HeroHammer Lores

[Ferny]

Lore choice is obviously going to be highly dependent on your build, but are there any principles which suggest a change in their rankings with the likely meta changes of the FAQ?

For example, is Death going to be go-to with so many characters and monsters? Or, for similar reasons, Shadow? Or Beasts, to take advantage of all our combat Princes/heroes?

Personally, I reckon this puts High in a very strong spot again, largely down to Arcane Unforging (but also Apotheosis). I could imagine High + Death really causing headaches for dispel priority, though it is a lot of points in magic - too many if we expect flyers galore?

[Curu Olannon]

Which new Herohammer-elements do you reckon Death would be good against? I think Light is one of the biggest candidates in this meta.

[SpellArcher]

Life looks strong vs mega-buses and for buffing your own but does little to counter enemy monster lords.

[Curu Olannon]

In what builds does Life not help out vs enemy monster lords?

[SpellArcher]

It does but not with what I might call 'heavy board control'.

Say the enemy has a star dragon. Beasts can inhibit it's movement with Amber Spear. Mindrazor makes it more wary of charging stuff. Banishment is another thing it has to be wary of. With Life you don't get this restriction on movement, so much. I guess if you only have the bus, then Life can buff it up to make it an unattractive target. Or you might try the 1-in-6 of Dwellers.

[Curu Olannon]

That, I agree with 100%. However the Star Dragon typically relies on support and that support usually comes in the shape of a bus. The bus in question is weak vs Dwellers and pretty much doesn't care too much about Death or Light (Net can be a pain, true), but Arcane Unforging is very dangerous as well.

Life however poses a threat to the Star Dragon implicitly. It of course depends on the rest of your build, but with earthblood up and running the Dragon's looking at a Prince with a 5+/5+/5+ (or 4+ for the last roll), coupled with Lifebloom in the ensuing round of combat he could quickly find himself in big trouble. It's not super-reliable, but iffy enough for the Star Dragon to think twice before diving in alone. On average, the big beast does 3 hits, a little less than 3W, but with 5+ on three rolls you're unlikely to take more than a wound per phase. With Lifebloom and possible T7 from Flesh to Stone, grinding down the SD is suddenly possible for our standard cavprince. Add to this the fact that Dwellers is a huge threat for his bus and I think Life suddenly looks like a fairly decent lore here, doubly so when considering how strong it is vs other things out there (basically everything human and/or elven not mounted on a high-S steed of some sort).

[SpellArcher]

Yeah it's all about the build isn't it? I picked Star Dragon because RBT's don't control it as much as they might a Daemon Prince or a unit of Demigryphs for example. But there will likely be a bus. Is Phoenix-spam instead an issue?

[Curu Olannon]

Phoenix spam largely don't concern us for 2 reasons: One, BOTWD. True, we struggle to hurt them at a distance (in the absence of a Light Coven, anyway), but they can't hurt our bunker. With their insane statlines, Frosthearts can tear apart most of the rest of our forces that aren't protected by said banner, BUT. Two: Combat resolution. A frostheart charging a typical combat unit that isn't infantry will likely lose. With just 4 attacks, the Frostheart will never overcome 3 ranks, banner and musician, let alone 3 ranks, banner, musician, bsb, possibly a wound in return and fluffing 2 attacks. The Thunderstomp is this guy's saving grace but it only helps vs certain enemies.

I don't expect phoenix spam to be a big problem. They simply don't have the power. As a support unit, the Frostheart's awesome in an offensive list. Dual Frosthearts might even be worthwhile for the added durability, but beyond this I feel it's diminishing returns.

Multiple Flamespyres would be more of a concern, especially for infantry lists (you don't get Lion Cloaks vs Wake of Fire...), but this is in itself a wacky build that I struggle to see how would play in a character heavy meta so I don't expect it to be that common.

[mcmulligan]

I would expect Life, High, and Shadow to be our go-to lores. Those that used Death before will probably get the same mileage from it going forward (personally it's never been one of my favoured lores).

I don't think any spell school has a great answer to HeroHammer by itself, especially with all the combined profiles coming out with each new book. Death probably has the best stand-alone answers in its snipes, and maybe metal if your opponent forgets his 2++ vs flaming attacks. But I think our best answer will be buffing our own troops/characters and/or hexing the enemy models. Hence Life, High and Shadow.

[Curu Olannon]

I don't understand why you don't rate Light more in this expected meta. VC and WoC are arguably among the ones getting the most out of a change like this and other super-lords also fear Banishment massively once it gets properly pumped up (S7+).

[mcmulligan]

My only issue with light is the size of the investment required to realize its potential.

For Empire, who get much easier access to high strength (and double) banishment, I would rate it very highly.

For us, short of taking Teclis, I would personally value a combo of high/life or shadow/high on the standard lvl4/lvl 2 combo.

But really, it all comes down to what list is being put down for the magic to support.

I think our cav-bus is likely our strongest build in the new world, and it benefits more strongly from the lores I listed.

For a more defensive list, light and/or beasts might be more viable (curse and spear work best from a defensive strategy)

[Curu Olannon]

Empire does not have BOTWD-protection for their mages, nor said protection for Forbidden Rod for example. Also, what you value more is based on the former meta, not the 50% allowance meta.

I think defensive HE can still work. Not sure how the list should look like, exactly, but with Teclis it should at least be doable!

[mcmulligan]

I absolutely agree that Teclis makes it doable, which I included in my comment.

Without him, you'd need to invest around 600-700 points in mages to get light up to a state where your S6 banishment is threatening. Closer to 900 points for S7. Personally, I usually don't feel that comfortable putting that many points towards magic.

[Curu Olannon]

L4 with power stone = 240
L1 scroll = 110
L1 = 85
L1 = 85
Total = 520 point investment for S7 Banishment. Not too bad if the meta evolves to everyone and their mother running around with monster lords

[mcmulligan]

L4 with power stone = 240
L1 scroll = 110
L1 = 85
L1 = 85
Total = 520 point investment for S7 Banishment. Not too bad if the meta evolves to everyone and their mother running around with monster lords

That's an awfully bare bones setup, with no book, no scroll, no forbidden rod, etc. But yes, you can field it on the cheap.

I would personally prefer Teclis (with banishment ) and a level 1 light with a scroll, and a second level 1 to get the banishment up to S6, not that much more points and despite the slightly weaker banishment, much more versatile.