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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:14 pm 
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In February I will be attending my first ever seriously comped tournament and it is using Swedish 1.14.0. End Times FAQ is NOT in effect. All armies need to be rated 7+ and at the end of 6 games your comp score will be added to your tournament points to determine the overall winner. TPs are gained on a 20-0 system (with bonus VP for secret missions, breaking opponents fortitude and tabling) and up to 19 additional TPs for soft scores. Scenarios will be used (Battlelinex3, Meeting Engagement, Dawn Attack).

I've had a good look through the high elf bit and am trying to get my head around it and the implications, but it's hard to understand what I might need in a vacuum of what Swedish does to the foes I might be facing.

Additional tournament rules include:
LoS for Big 5 Spells (Dwellers, Purple Sun, Pit of Shades, Final Trans, Dreaded 13th)
Magical resistance over rules the ‘no saves of any kind’ rule
Max 5 flying units

If anyone could give any indication as to what Swedish and/or this rulepack is likely to mean about the field I'd appreciate the input. Equally I'm interested in what HE lists you'd use in this setting - I have the models for anything and am in principle game for any style.

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Last edited by Ferny on Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:01 pm 
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At only -8 I'm tempted by Alith Anar. He's less comp than a prince and brings a high S super accurate bolt thrower to the table for only one more comp point, as well as Ld10 general...seems legit.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:38 pm 
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Hi Ferny,

Based on my experience with Swedish comp at tournaments I believe people would go for armies as close to 7 as possible. You can actually build quite tough lists with this score. The reason to do so is that the composition is going to be added once at the end of the tournament. In such conditions it may be more beneficial to get tougher army and try to win big as the bonus is not going to be that big.

For example, if you compare army at 7 points with the one at 14 you may think that 7 points extra at the end of the tournament is going to be a great bonus. However, there is a chance that army with 7 comp score is going to get 1-2 points more each game than 14, thus still getting on top. It is easy too calculate how comp is going to affect final standings unless this result is not revealed until the end of the tournament. If it is known then players will also know if they need to push harder or should they play safer at each round.

I expect that special conditions may affect the composition of the armies more. As I said, comp score 7 allows to take quite powerful armies anyway. On the other hand, fortitude points, for instance, can be easily improved by adding banners provided you have enough units to do so.

The scenarios that you mentioned are not the ones that affect composition that much. You don't need an infantry to claim the watchtower for example. Meeting Engagement and Dawn Attack are scenarios where you have to be ready to modify your deployment and adapt to the situation where some of your units may show up in different places than you initially intended. But there is nothing that careful deployment could not take care of.

My advice would be to take the list you are the most comfortable with. Calculate the composition score. If it is below 7 then you obviously need an adjustment. If not, leave it like that for a while and see if you have elements to score additional victory points or if you are well prepared to claim objectives etc. If you do then you may have a look if small tweaks are not going to improve your score further without changing the way the army plays. For example, taking away 1-2 warriors in some units may save you some score points.

Hope that helps.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:50 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
My advice would be to take the list you are the most comfortable with. Calculate the composition score. If it is below 7 then you obviously need an adjustment. If not, leave it like that for a while and see if you have elements to score additional victory points or if you are well prepared to claim objectives etc. If you do then you may have a look if small tweaks are not going to improve your score further without changing the way the army plays. For example, taking away 1-2 warriors in some units may save you some score points.

Hope that helps.



Yup, at Cancon next year they are adding points after each game so being closer to 16 is better. In your case 7 can be very very hard with HE as it won't preclude both the book and/or a big unit with the BotWD. Instant death spells bouncing off the banner is just another reason to run it.

As SM says, build the hardest tournament list you you want to play and then see what needs to be changed to make it legal.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:13 am 
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Isn't it only Magic Resistance per se that saves vs Dwellers etc.?

I agree with the guys. Take your normal uncomped army and tweak it to fit Ferny. MR is very tempting here, though the Look out Sir reduces the impact of Dwellers etc anyway. That said, it looks golden against Skaven and imagine the pain when a Daemon player gets FT off on the World Dragon unit and you save half the wounds!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:20 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Isn't it only Magic Resistance per se that saves vs Dwellers etc.?



Could be. Will depend on the specific wording. Anointed with MR 3 might be a giggle in that case.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:20 am 
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Good advice guys. I was getting all excited looking at comp options here (seriously - how many times do you run Alith Anar, Handmaiden with her gals, 28 archers and...well, I was still looking at how best to support that base), but I think you're right, best to tweak a list. I've just roughly worked out what my 'default' WL/PG list would be and it's around 3ish, but if you drop the book and make a few tweaks it suddenly jumps right up.

Our in-house tourney rule does only apply to MR, so BotWD, whilst still excellent (albeit heavily comped!) would not help vs dwellers etc. Equally, PG with annointed would only get 5++ from MR2 and not 2++ from combining it with their latent ward. I'm assuming SoS does not stack with MR in this context either.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:26 am 
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There is no reason not to take what you like to have. Alith Anar for example can be very handy indeed. What I said is that you should not worry about the comp that much unless your chosen army needs tweaking to make it 7+.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:52 am 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
There is no reason not to take what you like to have. Alith Anar for example can be very handy indeed. What I said is that you should not worry about the comp that much unless your chosen army needs tweaking to make it 7+.


I think the biggest tweaks are no BotWD and no Book (I've been playing the frosty as optional for a while now). No book means you can take a scroll on your primary caster, so it saves points on a Lv2, but most critically no BotWD means I'm scared to take WL or SM en masse, so dual 18xPG looks like the way forwards (like Rabidnid's list in the other thread).

But as a result of no secondary caster and both blocks being smaller I think I can afford bonus toys, which I think might include Alith. Sample list coming up...!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:04 am 
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Lords:
Alith Anar - 250 -8 (4 shots)

Heroes:
Noble BSB, Mywyrm Shield, MR2, Dragon Armour - 155 -14
Handmaiden, PoS, Reaver, Ironcurse - 145 -6 (4 shots)

Core:
28 Archers, FC - 310 -12 (14 shots)
6 Helms (shields), ch+st - 158 -7
6 Helms (shields), ch+st - 158 -7

Special:
18 PG FC Razor - 345 -14
18 PG Flame - 310 -14

Rare:
2xEagles - 100 -10
13xSisters - 182 -8 (13 shots)

Total: 2113 (287 remaining), 35 shots, comp 10 (I think - I might not be working this out quite right)...actually, currently it gets +8 for no magic but I'm ignoring that because I think I'm going to put some in...

I think this list would benefit from magic but I can't work out what would be better, 2xLv2 high mages for the juicy ward saves or 1xloremaster for the utility? Either way I expect the comp score would drop to around 7-8...

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:54 am 
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The 6 SH with shields are 8

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ahmcyypijvs1s ... 1.pdf?dl=0

A lvl 4 shadow might work. Talisman of preservation and scroll is 290 and still leave you around 15.8

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:54 am 
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Hi Ferny,

As I have noticed in the Rabidnid's army list topic, it seems you are dividing your score by 20 where it should be divided by 10. Your current score is 20 without adding wizards, if of course the penalties are added correctly.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 6:49 am 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Hi Ferny,

As I have noticed in the Rabidnid's army list topic, it seems you are dividing your score by 20 where it should be divided by 10. Your current score is 20 without adding wizards, if of course the penalties are added correctly.



Ah good, its not me :)

Ferny, I avoid standards on the SH because they will lose occasionally without it being fatal, but the loss of the standard bearer will suck.

With all your shooting Shadow is probably your best lore option, though lore of beasts is always a giggle and can severely crimp the other player's style when an amber spear nukes one of his monsters. Also remember that savage beasts on your handmaiden will make her St-8 with the reaver bow. On an anointed with the sword of antiheroes versus a unit with two characters he has 8x St-9 attacks. I never got beasts to work for me, but the potential is ridiculous.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:32 am 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Hi Ferny,

As I have noticed in the Rabidnid's army list topic, it seems you are dividing your score by 20 where it should be divided by 10. Your current score is 20 without adding wizards, if of course the penalties are added correctly.


OMG - that makes a huge difference! I bet my default list is round about the 7 mark then. I can't believe I was juggling comp points so carefully and I missed the denominator! OK, from now on - Swedish: Nailed It!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:39 am 
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Rabidnid wrote:


I'm still seeing -7 - what have I missed?

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A lvl 4 shadow might work. Talisman of preservation and scroll is 290 and still leave you around 15.8


Quote:
With all your shooting Shadow is probably your best lore option, though lore of beasts is always a giggle and can severely crimp the other player's style when an amber spear nukes one of his monsters. Also remember that savage beasts on your handmaiden will make her St-8 with the reaver bow. On an anointed with the sword of antiheroes versus a unit with two characters he has 8x St-9 attacks. I never got beasts to work for me, but the potential is ridiculous.


Yeah, now that SM has pointed out my critical calculation flaw :oops: the magical world is my oyster. Shadow has its obvious perks with archers and PG, although I kinda fear it lacks redundancy until combat hits? Beasts would be fun: amber spear, wyssans, savage beast probably being the key three? High (or even high for 2xLv2) would give me 3++ PG and potentially access to unforging and hand which would both be great with this list. Even heavens might work if I kept him back in an archer bunker, though I think I'd prefer something else with this set up. Metal probably isn't terrible either: final trans (even with MR saves), searing doom, enchanted blades and scaly skin...too many choices!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:44 am 
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I'm also tempted, especially seing Rabidnid's list, to include a small-medium unit of shadow warriors as extra chaff/vanguard breakers but also to give me an interesting deployment option for Alith Anar - concievably I could deploy him right in somene's backfield. It's probably not best most of the time but it might be an interesting option to have...

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:13 am 
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Ferny wrote:
I'm still seeing -7 - what have I missed?

Apparently nothing. I'm seeing 7 too now :)
Ferny wrote:
Yeah, now that SM has pointed out my critical calculation flaw :oops: the magical world is my oyster. Shadow has its obvious perks with archers and PG, although I kinda fear it lacks redundancy until combat hits? Beasts would be fun: amber spear, wyssans, savage beast probably being the key three? High (or even high for 2xLv2) would give me 3++ PG and potentially access to unforging and hand which would both be great with this list. Even heavens might work if I kept him back in an archer bunker, though I think I'd prefer something else with this set up. Metal probably isn't terrible either: final trans (even with MR saves), searing doom, enchanted blades and scaly skin...too many choices!


Shadow is all about miasma to slow units and enfeebling foe so your archers are more effective. Okkams will come into play once you are in CC, and for expensively giving your handmaiden St-10 bow shots. Pit is a solution to so many problems either by itself or in combination with miasma.

Beasts is excellent, and even light has some awesome hexes. Heavens I've never had any luck with. Its a great lore, but you will not kill a lot of models with it. Even on a good day comet kills very little compared to a spell like fiery convocation. Metal is an excellent lore with a couple good hexes and buffs, but again its not going to kill much.

With all these options I've still gone with the loremaster of late and don't regret it.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:17 pm 
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1. I've just checked this tournament details and while you can have a comp score >15, you don't get any extra points for it, so essentially I can bring my build down from 20 to 15 without comp cost. This really frees things up on the magic front, seen as that is the only thing I feel this list is missing.

2. I designed (stole) dual 18xPG in the context of BotWD comp, but actually I think it is pretty strong and I'm happy with it. Likewise Alith Anar and the handmaiden (and therefore hence the sisters rather than RBTs). I avoided dragons, pheonix and cavbus for the same reason, but I think they're not missed in this list.

3. In theory it can push against gunlines (I could even switch flame to movement banner), it can grind with the best, it has some chaff/chaff destroyers and with the handmaiden and Alith it has ranged strength. I'm also not really vulnerable to cannons, though it is a fairly slow and probably very defensive list.

4. If I lack anything I think it is a) durability on the characters b) strength in combat and c) long-ranged board control (mid range I think is covered very well). I think these are the gaps I'd need to fill with magic.

Likely options are:
1. Loremaster
2. High Magic (either Lv4 or 2xLv2)
3. Beasts
4. Shadows

Any thoughts? Can this list (supplemented by these lores?) compete against the comp7 lists I'll likely face?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:35 pm 
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I agree with Rabidnid.

Shadow lvl4, Dispel Scroll. I would take MR3 instead of the Ward. Maybe a magic ring.

The list has virtually no combat attacks over S4. Shadow makes it much harder to roll over. Several Lores are considerably nerfed by the house rules, Shadow isn't.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:04 pm 
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Shadow certainly works - in many ways it is the dream list for shadow (Ld10 general, multiple low S ASF Martial Prowess blocks and lots of shooting...though not by any means complete shooting focus). I don't think shadow is a bad choice - in fact, I think it is excellent. And it is a long time since I played shadow and I did love the way it made games so much easier when spells came off - maybe this is a good time to bring it out.

And it themes very nicely: Alith Anar, the Shadow King and a Lv4 ShadowMage. If I can get them painted in time I might take a unit of PG and a unit of Maiden Guard, so I could theme the fluff around a gathering of the three dynasties pre-End Times, with strong Nagarythe and Avelorn representation and a delegation from the Pheonix King.

But the other lores suggested (High, Beasts and Loremaster) aren't nerfed by the house rules either and all would provide more defensive support...it kinda feels rude to be running so many warded characters and units and not take high for example.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:21 pm 
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You might want to look at taking a lvl 2 on metal (or a Loremaster). Other than Alith and the Handmaiden (for one turn) there isn't a lot that could handle high armor save armies or units.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:56 pm 
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IMHO having almost no combat attacks over S4 is a big problem. Daemons will just run it over. Shadow addresses that in a way that the other choices just don't. You also have plenty of S3/4 shooting for which Withering is the best buff. The main armour problem would be the Empire 1+ army but Pit helps with the Stanks. It sounds crude but 6 dice Mindrazor will kill any of it in combat. The Archers have the numbers and the PG the saves to make sure this bites.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:12 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
IMHO having almost no combat attacks over S4 is a big problem. Daemons will just run it over. Shadow addresses that in a way that the other choices just don't. You also have plenty of S3/4 shooting for which Withering is the best buff. The main armour problem would be the Empire 1+ army but Pit helps with the Stanks. It sounds crude but 6 dice Mindrazor will kill any of it in combat. The Archers have the numbers and the PG the saves to make sure this bites.


There are a lot of spells in shadow that need stopping. I found that I rarely got of savage beasts as it was seen as the spell to stop. I've not noticed any particular issue with the S-4. Wissans and the razor banner will give you a unit that chops up heavy armour as well as white lions, and the survivability of the PG counts for a lot.

BotWD on the other PG unit will make it a 12 army list, which is still a long way from 7 and will give the unit some solid protection from demons and things like Vampires with magic swords. I don't actually like Alith Anar much and would go with an anointed and big sword. I'm going to go fiddle with my list now :)

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:21 pm 
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Bubbled Savage Beast can be a killer. But that's best when you have characters who can fight anyway because committing the Handmaiden for example to combat and not getting the spell off could be fatal. That's why the resilience of the infantry makes them a good Mindrazor platform. The Razor PG with Wildform are excellent. But Mindrazor on most things just deletes the enemy.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:01 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Bubbled Savage Beast can be a killer. But that's best when you have characters who can fight anyway because committing the Handmaiden for example to combat and not getting the spell off could be fatal. That's why the resilience of the infantry makes them a good Mindrazor platform. The Razor PG with Wildform are excellent. But Mindrazor on most things just deletes the enemy.


One of the things I'm hoping for in 9th is a toned down shadow lore. Misama, okkams and pit in the same lore is excessive

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:35 am 
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We are also playing swedish comp in my gaminggroup. It seems to us that The strongest builds with a High comp score are the bus/death-star list. i would go for that. Even more if MR protects agains The Big spells


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:40 pm 
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Could you give an example? I veered away from busses because helms, mounted characters, big units and banner got comped, though I guess banner could be replaced with MR3 or a foot bus could be achieved cheapish on comp?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:45 pm 
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The MR would help a lot vs Dwellers which the bus fears.

Get a High Mage in and the save gets very good vs snipes, Searing Doom etc..

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:15 pm 
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This is just an example:
Swedish Comp High Elves – 2400 pts, COMP: 17

410 pts Tyrion
Comp: -25

160 pts Mage, lvl 2, High Magic, Dispel Scroll, Elven Steed, Barded,
Comp: -15

175 pts Mage, lvl 2, High Magic, Barded Elven Steed, Ruby Ring of Ruin, Sceptre of
Stability
Comp: -10

160 pts Noble, BSB, Barded Elven Steed, Star Lance, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Enchanted
Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness
Comp: -18
905 pts

237 pts 9 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command,
Comp: -10

273 pts 23 Archers, Musician, Champion, Light armour
Comp: -9

95 pts 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
Comp: -4
Core: 605 pts

120 pts Lion Chariot
Comp: -3

225 pts Flamespyre phoenix
-14

183 pts 13 Sisters of Avalorn
Comp: -8

357 pts 8 Dragon Princes, Full Command, Rampagers Standard, Ogre Blade,
Comp: -14
2397 pts
Comp: 17

We play with the rule that the comp score needs to be 17 or higher and with simple Line of sight.
We are also not using End Times. This was created fast, and can be customized to your own preferences. High magic with MR in a unit of Dragon Princes should give you a good save against most harmful things. A "cheap" mans BotWD :)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:25 am 
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Palinux wrote:
This is just an example:
Swedish Comp High Elves – 2400 pts, COMP: 17

410 pts Tyrion
Comp: -25

160 pts Mage, lvl 2, High Magic, Dispel Scroll, Elven Steed, Barded,
Comp: -15

175 pts Mage, lvl 2, High Magic, Barded Elven Steed, Ruby Ring of Ruin, Sceptre of
Stability
Comp: -10

160 pts Noble, BSB, Barded Elven Steed, Star Lance, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Enchanted
Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness
Comp: -18
905 pts

237 pts 9 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command,
Comp: -10

273 pts 23 Archers, Musician, Champion, Light armour
Comp: -9

95 pts 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows
Comp: -4
Core: 605 pts

120 pts Lion Chariot
Comp: -3

225 pts Flamespyre phoenix
-14

183 pts 13 Sisters of Avalorn
Comp: -8

357 pts 8 Dragon Princes, Full Command, Rampagers Standard, Ogre Blade,
Comp: -14
2397 pts
Comp: 17

We play with the rule that the comp score needs to be 17 or higher and with simple Line of sight.
We are also not using End Times. This was created fast, and can be customized to your own preferences. High magic with MR in a unit of Dragon Princes should give you a good save against most harmful things. A "cheap" mans BotWD :)


Thanks - interesting list. I see some 'weak' choices in there, but also lots of strength, and if your meta is 17+ then it certainly looks like it has lots of tools. Tbh I don't think Swedish looks too hard - so long as you avoid bird, book, banner...or take one/some and acknowledge that you'll have to cut elsewhere it doesn't seem to painful. Also PG feel 'undercomped' compared to the rest to me...based on literally no games with Swedish :lol:

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