Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:44 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:57 pm
Posts: 330
Not sure if this belongs here or another spot but I was feeling a little frustrated at the new 50% characters rules. I have finally found a list and style of play that I love and now am looking at the new rules and thinking there is no way the MSU list can survive a double dragon or double DP list or any of the other nasty combos now available. One dragon or one DP was doable but two? So am I off base or is the MSU list obsolete?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:27 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
The builds already available under the old, 25% allocations would devastate MSU equally much. 1 Star Dragon and a Frostheart with RBT backup and a bus is equally devastating to 2 Star Dragons, a Frostheart and a weaker bus with no RBT support.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:32 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12238
Location: Otherworld
What's your current list Delaqure?

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:53 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
Hi Delaqure,

Not all the armies are going to use 75% characters and 25% core. There will be some and yes, they are tough but even then there is always something you can do. And first thing is to avoid the conclusion that you auto lose.

It remains to be seen how other forces are going to change but as I said not all of them will benefit from 50% lords/heroes allowance in the same way (if at all).

It is also remain to be seen if these double dragons lists, for example, are going to be everywhere. Where are you going to get the points for second star dragon, for instance, if you are already tight in other departments?

As everybody else, MSU has to adapt to new situation. It may involve some army list changes again. Who knows, you may choose to add a few characters to your army too.

I think we should wait and see what kind of threats we are going to deal with and come up with new ideas how to tackle them. Also because GW is not done with changes to warhammer yet.

Cheers!

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:25 am
Posts: 964
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Hi Delaqure,

Not all the armies are going to use 75% characters and 25% core. There will be some and yes, they are tough but even then there is always something you can do. And first thing is to avoid the conclusion that you auto lose.

It remains to be seen how other forces are going to change but as I said not all of them will benefit from 50% lords/heroes allowance in the same way (if at all).

It is also remain to be seen if these double dragons lists, for example, are going to be everywhere. Where are you going to get the points for second star dragon, for instance, if you are already tight in other departments?

As everybody else, MSU has to adapt to new situation. It may involve some army list changes again. Who knows, you may choose to add a few characters to your army too.

I think we should wait and see what kind of threats we are going to deal with and come up with new ideas how to tackle them. Also because GW is not done with changes to warhammer yet.

Cheers!


Exactly. 2 lvl 1 lore of undeath mages can both throw 25 man units of zombies every turn. The new WHFB paradigm might well be sticky and smelly MSU :)

_________________
"Luck is the residue of design"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:57 pm
Posts: 330
I don't have the new book yet so i'm not familiar with the new magic rules at all. So do we get to use undead magic now or just a couple of spells?
@Curu- While you are correct about the double dragon or dragon and frosty with the old lists your riders were very bare. Also you couldn't field two tooled up DPs and such. You were limited and that's that. Now you are more likely to see more nastiness making it even harder for those small units to stand up.

@Swordmaster - Well I might have to grab another character if I am facing more nasty Lords. I'll need to counter them somehow.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:43 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
Hi Delaqure,

From now on every wizard can generate his spells from Lore of Undeath so it is possible to have level 1 as Rabinid suggests to try and cast some of these spells. With the signature spell you can potentially summon units from Undead Legion worth 50/100/150 points depending on the casting level.

In terms of characters I haven't tried many yet so I don't know what would you need to do to pose a threat to other nasty lords/heroes. Just one of the options if you want to go that route.

Cheers!

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:25 am
Posts: 964
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Hi Delaqure,

From now on every wizard can generate his spells from Lore of Undeath so it is possible to have level 1 as Rabinid suggests to try and cast some of these spells. With the signature spell you can potentially summon units from Undead Legion worth 50/100/150 points depending on the casting level.

In terms of characters I haven't tried many yet so I don't know what would you need to do to pose a threat to other nasty lords/heroes. Just one of the options if you want to go that route.

Cheers!



The Mortachs will take something like 2 deamon princes to kill unless you can shoot them dead. As combat characters they are very solid

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer/Tacti ... ad_Legions

I'm actually looking at a lvl 1 caster for lore of undeath as a less comped solution than multiple shadow mages.

_________________
"Luck is the residue of design"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:46 pm
Posts: 446
I'm going a bit off topic here, but having played with Arkhan I thought I ought to answer Rabidnid...

True about Mannfred and Neferata, but Arkhan is definitely not a combat character. 7 attacks + Thunderstomp seems good, but WS4 and S5 seriously limit the damage he can deal. Plus no armor to speak of and no ward means he can go down very fast in combat against dedicated units.
His best usage in combat is against rather weak units, where he can use his sword to gain wounds back.

But since he flies and can always march, plus his abilities to summon a lot, he's not that easy to catch in combat... Pepper him with shots or magic missiles instead if you can, don't offer him a weak unit to fight so he can't heal, and your UL opponent will start sweating for him.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:23 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6854
Location: The city of Spires
I think HE MSU lists (at least their current versions) will struggle to earn enough points to offset losses to be truly effective lists.

If you are facing a more extreme list, with close to 75% characters (or rare monsters), where will a MSU list get points. The characters are too tough for small units. Something like a dragon can pick its fights and just barrel through units in one or 2 rounds of combat. Which leaves only 25% core points available to get points from.

Chance are you'll lose more then 25% to the characters and monsters. So while it's not an auto-lose, it will be tough.

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:41 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
I heard the same many times when I started playing with MSU. You can't do this, you can't do that. Somehow it was not that bad. It will be harder for sure. But it was never easy. Saying "you can't do it" does not help for sure.

I will wait and see what kind of armies people are going to bring to the table first.

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:26 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6854
Location: The city of Spires
Of course, the type of armies people field will determine a big part of how to counter them.

My point wasn't that there is absolutely no way you can win with a MSU list. But that for a MSU list in an all-commers environment you need to be able to deal with character heavy armies. Especially in places that allow special characters Nagash, the Mortargs and Karl Franz reborn will be a reality. And if you can't deal with them then there aren't enough points elsewhere on the table to score a win.

KF is a good example. He can easily take out a MSU regiment by himself each turn, can't reliably be redirected (flying) and is very tough to deal with, even for tailored lists let alone MSU all comers. Back him up by a few more characters and that's half an army worth of points you will have trouble getting. You need to compensate for that and find the points elsewhere. But with only 1250 pts left and losing a unit per turn starting T2, that's hard going.

A more normal list perhaps is a star dragon, cav prince + SH bus backed up by a frostheart. It might not be the most effective in the overall scheme of things (though I think it will be a strong list). But again, very hard to take points from and very good at winning points itself.

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:45 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12238
Location: Otherworld
Without knowing what MSU list it's hard to give a clear assessment of whether it's dead or not.

Is it like Swordmaster's lists? Shooty avoidance? Eagle character spam?

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:02 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
Let's take Karl Franz as an example. Interestingly, his special rules do not benefit him that greatly against MSU. He is as dangerous as other characters on big fliers. They all can kill 10 strong elven infantry units in a turn. But he is more expensive than greater daemons, lords on dragons etc. He will not be alone but add level 4 and BSB to the army and you start running out of points for troops. You will need these troops for wizard protection and simply to inflict damage as KF cannot be everywhere at the same time.

Taking such expensive character means Empire player will try to use him as aggressively as possible to earn the points back. He may be in combat T2. But every delay means he is not killing things quickly enough. It may be good idea then to get more champions to ensure he will be a little bit more busy.

I am not saying it will be easy, it will be harder than against greater daemons and such because KF is simply better. But I would like to see the army this character leads first to find out how Empire player is going to make up for the smaller amount of troops he is going to take. The troops that so far had served him very well.

What is more KF is far better against Star Dragons, big cavalry buses etc. He has much fewer targets to worry about and these targets he can easily tackle all by himself. As there are way fewer targets his smaller army will also have an easier job to choose priorities.

Star Dragon + cavalry prince + SH bus + frosty is of course a tough opponent. But again, it does not add more dangers than it used to earlier. It already was tight on points for the units. Where are you going to get these 250-270 points for cavalry prince from? Bolt throwers? This army cannot take from core because it already has minimum allowance, it does not have special choices, all it has is in rare. Frosty then? Either way you are taking away something that already posed a threat and adding the Prince to the bus actually helps to keep him away from combats.

I think multiple characters such as Scar Veterans might be bigger challenge for the MSU armies since they can reliably charge alone and grind units in combat. Fortunately, they can also be hurt a little easier and they don't fly. Although I expect arabian carpet to be used more often now for a non-general character.

I don't know what direction I should take in order to adapt yet. Maybe it will be good to add that mounted hero with star lance. Maybe additional mage with searing doom will be helpful. I don't know. But saying that MSU is going to have a tough game against characters is nothing new really.

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:31 am 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
What about Life magic and unit.champions? I once kept a bloodthirster fighting 14 swordmasters for something like 4 turns because I kept regrowing the champion. Problem then is just getting the points off your enemy, as Rod says. Going magic and shooting heavy would seem like a good place to start, but I don't suppose there's anything morally wrong with taking a monster of your own plus MSU support?

For me the problem with our MSU infantry, at least (as someone who used to use 10 white lions), is:

a) they lost ASF, so they don't hit as hard and die to In5+ troops;

b) they don't benefit from Martial Prowess, which we pay good points for; and

c) Shield of Saphery only affects one unit, so an MSU setup would leave lots of T3 models unprotected.

As SA says there are lots of ways to do MSU, though. Infantry/mixed/avoidance MSU are all different beasts.

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:30 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Champions vs Karl Franz et. al is a terrible idea for small units. What it results in is the following:

Character charges => challenge => dead. Hold on steadfast. Next round, aka end of you turn, said character brings you below steadfast. You break, he reforms before he charges. This is huge, and a terrible proposition to face.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:11 pm
Posts: 1018
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains
Can't wait to see a unit of night goblins with 10 level 1 Lore of Undead casters.... well I guess if you wanted to max out you could put 25 of them on the table.

_________________
my MSU army list/battle reports

Nyeave wrote:
Omg it's a parrot chariot - a parriot... :D


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:32 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Curu Olannon wrote:
Champions vs Karl Franz et. al is a terrible idea for small units. What it results in is the following:

Character charges => challenge => dead. Hold on steadfast. Next round, aka end of you turn, said character brings you below steadfast. You break, he reforms before he charges. This is huge, and a terrible proposition to face.

Well you need to get regrowth off, obviously.

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:19 pm
Posts: 378
Curu Olannon wrote:
Champions vs Karl Franz et. al is a terrible idea for small units. What it results in is the following:

Character charges => challenge => dead. Hold on steadfast. Next round, aka end of you turn, said character brings you below steadfast. You break, he reforms before he charges. This is huge, and a terrible proposition to face.

Curu, as you know this is why it's important to change the sequence to be:

Chaff charges Character (this has the added benefit of avoiding a Terror test when your unit gets charged) => Challenge, roll fear test as required => Dead Champion => Hold on Steadfast => Character breaks steadfast on opponent's turn and reforms. Select next Chaff Wing Formation and repeat the entire process on your turn.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:58 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Grenic - while true in principle, catching strong players offguard with such moves is nigh on impossible with a flyer. Of course, the sheer possibility of it forcing said flyer to beware of certain places to land helps control the board. Re: Regrowth - it's a long shot.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:00 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
Seredain wrote:
For me the problem with our MSU infantry, at least (as someone who used to use 10 white lions), is:

a) they lost ASF, so they don't hit as hard and die to In5+ troops;

b) they don't benefit from Martial Prowess, which we pay good points for; and

c) Shield of Saphery only affects one unit, so an MSU setup would leave lots of T3 models unprotected.


Hello Cavalry Prince,

This is where a little bit of magic can help.

a) No re-rolls and there are I5 troops who can hurt? There are a few spells out there that can affect WS, I or allow for re-rolls of 1's and 6's respectively. Choose the lore you like the most as not one can help you in that department. Or take Loremaster!

b) They might not benefit as much but they still do! You can form Lions 3 wide and lose nothing of their potential but have 9A on smaller frontage. You can form cavalry 2 wide for mini-lances to do likewise. As always, formation should depend on the enemy, terrain etc. but the option is there.

c) If you take High Magic for MSU army then it might be good idea to invest in a small PG bunker to take advantage of that. Or maybe Light Lore is the way to go for bubble effect? Or maybe due to the fact that the units are small certain spells might be too risky to cast and would not benefit the opponent as much as against big regiments?

Don't get me wrong, I do miss re-rolls for elite infantry and the fact they used to strike first. But they are still good and can be used efficiently.

Cheers!

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:23 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 6854
Location: The city of Spires
Curu Olannon wrote:
Grenic - while true in principle, catching strong players offguard with such moves is nigh on impossible with a flyer. Of course, the sheer possibility of it forcing said flyer to beware of certain places to land helps control the board. Re: Regrowth - it's a long shot.

At least it's less impossible then forcing a flyer to charge a unit it doens't want to. You have a bigger chance of getting that charge off then getting KF to charge into a combat he might actually lose.

Also, with reavers, their average charge range is 18'', which is actually only 1'' shorter then KF's range. And, it is also longer then KF can actually move, so he can't just fly over then and get away from them. That is a lot board where KF can't land, especially if you bring 3 or 4 units of reavers.

Yes, it will take some careful placement. But with the points investment in KF, he has to do something in terms of combat to be worth it. He can't be chased around by 4 units of reavers costing half his points all game long. So, chances are, he will be comited at some point. Yes, against a good/better player it's tough, but there is a skill level involved there. Which means it's something you can influence.

Rod

_________________
Eirik wrote:
Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:12 pm
Posts: 656
with MSU you have to create a situation where charging might end not so good even for characters like karl franz, like feeding him with reavers, eating damage with champions, holding on steadfast and then counter charge on your turn thus potentially surrounding him with enough bodies to get in some wounds. some shooting and magic in the first two turns could score a wound early and single target debuffs in combat will also help alot.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:02 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12238
Location: Otherworld
The Reaver unit would need to be at least six strong to preserve Steadfast and not take casualties on the way in. Maybe if you had three or so?

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:30 pm
Posts: 151
I think magic is the most reliable way of dealing with supermen. I should think either a shadow mage/lore master combo or maybe a death mage/metal mage combo. Not sure.

You need enough pressure to force the engagement and then enough power to make combat unsafe for mr. teflon. The idea with the shadow mage is that you have miasma/mindrazor/pit/enfeeblement, the metal mage takes away armor and makes BTs more reliable, and the death mage gives you some offensive power, coupled with D'n'D and soulblight.

Of course magic cannot be relied upon and you're going to have to outplay your opponent unless comp takes away some of the sillier things that they can do. That may be where SM's ideas of nobles has the advantage.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:25 am
Posts: 251
I think that MSU is still very, very present these days in warhammer. With the continuous nerfing of the deathstar, and the ever present combat blocks and monsters I think that you need some MSU as a High Elf player to compete.

Let me explain what I mean before you draw any conclusions.

I think that, as a HE player you will probably have one "main" combat unit you plan to basically win the game with in combat. You may have an anvil as well, but you're hammer (e.g 25 WL's with BotWD, 20 SH with 4 characters, 35 PG with death and razor standard) is what will win you the game. I think that as a HE player you need to do everything possible to make sure that your hammer unit gets where it wants to get, fight who it wants to fight and does not get bogged down by enemy redirectors. I also think that as a HE player having some extra damage coming into your main combats from the side to score extra points is pretty important.

When I make my list, the only units that can accomplish all of the above are small units. I know that obviously reavers are amazing, but I have played with units of 10 PH, and 7/12 SM's or even 12 SG to try and do all of these things. I'm not saying that those unit choices will win you games are are even that powerful. But I will say that they are good enough to be considered when you make a list. 8th edition, in my mind is a movement phase/deployment game and MSU makes you ever more powerful in both of those phases of the game.

_________________
i hate people who blame losses on dice, when they lost to me.

God created man, then he came up with a better idea


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:57 pm
Posts: 330
Ok, after a brief hiatus I am back on this topic. Some of you have asked about my list in trying to ascertain whether or not my MSU army is dead.

I have been thinking a bit about this and considered Teclis and Alarielle together, but settled on something less for now. Due to the 50% characters army lists I decided that my current list which just has a Archmage and BSB as characters just wouldn't have a chance to stand up to that at present. So I have altered it with the following:

Alarielle
Loremaster-Book of Hoeth, Golden Crown
Noble-BSB Dragon Armor/Halberd, Reaver Bow, Potion of Strength, Stone of Luck


18 Archers- full command
18 Archers-full command
5 Reavers- musician, bows
5 Reavers- musician, bows

19 Swordmasters- full command, Banner of World Dragon
10 White Lions
10 White Lions

3 Bolt Throwers
2 Great Eagles-Sharp Talons
5 Sisters
5 Sisters

2500 pts

The idea here is to use Alarielle and the Banner to keep the swordmasters alive. When I had the Archmage he did a pretty good job of that with the High magic. But with the adding of the Loremaster I decided Alarielle with her 5+ ward would save me from having to be so focused on casting high magic spells that the Loremaster wouldn't cast much. She will take high magic to bolster the ward and the Loremaster will be used to do what he does best in tailoring his spell casting to what I am facing. You may ask why the swordmasters? I found them to be very resilient and deadly with a total of 16 attacks from the front and then 14 more from the rear ranks. Even Franz should be concerned about this unit with the ward saves it gets. I wouldn't think he'd be killing a lot with his magic weapon facing 2+ wards. Not that I'd face Franz very often.

Of course we know what all the shooting is for. The eagles and Reavers are used to keep the enemy at bay will whittle him down with shooting etc until I am ready to engage with the SM and the Lions. I have no idea how this will play out. Maybe you can help me figure that out.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:50 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12238
Location: Otherworld
So compared to the lists Swordmaster was running for example, this has more magic and shooting at the cost of the Dragon Princes it seems.

I guess the danger is if an enemy can out-shoot it.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:57 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
I believe shooty-heavy MSU is worth exploring. It allows us to put up a fight at a distance against some enemies, while (hopefully) dodging others.

The main problems I see with this approach are two-fold:
1. Being outgunned. If you cannot contain your losses, this is one of the worst things that can happen in Warhammer. I´m not sure many armies possess the ability to actually outshoot us, but this must be playtested.
2. Being rushed. With Shadow and champions all over the place there´s always a threat, but perhaps it´s too flimsy, single-target focused and unreliable to work in action? How do you deal with Daemons? Elf busses? Multiple WoC chariots?

Some degree of counter-charge is needed to counter-act this. Maybe a Star Dragon or even Flamespyre Anointed can fill such a niche: They´re a lot more reliable than our special choices and their mobility is second to none of the options in our book.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Is MSU dead?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:57 pm
Posts: 330
Curu Olannon wrote:
I believe shooty-heavy MSU is worth exploring. It allows us to put up a fight at a distance against some enemies, while (hopefully) dodging others.

The main problems I see with this approach are two-fold:
1. Being outgunned. If you cannot contain your losses, this is one of the worst things that can happen in Warhammer. I´m not sure many armies possess the ability to actually outshoot us, but this must be playtested.
2. Being rushed. With Shadow and champions all over the place there´s always a threat, but perhaps it´s too flimsy, single-target focused and unreliable to work in action? How do you deal with Daemons? Elf busses? Multiple WoC chariots?

Some degree of counter-charge is needed to counter-act this. Maybe a Star Dragon or even Flamespyre Anointed can fill such a niche: They´re a lot more reliable than our special choices and their mobility is second to none of the options in our book.


In taking in consideration of your thoughts on the matter and taking a look at my list, the only thing I can reliably consider removing would be the two white lion unit. They only add up to 260 points, which only allows me to take either a flamespyre or a frostheart, both without riders. Now, I could drop the Loremaster and throw a rider on top, but then that limits my magic output. What are your thoughts on that?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group