Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

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Prince of Spires
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Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#1 Post by Prince of Spires »

The enemy of October is Dark Elves.

We are looking for any and all information you have on our dark brothers. What are their strong units? What are good combinations and items? What are strong lists? And, most important of all, how do we beat them.

A whole month to discuss and find out.

In your post, aside from information about Dark Elves, please also specify what kind of environment you play in. What comp do you play? What does your local meta look like? Do you play in tournament settings or just in your local shop? And how tough are the lists you regularly run into?
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#2 Post by HERO »

I have 15 posts or so on my blog talking about the Dark Elves from a DE perspective, including a full unit review:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/search/label/dark%20elves

The unit review can be found here:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/10/dark ... eview.html
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#3 Post by pk-ng »

The Peg List is very strong (obviously meta and comp dependent).
Essentially 4 Peg Riders and a Level 4 for magic defense / support.
The Peg are fast and very threatening ... also sporting at least 1+ or better.
Usual list are
Dreadlord on Peg - insert items of choice
Lvl 4 Lore of Choice - Ring of Hotek, Dispel Scroll
BSB on Peg - insert items of choice
Master on Peg - insert items of choice
Master on Peg - insert items of choice

Items of choice are
Cloak of Twilight
Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield
Dawnstone, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield
Armour of Destiny

Rest of the list will have at least 4 RBTs and anywhere from 4+ units of Fast Cav and 1 large unit of Flaming Darkshards.
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#4 Post by Senor »

Was fighting HE, with my new DE in a friendly 2400 game... and only realized that moment how powerfull the reroll failed panic/fear/terror tests are for the HE, against DE.

You should benefit from it to the fullest.
You can go bold with your units, like he did, taking them out of the BSB range... etc.
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#5 Post by Sackree »

Senor wrote:Was fighting HE, with my new DE in a friendly 2400 game... and only realized that moment how powerfull the reroll failed panic/fear/terror tests are for the HE, against DE.

You should benefit from it to the fullest.
You can go bold with your units, like he did, taking them out of the BSB range... etc.
My issue with this is that it doesn't include break tests, that would really allow us to push our army against dark elves
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#6 Post by Curu Olannon »

Ah, Dark Elves! The book that couldn`t get any worse... Yet it did! Almost, anyway.

The new Dark Elves are interesting because they are so polarized, yet flexible. It is impossible for them to match many of our aspects, for example the sheer brutality of the SD + Frostheart combined or the staying power and bunker-potential of either Silver Helms or White Lions. Instead, they are almost regardless of build forced into a build relying solely on speed and ranged power to win the day. In this department, they are the best army in Warhammer.

Let`s start with the usual suspects, i.e. units you will face in just about any environment unless they are comped:
- Dark Riders
- Masters on Dark Pegasus with 1+/4++
- Warlocks
- Reaper Bolt Throwers

These are all ridiculously powerful and versatile. Dark Riders are Ellyrian Reavers on steroids, they do everything we do - just better. Given how popular our fast cav are then it`s no surprise that these guys are ubiquitous in Dark Elf armies. Add to this the fact that Dark Elf characters can be fast cav if put on steeds and you have a recipe for disaster: You get a Dreadlord with 1+ re-roll, S7, TOTS, Murderous Prowess who can vanguard 12" in a big unit with fastcav... Dark Riders also work very well in small units, they will beat any other fast cav unit in Warhammer head-to-head, giving you an edge in terms of board control but more importantly, you are forcing enemy fast cav to play defensively, giving you an edge in actual board presence.

Masters on Dark Pegasus have everything we would wish our Nobles had: Strong armour save combined with a 4+ ward save and the ability to stay in units (with M2 on Great Eagles this is virtually impossible). With their added viability vs Skaven and Bretonnia, these are just such a great deal. Lastly, Warlocks implicitly mean that Dark Elves don`t need to spend hero points on mages, meaning you can load up on said Masters without sacrificing magical offense. These guys are very strong in pairs, so strong in fact that many High Elf units simply need to respect whatever they do. Small units will be downright decimated by their charge, bigger units can be tied up. Also, don`t forget that one can take the Cloak of Twilight as well, which is disastrous news for our otherwise-well protected characters. Taken in numbers, these guys provide the perfect counter-attack/pushing power needed for an otherwise defensive list.

Warlocks. I don`t even know where to begin. This is easily one of the very best units in Warhammer. Suffice is to say, if you`ve played them you know what I`m talking about. If you haven`t, they are basically fast cav wizards which can take on most of our units and expect to win in combat as well as sporting a 4++, near-immunity to miscasts, poison, ASF, Murderous Prowess... The sheer amount of powerful special rules seem to indicate that these guys should cost somewhere in the vicinity of an Eagle per model (and people would still take them!), but they`re half that. Go figure.

Reapers are like our Repeaters, of course with the difference being the context: Dark Elves are a lot better at building strong, shooty lists with lots of mobility, in this area the Reapers truly shine. Our Repeaters are very good at supporting offensive builds with board control and the same holds true for Dark Elves: A big advantage in this context is that their Reapers are special, thus they are not intruding on the rare points which you`d like to spend on Warlocks.

I think this is about it for a start, I`ll follow up later with a short note on how they typically play and finish up with some battle reports, lessons learned and my experience with them so far :)
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Peepster1976
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Re: Enemy of the month

#7 Post by Peepster1976 »

PLayed Dark elves yesterday. Second time every, both with their new army book. I have to say I find them very difficult to defeat!! Most Of their simmular units are better then ours. And those repeater hand/Xbow with their armour piercing are a pain for the cavalary. Let alone the huge amount of arrow they produce

Last time I won because I playe Fiercy Convocation on the big unit of witch elves, and that kind a slaughtered the unit, and won me the battle.
This time I used a list I got from this site, I thought is was a solid list.
Lord on star dragon, 2x 2nd lvl mage 1 steed.
2x noble on steed
15 silver helm, 2x5 reavers
10 archers
4 RBT
1 Fosty chicken.

The DE also had an dragon (T6) and 1 2nd lvl caster, and 5 warlocks, some magic wise, it was in ballance.
2 nobles, 1 in the cold one unit, one on a dark pegasus
2 RBT
5 cold rider
10 Xbow
20 corsairs
20 witch elves
1 chariot

with their amount of shooting the force a panic break on my silver helm bus with the nobles and mage, and their the went.... so BSB was gone.
I rallied, and later made the charge against the corsairs, only 11 left. Stand and shoot put some more damage on it. ANd I lost to the corsairs...... my big nice unit of Silver helms couldn't win from a core DE unit with no characters.......
Made an other mistake by charging my frosty in the unit of Witches..... if the thunder stomp fails they simple win/slow down combat..... So I got stuck and the dark pegasus noble charged in the flank and killed the frosty.

Both Dragons chased the chaff and the RBT.

Again with the armour piercing they are gonna kill our cavalary. I think the (only) way to go against (dark) elves is to take advantage of our 30" range....... shoot the b/w-itches! Magic is impotant also, so 4th lvl with BoH, enhance the BS, fiery convocation against big blocks of infantry.... and go........

My 2 cents

grtzzz

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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#8 Post by Francis »

Peepster1976 wrote: with their amount of shooting the force a panic break on my silver helm bus with the nobles and mage, and their the went.... so BSB was gone.
I might have misunderstood you there Peepster but as far as I know the BsB does not die when he/she flees as a result of a failed panic test. Only when he/she breaks from combat.
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#9 Post by Peepster1976 »

Francis wrote:
Peepster1976 wrote: with their amount of shooting the force a panic break on my silver helm bus with the nobles and mage, and their the went.... so BSB was gone.
I might have misunderstood you there Peepster but as far as I know the BsB does not die when he/she flees as a result of a failed panic test. Only when he/she breaks from combat.
Indeed it was after the panic test..hmmmm if thats the case!!! I'll check it again. thx!!
we also did use the -1 to hit because of multi shot...... big error!!!

so i'll have to play it again
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#10 Post by mcmulligan »

I've played a lot of matches against DE, since my main opponent has them as his only army. Also, in tournaments, I've faced numerous Dark Elf lists with all the usual suspects, lots of warlocks, lots of fast cav heroes, peg lords, witch elf hordes with and without a cauldron. I've never lost to DE at a tournament, and have only once scored less than a 20-0 victory against them.

Things I've learned:

1) PG are a must. They absolutely destroy everything in the DE list. The only units that give them any trouble at all are Cold One riders, which you almost never see anymore and can be mitigated with the AP banner on the PG which you should always have, and WEs with a cauldron. If supported with a frost phoenix, then absolutely no units give them trouble, including those cauldron sporting WEs.

2) Frost Phoenixes. The DE, much like us actually, have very few counters to a Frosty. Bolt Throwers don't do much, and even their monsters don't fair well against the higher WS, T and the -1S that the Frosty brings to the table. Also, paired with any of our infantry or cavalry, we keep our rerolls (which they'll only have one turn of thanks to hatred), get to strike first which is key in eliminating return attacks, and we defacto gain a point of toughness and armour save thanks to the -1 S.

3) High Magic. Actually counters DE fairly well. Fiery convocation can decimate units and help control their magic phase. Added ward saves on your units can help counter the clear advantage DE have in shooting. Walk between worlds can help counter their clear mobility advantage as well. Soul Quench is a powerful magic missile against lightly armoured T3 models. Drain Magic can counter the three most popular spell schools (life, death, shadow). Even Tempest has a use against them, as S3 pie plate is actually pretty good against those T3 troops with paper armour, and the -1 to hit in shooting or CC can tip the odds into our troops' favour.

4) Hide your WLs. Seriously. Every unit in the DE book is a counter to WL. All of their core, all of their special, even their shooting thanks to AP put the hurt on WLs.

5) Shoot warlocks. Mutli-shot from bolt throwers and bow fire will take them down. They're a threat in nearly every phase of the game, and you should treat them as such. Magic Missiles against these guys too. Kill them. KILL!
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#11 Post by Senor »

2) Frost Phoenixes. The DE, much like us actually, have very few counters to a Frosty. Bolt Throwers don't do much, and even their monsters don't fair well against the higher WS, T and the -1S that the Frosty brings to the table. Also, paired with any of our infantry or cavalry, we keep our rerolls (which they'll only have one turn of thanks to hatred), get to strike first which is key in eliminating return attacks, and we defacto gain a point of toughness and armour save thanks to the -1 S.
The DE strike on Iniative with -1S, due to ASF of HE and ASL rule of frosty. But ASF rule of DE is still there, despite of the ASF of the HE and the ASL rule of the Frosty. So could you please explain why HE still keep their rerolls?
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#12 Post by Curu Olannon »

Senor wrote:
2) Frost Phoenixes. The DE, much like us actually, have very few counters to a Frosty. Bolt Throwers don't do much, and even their monsters don't fair well against the higher WS, T and the -1S that the Frosty brings to the table. Also, paired with any of our infantry or cavalry, we keep our rerolls (which they'll only have one turn of thanks to hatred), get to strike first which is key in eliminating return attacks, and we defacto gain a point of toughness and armour save thanks to the -1 S.
The DE strike on Iniative with -1S, due to ASF of HE and ASL rule of frosty. But ASF rule of DE is still there, despite of the ASF of the HE and the ASL rule of the Frosty. So could you please explain why HE still keep their rerolls?
This has been discussed multiple times on this forum. Basically, some places play it as ASF is still around, whereas others play it as ASF and ASL cancel eachother out, thus ASF models get re-rolls to hit vs models with both ASF and ASL. The argument can be made both ways, in my experience playing ASF and ASL as cancelling eachother out is the most common ruling.
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#13 Post by f00ssa »

mcmulligan wrote:I've played a lot of matches against DE, since my main opponent has them as his only army. Also, in tournaments, I've faced numerous Dark Elf lists with all the usual suspects, lots of warlocks, lots of fast cav heroes, peg lords, witch elf hordes with and without a cauldron. I've never lost to DE at a tournament, and have only once scored less than a 20-0 victory against them.

Things I've learned:

1) PG are a must. They absolutely destroy everything in the DE list. The only units that give them any trouble at all are Cold One riders, which you almost never see anymore and can be mitigated with the AP banner on the PG which you should always have, and WEs with a cauldron. If supported with a frost phoenix, then absolutely no units give them trouble, including those cauldron sporting WEs.

2) Frost Phoenixes. The DE, much like us actually, have very few counters to a Frosty. Bolt Throwers don't do much, and even their monsters don't fair well against the higher WS, T and the -1S that the Frosty brings to the table. Also, paired with any of our infantry or cavalry, we keep our rerolls (which they'll only have one turn of thanks to hatred), get to strike first which is key in eliminating return attacks, and we defacto gain a point of toughness and armour save thanks to the -1 S.

3) High Magic. Actually counters DE fairly well. Fiery convocation can decimate units and help control their magic phase. Added ward saves on your units can help counter the clear advantage DE have in shooting. Walk between worlds can help counter their clear mobility advantage as well. Soul Quench is a powerful magic missile against lightly armoured T3 models. Drain Magic can counter the three most popular spell schools (life, death, shadow). Even Tempest has a use against them, as S3 pie plate is actually pretty good against those T3 troops with paper armour, and the -1 to hit in shooting or CC can tip the odds into our troops' favour.

4) Hide your WLs. Seriously. Every unit in the DE book is a counter to WL. All of their core, all of their special, even their shooting thanks to AP put the hurt on WLs.

5) Shoot warlocks. Mutli-shot from bolt throwers and bow fire will take them down. They're a threat in nearly every phase of the game, and you should treat them as such. Magic Missiles against these guys too. Kill them. KILL!

I played against 2 x DE at an ETC tournament at new years. In both matchups RBTs killed my frosty, the first player had 4 and the other 2, but that was enough.
My PG block got turned around and multicharged once by his characters and once by Warlocks. Both took them apart. At a different tournament the PG killed the Warlocks in combat, but at the cost of being killed by a Hydra in corner-contact.
I'm at best a medium-skilled player but it's not a sure matchup just because you have these models.
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#14 Post by mcmulligan »

f00ssa wrote:
mcmulligan wrote:I've played a lot of matches against DE, since my main opponent has them as his only army. Also, in tournaments, I've faced numerous Dark Elf lists with all the usual suspects, lots of warlocks, lots of fast cav heroes, peg lords, witch elf hordes with and without a cauldron. I've never lost to DE at a tournament, and have only once scored less than a 20-0 victory against them.

Things I've learned:

1) PG are a must. They absolutely destroy everything in the DE list. The only units that give them any trouble at all are Cold One riders, which you almost never see anymore and can be mitigated with the AP banner on the PG which you should always have, and WEs with a cauldron. If supported with a frost phoenix, then absolutely no units give them trouble, including those cauldron sporting WEs.

2) Frost Phoenixes. The DE, much like us actually, have very few counters to a Frosty. Bolt Throwers don't do much, and even their monsters don't fair well against the higher WS, T and the -1S that the Frosty brings to the table. Also, paired with any of our infantry or cavalry, we keep our rerolls (which they'll only have one turn of thanks to hatred), get to strike first which is key in eliminating return attacks, and we defacto gain a point of toughness and armour save thanks to the -1 S.

3) High Magic. Actually counters DE fairly well. Fiery convocation can decimate units and help control their magic phase. Added ward saves on your units can help counter the clear advantage DE have in shooting. Walk between worlds can help counter their clear mobility advantage as well. Soul Quench is a powerful magic missile against lightly armoured T3 models. Drain Magic can counter the three most popular spell schools (life, death, shadow). Even Tempest has a use against them, as S3 pie plate is actually pretty good against those T3 troops with paper armour, and the -1 to hit in shooting or CC can tip the odds into our troops' favour.

4) Hide your WLs. Seriously. Every unit in the DE book is a counter to WL. All of their core, all of their special, even their shooting thanks to AP put the hurt on WLs.

5) Shoot warlocks. Mutli-shot from bolt throwers and bow fire will take them down. They're a threat in nearly every phase of the game, and you should treat them as such. Magic Missiles against these guys too. Kill them. KILL!

I played against 2 x DE at an ETC tournament at new years. In both matchups RBTs killed my frosty, the first player had 4 and the other 2, but that was enough.
My PG block got turned around and multicharged once by his characters and once by Warlocks. Both took them apart. At a different tournament the PG killed the Warlocks in combat, but at the cost of being killed by a Hydra in corner-contact.
I'm at best a medium-skilled player but it's not a sure matchup just because you have these models.
Just to be clear, I was listing the best tools we have to combat DE, I never said they were an auto-win.

If you let your combat block be turned around, multicharged, or otherwise put into incredibly disadvantaged situations, you should expect to lose.

To the bolt throwers taking out your frosty, that's just plain bad luck. FYI, statistically, a single bolt from a bolt thrower at short range only does 0.45 wounds per shot (slightly less at long range), and even that guy that had 4 of them would have statistically needed 4 rounds of unimpeded shooting to kill your bird. That's not to say it can't happen, but its improbable at best.

I would also wonder how you lost to characters, warlocks, even supported by a hydra, as you should have the models to remain steadfast until help can arrive. Unless you had that unit completely unsupported and/or failed a LD 9 test (certainly possible, I've failed my share to be sure). Either way, bad planning and/or bad luck don't negate the value of the PG against DE.
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#15 Post by afterglow82 »

Any advice on facing a large unit of witch elves with a cauldron? 4 poisoned attacks per model is fairly intense, and whilst my instinct would be to shoot the hell out of them from turn one, i feel like i'm going to have to concentrate fire on his missile troops (and warlocks) to avoid losing control of the game too early
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#16 Post by Sackree »

In combat, silverhelms, phoenix guard and dragon princes are the only units that will not be obliterated, phoenix guard are going to do huge most damage back and are probably more survivable, especially if you boost the ward save. Couple this with a frost phoenix charging a flank to limit attacks to him, turn them to s2 and allow the phoenix guard to gain rerolls as the witches ASF is cancelled.

Outside of combat is always the best bet though, they will die in droves to all our shooting, even massed archer fire. Spells like net of amyntok, flame cage and curse of anraheir will also slow them down otherwise they risk huge casualties due to being t3.

Lore of light is a very good lore against dark elves as it gives you 2 magic missiles for board control, ks that you can shoot at other units when focus firing your shooting phase on the witches, and a lot of bubble spells that really help us out. Banishment is great against warlocks, 2d6 s4 hits rerolling ward saves! Pha's protects us well against their massed shooting and net slows down their combat blocks.
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#17 Post by afterglow82 »

Sackree wrote:In combat, silverhelms, phoenix guard and dragon princes are the only units that will not be obliterated, phoenix guard are going to do huge most damage back and are probably more survivable, especially if you boost the ward save. Couple this with a frost phoenix charging a flank to limit attacks to him, turn them to s2 and allow the phoenix guard to gain rerolls as the witches ASF is cancelled.

Outside of combat is always the best bet though, they will die in droves to all our shooting, even massed archer fire. Spells like net of amyntok, flame cage and curse of anraheir will also slow them down otherwise they risk huge casualties due to being t3.

Lore of light is a very good lore against dark elves as it gives you 2 magic missiles for board control, ks that you can shoot at other units when focus firing your shooting phase on the witches, and a lot of bubble spells that really help us out. Banishment is great against warlocks, 2d6 s4 hits rerolling ward saves! Pha's protects us well against their massed shooting and net slows down their combat blocks.
great advice thanks! I have a decent size block (30) of PG so far, but im adding another 10 soon. I have 2 phoenixes too, not sure whether to add another or not (it's a big battle we're planning :P )

I had been focusing more on Life, High, and possibly death, but I can squeeze in a lvl 2 light, and give alarielle a couple from light as well ;)
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#18 Post by mcmulligan »

Something to keep in mind when fighting the witches.

They are frenzied, so its a bit easier to get the combat you want. If you are going for the PG + frosty combo (in my opinion one of the best ways to combat them), then you'll need to make sure you get both of those units in at the same time. With only one of them getting in, it will lose on its own.

To help ensure this, a sacrificial eagle or unit of reavers in front of the Witches should work. Let them get wiped out and have the witches overrun into the PG. The witches HAVE to overrun thanks to their frenzy. As long as you don't let any other unit in contact with the PG, that combat will happen on your turn, allowing you to charge the Frosty in as well.

Because you'll be swinging first, assuming 7x3 formation, you'll get 21 attacks, hitting on 3s with a reroll, wounding on 3s, and only being saved on the 5++ they get from the cauldron. That SHOULD net you 9 wounds statistically. The WE will get 6 and the cauldron (which is at least 2 other witches) models back in contact assuming they're horde formation. They'll be hitting on 4s, with a reroll, with 4 attacks each in the front, and 12 attacks from the supporting ranks. That should net him 6 poisons and 13 other wounds, which is 6 wounds after your saves (assuming he doesn't have AP, otherwise he'll do more, and of course depending on the load out of anything riding the cauldron beyond the 2 witches). You'll then also have the frost phoenix and his attacks and stomp, which will net on average another 5 wounds. That solidly gives you the win (numbers change a bit depending on attacks going to the phoenix instead of the PG, and as noted on the cauldron load out) at 14-6.

Assuming you started the combat against a "counts as" unit of 40 witches, which is really a cauldron and 30 (ish) witches, he'll be down to 15ish witches and the cauldron, which is 2 full ranks, and you've still got 15ish PG, which is also 2 full ranks, negating his steadfast. He should be testing on snake eyes. And if he fails, and runs, the cauldron automatically dies if it was the bsb, if not, you have a swiftstride frosty to try and catch them. Either way, they'll lose their frenzy in subsequent turns.
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#19 Post by pk-ng »

fiery convocation! burn baby burn!
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#20 Post by NexS »

mcmulligan wrote: 2) Frost Phoenixes. The DE, much like us actually, have very few counters to a Frosty. Bolt Throwers don't do much, and even their monsters don't fair well against the higher WS, T and the -1S that the Frosty brings to the table. Also, paired with any of our infantry or cavalry, we keep our rerolls (which they'll only have one turn of thanks to hatred), get to strike first which is key in eliminating return attacks, and we defacto gain a point of toughness and armour save thanks to the -1 S.
I have to disagree with this here. As the frost phoenix bestows "Always Strikes Last", it doesn't remove "Always Strikes First", so Dark Elves are the only ones with re-rolls :(

Still, The frost Phoenix is a game-changing monster and really make our squishy T3 a little more hardy :)
Regards,
Brad
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#21 Post by pk-ng »

NexS wrote:
mcmulligan wrote: 2) Frost Phoenixes. The DE, much like us actually, have very few counters to a Frosty. Bolt Throwers don't do much, and even their monsters don't fair well against the higher WS, T and the -1S that the Frosty brings to the table. Also, paired with any of our infantry or cavalry, we keep our rerolls (which they'll only have one turn of thanks to hatred), get to strike first which is key in eliminating return attacks, and we defacto gain a point of toughness and armour save thanks to the -1 S.
I have to disagree with this here. As the frost phoenix bestows "Always Strikes Last", it doesn't remove "Always Strikes First", so Dark Elves are the only ones with re-rolls :(

Still, The frost Phoenix is a game-changing monster and really make our squishy T3 a little more hardy :)
i disagree with your disagree.
no clear answer to ASL+ASF vs ASF. can argue either way.
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#22 Post by NexS »

Let's see if we can get an FAQ...
Sorry, too busy FAQing brand new books :P

If i take it as RAW, you only get re-rolls if you have ASF and your opponent does not. So I play it this way to keep fair and argument free
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#23 Post by afterglow82 »

mcmulligan wrote:Something to keep in mind when fighting the witches.

They are frenzied, so its a bit easier to get the combat you want. If you are going for the PG + frosty combo (in my opinion one of the best ways to combat them), then you'll need to make sure you get both of those units in at the same time. With only one of them getting in, it will lose on its own.

To help ensure this, a sacrificial eagle or unit of reavers in front of the Witches should work. Let them get wiped out and have the witches overrun into the PG. The witches HAVE to overrun thanks to their frenzy. As long as you don't let any other unit in contact with the PG, that combat will happen on your turn, allowing you to charge the Frosty in as well.

Because you'll be swinging first, assuming 7x3 formation, you'll get 21 attacks, hitting on 3s with a reroll, wounding on 3s, and only being saved on the 5++ they get from the cauldron. That SHOULD net you 9 wounds statistically. The WE will get 6 and the cauldron (which is at least 2 other witches) models back in contact assuming they're horde formation. They'll be hitting on 4s, with a reroll, with 4 attacks each in the front, and 12 attacks from the supporting ranks. That should net him 6 poisons and 13 other wounds, which is 6 wounds after your saves (assuming he doesn't have AP, otherwise he'll do more, and of course depending on the load out of anything riding the cauldron beyond the 2 witches). You'll then also have the frost phoenix and his attacks and stomp, which will net on average another 5 wounds. That solidly gives you the win (numbers change a bit depending on attacks going to the phoenix instead of the PG, and as noted on the cauldron load out) at 14-6.

Assuming you started the combat against a "counts as" unit of 40 witches, which is really a cauldron and 30 (ish) witches, he'll be down to 15ish witches and the cauldron, which is 2 full ranks, and you've still got 15ish PG, which is also 2 full ranks, negating his steadfast. He should be testing on snake eyes. And if he fails, and runs, the cauldron automatically dies if it was the bsb, if not, you have a swiftstride frosty to try and catch them. Either way, they'll lose their frenzy in subsequent turns.
Thanks for that advice! very detailed, definitely what i'll try.

Couple of questions though - I have a bigger unit (30 at the moment but im planning on another box for 40), so should I go for a wider frontage go get in more attacks, or would the high number of return attacks from the witch elves offset my advantage?

Also, you said "hitting on 3's with a re-roll" - is this based around the fact that the phoenix gives ASL? Because I'm not aware of any other way in which I'd get re-rolls - but I'd love to be wrong! If it is this, we play that ASL negates the effect of ASF, but as they still have the rule, the opposing player hits first but doesn't get re-rolls
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#24 Post by mcmulligan »

This has been argued many times (even in this thread higher up).

MOST people play that ASF and ASL cancel each other out and they therefor count as having neither, which allows other ASF troops re-rolls on them if they have equal or higher initiative.

Some people state that they still have the ASF rule, and therefor, even though they are no longer striking first and instead striking at initiative, you shouldn't get re-rolls due to the presence of the rule.

Its something that you'll need clarified ahead of a game/tournament. In my area, everyone plays that the rerolls are given (since in practicality, they are not striking first, so even if there is printed text in the army book saying they have a rule that grants ASF, they are not utilizing that rule because another rule has nullified its in-game effect).

To the size of the PG unit, I normally field them between 25-30 strong (a PG star would be between 35-40). Against WE if you have the Frosty in the combat as well, maximizing your frontage will increase more casualties to the WE than you will get in return (plus you could even be killing enough witches to reduce the amount of attacks coming back). You have to plan on having some casualties before they reach that combat, although not many since they are so durable. 7 wide seems to be a nice balance between the durability of 5 wide (and then deep) and the killing power of 10 wide (but shallow).
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#25 Post by Prince of Spires »

This has been discussed many times over, most recently in ASF vs ASL+ASF, Do I get re-rolls?. If you want to discuss the rule, I suggest taking it to that thread.

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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#26 Post by afterglow82 »

Prince of Spires wrote:This has been discussed many times over, most recently in ASF vs ASL+ASF, Do I get re-rolls?. If you want to discuss the rule, I suggest taking it to that thread.

Rod
thanks :)

I was aware of the discussion, in fact my opponent and I have agreed on the 'no re-rolls' rule - I was just hoping there was some other way I didn't know about where I might get re-rolls!
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#27 Post by Curu Olannon »

Following up on the last post...

Dark Elves typically play an avoidance style with counter-attack options that have striking power we can only dream of. It's not that their characters are that much more powerful offensively than ours, in fact we hold an edge in certain areas with things like the Star Dragon and the Star Lance, but the rest of their army allows them to field pegriders without giving up utility in other places. Furthermore the small piece of equipment called Sea Dragon Cloak and the fact that Pegs are M8 ground movement means that they are capable of configuring them flexibly, easily. Lastly, murderous prowess makes them more reliable.

Warlocks enable Dark Elves to get by with a single wizard, typically an L4 Death/Shadow/Dark Sorceress with Hotek and a Scroll. In the same way BOTWD reduces our miscast vulnerability, the Warlocks' casting means the L4 suffers less. Furthermore it provides the army with flexibility and reliability: I've basically come to accept the fact that when I face DE, I will always have Soulblight on one of my units, at least once, per turn.

Taken together, the army sports tons of shooting, strong magic, lots of mobility and powerful counter-attacks/counter-pushers.

What they do struggle with is things that are too tough to handle, things that can handle their characters and things that do the ranged game better than them. We can do all of the above, to a certain extent, but not all at once. Thus, popular High Elf builds might be strong against DE, or they might have some glaring weaknesses.

Things that are too tough to handle basically boil down to big units of WL/PG and cavstars. In the absence of Death and arguably Shadow, the Star Dragon is hard (but far from impossible!) for them to handle as well. Things that can handle their characters are static combat resolution, PG (these are very hard for DE to deal with if they cannot focus fire on them), High Magic and to a certain extent RBTs, as well as our monsters: the Star Dragon and the Frostheart. As for outgunning them, there are multiple ways of doing this: Teclis, Light Covens, Shadow-shooting and possibly some other variations.

I'd like to conclude with some reports that I think illustrate the essence of what the Dark Elf army is all about, while also highlighting their weaknesses:

Too weak units leaving High Elves unable to push, having to stand still and weather their firepower for 6 turns was a true pain: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 36#p877736

Forgetting to protect my backfield leaves the Dark Elves free to claim tons of units:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 04#p889504

Star Dragon pushing through and devastating the Dark Elves' backfield, only to suffer at the hands of Cloak and the Dreadlord:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 44#p887944

A gamble to break the Dark Elf core turns hairy, PG try their best to save the day:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 46#p884046
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#28 Post by pk-ng »

Curu Olannon wrote: Things that are too tough to handle basically boil down to big units of WL/PG and cavstars. In the absence of Death and arguably Shadow, the Star Dragon is hard (but far from impossible!) for them to handle as well. Things that can handle their characters are static combat resolution, PG (these are very hard for DE to deal with if they cannot focus fire on them), High Magic and to a certain extent RBTs, as well as our monsters: the Star Dragon and the Frostheart. As for outgunning them, there are multiple ways of doing this: Teclis, Light Covens, Shadow-shooting and possibly some other variations.
I don't think this no longer holds true (some parts). Traditionally DE list is pretty much the flying circus (mass peg riders) but lately I've seen an evolution of DE list that counters the WL / PG (not 100% sure on the cavstar) list (under ETC comp at least).
Essentially the core of the list is
Large Witch Elves
Large unit of Sisters with Bloodrack Shrine.
Maybe another combat block depending on preference
Support elements.
I see no way for PG / WL list to beat this list. Obviously I've yet to play against this list but it looks like a hard counter to the PG / WL.
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#29 Post by mcmulligan »

I've played a similar list (no sisters however).

PG still counter each of those units, WLs are a bad matchup against pretty much anything in the DE list unfortunately.

Its important that the sisters only get their bonus if your base strength is >4, so the PG don't activate that bonus (their base strength is only 3, even though with halberds they strike at S4).

Frostheart supporting PG, or even a decent sized group of archers are pretty strong against WE or sisters (IF you play that we keep our re-rolls). Silverhelms are decent as well, since their armour should hold up, especially if you get into a flank.

The good thing about combat blocks is they create nice targets for Fiery Convocation, and more importantly, Dwellers. Witches and sisters HATE dwellers.
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Re: Enemy of the month: Dark Elves

#30 Post by Curu Olannon »

Witchelves will murder anything in our list that isn't mounted or a monster, easily. They are incredibly strong vs normal elves, be it WL, PG, SM or core infantry. Looking ahead though, I think it's too early to say what the DE lists will look like as the meta will evolve tons. The peg-avoidance list is still by far the best under the current meta - while Witchelves are strong in certain matchups they are super-weak in others.

Give it a couple of months and everything will be different, regardless. Luckily, we benefit more from this than DE does.
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