How do we deal with Karl Franz?

[Curu Olannon]

Seredain: Challenge trick is invalid. If he charges, he challenges first and you accept. If you'd rather push to the back rank, cool. However, if he doesn't want to challenge (say, he wants to fight a mage) he can combat reform to provide you with his flank instead, thus reaching more models.

[Tethlis]

I've been running a Level 4 with High and a Loremaster because I wanted to have options for any possible matchup. The new rules for Karl reassure me that I made a good choice. A single Unforging seriously hamstrings him offensively or defensively, and opens up possibilities for taking him down. Add in the slight focus on defensive ward saves I have been using and I feel like I can buy myself enough turns to get that spell off. I feel good about countering him without having to change my list at all.

[Dragon fire]

My best bet would be lvl 4 beast combined with a lvl 4 high. Beast for amber spear/savage beast /transformation. High for shield/ arcane/ wbw.
Amber spear is your canon if the mr or ward goes down. Transformation to a chimera combined with a OTS guy is deadly, savage beast on a noble or prince is good as well.
Wbw lets you stay out of charges with important units and arcane is the best spell for you.
Overall i think high and beast are good supplements to eachother, the downside is the expensive magic phase.

[Seredain]

Seredain: Challenge trick is invalid. If he charges, he challenges first and you accept. If you'd rather push to the back rank, cool. However, if he doesn't want to challenge (say, he wants to fight a mage) he can combat reform to provide you with his flank instead, thus reaching more models.

Good point. I guess you'd have to hope he wants to stomp your unit to death more than he wants to kill a champion in the first round.

Otherwise it's back to arcane unforging, shooting, magic missiles and ASF magic weapons, I guess. Still, that's so much better than nothing eh?! Think of all those armies.who can't get rid of items at all. Though I guess having cannons helps.

[Grenic]

To give you an idea, consider the following:

Karl Franz - 810
Grandmaster, Runefang, Charmed Shield, Luckstone, Potion of Speed, Dragonbane Gem - 255
Captain, BSB, FPA, Barded Warhorse, Dawnstone, Great Weapon, TOTS, Dragonhelm ~160
L2 Life, scroll, warhorse ~140

14 Inner circle knights, FCG, standard of +1M: 395
5 Empire knights: 110
5 Empire knights: 110

3 Great Cannons - 360

~2325

Counter to that list… how about something along the lines of:

Lords (30.6%):
- Teclis
- Archemage, 3rd Level, Folding Fortress (Lore of Light)
Heroes (16.2%):
- Mage, 1st Level, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon (Lore of Light)
- Mage, 1st Level, Forbidden Rod (Lore of Light)
- Noble, BSB, HA, LP, Golden Crown, Shield of the Merwyrm, Reaver Bow
Core (25.0%):
- 27 Archers, Full Command
- 27 Archers, Full Command
Special (28.1%):
- 35 x White Lions, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon
- 5 x Shadow Warriors
- 5 x Shadow Warriors
Rare (0.%):
- None

This list would just hide out in the Folding Fortress for game. It has 4 drops, including characters, so it should get the +1.

The best would be if you end up with a building in your deployment zone before dropping the fortress!

Generally speaking, look to smash the Inner Circle Knight bus with magic and feed Karl 10 White Lions for several turns, once he gets there.

The Archers would be dual 3x9 formations.

The Shadow Warriors are flex units, place them to threaten cannons or hide behind the fortress to redirect whatever gets to the fortress too early.

Overall, likely a fairly boring game...

[Ferny]

Doom and Darkness+Static Res+BotWD? Hope for a failed (re-rollable?) 7.

No love for this? Seems at least as solid as anything else I've seen?

Edit...just realised he'll be cold blooded...but still...?

[Curu Olannon]

We are certainly not the worst ones off vs him. I think the main problem here is speed combined with backup. Arcane is indeed a useful spell, the question is whether it'll be enough. Maybe, maybe not. I suppose playtesting is needed. The folding fortress idea is brilliant, actually. Its main weakness is cannons, D6 hits could quickly reduce the Lions. SWs help here. This army is in fact exceptionally strong, showing yet again why FF is something you want to have banned out.

LD7 through D&D is a longshot (roughly 20% chance to fail, given a re-roll). It can, combined with Purple Sun, give enough opportunities for him to actually struggle (basically he will fail eventually).

[SpellArcher]

The Shadow Warriors vs Cannons thing.

Is this because the Empire army is smaller than usual and will presumably have to attack, leaving the artillery more exposed than normal?

[Curu Olannon]

The Empire in general struggle to properly protect their WMs. They can, of course, dedicate the 5 Knights to this task. Shadow Warriors to scout however and will thus usually be able to at least get some decent shots off at the machines, slowly whittling them down. It depends largely on the Empire player and specific list whether they'll be able to actually make a difference here or not.

[pk-ng]

To give you an idea, consider the following:

Karl Franz - 810
Grandmaster, Runefang, Charmed Shield, Luckstone, Potion of Speed, Dragonbane Gem - 255
Captain, BSB, FPA, Barded Warhorse, Dawnstone, Great Weapon, TOTS, Dragonhelm ~160
L2 Life, scroll, warhorse ~140

14 Inner circle knights, FCG, standard of +1M: 395
5 Empire knights: 110
5 Empire knights: 110

3 Great Cannons - 360

~2325

Counter to that list… how about something along the lines of:

Lords (30.6%):
- Teclis
- Archemage, 3rd Level, Folding Fortress (Lore of Light)
Heroes (16.2%):
- Mage, 1st Level, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon (Lore of Light)
- Mage, 1st Level, Forbidden Rod (Lore of Light)
- Noble, BSB, HA, LP, Golden Crown, Shield of the Merwyrm, Reaver Bow
Core (25.0%):
- 27 Archers, Full Command
- 27 Archers, Full Command
Special (28.1%):
- 35 x White Lions, Full Command, Banner of the World Dragon
- 5 x Shadow Warriors
- 5 x Shadow Warriors
Rare (0.%):
- None

This list would just hide out in the Folding Fortress for game. It has 4 drops, including characters, so it should get the +1.

The best would be if you end up with a building in your deployment zone before dropping the fortress!

Generally speaking, look to smash the Inner Circle Knight bus with magic and feed Karl 10 White Lions for several turns, once he gets there.

The Archers would be dual 3x9 formations.

The Shadow Warriors are flex units, place them to threaten cannons or hide behind the fortress to redirect whatever gets to the fortress too early.

Overall, likely a fairly boring game...

Good theory hammer but alot of tournaments (or even house rules) ban Folding Fortress on the account of how broken the building rules are!

[Boothy]

Having a couple of units in the army that can hold him and wear him down slowly seems like a good idea (and easily done for high elves), phoenix guard (maybe with a razor standard) and lions or princes with the banner of the world dragon would all be a good start (as has already been discussed these units don’t take much damage from him).

Catching him isn’t going to be easy. I’m planning on adding a champion to all my fast units to allow them to pin him for one turn with a charge and steadfast…..so a speedy bsb is probably a good idea. Then, if we have a couple of these units that can actually hold/threaten him we can cover a fair bit of table space with a pin, a swift reform, and then a charge…….really he is no harder to catch than a daemon prince (I’d argue easier due to a larger base and the fact he isn’t throwing acquiescence and choir all over the place!), just harder to kill.

Shadow gets my vote of lore. I would be uneasy relying on a single spell (say arcane unforging) having to be cast to stand a chance. With shadow we would have:
- Mindrazor (self explanatory)
- Withering (pump up the wounds caused by lions or guard)
- Miasma (an average roll gets him hitting our elites on 4+ and gives us back our re-rolls to hit)
- Pit (do they really want to risk a 1/6 of giving up 900 points……also handy against tanks and cannons once he is engaged)
- Pendulum (it’s not completely terrible against cannons……it’s something to throw spare dice at in a big phase)

Alternatively msu might do well against him. The msu list probably won’t have anything that can kill Mr Franz, but he would really struggle to get his points back.

There is also the game wide attrition to consider……its not that hard to deal 20 wounds to a T5 3+ armour unit. Sure he might kill a decent unit (hopefully not two), but after a few bolt thrower shots and some decent combat attacks his pool of wounds will dwindle.

And finally, if he can be contained ever for just a few turns we try and blitz the rest of the army. I have played Nagash a couple of times and in both cases wiped out everything besides the big man himself by turn 4. Franz is a different problem since he can’t be redirected, but he doesn’t summon huge units either…….not sure which would be a bigger problem.

[sandstorm]

Unfortunately all good Empire players will probably end up taking a level 4 life wizard alongside Karl. Between flesh, regrowth and lifebloom grinding him down would be impossible.

[Boothy]

Agreed! If there was a life wizard hanging out within life bloom range it would have to go before any attempt at grinding him down could be made.

At that point though we are looking at over 1000 points in characters and the army is going to start looking like an undead army lead by Nagash. At least Nagash can raise stuff everywhere while killing everything he comes into contact with.

[Sackree]

Agreed! If there was a life wizard hanging out within life bloom range it would have to go before any attempt at grinding him down could be made.

At that point though we are looking at over 1000 points in characters and the army is going to start looking like an undead army lead by Nagash. At least Nagash can raise stuff everywhere while killing everything he comes into contact with.

This, Karl and a lvl 4 + BSB is the minimum characters. So we are now at 50% of the points tied up here. Then 25% core is going to have to be ICK to keep up with Karl. So we aren't left with much points now, they then will need cannons to shoot other warmachines targeting Karl. Add an extra unit to flavour if possible and that is the army.

So it's a very low drop count army, with low board control. Karl himself can is a threat, but they have a bus containing all their other characters which should be easy pickings and a back field that isn't protected allowing a couple units of reavers or eagles to mop up its points by turn 2/3.

[Grenic]

Good theory hammer but alot of tournaments (or even house rules) ban Folding Fortress on the account of how broken the building rules are!

While the Folding Fortress may be banned today, with the introduction of these new model options, that attitude will have to be re-examined.

Many tourneys also ban special characters too, so worrying about Karl Franz Assendant is also a bit of theory hammer...

How to address him without using a Folding Fortres?

Treat him like any other high point drain unit you can't easily counter, chaff him up with champion lead 6 model units of Reavers, Helms, Shadow Warriors, and possibly Dragon Princes. Then focus on taking off the other 1200+ points your opponent has on the board.

[CaledorRises]

Okay, here is my theory on how to beat him, and what I have been coming up with. Bear with me on this, okay?

First, take Teclis with High Magic. The list that you proposed to be a problem had the enemy wizard at level 2. Teclis casting High Magic is a +6, you will get every spell you want off, other than the one that is scrolled, and then you will shut down every spell he casts with a +5 to dispel. Then put Teclis in a brick of Swordmasters. Arcane Unforge Karl into the ground rapidly, taking out both of his special toys. Maintain that 3+ Ward on the Swordmasters, and nothing can touch them. Get them into combat on your terms with Karl by using Walk Between Worlds, and then buff up the SM to WS 8 and I 7 so that they strike at the same time as Karl and at a 3+ to hit. Due to the high volume of attacks and the fact that you destroyed his ward save trinket (you did, right?), they should be able to kill him very rapidly, despite his high wounds. The 3+ Ward will protect you from pretty much anything that he throws at you. If he directs every attack against Teclis, he will probably kill him, but he has to do every attack for that to work, so your Swordmasters will get off clean. You even have some extra points, so you could easily get a Lore of Life wizard out and boost the toughness of your guys, and Teclis, so that Karl cannot hurt them, or a Shadow wizard so that his strength is lowered. Either would work, and you should easily get magical dominance. After that, you have a few hundred points more to deal with his army than he has to deal with yours. Also, if this works, most of your Swordmaster brick will be alive, allowing them to continue to cause problems.

If Karl runs away from whatever unit you have deployed to kill him, because as some people have said, not sure if here, but I've heard them, he can fly, so you cannot easily catch him, but if he's running, that's 810 almost purely combat oriented points that the enemy isn't using, and your counter, if it has a wizard in it, is casting left and right so is still doing stuff.

If he tries to use Lore of Life to heal Karl, he's got to stay within 12", and that makes him so much easier to catch, so I don't think it's much of a problem. Just deal at least 3 wounds per turn and that Level 2 won't be able to save him.

Also if you arcane unforge his hammer and ward save, any properly kitted out Prince should be able to kill him no problem. 10 attacks is great and all, but at WS 7 and I 7, he's WS 7 right?, he shouldn't be able to kill a Prince with a 4+ ward in one round, and then you just Apotheosis or Life Magic him back up.

[Scarlet]

In an actual battle I would suggest:
Noble: Elven Steed, Crown of Command
Xx Ellyrian Reavers: Champion in one unit
4x Great Eagles
Essentially run the noble with a unit of Ellyrian and charge directly at Karl Franz. Fast enough they should be able to get to him. Challenge with Champion, use stubborn crown to hold. This should mean that unit lasts until your next phase where you have 4 Great Eagles and as many other units of Ellyrian Reavers to get into the perfect position to redirect. You would probably need a few units of Ellyrian Reavers as Empire has a decent amount of ranged units to remove chaff. You would want to make sure you have decent magic to counter spells. This should at a stretch (With a lot of Ellyrian Reavers) reach 500pts + Mage which you would probably have anyway. While it is a ridiculous amount of chaff, chaff generally always find a use in other games as will a noble with crown of command.

If I wanted to kill him (point of pride):
Arcane Unforging seems to be the key as if you remove his ward save he should fall fairly quickly to ranged weapons. T5, 3+ armour save isn't that thrilling if you pepper him with bolt throwers. If you remove this spells like Fate of Bjuna would be effective. So perhaps at roughly equal points to Karl Kranz (400 or so slaves)
Archmage: Death
Archmage: High
4x Bolt Throwers
Arcane Unforge his ward save that also has magic res, fate of Bjunu to remove on average 2 wounds a turn, mass bolt thrower in the face. Still somewhat useful in other games as you have two strong lores of magic and 4x bolt throwers.

What depresses me is Empire would just say a battle wizard lord on a pegasus with Van Horsemans.

[pk-ng]

@CaledorRises - you'll never get the SM to 3++. That's successfully casting 4 high spells. On average you would probably get 2 spells off and with some lucky maybe 3. Also costing 405 ss you can easily fit a Lvl 4 in a standard 2400 army. Even if you unforge his hammer and ward save yes he can kill a prince on the star dragon. 7S6 attacks is easy and it's happened to me before.
@Scarlet - I don't know how you are going to redirect a flying model?

[RE.Lee]

Well against my usual list (WL+PG blocks) he'g hardly be a threat as either unit ties him down indefinitely, I guess, thanks to the ward saves they get. Considering his cost, this should give me an advantage against the rest of the opponents army. Its highly unlikely I'll ever face him, though, so its all just theory.

On a more interesting note: I think he seems to be best against small units with multiple wounds - like monsters, monstrous cavalry/infantry. How ruined is a typical chaos net list against the dude? How will this impact the armies people are taking?

[vespacian1]

It's funny you should say that RE, I was just thinking the same thing. He's actually strongest against net lists(nurgle dp WoC, nurgle wall demons, dual IB ogres, black knight buses, any deathstar really)

Any time he can get multi wounds in he becomes an absolute beast. The most hilarious thing is that he's excellent against his own armies netlist, the double stank light coven. 2++ against banishment! kills stanks in one round roughly! Nasty!

[CaledorRises]

@pk-ng. Doesn't it depend on what spells you cast though? Teclis has Loremaster and a +6 to cast. That means that barring a 1 or 2, Drain Magic, Soul Quench, Apotheosis, Hand of Glory, and Walk Between Worlds can be attempted with 1 die. Assuming the average 7 dice magic phase, if you cast Hand of Glory with 1, Walk Between Worlds with 1, and Soul Quench with 1, you will then have 4 dice to cast Arcane Unforging. You can shift the dice around a little bit, but that's 4 spells quite easily. If you bring an extra mage, Teclis goes up to a +7 to cast, and then you can take the Book of Hoeth to make it incredibly likely that you will get all 4 spells off. Admittedly this is all theoretical, but it doesn't seem difficult to me.

Killing a Prince on Star Dragon once he has lost his hammer and ward seems highly unlikely to me. If you gave your Prince proper equipment, only half of Karl's attacks will hit due to the Prince's weapon skill, then a further half will be negated by ward saves. It is a simple Apotheosis back up to health then. Against the dragon he has an extremely low chance, because half of his attacks will hit, one third of those will wound, and then the dragon has a chance to armor save it. The dragon and prince combo on the other hand should deal out 4-5 wounds each round. That takes two rounds where the Prince and dragon both get to attack to kill Karl, and as the Prince strikes before Karl, unless Karl got really lucky in the first round, the Prince will be able to do both of his attack rounds, and then even if Karl focused everything on the dragon, he shouldn't be able to kill the dragon in 2 rounds. If Karl wins, it's because of luck. Statistically the Prince on Dragon will win. But I never said anything about Prince on Star Dragon. Karl Franz seems to me to be the monster bane. He is designed to bring down monsters and special characters. It's the plain infantry and cavalry that will kill him. Or really big guns and massed bolt throwers.

Also btw, Karl is 810 points, and if I understand you properly, you want to add in a level 4 at 405 points? If I am understanding you right, then you couldn't do that in 2400 points. That would be 1215 points on lords, and you are capped at 1200. If that's not what you meant, could you please elaborate?

[vespacian1]

@caledorRises

1.Why does having an extra Mage make teclis cast at +7?

2.Teclis can't take the book

3.On average, if you throw three one dice spells you'll fail one, possibly the first attempt.

4.And lastly, even if you successfully cast all three single dice spells, your opponent could easily dispel 1, probably 2.

Best case scenario, even with teclis I think you're at 3 spells successfully cast in a turn, more likely 2.

I get it's theory hammer, but you can also just purple sun him, now that's theory hammer.

[Tethlis]

I'm actually using Karl Franz in an End Times event a couple of weeks from now. It's not quite the same as a "competitive" game, but should still be an interesting experience.

[CaledorRises]

@vespacian1

1. Does Lileath's Blessing not stack? The rule says "Models with this special rule at +1 to all attempts to cast spells from the Lore of High Magic." Can you only get this once?

2. I said have another mage take the book.

3. That's why you have the book.

4. Wait, wait, have I been playing High Magic wrong this whole time? I thought you just had to cast the spell successfully to get the ward save? I thought it was like Life Magic where you just had to cast the spell to get the Lore Attribute, and if the enemy dispels it it doesn't matter.

[Dragon fire]

How about using the everqueen? She has HKB if she has high for the ward and arcane unforging, and combined with savage beast there is actually an ok chance to take him out directly... HKB for the win!

EDIT: HKB only Works against forces of destruction. So never mind

[Sackree]

Also btw, Karl is 810 points, and if I understand you properly, you want to add in a level 4 at 405 points? If I am understanding you right, then you couldn't do that in 2400 points. That would be 1215 points on lords, and you are capped at 1200. If that's not what you meant, could you please elaborate?

Your math is badly off. A lvl 4 Empire Wizard is 200 points. Even with max magic items that's only 300 points. Plenty of room for both. As for your original point just15 points less magic items on the lvl 4 then.

[Tullarion]

@vespacian1

1. Does Lileath's Blessing not stack? The rule says "Models with this special rule at +1 to all attempts to cast spells from the Lore of High Magic." Can you only get this once?

2. I said have another mage take the book.

3. That's why you have the book.

4. Wait, wait, have I been playing High Magic wrong this whole time? I thought you just had to cast the spell successfully to get the ward save? I thought it was like Life Magic where you just had to cast the spell to get the Lore Attribute, and if the enemy dispels it it doesn't matter.

Lileath's Blessing does not stack, as it is the model with that special rule that gains +1... not all models with that special rule gaining +1 per model with the special rule. A high archmage casts at +5, high Teclis at +6, regardless of who else is in the army... otherwise I would just spend all my hero points on level 1 mages, and after buying ten or so of them... they would all be unstoppably powerful.

And if you have been using lore attributes for spells that have been dispelled, then you have not only been using high magic incorrectly, you've been using all magic incorrectly. If someone has been scamming you, saying that they get the +1 wound from lifebloom when you dispel a spell attempt, it might be time to sweep the leg, Johnny.

How about using the everqueen? She has HKB if she has high for the ward and arcane unforging, and combined with savage beast there is actually an ok chance to take him out directly... HKB for the win!

Yes, the Everqueen does have HKB... against the forces of destruction, whom Karl does not belong to. Even if he did, though, one HKB attack does not a dead Franz make, even if he were unforged. Savage beast gives her a few more attacks, yes, but still not reliably enough. She has to hit him, and then roll a six, and he has to have no ward. That is a lot of points in one tactic, one that also relies on a specific run of spells in a specific order, and one which will be obvious to your opponent. If I were a flying monster, I wouldn't run myself right into the special character that has HKB, but that's just me. However, the entire tactic doesn't work, because of course, she doesn't have HKB against Karl... more like a light caress on the cheek.

I say the best tactic against Karl is a large unit of BotWD Lions backed up by a life archmage for regrowth... and then have the rest of the army route the rest of his army. Of course, you have to catch him, so reavers with champs, I guess.

[Dragon fire]

Some one on druchii net suggest the use of Sivjar's Hex Scroll...
That is interesting especially if you play with closed lists.
see http://druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75971

[Tullarion]

Too bad Karl's not a wizard.

[Tethlis]

Too bad Karl's not a wizard.

True. The wording for the Hex Scroll doesn't say that the initial target has to be wizard, but the description of the effects does specify "enemy wizard". I'd say the Hex Scroll, sadly, wouldn't apply to Karl.