' list, we see that his choice of metal greatly augments shadow: Searing Doom and Final Transmutation are real killers and with BoH he can really make those early magic phases count. Furthermore, being able to spam stuff like Plague of Rust / Blades of Aiban gradually pushes the game into HE favour...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:10 pm 
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try a lvl 2 with fire and ring of fury with the lore master. gives you... 2x fireball, ring, light default, metal default, death default. Lots of raw damage until you get to CC. There is also a chance to roll flaming sword with the lvl2.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:05 pm 
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Lord Anathir wrote:
try a lvl 2 with fire and ring of fury with the lore master. gives you... 2x fireball, ring, light default, metal default, death default. Lots of raw damage until you get to CC. There is also a chance to roll flaming sword with the lvl2.


Yeah, that is the old seerstaff lvl 2 I used a lot at one point. Metal, fire and beasts (amber spear) The original way of dribbling spells out when we actually had a power dice advantage.

I've never really looked at the power scroll, experiments are in order.

And Ferny, i get a Swedish score of 8.7 for your list.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:33 pm 
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Lord Anathir wrote:
try a lvl 2 with fire and ring of fury with the lore master. gives you... 2x fireball, ring, light default, metal default, death default. Lots of raw damage until you get to CC. There is also a chance to roll flaming sword with the lvl2.


And miss out on Hand of Glory, Walk Between Worlds, 3++ CC PG, Arcane Unforging, Drain Magic... Too situational, in my opinion.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:41 am 
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Nice list, Ferny. But what about discussion about tactics? :)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:31 am 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Nice list, Ferny. But what about discussion about tactics? :)


another time buddy. In so far as I'm thinking tactics its generic: will i push or be defensive? How will i keep the general alive? How will i keep (dual) 3++ active? How do i cope w poor magic phase, or casting priority for good...or not having spells i need. Do i have a tool for everything, from armour to hordes to wards etc. Just generics. I'm still playing irregularly so cant even nail down solid practice with a single list, let alone explore new ones irl...

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:42 am 
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Pity. I thought that since you have posted your topic in the tactics section the army list building is just an introduction. Hopefully you will get some games at some stage to provide some tactical observations.

Good luck!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:35 am 
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Good point, let's talk about tactics a little bit! Even though you haven't played the list yet, there is a lot we can discuss here.

First of all, deployment. I would, in most cases, adopt a safeguard-the-shooters philosophy where you place the Archers on an extreme flank (i.e. one flank next to the table edge), covered by PG on the open flank. To achieve this, you need to lure out your opponent to avoid having the Archers opposite his army (where they won't be doing anything). The good thing for you is that you have 4 drops to help you do this: Reavers, Helms and Eagles can all be deployed in a non-committing fashion. This gives you enough time to force most opponents to commit.

After this, you plug down the Archers followed by both units of PG on the open flank. RBTs go on the very table edge (a common rookie mistake is to place them 12" onto the board, which in effect means your opponent will charge them T2 instead of T3 as well as get very favourable overruns), preferably spread out with more than 12" so enemies can't overrun from one into another. In any case, over 6" should be a must unless you intend to play a very defensive game or you are facing Dark Elves: In the first case you can group them around your BSB/General bubble, in the second you can afford to be a little more tight because of Valour of Ages.

What I see as your main challenge here is how to score points. Obviously your list is a shooty one, but it's not -that- shooty: With only a Shadow Mage to worry about, dispels can be prioritized and many lists don't care that much about this type of shooting. Daemons for example. At the same time, you need to force opponents to come at you and beat them in combat. With only 18PG having the effect of razor standard, this could be an issue. To further evaluate these issues however, we need games to observe how the list plays in practice ;) I do see these as your 2 biggest challenges though: How do you deal with enemy shooters (e.g. WE, DE, DW) and how do you beat strong pushing lists (e.g. DoC, HE, WoC)?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:46 am 
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I'd have thought that any phase the enemy doesn't get six dispel dice, Withering is probably going through? This looks like it could make a big difference against Daemons say. The two High spells could complicate the enemy's defence too.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:53 pm 
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Many armies don't care enough about withering to warrant stopping it before combat is started. This High Elf army has very few models that can actually make an impact, which means that the scroll might very well be alive once combat has begun. That creates a big problem for making your magic count. High Magic *could* be a solution here, but roughly half the games will see you roll non-scrollworthy spells.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:02 pm 
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But if you Wither a Daemon unit and then shoot it with 30 Archers and 4 RBT that is going to hurt, surely?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:11 pm 
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Is it? DoC don't have a scroll, regardless :)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:11 pm 
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I'd forgotten that!

If we assume a double Herald MSU list with cannon I guess the main targets are Drones and Beasts. I figure you could shoot two off per turn if they're Withered which might not be scrolled even if they had one. Though you might get a third Beast if the Sisters can wound. I guess it's a case of whether PS Mindrazor lets you fend off the rest of it.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:00 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Pity. I thought that since you have posted your topic in the tactics section the army list building is just an introduction. Hopefully you will get some games at some stage to provide some tactical observations.

Good luck!


It's just a consequence of where the conversation led (I also think without batreps to give a focus for tactical discussion, conversation will tend to lead in this direction). My initial post was asking for info on the Swedish meta. This led to looking at list building options within that environment (an essential next step for me, though not necessarily what the original post was about, so I re-named it), and that chain of thought - combined with seeing the Swedish bowline army I posted elsewhere - led me to the 'non-Swedish' list. I kept it in this topic though because it was a natural evolution of the conversation which was being had, but I re-named the topic to reflect the current focus. (It could almost do with another re-name RE: shadow powerscroll, but as that isn't the direction I'm looking to take it in - though am very happy to discuss as I brought it up - I probably won't). I always try to post my initial posts in the appropriate forum, but lists and tactics and items and deployment and everything can easily blur together from there. I see the forum structure as providing a useful shortcut to what you might expect a topic to contain but I don't think it can be 100% prescriptive, and I view all my stuff through the 'active topics' tab so I pick and choose what looks interesting to read rather than picking any particular subforum.

Anyway, I shall return to the topic shortly - my laptop is broken so I had to come back to the office to log in and I've got a few other internet bits to do before I leave so will comment on rest of discussion then.

Curu - do you think the list as posted has the tools to take on the field? I think vs both enemy shooters and pushers the secret to this list is its resilience. Yes other armies can shoot me more, but I can tank it. Yes other armies can charge me more, but I can tank it. Meanwhile I return fire or shadow up for combat. I will try this list as soon as our escalation league is over and will probably take a variant of it to our upcoming tournament (I think it should be reasonably quick to play - I think defensive lists might suit my style better than aggro too...so I'll be going from my 'default' of WL:PG to MSU to monster mash to this :mrgreen: .

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:16 pm 
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If I think this list can take to the field? Uncomped - no. It doesn't have enough firepower or resilience. I have played quite a lot with 20 PG - in comped environments - and they just don't last that long. In the Swedish comp meta, I don't know. I'm not familiar with those lists, unfortunately.

If you don't like Lions but want PG in a defensively oriented list, it will be an incredibly hard list to play because you will be lacking so much in terms of sheer damage output. MCs can be handled but there are many powerlords etc out there that simply don't care that much about PG but that fear the eventual power of WL's S6. Your alternative then is to go down a sole-PG block route, suck it up and go with WL instead (I'm not a fan of WL myself but I would probably do this) or take both, at the cost of reducing either magic or shooting. It all depends on the meta though, ETC-lists will vary greatly compared to uncomped lists. It's impossible to create a "win-em-all" kind of list. In an ETC meta, assuming you want to stay true to what I perceive to be the core here (3++ PG, High Magic, shooting), you could go for something like this (inspired by Dennis' list):

L4 Shadow, P.Scroll - 255
L4 High, D.Scroll - 250
BSB - 150

Archers + Reavers or two bunkers of Archers - 600
PG - 450
WL - 450

4 RBTs - 280

Army Total: 2435

PG with Razor, WL with BOTWD. I suppose my question here is how you'll perform against MSU armies - Shadow's traditional weakness. While High covers some bases, it's far from all you need for this to work out. Maybe it can work, I don't know.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:38 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
If I think this list can take to the field? Uncomped - no. It doesn't have enough firepower or resilience. I have played quite a lot with 20 PG - in comped environments - and they just don't last that long. In the Swedish comp meta, I don't know. I'm not familiar with those lists, unfortunately.

If you don't like Lions but want PG in a defensively oriented list, it will be an incredibly hard list to play because you will be lacking so much in terms of sheer damage output. MCs can be handled but there are many powerlords etc out there that simply don't care that much about PG but that fear the eventual power of WL's S6. Your alternative then is to go down a sole-PG block route, suck it up and go with WL instead (I'm not a fan of WL myself but I would probably do this) or take both, at the cost of reducing either magic or shooting. It all depends on the meta though, ETC-lists will vary greatly compared to uncomped lists. It's impossible to create a "win-em-all" kind of list. In an ETC meta, assuming you want to stay true to what I perceive to be the core here (3++ PG, High Magic, shooting), you could go for something like this (inspired by Dennis' list):

L4 Shadow, P.Scroll - 255
L4 High, D.Scroll - 250
BSB - 150

Archers + Reavers or two bunkers of Archers - 600
PG - 450
WL - 450

4 RBTs - 280

Army Total: 2435

PG with Razor, WL with BOTWD. I suppose my question here is how you'll perform against MSU armies - Shadow's traditional weakness. While High covers some bases, it's far from all you need for this to work out. Maybe it can work, I don't know.


Yup, PG don't hit very hard without magic to prop them up and/or some characters with big swords. My issue with our other options is the damn things die so fast the combat res will break them unless they kill what they are fighting quickly. High gives them a cheap ward and life can make them T-7, but the that is the same magic dependence that PG have to do damage.

By throwing out practically all of my shooting and going mobile and vaguely MSU. I have the means to just stomp up the table and chaff up his units while I kill off his harder units with magic and combo charges. I'm not even a particularly good player, but this is winning me all of my games at the moment.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:20 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
If I think this list can take to the field? Uncomped - no. It doesn't have enough firepower or resilience. I have played quite a lot with 20 PG - in comped environments - and they just don't last that long. In the Swedish comp meta, I don't know. I'm not familiar with those lists, unfortunately.

If you don't like Lions but want PG in a defensively oriented list, it will be an incredibly hard list to play because you will be lacking so much in terms of sheer damage output. MCs can be handled but there are many powerlords etc out there that simply don't care that much about PG but that fear the eventual power of WL's S6. Your alternative then is to go down a sole-PG block route, suck it up and go with WL instead (I'm not a fan of WL myself but I would probably do this) or take both, at the cost of reducing either magic or shooting. It all depends on the meta though, ETC-lists will vary greatly compared to uncomped lists. It's impossible to create a "win-em-all" kind of list. In an ETC meta, assuming you want to stay true to what I perceive to be the core here (3++ PG, High Magic, shooting), you could go for something like this (inspired by Dennis' list):

L4 Shadow, P.Scroll - 255
L4 High, D.Scroll - 250
BSB - 150

Archers + Reavers or two bunkers of Archers - 600
PG - 450
WL - 450

4 RBTs - 280

Army Total: 2435

PG with Razor, WL with BOTWD. I suppose my question here is how you'll perform against MSU armies - Shadow's traditional weakness. While High covers some bases, it's far from all you need for this to work out. Maybe it can work, I don't know.


I'll have to try it out and see. I see high magic giving it the resilience (in part combined with the seahelm BSB set up) and shadow giving it the kick, i.e. solving the weaknesses of the army through magic. I know other armies might be more shooty/evade, but I feel (perhaps wrongly) that the PG should be able to tank the shooty while I hit back - after all, 2x soul quench and archers and RBTs and sisters is pretty nasty, c.f. Dennis' round of shooting vs you. I think I will try the dual list and see how it goes (and report back :D ). If I have the time by then, and I hope to, I'll even post proper batreps!

Curiously, your suggested list is basically the same as what I was running in 7th and early 8th but replacing support elements with a Lv4 upgrade and tweaks to the mages' lore/items (I say tweaks because I played about with lore options). But without BoH or forbidden rod dual lord casters feels like its a lot of eggs in a 2D6 winds basket...

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:25 am 
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Ferny wrote:
I always try to post my initial posts in the appropriate forum, but lists and tactics and items and deployment and everything can easily blur together from there.


Not necessarily but I don't think it is the right place to talk about differences. Provided you would be interested in the first place.

Look, it is your choice where you post. I only expressed the wish to be able to read about some tactics that army is going to use. I understand it may require few games to be played first. So I will wait until that happens, that's all.

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